Bore Measurements

[newton]

I am trying to work up a good load for an inline I have. Here in Arkansas we are allowed optics. So I want a real good shooting load for my gun. However, I want to stay away from sabots. It's just that seeing how I have all the equipment to cast with its senseless to buy boolits. And I know I can just buy the plastic part, but I still want to stay away. I want to take full advantage of the .50 caliber diameter.

So I tried some REAL's and while they will shoot great at short distances, I have come to the conclusion that they are too short for the twist I have - 1:28. So I'm looking into something a little longer. I am probably going to go down the road idahoron has and do a 500 S&W paper patched. I also thought about knurling it, but am thinking now paper patch is probably what I'll do.

So, with that thought on my head I figured I should slug the bore to see what my measurements are. The measurements I came up with after doing it a few time over are .499-.500 land to land, and .510-.511 groove to groove.

This made me wonder how this is going to work exactly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are pretty deep grooves. And so it made me wonder if it's too much for paper. Or does paper like deep grooves? Are their any other thoughts on using a full size conical? I know lee offers a .515 boolit for the 50-70 cal shooters. I wonder if I could take one and size them down a little, if they don't drop small anyways using pure lead.

I'm just looking for advice here. If the paper patch will work with a .501-.503 boolit and two wraps of paper I'm all game. Or is that what I do want? My only experience is with sabots and the REAL's. The REAL's, when pushed in and then plopped back out, engrave to full groove size. Do I not want this with a paper patch? Is the boolit only being .001 over bore(land to land) going to be enough to hold it?

Fill me in here please. New to it and am having trouble getting the paper patch thing straight in my mind. Thanks.

[izzyjoe]

i bought a 250gr. real mold awhile back, and i cast up a 100. i noticed that some of them did'nt fill out at the top band. so i mic'ed them and they were smaller, so i think you may have a problem with fillout.

[Boerrancher]

Newton,

The problem you are going to have is that the barrels of inlines are designed to shoot sabots, as you discovered with the deep groves. The plastic of the sabot compresses upon ignition of the powder charge causing it to fill the grooves of the bore. I think you would be better off if you were to purchase a bag of 50 cal sabots and load some cast 45 LC boolits in them. In order for the .515 boolit to work you would have to size it down to .499 to .500 and then hope that you can cast it soft enough to obturate enough to fill the grooves. I think the only way you will make that happen is with a hollow base mold, and then accuracy will most likely be mediocre at best. You can give it a try, but don't be disappointed if it doesn't work well.

Best wishes,

Joe

[smoked turkey]

Newton, I go along with Joe on this. I fully understand that you want to use conical boolits. I also try to do this in my muzzleloaders which include both inlines and traditional cap and flint lock designs. I don't have the experience others here have so you might get some other opinions on this. I keep my shots to within 60 yards and seem to do ok with three whitetail kills with holy black. But when long range shots are desired, I'm afraid you will be fighting against the inherent nature of the inline by using conicals. Short range shots are indeed possible as I said with full bore boolits. But I think for long range accuracy you will acheive better results with the sabot approach. Just my two cents.

[725]

Boerrancher is right. 1:28 is a conical shooter and it's made for the sabots. Search for sabots and cast which ever boolit goes with that sabot. They different combos. 45 LC boolits, .44's, .458's, and probably others, too.

[wgr]

i shoot cast 300 grain .45colt boolits in my 1:28 with sabots. they will shoot into 3/4 in at 100yards. i also shoot the lyman great plains boolit

[newton]

Thanks for the advice guys. I really would just use sabots, but I have set my teeth against them. lol. I get that the gun was made for them, but I have seen the full blown proof of what paper patching will do in this kind of gun. idahoron has a full write up of it.

I just am having trouble trying to figure out how it all works. If I want to size them, like he does, to .501"(paper and boolit). Or do I just want to size the boolit and then wrap it and not size afterwards.

The dilemma is that I know what my bore slugs at and land to land is .499-.500. That would mean that a .501 sized boolit, paper and all, would have .0005" of 'compression' against it if the bore is .500, and .001" of 'compression' if the bore is .499".

I assume this is enough to 'hold' the boolit in place on top of the charge, and then if the boolit is made of soft lead it will bump up to fill the grooves when fired. I would just mic a boolit and sabot combo I have used in the past with good success, but its hard to mic one with the petals and all.

Otherwise, I would just size the boolit and then wrap it and not size again. That would make the diameter around .511, if the paper is .0025". So I guess that kind of answers my question. A .511 boolit would have to be hammered into the barrel I would imagine. That would be 'full bore contact' all the way down.

I am just not sure with the whole paper patch thing. I think I need to just study it more. I know it can be done.

I think the whole reason why sabots work in the 1:28 is because of the twist rate/projectile length/mass. I know calculations are just calculations, but the JBM stability calculator gives some pretty interesting results when you input certain things. And they are right inline with why the REAL will not work(too short), and why the sabot will work. And it also is right in line with why a paper patched boolit will work, like it does for idahoron.

I guess from here on out its just a matter of experimentation.

[johnson1942]

if you can find a reasonablely priced machinest make a starter to fit over the barrel. get a .500 grain .512 mould and cast in pure lead. shoot 80 grains behind this with a fiber wad in between. it will shoot holes in holes. my sons does.

[newton]

if you can find a reasonablely priced machinest make a starter to fit over the barrel. get a .500 grain .512 mould and cast in pure lead. shoot 80 grains behind this with a fiber wad in between. it will shoot holes in holes. my sons does.

Explain the starter please. I have a false muzzle that is built into the CVA. I forget the exact measurements, but I know that the 320 grain REAL just slips right into it, then I press it down into the bore and start the engraving.

Is there a specific mold you are referring to also? Is it a 500 grain, or .500 diameter - .512 actual?

Lee offers a 515-500-F, I assume it would drop a .515, but I wonder if this is the mold you are referring to?

I had contemplated this, but just was not sure how hard it would be to get down the barrel. Of course, once started, I guess it would go down relatively easy.

Interesting. Would like to hear more on this.

[725]

I think you have a counter-bored muzzle that was designed to facilitate loading. A false muzzle is a separate bore sized fixture that fits at the bore when loading. (Old school stuff to protect taget rifle muzzles.) I wonder just how hard it would be to load an over-bore boolit into your rifle? First shot would be tough and subsequent shots would be awful. Have you tried a T/C style maxi-ball? I've had very good success with those. Variables would be the usual - lube choices, bare boolit against the powder, felt wad (lubed or unlubed) between the boolit and powder. If I'm mistaken and you do have a false muzzle, I'd love to hear about the x paper patches or cloth x patches you use. We don't have alot of guys around here using those.
ps- Never had luck with the maxi-hunters.

[waksupi]

False muzzles were not to protect the barrel crown.

[newton]

Yes, I was incorrect with my statement. It is simply counter bored to the groove depth. Which, if I would have just thought about it, means it is .510-.511. I will have to slug again.

I have not tried anything but sabots and REAL's. I did shoot some round balls through it, but I never expected anything from them. Even thought the round balls shoot nice groups at 50 yards.

I am not against the paper patch thing. But there are sometimes I like to go the road less traveled. If I sized the 50-70 boolits down to .510, which I believe would be easy enough, that would mean I would just have to be engraving the lands because .510 is my groove to grove diameter.

500 grains is a BIG boolit though. Lol. I thought I hurt from shooting my .54 this weekend with 435 grain maxi hunters. A 500 grain with anything over 80 grains would be a hoss. I think in the end I will go with the paper patched, sized in at around .501. It should be about like shooting a maxi. I have heard everyone give awesome reviews of the .50 cal maxi that they stopped making. I guess I could just keep an eye out for one.

I'm in no hurry right now though. I have my .54 shooting REAL good right now and am just going to use it this season. I'll work up a home brew for the .50 this winter and use it next year.

[Gray Fox]

My brother has a Traditions .50 in-lne and he had the same goal as yours He had gotten fine accuracy with both the Hornady 250 grain jacketed bullet and my cast Lee 250 RNFP in sabots. But, he still wanted to find a full bore cast boolet that would work. We tried two things, the last of which worked. We first tried the Lee .50 cal improved Mine' but it was way too tight of a fit.

About this time I bought a .50 cal Lyman Deerstalker flinter from a guy here on the site and with the deal I got a .50 TC 370 grain Maxi-Ball mold. I cast up a bunch of them and we both went to the range with our rifles. Both guns shot clover leafs at 25 yards and hit golf ball sized rocks on the back bank of the range at about 80 yards. This was with 80 grains of Pyrodex RS in his and 80 of ffg in mine. At the ranges we usually find deer here in GA both rifles should do fine this fall. Hope this helps. GF

[frnkeore]

My suggestion is to fine a mold that cast a bullet .500/.501, maxi or that 500 Smith or anything you want in that size. Then have a machinist or a machine shop open the base band to .001 over your groove diameter. It will then load pretty easy and still seal the bore and shoot well.

Frank

[newton]

My brother has a Traditions .50 in-lne and he had the same goal as yours He had gotten fine accuracy with both the Hornady 250 grain jacketed bullet and my cast Lee 250 RNFP in sabots. But, he still wanted to find a full bore cast boolet that would work. We tried two things, the last of which worked. We first tried the Lee .50 cal improved Mine' but it was way too tight of a fit.

About this time I bought a .50 cal Lyman Deerstalker flinter from a guy here on the site and with the deal I got a .50 TC 370 grain Maxi-Ball mold. I cast up a bunch of them and we both went to the range with our rifles. Both guns shot clover leafs at 25 yards and hit golf ball sized rocks on the back bank of the range at about 80 yards. This was with 80 grains of Pyrodex RS in his and 80 of ffg in mine. At the ranges we usually find deer here in GA both rifles should do fine this fall. Hope this helps. GF

It does help. But I would love if you got a measurement of that boolit. I bet it's about the right length for the rifles. I think that length is what I ran into and need to overcome. I wish I could find a maxi ball or maxi hunter mold for the .50 cal. I'm keeping my eyes open.

[newton]

My suggestion is to fine a mold that cast a bullet .500/.501, maxi or that 500 Smith or anything you want in that size. Then have a machinist or a machine shop open the base band to .001 over your groove diameter. It will then load pretty easy and still seal the bore and shoot well.

Frank

Yea, I wish I had the money. Honestly, if I had the money I would get Lee to do a custom mold based on their REAL design. I am almost 100% positive that if that 320 grain boolit was .25" longer it would be an amazing shooter.

[newton]

.010-.012"/2 is NOT deep grooves for a MLer. That's only .005-.006" per groove, and way less than most of my roundball guns.

If you're going to paperpatch, you'll have to be really close to BORE diameter. If its not snug enough it can move, and if its too tight it won't load without tearing the paper. Cast 'em soft and the BP will bump 'em up to groove diameter. You may want to use and over powder card wad under the boolit. In cartridge rifles there were a couple of theories regarding paper patched. One was to seat most of the boolit in the case, and patched to or near grrove diameter. the other was to use a tapered paper patched boolit with only 1/8" or so in the case and the rest was out in the bore, so smaller than bore diameter.

An original NY State Militia 50-70 I had was rifled 1-42", IIRC. I checked a Husqvarna RB in their 12mm (close to 50-70) and it was even slower, and both were designed to shoot conicals. 1-28" should be more flexible in regard to boolit weight, length, and velocity.

50cal Maxi molds show up all the time on ebay.

Thanks for the info. You would think the 1:28 would be more flexible, but I do not think it is unless you reach a certain length. I know that length is not the only number in the equation to deal with, but I really believe it plays a major role.

I really want to save paper patching as the last resort. Not that I have any thing against it, I simply just want to find a bore sized slug that works well.

I am keeping an eye out on ebay, but it seems people are a lot more wealthier than I when it comes to bidding. I see simple Lee molds going for twice what I can buy them brand new and have shipped to me from midsouth.

That is also why I am leaning more toward a boolit mold than a maxi style. That way, if for some reason it does not work, I am not out that much.

I would love it if someone had specifics on the maxi boolit in .50 cal, dimensions is what I would be curious in knowing.

[johnson1942]

you can also try a .492 diam. 500 grain bullet paper patched. you can get them from buffalo arms as well as the paper and the .60 thousands wads. read idaho rons piece on this web site about paper patching or go to pineridgeblackpowder.com to learn more about paperpatching. only use blackpowder behind a paperpatched bullet some have good results with other kinds of powder but black powder bumps a bullet up real good.

[newton]

So, I guess to bring this full circle, my understanding now is that I want a boolit - whether it be paper patched or not - to be bore diameter, which is about .500. Or, actually, .501 is what I want it sized too. Right?

I think that I will wind up with the 500 S&W mold in the end. I might eventually get the 50-70 mold also, but that will take more sizing down than the 500.

And, if I decide to paper patch, I will have the right boolit for it.

I am keeping my eye open for more options through ebay, or other places. But .50 caliber molds are really few and far between. If it was a .45 then I would have a slew of choices.