FedEx Broken Model 88 Winchester

[gitano]

Gentlemen,

While only one of these rifles is a lever gun, read on and you'll see why I started this thread in the "Lever Guns" sub-site.

Here are three new rifles I have added to my collection.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Remington%20Mdl%20600%20and%20660%20and%20Winchest er%20Mdl%2088/2012-08-30_11-04-14_660.jpg


The top one is a Remington Model 660; the next a Remington Model 600, and the bottom one a Winchester Model 88. As I wrote in the title, they are all chambered in .308 Winchester. :)

Here's a close-up of the Model 88 as it came out of the shipping container shipped via FedEX.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Remington%20Mdl%20600%20and%20660%20and%20Winchest er%20Mdl%2088/2012-08-30_06-40-07_710.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Remington%20Mdl%20600%20and%20660%20and%20Winchest er%20Mdl%2088/2012-08-30_06-40-14_983.jpg

Made me sick to my stomach. I purchased this from Cabelas, and it WAS in pristine condition. Metal is essentially like new-in-the-box. The stock WAS almost perfect. I got it for a song, and the sons of bachelors at FedEx broke it in half. It is my heartfelt belief that FedEx breaks/destroys firearms ON PURPOSE. Let me repeat that for emphasis. I BELIEVE THAT FEDEX INTENTIONALLY BREAKS/DESTROYS FIREARMS. The reason I have this belief is: personal experience, first-hand knowledge of friends and acquaintances, and a mountain of reports on "gun" web-sites reporting broken/destroyed firearms shipped by FedEx.

I contacted Cabelas first by phone then followed up with this email:


Dear Mr. Morse,

Per our telephone conversation earlier today, I am enclosing pictures of the rifle broken in shipping. (I am of course assuming you didn’t send me a broken rifle.) I have included:
1) Two pictures of the rifle,
2) The mailing label,
3) The invoice/receipt from Cabelas, and
4) The shipping box.

I opened the box personally at the place of business of the FFL I was using for the transfer. The rifle was well-packed and the box at first glance didn’t appear to be damaged. As soon as I attempted to remove the rifle from the shipping container I knew something was wrong as it was clearly in at least two pieces and I was fairly certain that Cabela’s had not removed the butt-stock before shipping. Upon careful removal of the wrapping I saw that the stock was broken in two. Even though this break is essentially in the wrist, this particular break required some SERIOUS ‘effort’ to accomplish.

I was heart-broken when I saw this. This is a beautiful rifle in excellent condition. I purchased it to include in my collection. It’s collectable value is now ‘salvage’ at best, but I am more grieved by the destruction of such an excellent example of a Model 88 than I am about my personal loss. This is truly a shame.

Based on personal experience, the experience of others I know personally and the reports of reliable sources on the internet, this breakage is “normal” for FedEx. In fact, it is my personal belief based on the frequency of occurrence with FedEx and the rarity of occurrence with other shippers, (NEVER in shipping firearms around the country for the last 15 years), that FedEx intentionally breaks/destroys firearms. It may be something that occurs whenever they x-ray boxes for “overseas” shipments to Alaska or anywhere else where FedEx is called on to x-ray the contents of a package and they find out it is a firearm. I realize this may sound “paranoid”, but I assure you that I am not “that sort” of person.

In addition to the propensity to break/destroy firearms, FedEx is extremely recalcitrant when it comes to “owning up” to the responsibility. This is inconsistent with their normal willingness to acknowledge responsibility for any other form of loss due to their action. In fact, they are very quick to rectify damage caused by them when it comes to anything OTHER THAN firearms. This is another reason I believe they break/destroy them intentionally.

As I said on the phone, I would prefer not to return this firearm to you and receive a refund. If that is necessary to get FedEx to fulfill their obligations in this matter, then so be it. However, a solution I would be perfectly happy with is replacement of the stock with one of comparable condition before this one was broken. If Cabelas can find such a stock, and I’m not in any particular hurry, I would much prefer that resolution.

Thank you for your consideration in this matter and please don’t hesitate to call at the numbers below – the cell is best – if you have any questions or want to discuss this further.

Sincerely,
Paul Skvorc


On the phone, Mr. Morse agreed to my suggested solution of finding a replacement stock. That said, I doubt that will be very easy. I would like to enlist the help of the folks here at Cast Boolits, (and other sites as well), in finding a pre-'64 stock for this rifle (this rifle was - according to the serial number - made in 1961). Morse said he would check in Cabelas "inventory", but I have little hope for success there. However, if "I" find one, I may be able to get Cabelas to reimburse the cost if I purchase it.

Thanks,
Paul

PS - I was wrong about the date of manufacture. It was 1956 or '57, (23,XXX) not 1961. :(

Paul

[Bill*]

What a shame. I hope it works out to your satisfaction!

[pietro]

I feel your pain.............................

A good example of why I've ALWAYS used USPS for the last 40 or so years, to ship my firearms.

I've NEVER experienced any kind of damage, buying or selling w/USPS - but had a flintlock damaged because the seller used UPS instead of USPS.

.

[Hamish]

Wouldn't it be nice to do some personal instruction on how the jawbone of an (donkey) was used upon the wicked, using the broken stock for up close and personal illustration,,,,,,

Fedex and I shall discontinue our acquaintance.

[fecmech]

I worked for Fedex for 25 yrs and highly doubt someone took the time to unpack your rifle, break it in half and repack the box. Had the box been damaged it may have been caught in the sort machinery etc , willful damage, I'm not buying it.

[Gtek]

Well, here is one from the other side of the tracks. I HATE UPS- they broke my .30 WCF High Wall in half. The butt is $480 through Browning with no way to match. When they auto sort it goes across a rubber road and doors flip after bar code scan sorting for direction. I was told if big long box gets hung on door and here comes more, well, you get the picture. I have been after that always paying for case shipping in or put lumber down both edges of gun box. I fought with UPS for 5 months., they do their best to wear you down, but this old dog had blood in his mouth. They finally got off their purse. I feel your pain! Gtek

[gitano]

I feel your pain.............................

A good example of why I've ALWAYS used USPS for the last 40 or so years, to ship my firearms.

I've NEVER experienced any kind of damage, buying or selling w/USPS - but had a flintlock damaged because the seller used UPS instead of USPS.

.
AMEN!

I tried to get Cabelas to use the USPS but when they said they'd only charge me $25 regardless of how they sent it, I said, "Send it any way you want in that case." I'm sorry - BIG TIME - I didn't insist on USPS and paying the $42 + Ins. myself.

It really looks like I will have to replace the stock with an aftermarket reproduction. I REALLY don't want to do that, but stocks for these old rifles are few and far between, AND I've been told that those that have them want as much as a whole rifle for them because they know they have 'collectors' over a barrel. Before I'd do that, I'd buy a whole new rifle, cannibalize it for the stock, repair this stock and sell it as "Broken - Repaired".

I SERIOUSLY doubt "satisfaction" will be the outcome with regard to FedEx's response. I'm hoping Cabelas handles it well. They've been pretty square in my dealings with them so far.

Paul

[MSgtUSMC]

Pietro: I tried to ship a rifle by USPS to the manufacturer for repair. Both of our local post offices would not accept them saying that it was illegal. One of those who would not accept it was the local Postmistress. I sent an Email to the Postmaster General of the U.S. and within 24 hours I received an Email from the local Postmistress containing an apology and saying yes it is legal. I"ve shipped two long guns to a manufacturer by FEDEX and had no problems in either direction.

[marshall623]

That is a shame those pre 64's are hard to come by. I didn't know they made repro. stocks for those guns. good luck which ever way you go with this. You've got a fight on your hands dealing with Fed EX

[10 ga]

Nice lookers for your collection! That 88 is certainly an excellent example of the era. Even if ya get a "repro" stock I'd keep the original and get it fixed. There are some guys who do excellent jobs at stock repair/rehap/recon. Sorry for the breakage but glad for the story and insight. Best, 10 ga


x

[quasi]

Winchester 88 stocks are pretty fragile to start with.

[helice]

What a heartbreak.
UPS busted my 11-48 Remington so I know exactly how you feel.

[0verkill]

Pietro: I tried to ship a rifle by USPS to the manufacturer for repair. Both of our local post offices would not accept them saying that it was illegal. One of those who would not accept it was the local Postmistress. I sent an Email to the Postmaster General of the U.S. and within 24 hours I received an Email from the local Postmistress containing an apology and saying yes it is legal. I"ve shipped two long guns to a manufacturer by FEDEX and had no problems in either direction.

Is it just me or does the word "postmistress" sound hot?

Anyway, don't give up. A couple years ago I bought a 7.35 Carcano that had appearantly been stored in a gunsock or closet with clothes in contact with it because the exposed metal was horrible. It did not effect the finish of the wood though and it looked pristine. Maybe you'll come across a similar condition 88.

[Tatume]

I think I would take the refund from Cabalas and buy this one on GunsAmerica.

WINCHESTER PRE 64 MODEL 88 308 CAL. APPEARS UNFIRED MFG.1956 SER.348XX NO WEAR ON METAL OR WOOD. NICE SHARP CHECKERING. NO DISCOLORING ON METAL OF ANYKIND. MINT BORE. 100% ORIGINAL

Item number: 905260614

[izzyjoe]

man i hate to hear that, those are nice rifles. i like rifles to be shipped in hard cases, it cost more, but you don't have that. nobody broke it on purpose, things just happen.

[gitano]

Winchester 88 stocks are pretty fragile to start with.

You are the first to express that opinion, and as I look at this one, I do not think I share it.

Regardless of the fragility of the 88 stock in general, THIS break took some SERIOUS force to effect.

"Hard cases" are indeed 'the way to go'. I would add that the USPS is also the 'way to go'. The USPS is certainly not the perfect shipper. As a general rule, they have complete idiots working in the metropolitan ***. However, two 'things' are true of the USPS - They don't "lose" guns, and they don't break guns. Not losing and not breaking trump EVERYTHING else for me.

Paul

[Mooseman]

You are the first to express that opinion, and as I look at this one, I do not think I share it.

Regardless of the fragility of the 88 stock in general, THIS break took some SERIOUS force to effect.

"Hard cases" are indeed 'the way to go'. I would add that the USPS is also the 'way to go'. The USPS is certainly not the perfect shipper. As a general rule, they have complete idiots working in the metropolitan ***. However, two 'things' are true of the USPS - They don't "lose" guns, and they don't break guns. Not losing and not breaking trump EVERYTHING else for me.

Paul

USPS doesnt Break guns ???
Then Explain to me how My Pre-64 model 70 .300 H&H got hammered.
Because they bent/BROKE the rear of the RECEIVER, bent the screws, and the box looked like it fell from 10,000 ft and the action was hanging out the end of the box when I got it. The box was marked "Light bulbs".
I collected 500.00 in damages ( after 3 months of hassles) on a gun worth 5 times that.
They said it "MAY have gotten caught in a conveyor".
The gun was wrapped in multiple layers of bubble wrap,the stock was off and in a padded case and padded ends of the box with wads and 6 layers of cardboard...all was busted through.
They wanted me to turn the gun over to the postmaster in order to collect the Insurance claim, My lawyer set them straight real fast.
Rich

[quack1]

I play around doing gunstock finishing and repairing as a hobby and just finished up fixing a M-88 stock that UPS managed to break into 8 pieces. Got it all glued/epoxied together and with a little touch up of the finish, it doesn't look too bad. About the only thing good about these kind of breaks is they are new and the fresh, clean wood glues really well. The guy hasn't picked it up yet, so here are a couple pictures
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll300/1quack1/IMG_0002.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll300/1quack1/IMG_0001-1.jpg

[MtGun44]

If you are VERY CAREFUL and don't do anything to further damage the broken area, it can
be fixed pretty well, in all probability. As the previous poster said, a good stock repairman
with a FRESH break can do wonders.

If you really want the rifle, have them pay you some amount for damages and get someone
that really knows what they are doing to fix it. Won't ever be perfect, but with many
repairs, they are invisible unless you point it out.

Bill

[wildwilly]

Marlin, Savage and several other manufacturers at an earlier time, stamped the serial numbers on the wood, matching the numbers on the firearm; therefore, replacing wood is not a viable option.

[pistolman44]

I also had a problem shipping a S&W 657 Classic Hunter model. Sent it back to S&W to have it lazered engraved. well when I got it back the rear sight was broken off. You know as well I know that that revolver was removed and slammed hard to do that kind of damage. Even the side plated where it mates up to frame under sight was damaged. S&W did make it right, this revolver wasn't made any longer with the 6" brl. and it was unfired. The shipper was UPS.

[Jeff H]

We have been having problems with FedEx for years and the last delivery was a box containing a broken plate - which was a replacement for the one they broke the first time around. The box was so mangled that I would have been embarrassed to drop it off - which is what the driver did - dropped it in the garage and ran. Of course, the plate was broken even though it had been packed very well. One whole side of the box was caved in and the sides looked like an accordian.

I don't like to get on here and just gripe, but if companies don't feel it, they won't remedy it. Seems like customer service goes with the economy.

45 minutes on the phone with no results. I have to prove they broke it.

[gitano]

USPS doesnt Break guns ???

Rich

You are the first person I have read about let alone known personally that EVER reported a broken gun from the USPS in 15 years of shipping guns around. I don't doubt your representation, but even taking your story at face value, it is one among HUNDREDS from other shippers.

I'm looking for a "master gunsmith" in Alaska. Do you have a business?

Paul

[Mooseman]

I currently am only working on antique rifles pretty much since The FFL dealer I was working for passed away and I don't have a License myself.
I have a small shop in my home and can do work "While you wait" if it is something that can be fixed easily or I have parts in stock for.
PM me a phone number and a good time to call and I can contact you...we can talk.
I am near Glennallen.

Rich

[fecmech]

A lot of what is happening in the shipping industry is related to all of the business trends of late. That is get rid of people and mechanize everything they can. The sort belts at major hubs I think are the major culprits in that there are very few people and when things start to jam up there is no one to correct it till it's done damage to packages. Packages are placed on the belt bar code up and from there on bar code scanners mechanically direct packages to different belts to complete the sort. It's the kind of thing where a person scanning would see that a certain type package needed to be repositioned on the belt to not be damaged or jam. It's a shame that these things happen and the companies do themselves no favors giving people a hard time on legitimate claims. It looks like we may have to go back to the 19th century ways of shipping rifles, in wooden boxes!

[FergusonTO35]

OP- As best as I can tell this mishap should not cost you a single penny. If Cabela's and/or FedEx will not bend over backwards to make this right I would contact an attorney ASAP. The potential cost of them having to face you in federal court should cause them to make the wise decision of writing you a generous check to avoid that. It will help your case if you can document the rarity and collector value of the rifle too.

From what I understand USPS Registered Mail is the only way to go for shipping anything rare and/or expensive. It seems to be the hands down favorite of machine gun collectors.

[onceabull]

Collector value of that '88 went down a bundle when the recoil pad was installed..Try shopping up an real original with some metal wear and tear and flipping stocks..I've yet to see an original stock that was serialized on those rifles...Oneabull

[gitano]

FergusonTO35 - I'm not worried about 'restitution'. Cabelas - so far - has offered to refund my payment and shipping. The issue with FedEx is between Cabelas and FedEx, not me. USPS was my preferred method. I foolishly allowed Cabelas to send it "any way they wanted" since they were only charging me $25 regardless of the shipper used. A mistake I won't make again if I can help it. I'm not worried about "the money". I'm sick over the destruction of an excellent, 56-year-old rifle either by malice or negligence.

Onceabull - While I know of no "Factory" 88s with recoil pads, (but I am NO kind of 88 "expert"), this is a factory Winchester pad, and it was certainly professionally installed if not by Winchester. While you are undoubtedly correct that the rank and file wannabe collector would balk at anything that isn't described in some "Bluebook", more experienced collectors know 'genuine' when they see it. In fact, I suspect that the "collector's value" would not be terribly reduced if I could get Winchester - or whoever they are today - to"officially" repair the stock and provide provenance to that effect. Don't get me started on the abject stupidity and artificiality of the "collecting" community. Such stupidity and artificiality not remotely restricted to "gun" collectors.

Paul

[Jeff H]

A lot of what is happening in the shipping industry is related to all of the business trends of late. That is get rid of people and mechanize everything they can......

I agree and I also feel that it could be corrected. It will not be corrected until enough people shipping or recieving long packages take up enough of the carriers' time or cost them enough money to make it worthwhile though. I worked in the conveyor industry for eight years as a controls engineer and it is absolutely amazing what can be done and just about any problem can be solved with a little time and money. There are some incredibly sophisticated systems running out there.

I also believe that the "do it faster and cheaper" philosophy is necessary to stay in business but the way it is sometimes executed has a negative impact on the attitudes and demeanor of those we encounter on the phone or driving the trucks.

[Tatume]

I still don't understand why the OP doesn't just replace the rifle? I pointed out an unfired example from the same year of manufacture, in the same caliber, for a very reasonable price. This seems like a lot of to-do over a resolvable issue.

[Dorado]

I've never shipped a firearm before. But I have used FedEx a lot. I fabricated stone and granite countertops for a few years and FedEx would deliver the stone to my shop. About half of my orders would be broken. FedEx refused to take responsibility saying that they were broken when they received them. I got real mad when they destroyed an $8000 shipment, and tried to stick me with the bill. I contacted my supplier and had them switch couriers and I never had a problem again.

[OverMax]

Shame something such as this (damage) has happen to your rifle. I don't want to upset you or make comments about a shipping carrier I know nothing first hand about. So the only thing I would say is "Wait and see what Cabela's does to help you." I'm sure Cabela's will do the best they can to help you get that rifle fixed. Like you mentioned your in no hurry. That helps.

[rockrat]

I shipped a mint 1895 Marlin, from about 1974, with beautiful wood, thru USPS. Customer emailed me and was PO'd, thinking I had sent a broken stock with the gun. It looked like someone had used the buttstock end of the rifle as a pry bar. The stock had split from the receiver back and one part was at about a 30 degree angle from the rest of the stock.
He had the gunsmith repair it, as he said he had never seen such a nice piece of wood on a Marlin

[725]

When I ship, which is rare, I build a wooden box from 1X and plywood. Boxes are easy, pad the dickens out of 'em and secure the rifle inside with blocks, etc... Dry wall screws attach the lid. They are easy for anybody to remove & replace. I don't mind paying for the extra postage.

[FergusonTO35]

If you end up keeping the rifle and having it repaired I would be interested to see how it turns out.

[JIMinPHX]

Those stocks are out there, but I can't remember where. I had posted about stocks for a Win 100 not being available anymore & someone then directed me to a place that had stocks for both model 100 & 88. I can't remember who it was that posted the info, but he was a board member that does some gunsmiting & specializes in those two. If you use the search function on the board & look back through old posts, you should be able to find it.

Edit:
Found it -
http://www.gun-parts.com/winchesterstocks/

Also, everything that you ever wanted to know about that rifle, but don't have the time to read -
http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_info/winchesterl_88_100.htm

& spare magazines are available here -
http://www.wisnersinc.com/rifles/winchester/88_100.htm

[WilliamDahl]

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

[gitano]

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

I agree whole-heartedly. However...

When the "stupidity" becomes a consistent occurrence, suspicion of malice is not out of place.

I still don't understand why the OP doesn't just replace the rifle? I pointed out an unfired example from the same year of manufacture, in the same caliber, for a very reasonable price. This seems like a lot of to-do over a resolvable issue.

Because:
1) I Don't WANT another rifle,
2) I don't just throw things in the trash and "buy a new" when something of value AND REPAIRABLE breaks,
3) Because the one you listed isn't even CLOSE to the same quality in the metal as this one is, and,
4) Your "reasonable price" $1200, and the price I paid for the broken one - less than a third of that - are not the same, and finally,
5) Even if I DID buy the one you suggest, that wouldn't "resolve" the issue. This firearm isn't going in the trash just because some deck-ape broke it and I CAN buy another one.

My question back to you is: Even if I agreed that the rifle you found "for me" were a "good buy" - which I don't - why is it so important to you that I do what you want me to?

Paul

[Chihuahua Floyd]

Gentilmen,
I think we can agree that everybody who ships stuff breaks stuff. Some may break more than others. May be in the amount of automation.
As to intentional breakage, I doubt it's company policy, maybe some individuals who need attitude adjustments.
I worked at UPS in college, 30+ years ago, did not have time to intentionally break anything. Did I handle any guns, most likely. Never noticed. Would I break something on purpose, no. Would I report anything like that to someone in authority, yes.
CF

[pls1911]

Amen to stock repair. If treated like a piece o furniture, even
old breaks can be repaired with great results. If there's no one in your area to
make the repair, do it yourself.. It takes patience and.care, but the results can be
Very rewarding.

[Suo Gan]

It's a shame, but holy smoke things happen. Fedex is not ruining guns on purpose. They are a great American company that employs hundreds of thousands of Americans directly, and millions indirectly. It is an amazing company that is excellent in every regard. It is run by people that make mistakes sometimes. What sets this company apart is they offer a good service at a fair price and they do quickly. They get my dad gets his medicine in a day, even on Christmas Eve! Cut them some slack and quit slandering them because you are upset about some old gun. You will get a refund. It is just a gun and not the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Mona Lisa. Get another one and get to shooting. If this kind of thing blows your mind, your life is going to easy and your health is too good. Take this advice and put it into perspective. It could be A LOT worse.

Take care and have fun...you are only here a short while.

[WilliamDahl]

Amen to stock repair. If treated like a piece o furniture, even
old breaks can be repaired with great results. If there's no one in your area to
make the repair, do it yourself.. It takes patience and.care, but the results can be
Very rewarding.

From what I understand, some of the glues these days are so strong that when you repair a piece of wood like this, it will more likely break somewhere else than in the repaired spot.

[TCLouis]

If the company I am buying from even mentions fedup I tell them to find an alternate shipping method or cancel the order, their choice.

[onceabull]

With less than $400 in rifle ,I say a repair or a replacement non -OEM stock is about the only solution that makes economic sense.. One reason for my thinking is that I have turned down more than one offer for more than $400 for the stock on one of my 88's.. Granted those offers were from those "Collectors" you imply contempt for,and my stock is pre-64 Original on a 284 W. model 88.. But someone who has a "spare" Original stock ,either pre or post '64, can easily max out the sale price on one of the auction sites.. Probably 40% of the '88s seen at the 8-12 Gunshows we do annually are in replacement stocks.. Done right I've never seen any practical difference in accuracy level from restocked 88's.. Most are accurately challenged by their triggers... Onceabull

[gitano]

I will continue to look for an original stock OR I will find an "early model" rifle from which I can cannibalize a stock.

In the mean time, my intent is to have the stock repaired. I have found a fellow to do it that has a very good reputation, and having seen some of his work am confident that he can do a professional job.

I will in all likelihood buy a replacement stock from Boyd's, Numrich, or Macon. There's actually considerable work in one of those to make them look like factory. I'll take care of that.

Thanks for your comments, and let me ask that those that are interested keep looking for an "original" stock for me. I'll let you know if I find one before you do.

Thanks,
Paul

[45-70 Chevroner]

Two years ago I bought a Pedersorli Remington rolling block from Cherries Gun shop in North Carolina. I live in Arizona. It was shipped FED-X The box arrived in almost distroyed condition luckely the gun was not broken, it probably would have been broken but Pedersorli makes that rifle in a two piece stock. There was even a note in the shipping box from Pedersorli that they make some of thier stocks in two pieces just for that purpose. I never gave it another thought until reading this thread. Now it all makes sense. I have shipped a lot of reloading stuff through the US mail and by UPS. I will remember to never ship any thing FED-X. We as a group probably won't hurt FED-X by not using them as a shipper but we can satisfy our selves by showing our disdain for them.

[9.3X62AL]

Only one similar event during 12 years as an FFL and 40+ as a hobbyist. Rem 870 Express x 410 arrived inside intact box, stock split at wrist. I replaced the stock with a Wingmaster buttstock, which looked and looks funky in contrast with the Express fore end. Express small gauge wooden elements are out-of-print, it seems.......so either I put up with the mis-match, or order WM fore end wood. The gun shoots wonderfully, and that eases the pain considerably.

Shipping guns--especially long guns--is rolling the bones. I insure the h--l out of them, and usually enclose them in a Gun Guard hard plastic case.

[gitano]

Hard plastic REALLY helps, regardless of which shipper is chosen.

I know that some people don't like to ship long guns in "gun cases" because it notifies EVERY handler that there is a gun in the box, thereby 'inviting' abuse of the package by the 'true believers'. This can of course be mitigated by covering the box with cardboard, but that doesn't preclude x-rays and it adds to cost as OUNCES matter to FedEx and UPS.

On a philosphocal note, why should I have to pay extra for the extra weight caused by the NEED for extra packing to protect against the damage caused by the carrier? It is quite "convenient" that UPS and FedEx are LIGHTENING FAST to blame damage on "improper" packing. Funny how that works. If something I ship gets damaged, the "fix" demanded by the shipper is that I "improve" the packing. What is the result of "improved" packing - increased weight. WHO PAYS for increased weight? - I do. FedEx has no monopoly on this rip-off. ALL shippers do their absolute best to get out of ANY responsibility for damaged shipments.

In my opinion, insurance is ONLY useful for "modern", in-produciton, firearms. There isn't enough insurance to cover the loss of a real 'antique', firearm or other "thing". In addition, NO shipper will pay more than they HAVE to in recompense for a damaged shipment. In other words, you can put $10M of insurance on a pack of gum if you want to, but if they lose or destroy it, they're not going to pay ONE CENT more than "fair market value". Guess who gets to decide what "fair market value" is? If you don't like their "fair market value" assessment you have to sue them. You shouldn't have to guess who pays for your lawyer. "Suing" for anything less than about $10,000 AFTER LEGAL FEES is penny-wise and Pound foolish.

In the end, if "they" - whomever "they" may be - ruin a fine, old firearm, there is next to nothing SATISFYING that can be done about it.

I would be willing to wager BIG money that if legislation were passed that MANDATED that damage or destruction of a firearm would be compensated at TEN TIMES the "fair market value", AND that the "fair market value" was to be determined by a licensed firearms appraiser hired by THE PERSON THAT SHIPPED THE FIREARM, the number of firearms "lost" or damaged by FedEx AND UPS would go to ZERO. The point is: Both UPS and FedEx could prevent damaged firearms if it ACTUALLY hurt THEM to damage one.

Paul

[WilliamDahl]

A company that I used to work at would put the rather expensive and delicate computer hardware that they sold in bags and then fill the box with an expanding closed cell foam. Not a cheap option for those of us who don't ship enough to justify buying the chemicals in 55g drums. I figure that a piece of large diameter sched-40 PVC pipe with the firearm enclosed in a bag and then surrounded with this type of foam should be able to handle anything that Fed-Ex or UPS could throw at it.

[troy_mclure]

I had USPS lOose an encore .22 barrel for me. It was well packaged in a reinforced cardboard tube. The tape at the end cap had been replaced with priority mail tape and sent along with no barrel in it.
Something similar happened with a at bull barrel a fee years ago.
The owner of my range had a box(5) of Boyd's evolution ss stocks smashed to splinters from them too.

All shippers have stuff happen, I've had more trouble getting USPS to make it right than any other.

[3006guns]

I don't trust ANY of them anymore........period. In addition to the usual damaged shipments over the years, I learned my lesson the hard way when the USPS lost an irreplaceable antique lathe part due to a combination of their weak Flat Rate box and my naive packing. I finally aquired a non authentic replacement part for that lathe but brother, never again!:sad:

When I ship a firearm, machine parts, old radios, etc. I usually construct a purpose built shipping container/device that would be VERY difficult to damage/lose "accidently" or otherwise. Lengths of PVC pipe with glued on ends, plywood boxes with reinforced corners....all of these have tremendous advantages over the humble cardboard box. Sure, they cost more to ship but they GET THERE. Anything less is taking a chance.

[uncle jed]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CUSTOM-AMERICAN-WALNUT-STOCK-from-FAJEN-BLANK-for-WINCHESTER-MODEL-88-RIFLE-/221124643170?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item337c0e4962

[uncle jed]

Sorry about the link without any info. My daughter was helping me and did not know I needed to add some to it. It's not a factory stock but it aint bad. So far it is the only one i have found. uncle jed

[gitano]

Thanks, uncle jed. That's the "later" version of inletting. Mine needs the "early" version.

Paul

[mft]

Just had to weigh in on this. For years my family owned a store that had a music section, so we had guitars coming in all the time. If the shipper notified us they were using FEDEX, I'd cringe. I can't tell you how many guitars had to be sent back because of damage in shipping. One guitar in a box came in, and there was a foot print right on the box! I showed the driver, and he just shrugged his shoulders, and said if it's damaged, call the shipper, and out the door he went. Well, I opened it, and as I suspected, the body of the guitar was literally caved in.

First off, UPS has a different truck than most FEDEX Ground trucks. They have the shelving systems, whereas FEDEX have mostly vans or panel trucks. Boxes are simply tossed in and if the driver is looking for a package, I've seen the literally climbing over boxes to get to the one he wants. So if a gun is somewhat angled or leaning up against another box, and in he goes to find another box, it wouldn't take much for a the weight of the driver to snap the stock.

I have a Model 88 I bought used in the late 70's. Haven't shot it in decades, and it's put away for one of my grandsons. I think it's cool when a collector finds one of those "looks like new guns", but mine got dragged through the backwoods of Vermont for years.

BTW: A good woodworker or even a guitar luthier could put that stock back together, and it would hardly show. I did lots of repairs over the years of cracked guitar necks, bodies, etc..., and if done right, they come out beautiful. Good luck!

[3584ELK]

I play around doing gunstock finishing and repairing as a hobby and just finished up fixing a M-88 stock that UPS managed to break into 8 pieces. Got it all glued/epoxied together and with a little touch up of the finish, it doesn't look too bad. About the only thing good about these kind of breaks is they are new and the fresh, clean wood glues really well. The guy hasn't picked it up yet, so here are a couple pictures
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll300/1quack1/IMG_0002.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll300/1quack1/IMG_0001-1.jpg

Beautifully done, sir!

[rainierrifleco]

i bought a really nice sako stock for big money. really nice fiddle back. usps broke it. shame. i think some of the people there are gun haters and run over gun boxes with a forklift.

[John Taylor]

First off, I'm sorry for your loss. I ship guns almost every day and have had more than a few lost or broken. My experience with USPS has caused me not to use them for anything of value, they lost a Win. 52 sporter and refused to pay for it, said I had to prove it was in the box that they ripped open then delivered with just a few parts in the box. Fed-Ex lost a 50 caliber 1886. Driver said he left it on the porch and when the cops questioned him he gave a description of the porch that did not match any porch on the same street. They paid for the loss. UPS has paid for a few broken stocks but I usually have to threaten them with going to another shipper.
You might try giving Brian Board a call about a stock. He makes lots of stocks for pre 64 model 70s and most likely can make a replacement stock that looks original. 417-667-4884

[TheGrimReaper]

WOW!!! Did the truck is was on fall off a cliff???

[TimeRanger]

Greetings. I am joining this conversation a bit late - I found it while researching a 1956 Mod 88 in .308 that I just acquired.

When it comes to shipping ... I work for one of the carriers listed in this thread. I have had years of experience in dealing with the SHOT Show and its exhibitors. By a WIDE margin, they use Pelican Cases to ship their firearms around the country. Yes, they cost more. Yes, they are heavy. BUT, they are one of the most indestructible cases out there and they are watertight. If you really value your shooters, Please consider investing in one.

When it comes to shipping, trust me when I say that none of the carriers intentionally damages goods. Yes, sometimes they can get careless, but intentional damage? No. Damages just cost too much - in money, time and reputation.

This last June, I had some guns in Michigan that I had to ship home to Vegas. I bought 3, 2-gun Hard cases from Cabela's and had them shipped to my place in Mich. I packed the guns in the cases, zip-tied the cases shut then put the cases back in the boxes that they were delivered in. I used the soft-sided cases that normally hold the guns (and some other materials) as extra padding between the cardboard boxes and the hard cases. I put an extra shipping label (copies) inside of each individual box. I then taped all 3 boxes together and shipped it as a single package - Far cheaper than 3 individual packages. Please note that I used a LOT of tape - clear celo-tape. (Do NOT use duck tape - while you can tape the booster rockets to the side of the Space Shuttle with the stuff, it just does not stick to cardboard.) Never use crumpled paper as packaging material - it compresses to nothing. Clothing or similar items are the same - useless. If you use the styrofoam "peanuts", PACK the box full, shake the box around and PACK in some more. Heavier objects will settle their way down in those peanuts unless Tightly packed.

Damage or loss claims: The carrier is liable to the shipper of record only - If you purchase an item from say.. Bass Pro, and it arrives damaged, the carrier will deal with Bass Pro, not you - Except the carrier may want to examine the package at your location. IF you receive a damaged item, be SURE to keep all packaging materials. I have seen countless claims denied because the receiver discarded the box and/or the internal packing materials. Bottom Line - When you pack an item to ship - gun or ??? - if you are not comfortable dropping the package from waist height, re-pack it. Waist Height because this is the height of the conveyor systems that the carriers use. Also, the package has to be able to travel on any of it's 6 sides. "This End UP" or "Top Load Only" mean absolutely nothing they way they pack those trailers.

[TXGunNut]

Welcome to the forum! In my business shipping damages are a huge issue so I get a bit nervous shipping my personal rifles and scopes for repair. Like others when shipping a rifle I use a hard case enclosed in a cardboard box. Costs a little more, takes a little more time but I don't care. My guns are special to me, I want them back in one piece.

[nekshot]

i know this thread is old yet the reality is everyday. I only shipped a few guns (4) to be exact. I took them all out of the stocks to shorten the package and make it look smaller and pack tighter. If I ever bought a gun that had to be shipped I would gladly be a little extra to have someone take it out of the stock and pack together that way.

[double8]

A sad state of affairs when a shipping company will do things like this, and yes, I believe "they" do it intentionally. I shipped a telescope, filled the tube with bubble wrap, wrapped it in layers of tightly taped bubble wrap, put it in an oversized heavy cardboard box with shipping peanuts. UPS still managed to break the lens.
As I mentioned in another thread here, I shipped a few guns when I moved east to west by taking them apart, shipped the stocks in a box labeled "wood carvings", shipped the barrels called "tubing", and carried the bolts, scopes etc with me in the car.
I guess the only safe way to ship them would be to crate them...a bit expensive.

[TXGunNut]

I suspect that shipping a firearm as anything other than a firearm is probably a bad idea.

[double8]

I suspect that shipping a firearm as anything other than a firearm is probably a bad idea.

Maybe, but it worked out great. Why advertise?

[pls1911]

As others stated, a good repair of a fresh break is indeed hard to see, and is usually stronger than the origenal...at least at the break point.
Some of my best bargains have been on old Marlins with broken stocks. Clear epoxy ( buy by the gallon from RAKA for boat building), thinned a little and mixed with walnut dust from the sander makes a smooth and remarkable filler for repair of older breaks which have a less than perfect joint, needing very little tone blending of the finished repair.
Having said that a good repair is a viable option, there's nothing like the origenal.
My only shipping break was like yours, but on a REALLY nice Marlin '93, $450 purchase, plus UPS charge of $25. After two phone calls and a visit by UPS damage inspector, I got a check for $475, ... and got to keep the damaged goods.
Today, you would never guess that little beauty was ever broken, a nice freebee.

[7of7]

I would contact Treebone Carving (http://www.treebonecarving.com/id3.html) and see if he can make a new one. Repair the original, and use the new one for shooting the rifle if you so desire.

[sugarbear]

Gitano,you can buy a brand new win88 walnut stock for 60.00 dollars from hoosier gun works .com

[Sagebrush7]

Bobs Stocks has the new and old model Winchester 88's in stock. Sometimes hard to deal with! Has nice wood and offers different finishes. They don't email but will get to your order in about three weeks. I just tell them what I want and send the money. Been pleased with my wood on old restored rifles and never sent any thing back! Look at his option http://www.gun-parts.com/winchesterstocks/ James

[Tatume]

A good example of why I've ALWAYS used USPS for the last 40 or so years, to ship my firearms.

My M1 Garand was shipped from the DCM via USPS, and it arrived in the same condition as Paul's Model 88. DCM sent me a replacement stock, which was of course, easier than finding a Model 88 stock.

Take care, Tom

[Elkins45]

Gitano,you can buy a brand new win88 walnut stock for 60.00 dollars from hoosier gun works .com

This thread was started in 2012. I'm guessing he has resolved the issue by now.

[Tatume]

Others may benefit from the discussion.

[pietro]

Pietro: I tried to ship a rifle by USPS to the manufacturer for repair. Both of our local post offices would not accept them saying that it was illegal. One of those who would not accept it was the local Postmistress. I sent an Email to the Postmaster General of the U.S. and within 24 hours I received an Email from the local Postmistress containing an apology and saying yes it is legal. I"ve shipped two long guns to a manufacturer by FEDEX and had no problems in either direction.


FWIW, folks using USPS, or one of the shipper's (UPS/FEDEX/etc) can run into personalities that are less than conducive to smooth transactions.

I've had to rub the noses of several different USPS Postal Clerks & Postmasters/Postmistress' into the can of worms they opened - why I carry a copy of the USPS Regulations that apply to firearms with me. (Some had refused to dig out their copy, citing interference with the P.O. operation).

If somebody frequents only a single P.O., they don't (usually) act in defiance of their own regulations a second time.

It' s not a case of "pay peanuts, get monkeys", either - USPS Clerks, etc, make pretty good money (a friend just retired as a Letter Carrier).

BTW: ONLY the sender can collect parcel insurance/damage money, and not the buyer/receiver - who has to deal with the sender for damage compensation.



.

[Tackleberry41]

I think when it comes to shipping companies its more of employee apathy than on purpose, plus lots of machines. I doubt the shipping business is different than any other industry, where its company policy to stiff employees as much as possible. Its not personal, they have to squeeze every dollar, be it rent on a building, employees, or customers. I worked at plenty of car dealers, when you boss does not care about you, and goes out of their way to stiff you, well stuff like that rolls down hill. Its really hard to care a whole lot about the customer as seldom does the customer care about you.

Then I read about a policy at Fed ex where if the customer leaves specific instructions 'leave it under the mat' you do it or pay a 'fine' to fed ex. There was something I was reading it was about a package left under the 'mat'. A huge box with the mat on top of it, of course they complained as it was intended to hide the package. So the delivery guy is danged if he does, danged if he doesn't. Working under such conditions, hard to expect him to care a whole lot if your package comes in one piece or not.

I shipped a muzzle loader recently. Just happened to have a box that would fit, mostly. Took off the metal butt plate to fit. Wrapped everything in old t shirts, tapped stuff up, lots of cardboard. Rifle shows up with a chunk broke off the stock. This was UPS, so if you can't use Fed ex, or UPS, or USPS, really doesn't leave much.

[RAD57]

Back in 1991 after coming back from the first deployment to Iraq a crew chief in my unit received his dad's ole pre-64 model 88 in .308 and the stock was broken in two locations. Being an amateur gunsmith I carefully took it apart and glued everything back together with Acraglass Gel and verrrry small amounts of brown dye. Several spots of the stock where destroyed by over use of oils in the receiver channel so I had to remove those areas and then glass bedded the receiver to the stock. When everything was finished there was only one small spot that looked slightly different. After all that work I loaded 20 rounds of ammo and we went to the range. The darn thing shot consistent 1/2" - 3/4" inch groups at 100 yard with the 4X Weaver his dad had mounted on it. He was going to sell it to me before all the work, but after the trip to the range he had a bunch of different plans for the rifle. I'd like to see a picture of how the restoration went.