7.62x54R FMJ alteration

[dualsport]

The Russian 7.62x54R fmj ammo is a bargain, if you have a MN. I'd like to find a way to grind off the tip to make a 'soft point' for silhouette practice. Shooting the rams with fmjs isn't allowed where I shoot. I tried a hand file, too inconsistent and wild accuracy. Messing with loaded ammo is dicey, I know, but somebody has thought of this before me, I'm sure. The few I did file for a test were hard as heck. I've seen tools from Sportsmans Guide for hollow pointing some fmj pistol ammo.

[Plinkster]

I think most of that stuff is steel core so a file will probably be needed. I'd drill a 2x4 to poke the round through and use that as a type of jig to file em close to the same length. Not sure how to keep the 2x4 from being filed away also except for careful measured strokes.

[Splatter]

I know that this has been done for about a century.
I also know that occasionally a core separates from a jacket and the jacket stays in the barrel and the next bullet hits that bore obstruction, and that's never a good thing.

How about you make some "Mexican Match" ammo instead? Pull the FMJ and replace it with a match-type bullet of the same or slightly heavier weight.
I think you'll be a lot happier with the results, and it'll be a little safer too.

[texassako]

I am pretty sure taking the tip off is a pretty bad idea. It would be hard to make each one consistent plus some is steel core(so not really making a soft point) and some does not have a jacket on the base. My current batch is '52 Russian lead light ball that has a hollow, unjacketed base, and would probably shed a jacket in the bore if soft pointed. I think shooting it as is or pulling and replacing the projectile is a much better option.

[bob208]

many years ago there was a set up that drilled the point of millitary ammo to make hollow points. as has been stated a stuck jacket will happen sooner or later.

[dualsport]

Hadn't thought about the jackets seperating. Nevermind that idea. No free lunch, eh? I will try the Mexican Match though. Thanks for the input.

[Freightman]

If you pull the bullets and dump the powder then you can weigh each charge and get a lot more consistency. I pulled the FMJ's and lowered the charge and loaded with boolits, I had more powder to load and they shot better, then sold the FMJ's for enough to buy some dies and brass. Win Win situation.

[Stonecrusher]

I don't recommend doing this either. There is a possible danger of a blowup. But, has anyone ever looked at the Hollow point bullets that Wolf loads in their 7.62x39 ammo? I had a round a few years back that rattled when shook. The core was loose in the jacket. I pulled the bullet and noticed there was a large open base just like a FMJ, but with the hollow point as well. I've never heard about a jacket being left in the bore with Wolf HP's. Perhaps the jacket material and the smaller hollow point keep this in check.

[eric123]

Can you pull the bullets and seat them backwards? I would lower the powder charge a hair just to be safe too. A lot of the old timers would still do that when I was little. I tried a doing that to a few 30-06 in my younger days and surprisingly they shot just as well in my Springfield...

[Griz44mag]

The steel cores in the surplus will still disqualify it for shooting steel targets, flat point or not. A good RO will be checking with a magnet, and steel projectiles are a no-no.

[gew98]

Hadn't thought about the jackets seperating. Nevermind that idea. No free lunch, eh? I will try the Mexican Match though. Thanks for the input.

Pulling the slugs and loading real soft nosed bullets oft the same weight into the surplus cases can actually give you geat results. For example I found that brass cased 7,62x54 heavy ball ( yellow tipped ) ammo when the bullet was pulled and a surplus M62 7,62 tracer bullet was placed in the case it was dang acurate with Mosins and a hoot to shoot and watch going down range !.

[I'll Make Mine]

Yep, I'll agree that trying to file or clip surplus ammo is a bad idea -- virtually all the currently available surplus is steel core, whether it's 147-148 grain or 174-180 grain loads, and it'll beat up (or perforate) the rams even with the nose flattened. If you're budget constrained, I'm going to add a vote for pulling the surplus bullets and replacing them with a lead core bullet the same weight (get a boat tail soft point and you'll get similar enough ballistics that your military sight will still work out to 300 or 400 meters).

[dualsport]

Laziness is my motivation. I shoot in way too many competitions and so am always 'getting ready'. I bought several thousand rounds of the old Turkish 8mm from Sportsmans Guide when they were selling it cheap. It's dirty as it gets but is fairly accurate from my Turkish Mausers. Tried the bullet switch with that, most of the necks split. It's early 40's.

[Splatter]

... Tried the bullet switch with that, most of the necks split. ...

Really? I'm assuming that you didn't get many neck splits on firing, am I right there?
Which operation of the Mex-match process caused the neck splitting?

And anyway, we're talking about the 7.62 Russian, not the 8mm Mauser, and you've been warned about the possibility of steel core in the Russian ammo; but if you are still going to go for it,
Sinclair makes a meplat trimmer that might help you make more uniform noses.

sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=36562/Product/Sinclair-Meplat-Trimmers

[PAT303]

It was common back in the day to grind the tips off Mk7 303 ammo in Oz,I've shot thousands of them and millions have been shot in Oz and even though the rumour persists about the jackets getting stuck I have never met a single person who has had it happen to them,it's always someone else. Pat

[Four Fingers of Death]

It was common back in the day to grind the tips off Mk7 303 ammo in Oz,I've shot thousands of them and millions have been shot in Oz and even though the rumour persists about the jackets getting stuck I have never met a single person who has had it happen to them,it's always someone else. Pat

I'll second that, I went through a average sized wooden tool box of 303s as a young un' clipped the points off with an old vet's dog claw clipper. They shot pretty well without any problems.

I used a heap of 7.62 F4 Nato ammo and the more modern Aussie approach is to knock the tips off on a grinder wheel. You get pretty good at it and they perform well. Bob Penfold was a big Safari operator and I remeber reading an article he wrote where he described knocking the tips off thousands of 7.62 ammo for guests to use culling pigs and donkeys in the Northern Territory

They never reported any problems. I wouldn't hesitate to try it, but a hundred Privi Partisan cases are pretty cheaply reloaded and will last a long time with care. I'd be using the milsurp for plinking and maybe military shoots.

[dualsport]

The old 1943ish Turkish 8mm splits the neck if you look at it wrong. Many are split just from age, no help needed. I shoot 'em anyway. Haven't caused any major malfunctions so far. Just takes days to clean up after. I'm encouraged by the news from our southern brothers. Maybe the stuck jacket thing isn't such a risk.

[Splatter]

The old 1943ish Turkish 8mm splits the neck if you look at it wrong. Many are split just from age, no help needed....
OKay.. so if the 8mm stuff was so unusual, why even bring it up when we were talking about the 7.62x54?

And making the Mex-match is a quick process, especially if you have a press that swaps dies quickly.
- Pull the bullet,
- neck size (I'd probably use a .300 WSM FL die)
- Seat the new bullet

And you're done, almost as fast as you read it. Really not much slower than trimming the noses if you are going for any degree of uniformity.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I think it was mentioned as an observation on old mil surp ammo being prone to neck splitting if you started pulling bullets. They have a very stout crimp as a rule, have been under a considerable amount of tension for many years and the bullet is invariably stuck in with Tombac or similar and they fight when you pull them.

[DukeInFlorida]

And, if you are talking about those cheap *** damned steel cases, you don't want to be messing with pulling those apart and reassembling them.

The cheapest 7.62X54R ammo I have found are the ones I make from PRVI Partizan boxer primed brass, and some 314299 cast boolits installed. Must cheaper than that "surplus" **** from the can.

[Four Fingers of Death]

And, if you are talking about those cheap *** damned steel cases, you don't want to be messing with pulling those apart and reassembling them.

The cheapest 7.62X54R ammo I have found are the ones I make from PRVI Partizan boxer primed brass, and some 314299 cast boolits installed. Must cheaper than that "surplus" **** from the can.

Pretty much what I said, shot off a lot of mil surp ammo in my time,but I don't go out of my way to get it. Currently have about 500 7.62 NATO F4 left (given to me by a workmate heading to Afghanastan), about three hundred 6.5 Swede, picked up with a lot of factory ammo cheap and some 303Brit.

I use Privi Partisan cases in 8mmLebel, 7.62 Russian, 6.5 Jap and 7.5 MAS. I use Privi Partisan loaded sporting ammo in my K31, as it was all that was available at the time.

Let your head go and treat yourself to some decent brass and a Lee mould, you'll never look back!

[leadman]

If you push the bullet into the case a little to break the hold from the sealer and crimp they pull much easier.
I had some of that 8mm Turk ammo also. That was easy to pull the bullet on. Just put side pressure on the bullet and the necks cracked, lift out the bullet. The bullets were crimped smaller where the case was crimped on them.

[Hamish]

" Just put side pressure on the bullet and the necks cracked,"

Oof. You sure know how to make a frugal man cringe,,,,,,,

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you push the bullet into the case a little to break the hold from the sealer and crimp they pull much easier.

I'd forgotten that trick! Used it many years ago on some 7.62 ammo a friend wanted the FMJs replaced with 150Gn Nosler Solid Base Bullets. He had never reloaded and had no interest in doing so, but that had been the way the previous guy (who had been transferred to another part of the State) did it for him. That broke the seal on the Tombac/pitch sealant and allowed the bullet to be pulled realitively easily. The ammo wasn't that old and I can't remember having any failures. I can't imagine it working as well on old ammo, but will probably result in a higher success rate.

[I'll Make Mine]

The cheapest 7.62X54R ammo I have found are the ones I make from PRVI Partizan boxer primed brass, and some 314299 cast boolits installed. Must cheaper than that "surplus" **** from the can.

Really? I've been trying to figure how to get any kind of reload down to the price of surplus; I bought a case of 1972 Russian light ball, 880 rounds for $160 shipped, which is about 18 cents a round. For full power loads, I can't buy primers, powder, and any kind of bullet at all for that cost, never mind amortizing the original cost of the brass. If I cast my own boolits, I think I might get close if I can make my brass last 20 loadings or so (shouldn't be a problem, I plan to neck size, since I have only one rifle and it's a bolt action) -- and what tips it for me is I can make loads other than the military power light ball and heavy ball available in surplus.

BTW, the surplus I've fired so far (1982 Bulgarian) is quite good, equal to brand new Silver Bear commercial ammo (and lots cheaper).

[Four Fingers of Death]

You guys sure get it good with cheap ammo over there. The 1984 Bulgarian ammo for the Mosin is 68cents a round by the hundred or a fraction over 60cents in boxes of 440! That'spicked up and notmany carriers are licensed to cart ammo here and I can't imagine what it would cost to get it shipped.

To buy 100 Privi Partisan(PP) cases and working on 10 reloads (which I think you could achieve with sensible loads,some won't last 10 shots and some will last longer, but over the 100 you should easily get 1000 reloads), 1000 primers and 44grains of powder each, it works out to $200 for the 1000 rloads without the cost of bullets being included.

With 1000 Privi Partisan(PP) bullets it brings the costs up to $590 if using 150Gn SPs or $645 if using the 174Gn FMJs, not far off the cost of the Milsurp (but you don't have to reload the milsurp).

If you buy a Lee mould and sizing die you end up about $300-$350 in front.

1000 rounds of FMJs are a fair chunk of a barrel's life, but 1000 rounds of cast won't put much of as dent in it. The reduced powder charges will also add to the savings.

Interesting isn't it? These prices will be a lot less in the States, but I would think that the realitive costs would be comparable (lol, just multiply or divide by a factor of I don't know what!).

[Larry Gibson]

Wow! last Turk ammo I got at a gunshow I paid 5 cents a round for...........With the $105 I paid for the M48 shooter and the 8,000 Turk, bulgarian and Yugo 8mm I had I figured I could shoot it all and through the rifle away and it would have cost me 11 cents a shot! I guess what we thought were bad times back then (late '90s) were the new "good old days"........

Larry Gibson

[tomme boy]

I hear ya Larry. I made a bunch of $ a couple of years ago selling all of my 8mm an 54R that I bought from Century Arms. Cases of Turk for $40 delivered. Cases of silver tip for $42 delivered. If ya ordered more than $500 the shipping was free. The best deals were the Chinese tins of 7.62x39. 1240 or 1440 cases for 55 shipped.

The dealer I sold it all to knew what I paid for all of it an he happily whipped out the 100$ bills. I made 4K over what I paid on the ammo an a couple of Mausers.

[Multigunner]

I've used the 150 grain Hornady .312 in reduced loads with Soviet steel 7.62X54R empty primed cases. We pulled the bullets which I used in experimenting with my .303.
The pulled bullets were the 147 gr steel core boat tail. The Soviet powder turned out to be in great condition so I used it in some .303 loads.

Don't know for sure whether you can make a direct substitution of the bullets with the original charge, use your own judgement on that. The Hornady bullet was designed to compensate for worn or oversized 7.7 Jap bores so it works well in the .303, 7.62X54R, and 7.65X53.

PS
While theres always someone who has used cut off bullets with no problems, blown through cores have happened often enough that its not a good practice.
There are a number of variables to consider, bore condition, blowby heating, bullet construction, etc.
Open point FMJ usually has a closed base like a commercial soft point.

The British used tublar jacket soft points and hollow points till the Hague Convention, and there are recorded instances of blow through during target matches. This was common enough that they had a name for it "the Wedding Band". Whether that refered to the portion of jacket left in the bore or the distinctive bulge in the barrel left by the following shot I'm not sure.
In one match a shooter found that his winning score came from the blown through cores striking the ground in front of the target and bouncing into the bullseye.

When the tublar jacket was revived a few years back, to produce economical jacketed bullets for odd or obsolete calibers, it was not long before a shooter was partly blinded when one failed.

Core blow through could also happen with FMJ bullets, the .30-03 was noted for this due to the high temperature of the propellent used.
Military FMJ bullet manufacturing methods were altered to reduce the probability of blow through.

Erosion severe enough to allow blowby is the most common culprit, and any roughness of the bore increases the probability of a jacket seizing up in the bore.

The only open base soft point on the market that I know of is the Nosler Partition bullets. Theres a mid point bulkhead in these bullets that prevents blow through.
I haven't used these but it would appear these bump up like an open base FMJ and have the best features of both bullet types.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Targets/June2360yardsmeasured.jpg

It is worth handloading for the Mosin. Graf's has o.312" Hornady Match bullets for around $26/100.

I have some o.311" Match on the way to see if there is a difference. I like the Hornady stuff, but my bore is only o.3095" and though the extra couple thousandths shouldn't make a difference, it may at longer ranges.

I would not try to softpoint surplus. It's loaded pretty hot in most cases and blowing the jacket is, in my opinion, a bigger possibility with this stuff than with SAAMI-spec ammo.

Josh

[Multigunner]

Hello,

http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o560/Smith-Sights/Targets/June2360yardsmeasured.jpg

It is worth handloading for the Mosin. Graf's has o.312" Hornady Match bullets for around $26/100.

I have some o.311" Match on the way to see if there is a difference. I like the Hornady stuff, but my bore is only o.3095" and though the extra couple thousandths shouldn't make a difference, it may at longer ranges.

I would not try to softpoint surplus. It's loaded pretty hot in most cases and blowing the jacket is, in my opinion, a bigger possibility with this stuff than with SAAMI-spec ammo.

Josh

Lapua used to manufacture a .309 matchgrade bullet, meant for use in Finn rebarreled Mosin Nagants with bores much like yours, and also for use in .308 and .30-06 rifles with bores of .3085.

[jimga]

I have 5 mosin nagants, I use the prvi partizan in all of them... 150gr soft point... get em at midwayusa.... 15.95 for 20...

I have since aquired some norma brass for 7.62x54, and with lee dies I load my own... very accurate....
jimga

forgot to mention I also got a lee 2 cavity mold 155 gr.. have cast about 800 so far... have not had a chance to load any yet... but will post when I do...

[Four Fingers of Death]

[QUOTE=jimga;1837101]I have 5 mosin nagants, I use the prvi partizan in all of them... QUOTE]

This brass should reload nicely as well. Maybe not as precise as the Norma stuff, but ok.

[Griz44mag]

I only got 3 loadings from the PRIVI brass before it started falling apart, splits and a head crack. No more for me, thank you. I just ordered a batch of Winchester, we will see how that does.

[I'll Make Mine]

I only got 3 loadings from the PRIVI brass before it started falling apart, splits and a head crack. No more for me, thank you. I just ordered a batch of Winchester, we will see how that does.

Were you full length sizing? How much (i.e. is your chamber oversize)? Maximum loads, or something lower? Annealed at any point?

Questions because it seems to me there's a hazard of failure on even the first (factory load) firing if the brass is only lasting three reloads, unless it's an oversize chamber and full length sized for factory level loads -- in which case, three to five loads is close to what I'd expect for case life. Anneal all the brass (neck and shoulder) after first firing, neck size only (segregate by rifle if you have more than one), and load to near maximum only when needed (long range shooting, hunting, etc.), and you should get better life.

[Griz44mag]

For the Mosins, I always full length size and trim when needed. I load them for my Mosin collection, which is a dozen plus, my 2 son's Mosins which is another 4 (or 5?) so segregating by rifle would not be an option. I load middle of the road with 168gr soft points and Varget powder. I have reloaded a few Winchester cases for my sons because they had been buying loaded ammo from the LGS for pig hunting. They do not seem to be as tender as the PRIVI as far as easily shoulder dented in resizing and so far after 3 loadings there has not been a single neck split on them. Annealing isn't my thing, for all my rifle brass, when pockets and necks start to fail, I replace them. With the Privi I started getting neck splits after the first reload. That's why I am electing to buy a batch of Winchester brass to load from new for my rifles. With my LR-308, I get 8-10 loadings on Winchester or Lake City salvage with no issues. Most of them get loose primer pockets before neck splits, so I'm happy with that. We will see how the Winchester works out for the Mosins.

[I'll Make Mine]

Yep, if you load ammo that might be shot in any of a dozen or more rifles, full length sizing is the only way to go. Sorry to hear the Prvi Partizan cases get brittle sooner than Winchester; sounds like they're either thinner, or a slightly different composition that work hardens faster, but for me (single rifle, will neck size, and plan to anneal before first reload) I expect they'll do well enough to make up the difference in price (I can buy PP with JSP suitable for hunting for around $18/20 locally -- Winchester primed brass is about that price last I checked).

[Griz44mag]

The shop I work for has a ball mic. I'm going to take a few of each in to work and measure them. Looking at them from the end, the PRIVI appears to be thinner. It's no big deal either way. My sons use theirs for pig hunting mostly, and I spend more time on a nice comfy bench at the range these days. It's gets a little tougher every year for me to go tromping around in the woods and sleep on the ground in a tent than it used to. I need to find a lease with a lodge on it!