About ready to quit casting

[milkman]

Gentlemen

I have been fighting this problem since I first started casting for a rifle. Unexplained fliers-- I cast mostly hunting boolits and those I shoot at paper are generally hunting loads, and expected to perform as such. I am limited to about 100yd shots by terrain and vegetation so really long range is not a concern, but 4 inches at 100 yd is not acceptable to me.


This is a target that I shot this morning. The top right was 6 shots at 50 yards. The bottom targets were shot at 100 yards and show the filers, both were 5 shots. The boolit pictures are a 285g Mountain Mold, these were lubed with BAC and checked with free chex .o12 aluminum. The 2 on the right were from my reject pile. These were shot from a Savage in .35 Whelen

The fliers are Not :
caliber or booit weight specific
check style or material doesn't matter
lube type doesn't matter - Felix, Recluse, Lee, BAC,
seating depth doesn't matter
powder type or amount doesn't matter
Rifle doesn't matter
It doesn't follow a particular case ( flier one time, right on the next)
filler doesn't matter
no leading and no copper in bore

In short it looks like it is ME and my TECHNIQUE!!
I have tried:
I weigh every powder charge
different alloys- COWW, 3:1 Pb to WW, 50/50 and Lyman #2
heat treating
air cooling
water dropping
I weigh every boolit and separate them, at most, 1 SD from average weight.
sized with LAM 2 or Lee ( from nose and base ) and unsized
bores slugged and boolits matched to throat and bore.

I do not:
check run out ( no equipment ) - but several different dies and rifles
trim neck thickness

Nothing seems to eliminate the fliers

any help?

Milkman

[popper]

ME and my TECHNIQUE Rejects are just that. Lower left - flyer 1st or 2nd shot? That isn't good enough for hunting? What, squirrels? Iron sights/scope, offhand or bags? Breathing/trigger control?

[Pat I.]

If it doesn't lead try filling only one groove with lube

[beex215]

thats still great to me. rabbits, fox, whatever should still be taken down with the setup.

[grouch]

You're certainly doing a lot of things right. My best guess is that it's alloy related. I use two alloys, and one or the other will work in all of my guns. Try 20:1 lead and tin and ww+2% tin. Linotype is good if you an get it, 10:1 is good if you can afford it.
I had a 350 rem. mag that shot very well with 43gr of 4320. It had a serious problem with fouling the throat with any powder faster than 4198.
Hope some of this helps.
Grouch

[trapper9260]

It looks like you are doing ok on the casting but the gas checks have you glue them on because if they do not crimp on you might have a problem with them .I have glue some or just use the bullet lube to hold them in place but mainly glue them it works better for the ones that is press on orther wise I also use the crimp on ones. Also have you tried to adjust your powder. the first one that all the shoots are in a group might be a little too much powder or you can use it for long shots but need to find out more info on it .and then the ones that shot too low looks like not enough powder and need to raise the amount just alittle .but if they are all mainly on target I say pratice with it .also is you scale been zero in before you do your weight ?If you just run them with out checking the weigth every so often you will have a differents in the amount and will throw off your bullet.If you have any orther thing need to find out and I can help PM and can go from there .I will also send you a PM

[45-70 Chevroner]

If you have only been shooting that one boolit, it might be advisable to try another mold from a different Company and maybe a shorter boolit but not much shorter.

[Junior1942]

I suspect bench technique.

[milkman]

Thanks for the replies
I am having the trouble on multiple rifles but to keep it simple.
this one is scope sighted, 3X9, shot from a mechanical rest. The trigger is about 3 lbs and crisp. I make sure that I see powder smoke through the scope at each shot, so I don't think I'm flinching. I have tried different rests.

I have tried mechanically crimping the checks on and I have glued them. I don't think they are coming loose, though they are seated past the case neck in this one gun.

It may be bench technique but I don't have the problem with jacketed loads.

I realize that I could take most game and most shots as is, but it could well make the difference in a lung shot and hitting only the liver. I just am not willing to settle for that level of accuracy.

[Larry Gibson]

Is the GC shank tapered/flaired at the bottom?

What load?

What velocity?

Larry Gibson

[Hardcast416taylor]

I`d try a different mold if possible. I`d also try to not seat the bullet with the GC below the case neck. Different alloy is always a possibality to try. Remember to not try a change of more than 1 thing at a time. Sort out any bullets with wrinkles or misshaped lube groove bearing surfaces. Otherwise the accuracy you show at 100 yds. is perfectly fine for hunting.Robert

[milkman]

Larry
The check shank is square and sharp
This load was 38.8g Rl 15 with a small puff of dacron, Chrono's at 1785 fps. Twist rate is 14

Hardcast
In this rifle I have tried the 190 Ranchdog and this 285 Mtn Mold. both with WDWW, ACWW, 50/50 and Lyman #2 clone. The Ranchdog was seated with the check inside the neck.

My real frustration is no matter the rifle or the boolit, I keep getting fliers which I can't explain or correct. I get 1 or 2 fliers per 10 shots. I am currently casting for .30, .35, .45 calibers, a total of 7 molds.

[sundog]

Have you tried weight segregating the boolits? Just for grins and giggles. Weigh ten good ones, determine the average, and then select some that are +/- 0.5 grains of average.

Try a different boolit? I like the 358009 really swell in a 14 twist.

[jlaudio29]

Have someone else shoot your rifles with these loads? Just a suggestion..

[Silvercreek Farmer]

How fast are you shooting? Is your barrel getting enough time to cool off? You mentioned it didn't matter which rifle, what else are you shooting besides the Savage? Scopes, rings, and bases can certainly cause flier issues.

[geargnasher]

Two common denominators are the shooter and the person casting the boolits. If you can get 1 MOA groups with jacketed bullets, then we can assume it isn't the shooter.

Check your chamber neck clearance, very commonly it's WAY too much in factory guns.

If you size your brass to fit your chamber, fit the boolit to the throat, and get it started straight that will improve things enough that you can start working on load development.

Gear

[L Ross]

Milkman, cast bullet shooters have discussed the cause of fliers for decades. A 4" group still means the bullet will land within 2" of where the sights are when the shot is fired. 2" will hardly mean the difference between lungs and liver.
I too hunt where 100 yard shots are about as far as I care to try to thread a bullet through the woods. I am satisfied with a reliable 4" shooter, even 6" would still bring home my venison every season, but I'd be working on getting to 4" or less. I think you are doing well and predict you will end up with better results eventually. You seem to be a serious, thinking caster/reloader, please don't give up.

Duke

[1874Sharps]

Milkman,

Fliers can certainly be frustrating, but your targets look pretty good in general. I wonder if flaring the case mouths a little may help. Sometimes a little lead can be shaved when seating the boolits even though they have gas checks. I wish you the best of luck in your experimenting!

[9.3X62AL]

Milkman--

I have the highest regard for your shot-placement concern on a game animal. That comes from a good place. But for deer hunting, those groups are a whole lot better than a whole lot of 30-30 WCF carbines can manage at 100 yards, and those thutty-thutties have been making venison reliably for over 115 years. My most-blooded deer rifle--a Win '73 carbine in 44/40--can barely hold 3" at 100 yards, and accounted for dozens and dozens of muleys and blacktails during its service life--and at least 2 marauding black bears at my grandfather's mountain ranch. Also keep in mind that whatever the group size might be--fliers and all--is a radial distribution around the group's center, so it is both valid and reasonable to conclude that a "group" is more properly variance of half the group's diameter from a sighted "center".

If jacketed bullets don't produce this effect, but castings do......look at the boolit quality. An internal air bubble or inclusion could be at fault. Scaling/weighing would help sort out possible flyers, if you want to invest that kind of time. Given the range limits you mention, I would be very comfortable taking your present loads afield with confidence that if steered well, they will make meat.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Don't take this comment as being a smart aleck, we all strive for accuracy, but consider giving up paper for a while and getting yourself a 6 inch steel target that will hold up to rifle fire. The ring of a solid hit is very satisfying (as long as you don't start measuring lead splashes!)and can make things fun again after a long frustrating pursuit of a perfect load.

[milkman]

Sundog
I weigh 20 boolits, find the average and SD and then reject anything over 1/2 SD. If the SD is too tight I will go to 1 SD.
Silvercreek,
I try not to let the barrel get more than just warm to the touch.
Gear.
The boolit is a tight slip fit into the neck of a fired case, so I assume that it is sized about right for the chamber neck
LRoss
On the lower left target the flier is 3" left of point of aim. On the right, the flier is about 2 1/2"
low, on other targets it might be left or high. A flier 3" from point of aim is the equivalent of a 6" group. I realize a center body hold will cut hair somewhere, but it just does not satisfy me and I have decided not to accept it. If I can't get a 2 to 2 1/2 dependable group at 100 yd, I think I will look to other options.

I really, really, sincerely do appreciate all the replies and suggestions. And maybe once I get over my mad I will rethink things but at this point the frustration is in control.

Milkman

[popper]

Lead shavings in the lube groove, even with GC? Gradually seat and inspect the lube grooves. Did that to a couple 308s last nite, it doesn't show up on the neck. PITA to cull, but?
tight slip fit into the neck of a fired case Not enough and consistent neck tension! Size and expand properly!

[milkman]

Silvercreek
I just happen to have a couple of gongs made of dozer blade steel. The sons and I used to do a lot of off hand, competitive, lip fighting, smack talking shooting at those things. What great fun.

Wonderful suggestion.

[milkman]

Popper
I flare the case with the Lee flaring tool till the gas check sits about level with the case neck, then crimp to iron the flare back out

[Wayne Smith]

Do you trim your brass. Only other thing I can think of as a possibility is inconsistent crimp. Or are they uncrimped? Then you may have inconsistent powder burn under low pressure.

[1_Ogre]

I can't believe that a gas check coming off will cause a flyer. From the pics, seems there are air holes in the bases of two of the boolits. I lube with Jakes ceresin red and don't have any lube problems. What model of melting pot are you using? Could be your lead's too hot also. I've never gone to the water drop either, tried it a few times and the boolits came out of the water looking like they were frosted. Didn't like it. What powder u using? Have you measured your muzzle velocity? Could be u are pushing them too hard.

[Huntducks]

Darn simple IT'S WERE THE FIRST SHOT GOES THAT COUNTS, if you need 5 shots at 100 yds you need to shoot more.

I see guys at the range clean there barrel before each shot I don't have a hunting rifle that I use without a dirty barrel at least 5 shots, clean barrels don't cut it for me.

For what it's worth just my opinion.

[milkman]

Wayne
I do use the Lee trimmer on the brass, usually check it after every firing. I am only removing the flare with the crimper. Cases are sized with the full length sizer just to kiss the shoulder of the case. The expander is the factory .358 expander, so it should have plenty of grip..... and the boolits are not being sized down.

Quickload shows 22.3k psi. Necks are not sooted and no powder residue in the bore.

[geargnasher]

You're lucky if your boolits are a snug slip fit in a fired case, that's ideal. Now size a case, wipe it dry, and drop it in the chamber. Fish your pinky in there and wiggle the case around. If you can feel it wiggle, then the die is oversizing the body of the case for your particular rifle's chamber.

The more you write, the more convinced I'm becoming that you have internal casting voids which are causing issues. By brief description, I load the same way you do (except I use an RCBS cast bullet-specific expander) and these days I'm in the sub-moa range regularly at 1650 fps and right at moa at 2025 with a different powder using 180-grain boolits in my .30-'06. My .30-30 Marlin, with a tighter chamber neck fit, has been putting the first three into half inch or less at 100 repeatedly with cooling sessions in between. The forend/mag tube/hardware needs tweaking because POI walks down as the barrel heats. .35 Remington shoots consistently at 1.5 MOA, still have some work to do with that one. I'm giving these examples to try to encourage you a bit, and let me tell you they didn't all shoot that way when I started. I had to learn a lot about brass fit, alloy, boolit fit, load development, and a few other things to get there, and can already see I have a LOT more to learn about it.

Flyers don't cause themselves, there's a gremlin doing it and it might just be an air bubble near the base of your castings. Lube purge will do the same thing, but you mentioned you've tried several lubes and the flyers are happpening with all of them and all of your different guns, so I doubt it's the main issue.

Keep trying to think like a boolit, from mould to target, everything you do to select designs, make them, cull them, size them, check them, lube them, load them, and launch them that could interject variables, and work hard to eliminate those things.

Gear

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I looked the thread over, but I didn't see an answer to the question about if the fliers were the early shots, middle shots, late shots, or just random?

If you really wanted to recreate hunting conditions, you could shoot 1 shot out of a clean dry bore (or one shot fouled as long as you replicated it perfectly each time), put your rifle aside until perfectly cool (never really checked but I imagine it might take 30+ minutes), then repeat until you have a 10 shot group, might even take a couple of days to complete the process, but something interesting might come of it. (I know I am on heat again, but this time I incorporated fouling too!)

[Larry Gibson]

Larry
The check shank is square and sharp
This load was 38.8g Rl 15 with a small puff of dacron, Chrono's at 1785 fps. Twist rate is 14

Hardcast
In this rifle I have tried the 190 Ranchdog and this 285 Mtn Mold. both with WDWW, ACWW, 50/50 and Lyman #2 clone. The Ranchdog was seated with the check inside the neck.

My real frustration is no matter the rifle or the boolit, I keep getting fliers which I can't explain or correct. I get 1 or 2 fliers per 10 shots. I am currently casting for .30, .35, .45 calibers, a total of 7 molds.

Based on that I'd have to agree with Junior1942, it's probably you're bench technique. Your cast bullet loads have a very long barrel time compared to full house loads. Any inconsistency in position, grip, trigger pull or follow through will cause the occasional fliers, especially with the "1 or 2 fliers per 10 shots".

Also as mentioned you hav a pretty good load there, I'd test 1 shot (let the barrel completely cool between shots) with a quick follow up shot from the various positions you might use while hunting and see if they don't stay in the kill zone at your max range of 100 yards. If they do I'd go hunting.

Larry Gibson

[milkman]

Silvercreek,.
The fliers are random but seem to happen more at 3 - 5, out of 5. I have been of the more is better lube school. I will try dropping back to 1 lube groove and see what happens.
Larry
I hadn't considered the extended barrel time. My oldest son is an excellent marksman. I see some shooting in his future. He doesn't like cast in his guns, but if I threaten to whoop him I bet he will shoot mine. ( He lifts weights regularly and looks like he belongs in the AFL)
Gear
The cases should be pretty well fireformed with only the neck really sized, but it is definitely something else to check.

[runfiverun]

post number three and number fifteen.

the only other thing i can suggest is to pull the case that threw the flier each time and segregate it.
if the pattern continues,i would look at the gas checks.
you could be experiencing lube purge fliers, but they usually come in a somewhat predictable pattern. [like every 5-6 shots]

try a drop of super-glue on each gas check for a trial run of 20 or so.

[shortrange]

This has already been mentioned, but worth repeating. Forget about groove diameter, and match bullet diameter to the throat diameter. I have one rifle that the bullets I shoot are .005 bigger than the groove diameter. If you have not taken this approach, you owe it to yourself to give it a try. You may have to possibly have a mold made for your gun though, depending on the size of your throat.

[Hogdaddy]

Hope you get the fliers worked out, Otherwise pretty good groups for hunting. Good Luck
Milkman & keep at it ; )
H/D

[Blammer]

have someone else shoot some for groups, see what they get.

[Lizard333]

I have a buddy that shoots matches and was unable to get his group sizes to shrink to what he knew what the gun and himself were capable of. We changed one variable. The primers. Went to a different brand. His groups shrunk by over two inches.

This may not help with your flyers, but may help with your group size.

[bowfin]

I would try a batch of somebody else's cast boolits.

If you still have flyers, then everything you do with your boolits up until the time you load them is eliminated. If the flyers go away, then it is indeed your boolits.

[milkman]

Lizard
Good thought, I do have a few different primers stuck back. I will give that a try also.

Bowfin
Great minds run in the same channels. I was thinking that this morning. Goodsteel sent me some RCBS boolits that he uses, but I haven't worked up a load with them yet. I will load ps some of them too.

[softpoint]

For the most part, I can accept groups that are slightly larger with cast boolits than their jacketed counterparts. In most rifles. And, those rifles may be capable of the same accuracy as jacketed, too, but there are so many variables, I am simply too lazy to work that hard with each rifle.
I seem to have better luck in most of my cast bullet guns by firmly pulling the stock into my shoulder, and putting my hand between the front bag and the forend and gripping the forend. Especially with 45/70, which I shoot a lot. I think its a barrel time thing. I have 2 bench guns in .223 with 2 oz. triggers that do just fine by lining everything up and simply touching the trigger without contacting the rifle anywhere else, but they shoot jacketed at higher velocity and with less recoil. ( of course you wouldn't do that but once with a heavily loaded 45/70:grin:). [smilie=2:

[9.3X62AL]

Milkman, I would hate to see you throw in the towel when you are so close to idealizing accuracy. From my perspective, your rifle groups are already hunt-worthy--easily so.

BTW--2 shopping days until the dove season opener. :) Can't miss that, the humility those feathered rockets induce does us all some good.

[HORNET]

Milkman, I may have missed it but are you seating the boolits out far enough to be in firm contact with the rifling? A little jump can make things go weird once in a while, even with jacketed.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I got here late, and after skimming the whole thread I can't seem to find a weight difference in your boolits. I only saw SD? SD is only meaningful if you have all the numbers to compare.

How much difference in grains do your boolits have? If they are not all inside 1.-1.5 grains of the target weight, and really more like less than .5 gr then that might be your problem. This would indicate casting voids.

Also no one mentioned how your gas checks are seated? The one thing that affects accuracy of any bullet more than any other factor is the condition of the base of the Bullet/Boolit. If you have 4 boolits where the gas checks are perfectly square and then one that is just a few thou cockeyed that will be your flyer. I would suggest a gas check seater from Al Nelson or Ben as a solution which will guarantee perfect results everytime. And "perfect everytime" is exactly what you are looking for.

Even with all that, the deteriorating condition of the bore thru a string of shots due to dirt, lube build up and general goo accumulation could easily be your problem.

Is the flyer a cold bore shot?

Does the flyer happen at the same shot in every group?

If yes to either one, it's the gun, if no it is the boolit.

All that said, the groups I see on your targets are excellent. Like mentioned above your "flyers" are only 2" off the point of aim, and unlesss you are shooting the eyes out of your deer I doubt anyone could tell if the shot that killed your deer was a flyer or not.

Now if you miss completely, then you could blame it on the flyer, which might be an acceptable excuse in a hunting camp? :holysheep

Randy

[milkman]

Softpoint, I use about the same technique, but I don't even touch the forearm. I squeeze the front bag to raise or lower the rifle. I touch the rifle only at trigger, wrist and butt. I try to be consistent, but there is a problem somewhere.
9.3X62
Part of the problem is that I am SO CLOSE, then accuracy (consistency) eludes me. ARRGGGGHHHH
Buchanan
boollits are sorted to about a max of 1 1/2 grains on a 285g boolit. I guess I could sort to .5g as a test. I check each gas check for straightness with the mark 1 eyeball with the boolit on a flat surface. I have been seating with the LAM 2 after hand pressing check on and applying quite a bit of pressure with the lubesizer to the flat nose boolit. I am not ready to put more money into this at the present time to purchase more toys.


I did fire another group of 5 shots this morning in the gusty winds from Ivan. I removed the lube from all but the lower lube groove. I got a group of 2 5/8" with the furtherest from point of aim 1 1/2. I can live with that if the wild ones don't return. It was a single, small group, but encouraging

[sw282]

Milkman- To get a True Hunting Group you need 2 things. A dirty barrel and a cold barrel. Take 10 rds to the range. Shoot 5 rds and let the barrel cool 10 minutes.
Next -shoot 1 rd @ a fresh target. Let barrel cool 10 minutes. Shoot rd #2. Let cool 10mins. Rd 3- cool 10mins. Rd4-10mins. Rd 5. This how you get a TRUE group.
Letting the barrel cool eliminates ANY bedding or warpage issues that appear when gun/barrel/action heat up from long shot strings
282

[Junior1942]

I just thought of something. You might have a scope ring problem due to screw holes not tapped all the way through. See this http://www.castbullet.com/misc/544.htm

[milkman]

Thanks Junior, I will check on that. Oh, and by the way, thanks for sending the remnants of Ivan on this way. We needed the rain.

[geargnasher]

The trick, really, is doing things at the casting and reloading benches that cause the boolit to exit the muzzle with a square base and as balanced as possible. There are many ways this can go wrong, and a lot of ways to fix each thing that messes up your boolit between the mould and the muzzle.

For example, it doesn't matter how perfectly square your gas check is seated if you load the boolit such that its base gets distorted upon firing.

Gear

[Wolfer]

Milkman
Your getting a lot of good advise here so I'm hesitant to jump in but here goes. I don't believe it's a shooter problem, I feel that your a shooter. I suspect a gas check problem. Even if they don't come off in flight if their not seated square they will cause the boolit to fly off. Although they usually fly off farther than yours are.
I would hunt with your loads but I've always been able to get cast to shoot better than jacketed although at a lower velocity.
It might be voids in your boolits, it could be any number of things but if you keep trying you will sort it out eventually.
Good luck, Woody

[Silver Hand]

If not already stated, Batching brass. Omit all brass that pitched flyers. My .264 will shoot one inch most of the time, using Winchester brass. Using Remington brass the same load shoots four inch groups.
The brass case bases are completely different. One has a nice consistent funnel type web, the other has a roll a space and a ring around the primer, hard to describe but it looks like a three ring bulls eye down there. It took me a long time to find that one inch group.

It might be time to purchase a concentric gauge also.
Just for kicks if you get time try weighing about fifty rounds of J bullets, I was shocked last I weighed 180 gr. 308 spire points ''Nosler partitions'' for my reacher .300 win mag, some thirty odd years back. Totally shocked I was looking for the same reasons - flyers
In that case it was the bullet many out performed Nosler for accuracy at the time. I like the Idea of using boolits from a different mould as part of the solution.

Don't get frustrated, do something else for a wile. Remember it is a pastime and a hobby that gets us there.

[44man]

Years and years ago fliers were blamed on the rifle not liking a bullet but they were not talking cast.
The lube looks like CR and should not be a problem unless it is all not coming free and some stays in a groove.
The aluminum check might not be gripping the rifling and stopping skid. I would try copper checks too.
Run out was mentioned and that might be one of the most important things to look at. Sometimes it is so bad you can roll a round on the bench and see boolit wobble. Over sizing and then expanding will bend shoulders. Any bullet will NOT straighten itself out when shot.
Now the alloy! With your velocity you do not want a real hard boolit because a little expansion is best. Every time I use soft lead in revolvers I get fliers. You might try 75% WW metal and 25% pure then oven harden them. It will not hurt expansion.
So many things to try and so many good suggestions that I think you can solve it.

[youngda9]

If it's happening on multiple guns then there is one common denominator.

[44man]

If it's happening on multiple guns then there is one common denominator.
That leads me to run out problems. Loading dies are at fault.

[HollowPoint]

I had a similar problem with one of my milsurp rifles. My fliers generally showed up after I'd fired three or four shots.

Since the rifle was super accurate up until the fliers reared their ugly heads I just assumed it was me.

During prolonged shooting sessions it got so frustrating that I even built a custom fairly-tight- tolerance shooting rest with a remote trigger so that I didn't even have to touch the rifle after I'd zeroed the cross-hairs on target.

I wanted to eliminate any amount of human error I was adding to the mix. With this setup the rifle still shot as accurately as before but the fliers were still present.

Long story short; on my particular rifle the wooden fore-stock was being affected by the heating of the barrel. After three or four shots the stock would warp inward which allowed it to make contact with barrel when fired. I'm just assuming but, my guess is that it was affecting the barrel-harmonics.

Funny thing is that in situations like this you can more or less plot the direction that the flyers tend to go but in this case I'd still get accurate shots in even after those initial three or four shots; with flyers randomly dispersed.

A little judicious sanding of the fore-end-stock cured the problem.

I'll still get an occasional flyer with this rifle but, they could be caused by any of the reasons that have already been mentioned. In my case, the flyers I get now are my own fault.

In a hunting load, if my first three or four shots will give me repeatably nice tight clusters at one or two hundred yards, flyers like the ones you've pictured become inconsequential.

But still, we could all do without the flyers.

HollowPoint

[Char-Gar]

There are only a couple of thoughts I could offer on this thread;

1. I would not know how to begin to sort this all out without being with the OP, loading with him and going to the range with him.

2. Flyers are not a given and don't occur absent a reason. There is a reason for the flyers and if that reason can be eliminated, the flyers will go away also.

[milkman]

Thanks again for all the assistance. I have backed off, slowed down and am in the process of takings some slow breaths.

As per advice, I am re-examining everything. One thing I have found was in the boolits. I have been cutting the sprue pretty soft which caused a tear in the boolit base and I noticed that the tear was off center in some boolits. Apparently the sprue plate was not fully closing sometimes, which left an off center hole in the boolit base. Weight was the same but it would have been unbalanced. A definite Maybe.

I cast some more, letting the sprue cool till it cut rather than tore, and made sure it was centered. I seperated them by weight to .6g and will lube only the lower groove and shoot them as soon as the rain from Ivan clears.

[geargnasher]

The crater won't hurt your accuracy at all as long as it's centered and all the boolits have them.

Gear

[kir_kenix]

I cast some more, letting the sprue cool till it cut rather than tore, and made sure it was centered. I seperated them by weight to .6g and will lube only the lower groove and shoot them as soon as the rain from Ivan clears.

Now you will never know for sure which variable caused the flyer if you solve it. If you change more then one condition at a time it will be impossible to narrow down the issue. Alot of us that have read this thread are emotionally involved and need to know the answer! lol.

Seriously tho, I hope you get this all sorted out and start enjoying the hobby again. I know first hand the frustration of not getting a rifle to shoot right. It's doubly frustrating if you know the rifle and shooter are capable of better accuracy but you just can't reach it.

Good luck and report back with your findings.

[skeettx]

My two suggestions
1. size .001 larger than you are presently sizing.
2. Are you using an "M" die to bell the brass before seating the bullet?
Try that and let us know the result
Mike

[milkman]

Kir Kenix
If I get it solved, be sure I will backtrack to find the culprit. I got one good group in before the rain started by lubing only the lower groove and making sure the sprue plate was fully closed was a given, and the weight segregation was what I was already doing. Believe me, If I get this thing fixed the entire world will probably know !!
Skeetex
I am sizing .360 now for a .358 bore and using a Lee flaring die. I don't have any way to size larger and really don't want to spend more money on tools. If I can't do it with what I have I guess I just won't do it.

[skeettx]

Thanks
Yes 360 and lee die should work well
Bummer, was hoping to assist
I sure do like my 3589 OLD Ideal mould and the Hornday crimp on gas check
Mike

[MBuechle]

I think Gearnasher's on to something. Would require a bushing die to investigate.

[Char-Gar]

As I said before I won't try and diagnose the problem, but I will bet that when found it will be something pretty simple and obvious and not something obscure and highly technical.

[HangFireW8]

Fliers come from many things, and eccentric brass and crooked seated boolits are two of them.

If you aren't checking for concentricity, you aren't trying to load truly accurate ammo.

I check two things, the brass after sizing/before loading, and then the boolit tip after loading. When I do the first check I use a Sharpie to write a line on the high side and if it is over .001" out, I write the number on the side. (No line means .0000->.0005", a line alone means .001").

If the loaded boolit eccentricity does not match the neck eccentricity line after loading, in orientation and/or magnitude, I know the boolit was not seated correctly.

It doesn't take expensive equipment, I use an old RCBS Case Master, which has other uses.

I get amused and frustrated by the noob neck sizing versus full length threads, where few or none are actually checking results (except by shooting). After loading a batch of ammo, I can tell you which ones are going to be the flyers, which sub-batches are going to group the best. Before shooting them. Yes, I cull the eccentric ones out, I either pull them down, correct them, or use them as foulers.

HF

[popper]

If you can get 1 MOA groups with jacketed bullets, then we can assume it isn't the shooter. I don't have near the shooting experience that others have but I can't completely agree with this. Like they say in golf, 'it's the follow through'. My groups are better @ 2500+ fps than 1800 fps. I can consistently get a 1" group with jacketed, in 30-30. I can't with cast - but - I know when something isn't right. Breathing, pulled trigger different, hesitated, flinch, etc. The only commonality in loading is the Lee flaring tool, which I use also, don't think that is the problem. All your die cannot be 'off'. Other issue is that you won't be shooting from bags when hunting. Your 4" circle criteria basically says you won't be able to take a shot at over 25 yds.

[Suo Gan]

I read the first two pages of this thread and did not see anything about fitting that boolit to the chamber and barrel and making a chamber cast. Perhaps figuring out if there is a tight spot or just needing a lapping.

I would try and get a copy of Veral Smiths book, and read it and reread it as it is excellent. I have found that where I thought he was wrong, it was just a misunderstanding on my part.

But I like to keep things simple. If you only are developing a hunting load and shooting very little, I can see how someone would want to quit casting if they are getting the desired results with jacks and the boolits are giving them fits, and they do not want to go down the tedious check list.

Here is what I EXPECT. I expect to be able to give the boolits a passing once over rejecting only the serious oddballs. I dip those in LLA and size them. I expect them to shoot reasonably well for the particular gun. If they can't, I do not want to waste my life on some quest, perhaps it is something small, but if it is shooting jacketed bullets good, and not shooting boolits good, that causes my blood to boil. That is just too frustrating for me. I have some rifles that will shoot cast boolits and cloverleaf them from the start and others will be like yours. I have better things to do than weigh boolits and take chamber casts. That is not fun to me, but to some it is. Sounds like you are more like me.

This is up to the person though. Here's to having fun.

[Cap'n Morgan]

F W Mann noticed the 'one-in five' flier with cast bullets more than a hundred years ago. After years of testing, his verdict was it was caused by less than perfects bullets. If your bases and lube grooves looks sharp I would suspect internal voids. Try culling everything but the heaviest boolits and see what happens.

I can highly recommend Mann's book "The Bullet's Flight From Powder To Target". Lots of interesting information for cast boolit shooters. You can download it from Google Books - a link can be found here: http://www.accurateshooter.com/book-dvd-reviews/free-downloadable-classic-gun-books/ (Can't give you a direct link as stupid copyright rules blocks most Google Books here in Denmark)

[TXGunNut]

All I can offer is encouragement, Milkman. I was in your shoes last year, mainly because I had too many projects and didn't allow myself to focus on one rifle. Lesson (re)learned was to identify, isolate and evaluate variables. Seems overwhelming at first but after you identify the things that are working well you can work on the variables that aren't. Trick I have trouble learning is to only change one variable at a time or take a variety of loads to the range where you change only one variable over a range that you suspect will work; varying seating depths, powder charges or crimps for example...just not more than one. Save your targets, measure and evaluate when you get home. Take good load notes and keep good records of the results so you don't wind up repeating a test that didn't work out the first time.
I think you're close, very close, to a breakthru. You've set a high goal for yourself but it's not out of reach. If it was easy anyone could do it.