Army Nixed the Cross Pin in the Colt SAA

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Fellow Sophisticates,

I have just received a letter back from Dave Scovill, Editor in Chief of Wolfe Publishing Co., and author of “Loading the Peacemaker, Colt’s Model P.” According to him the Army nixed the cross latch base pin retaining system in the Colt revolver. The Army believed that it might fill with dirt or fouling and freeze the cylinder. Colt went ahead with it in the 1900’s after the Army no longer contracted for the Model. Of course this was also the advent of the less fouling smokeless powder.

I had written to Dave Scovill about the cross bin retaining latch being machined into the frame too low to properly engage the base pin.

Handloader magazine had recently published a rather condemning note on Colt’s failure to respond to the shooting public’s request for cylinder throats cut to .452” and has released their new New Frontier with .456” cylinder throats. Usually I object to criticism of Colt’s however I must admit the criticism was deserved this time. Colt’s opinion was that .452” cylinder throats would dangerously increase chamber pressure in their thin walled .45 cylinders. Surprisingly tests reveal jacketed bullets do not significantly increase chamber pressure over the softer lead bullets.

Dave Scovill said Colt was quite respectful and courteous but rejected Handloaders recommendation.

Silver

[smkummer]

Colt was blasted for its 3rd generation revolvers but going to a finer 1/24 barrel thread saved the .357 chambered guns from having the barrel unscrew from from the older coarse 1/20 thread. If Colt would hesitate on what the shooting public determines is oversized chambers, they may have good reason. In my 3rd gen. guns, a 454 diameter bullet shoots very well.
I believe they have done the best they can with a 1873 design and cartridge. While the original cartridge used a .454 bullet, somewhere along the path, it was decided to merge the 45 acp bullet diameter with the LC bullet and we have what we have today. Again, casting or finding hollow base lead bullets such as Remington work really well in the Colt SAA.

[MtGun44]

Colt just can't win for losing - continuously making stupid marketing and engineering
decisions.

Dropped the Mustang/Pony and the Pocket Nine just before CCW went wild and now
SIG has a huge chunk of their market because they were smart enough to reintroduced
the designs and to MAKE THEM OF HIGH QUALITY.

They are STARTING to get their 1911 'stuff' together, but have been very slow about it
and basically piddled away almost all their market share. Can't/don't build enough to fill
the demand for their 1911s, again pretty darned dumb.

Bill

[Potsy]

Not really understanding why they had to go all the way to .456. .453 would have been fine with a .452 anything.

I guess that once again I'm risking life and limb with my Bisley and it's .4515 throats. Been thinking about getting them opened up to .4525-.453. Maybe I should open them to .5, just to be safe.

Yes, I know a Blackhawk cylinder has more meat, but what about New Model Vaqueros, or for that matter, USFA's? They seem to get along just fine at .452.

In the last 140 years, Colt has brought forth two of the finest pistols ever (SAA and 1911). Because they have managed to be bested by others on renditions of both designs, I've not had the urge to own either from Colt.

But I'd still like a New Service in .45 Colt, big throats and all, a totally irrational urge, but nonetheless.....

[Love Life]

That is why I didn't buy a Colt. I wanted that genuine SAA, but at the end of the day with the supposed issues of the Colt SAA I couldn't justify the cost. It is sad really.

With what they put out their prices need to drop by about $700

[runfiverun]

yes the usfa's do very,very well with 452 thoats.
couple of my favorite revolvers in the cabinet.
odd they used the same stuff, dimensions,probably some of the same equipment to out colt colt,
and beat thier price point too.

[Multigunner]

In Black Powder days and well into early Smokeless Powder days over sized bores or under sized bullets (whichever way you want to look at it) were very common. Mainly because of the effects of corrosive primers and the high humidity of many of the worlds hot spots.
The Gew88 for example, started out with a .318 bullet and a .321 bore size, depending on bumping up to fill out the grooves, and some Mausers used a very long free bore to reduce chamber pressure should the bore become heavily fouled with Cupro-Nickel or other jacket materials coupled with thick carbon deposits and rust.
Most British 19th century military issue revolvers followed the same pattern of bullets undersized for the bore or at least undersized for the chamber throat.

They weren't particularly worried about a blown out bolt or cracked frame so much as the action being tied up by a swollen cartridge case or backed out primer.

I have seen photos of a sectioned blown out Mauser 98 with bore constricted by rust and ancient fouling. Occasionally some yahoo will try to "shoot the rust out of it".

I agree that this should no longer be a concern for Colt SAA built of modern steels and using modern propellents, but in these litigious times few companies would want to back off from a tried and true built in safety factor.
Its best to just adjust your loading practices to make the best of it, if the chamber is large enough in diameter to allow a bullet thats a few thousandths larger than standard.

Back when surplus .45 ACP was dirt cheap I often thought of how nice it would be to have an SAA with spare cylinder chambered for the ACP.

PS
I almost forgot the original subject.
Its never was easy to get the US Army to accept any changes to a weapon already proven to work just fine as is.
I think the cross bolt cylinder pin catch weakens the frame a bit compared to the small diameter lock screw.

My old style .22 Magnum Single Six showed some frame distortion when I got it. You could see that besides there being alot of end shake the cylinder face contacted the top of the barrel breech leaving a wide gap at the bottom.
I used a heavy piece of seasoned walnut to pound on the front of the frame at the cylinder pin opening. it took many strikes, since I did not want to over do it, but finally the end shake was brought to managable levels and the face of the cylinder is square to the barrel breech with an acceptable gap.
How this frame became distorted, the .22 mag being a fairly mild cartridge for such a robust frame, I really can't say for sure, but the bottom of the grip frame (grips were long gone) showed signs of someone using the pistol like a mallet, probably to drive tent pegs or some equally dumb thing to do with a handgun.
Using the long barrel as a handle would put a lot of stress on the frame in a manner it was not designed to deal with.
Since the section drilled through for the catch was the weakest part of the frame, it bent there first.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I think we sometimes fail to realize that Colt does NOT actually want us to fire their SAA revolvers, just pay thru the nose for them so we can admire them.

It is the same issue with their AR-15's. Their bid of $36X.xx dollars per M4 was second highest.
That's why they start at almost a grand for an AR.

They file bankruptcy, someone buys them, takes the tax write off, files bankruptcy two years later, and the beat goes on.

I think you get a better SAA from Cimarron for 40% of the Colt cost.

Rich
Sua Sponte

[EMC45]

Colt just can't win for losing - continuously making stupid marketing and engineering
decisions.

Dropped the Mustang/Pony and the Pocket Nine just before CCW went wild and now
SIG has a huge chunk of their market because they were smart enough to reintroduced
the designs and to MAKE THEM OF HIGH QUALITY.

They are STARTING to get their 1911 'stuff' together, but have been very slow about it
and basically piddled away almost all their market share. Can't/don't build enough to fill
the demand for their 1911s, again pretty darned dumb.

Bill

Excellent point Bill.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I got a dealer promising to deliver a brand new in the box black powder frame Colt SAA in .45 to me within the month or so. Maybe I'll have a new cylinder cut for it after a while if necessary.

[Dale53]

Frankly, I gave up on Colt WAy-y-y, back when. Their 1911's were a good platform to build a GOOD 1911 but as issued were pitiful. I bought several of them in my IPSC days and had them completely rebuilt from the ground up before they were what they should have been in the beginning. They were made of excellent steel but you could shake them like a castenet.

Companies such as Kimber have shown what can really be done with a box stock 1911. They owned the 1911 market AND the AR 15 market and blew both.

My recently acquired Ruger Flattops have it all over a Colt for a fraction of the price. A simple trigger job and they are good to go for generations of heavy use.

I think the New Frontier is about the prettiest single action ever made. However, I wouldn't have one on a bet. They are horribly overpriced and under performing.

FWIW
Dale53

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I bought my first Colt in 1973 and currently own 11 Colts, 6 Rugers, etc. I count having purchased 27 revolvers in 27 years. I shoot and compete all the time and have carried the Colt for more than the past decade as a peace officer, both rifle and pistol. We bought 50 Colt AR-15’s years ago for grunt duty and have had zero problems with them.

I can count only three single actions that have ever frozen up on me and would go bang. One a Colt when I was testing to see how long they would run without cleaning. Shooting cheap wheelweight 250 gr boolits and a health dolap of Unique over a year finally crude built up in the hammer pawl groove and made it difficult to cock one of my Colts. So then I cleaned them all, after a year of running them without cleaning. I have had two Ruger Blackhawks freeze up from factory errors and would not go bang. They have been repaired and I still have them.

The great thing about the 1st amendment is that we can voice our views on our 2nd amendment rights. The Kimber was a passing fad, everybody went out and bought them but that Schwartz safety makes them poor choice for self-defense. Colt abandoned the Schwartz safety long ago. Our last Kimber blew up at our range, I prefer forged rather than cast slides and receivers. Most people who buy guns shoot them less than 500 times. Manufacturers know this and build guns to compete in a competitive price market where the guns will probably last about 500 rounds. Kimber does good in this market of buyers who keep their guns in a drawer. People complain about Colts when they buy them, then change the springs and file down all the parts. As our local gunsmith tells potential customer who what to alter firearms; You know, there’s a reason they didn’t make it that way in the first place at the factory.

Although Colt deserves the criticism it received from Brian Pearce in Handloader magazine for re-introducing their New Frontier with oversized cylinder throats their guns work and keep on working.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
It’s not where Obama was born that’s the problem; it’s where he’s living now.

[Dale53]

My IPSC 1911 (with a proprietary frame and a Colt slide and National Match barrel) has over 100,000 rounds through it and still shoots about 2" groups off a Ransom Rest at 50 yards.

My Colt 1911 (which I just recently gifted to my son-in-law) was my primary back up that never was needed. It has been expertly rebuilt and I expect it to run a couple of hundred thousands of rounds without serious issue. Colt made good metal but the fit was lousy. A good pistolsmith can build one tight to run reliably. Forged parts are good but so are good cast parts (the ultra tough Ruger single actions all have cast frames - however, they are INVESTMENT cast and that is a whole 'nother world from the cast parts that gave casting a bad name).

I have no problem with either forged or investment cast. As long as the work is done well, they will last well.

FWIW
Dale53