How do you make a Paper Punch for 45-70 Discs ?

[DoctorBill]

I now have two 45-70 Black Powder Rifles - Both H&R.

I have been making the discs that go between the powder, grease
cookie and Bullet by using a sharpened hole cutter.

http://www.mynetimages.com/af910bcf9f_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/af910bcf9f) Click on thumbnail image

That process is slow and hard on my old hands.

How would one make a "Punch" for 0.440 inch dia milk carton cardboard ?
I could use it with my 1/2 ton Arbor Press....

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

DoctorBill

[JCherry]

Doctor Bill,

You could remove the wood handle you have and if you have access to a lathe turn down the end of the punch to a size that will fit in a drill press and use your drill press to make wads.

Buffalo Arms has good wad cutters available in several sizes to put in a loading press that works very well, you can see it at:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=157363&TERM=wad cutter

I have a press mounted wad cutter (.462 diameter ) similiar to the one Buffalo Arms has that I picked up at the 2011 Quigley and I am very happy with it.

Have fun,

JCherry

[DoctorBill]

How about something like this.

http://www.mynetimages.com/1a7a53cf32_th.jpg (http://www.mynetimages.com/viewimage/1a7a53cf32) Click on Thumbnail Image

Saw something like this somewhere in the past.

Kind of like a true paper punch but tough enough to handle Milk Carton thickness card.

Drill the metal all the way thru at the same size as the HSS Rod.
Bevel the cutting end of the rod so as to 'shear' the card material.
Maybe put a spring on the rod to make it return up.

...or is there a simpler method to make Gozillions of cardstock discs ?

Paying $57 plus shipping, when I have a Drill Press and a Lathe, is not for me.

DoctorBill

[bigdog454]

Harbor freight sells a punch set cheap. I use a 13/16 punch for the 45 colt, I would presume that one of the punches would work for te 45-70.
BD

[DoctorBill]

I presume you mean this for $10 ?

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-hollow-punch-set-67030.html

I am doing that now by hand. See my first post photo.

It is less of a 'punch' and more of a circular cutter.

DoctorBill

[Bent Ramrod]

A guy named Cornell sells a wad punch that mounts in a reloading press. You could probably duplicate his design with a Lee push through sizing die with a saw cut in the side to admit the card stock, and a sharpening and hardening job on the push-through punch.

[DoctorBill]

I looked thru all my metal I had collected for learning on my new ENCO
9" x 20" Lathe and found this old PIN found at a Garage Sale:

http://s19.postimage.org/i4105ers3/Old_Pin_Rod.jpg

It even has a convenient hole at one end !

I realized that, using my Lathe, I can fabricate this:

http://s19.postimage.org/woi308mqr/Reloading_Press_Punch.jpg

by turning the rod down and threading it for 7/8 x 14.

I can drill a 29/64ths hole thru the entire length and use 0.453 inch
Drill Rod I have to do the Punching.

By filing open that hole and flattening it on the top side, I can
push cut Milk Carton (paper board) thru and punch disks which
should come out the top as I go.....on my LEE Reloading Press.

Kind of like Bent Ramrod said previously....and all in one piece.

New project !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I wire brushed off some of the rust and measured the rod
for to be cut off.

http://s19.postimage.org/t0xqgfp5v/Ready_for_Cutting.jpg

Next day - cut rod to desired length and faced off the top end, drilled a guide
hole for Live Center support (Thanks Buckshot !).

http://s19.postimage.org/bmefawpwj/Faced_and_Supported.jpg

Punch Side turned round - i.e. Top Side in the chuck jaws.
Both ends faced and pilot hole drilled.
Reducing the 'Press Threaded End' to 0.870 inch for threading to 7/8 x 14 TPI.

http://s19.postimage.org/9x5c2ua77/Reducing_to_870_in_diameter.jpg

When I first started this Lathe work with my new ENCO Lathe, I was scared to death by it.
Now I am still afraid of it, but getting more aggressive at cutting.
Once I am not afraid of the Lathe, I'll probably get hurt by it....

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

OMG !

I just realized that I don't have to turn the rod down to 7/8 inch dia
to thread it into my LEE Press !

I have an RCBS Press with a 1.25 inch x 12 TPI thread (with a 7/8" insert).

Man, that means a WHOLE LOT LESS turning on the steel rod.....!

More thinking and less doing before the doing gets done (Wrong) !

Later......done turning - got to 1.250 inch diameter. Had to remove a lot of metal...
Have to remind myself to not go too far with the diameter reduction...brain on 'automatic'.

http://s19.postimage.org/b89x787qb/Turn_to_1250.jpg

Will drill the hole thru and then thread the outside to 1.25" x 12 TPI.

Hey guys...am I screwing up anything ? !

DoctorBill

[Southern Son]

Doc, 2 things;

First, I am so jelous of your lathe, man I don't know what I wouldn't do for one of them.

Two, when you get to the end that the wads will be exiting from, perhaps you could put a short tube on that end, something that will let you slip a container on the end (I am thinking a drink bottle like a 500ml coke plastic bottle). That way you can just keep cutting till the bottle is full, and you won't have to pick up wads from all over the floor. You could go the other way, and counter sink the end that the wads will be exiting, and then put a thread that will match the mouth of the plastic bottle, then you could screw the bottle on, fill it up, take the die out of the press (with the bottle still attached), screw the bottle off (with the mouth of the bottle facing up) and still not have to pick up 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 wads off the floor.

[DoctorBill]

I was the same way before I spent the $1,000 !

Southern Son - save your money so's you can buy a Lathe ! Or buy a used one.

Now I want a small Milling Machine. It never ends...the wanting.

I finished getting the threaded portion down to 1.25 inch.
Had to remove a LOT of metal to get there - here are about 1/3 of the cuttings (swarf):

http://s19.postimage.org/47vkpb1nn/Half_the_Cuttings.jpg
That is the 0.453 Drill Rod I will use for the punch rod resting in my waste basket.

If I knew how to do internal threads, I could have used a portion of the
7/8" x 14 Threaded Rod I purchased a while back and just make a cap
to fit over the top.

But still, this is good practice to just make something - learning.

Here I am starting the drilling - starting small and will work up to 29/64ths (0.453").
This is slow - having to stop, back out and remove the chips, then back in....over and over.
Titanium Nitride Coated Drills (from Harbor-Freight).

http://s19.postimage.org/zcac6dlwj/Drilling_the_Hole.jpg

At least I don't have to ask Gary, my machinist friend, to make stuff for me.

However, I have many questions to ask him !

DoctorBill

[Rojelio]

Dr. Bill, I always look forward to your posts. Keep up the good work.:popcorn:

[DoctorBill]

I have drilled thru the entire punch with a 29/64ths (in steps) and am now threading the piece.

Being to Chicken S**t to use the motor even at 300 rpm, I am hand crank threading.
I back off one full turn of the compound and go backwards...no confidence with the threading lever.

http://s19.postimage.org/ad1br8eub/Hand_Threading.jpg

Here is a close-up of the operation.

http://s19.postimage.org/kbmadpo9v/Threading.jpg

I am advancing the compound by 0.003" each time.

The sine of 29° is 0.485, so I am going in by 1.25" and forward by 1.55" (Trigonometry...).

I thought it would be hard to turn the crank with steel, but so far not bad at all !

Note - as I got deeper into the threads, I had to go back to 0.002" on the compound advance
and finally to 0.001" advance - cutting more metal on the leading edge of the 60° tool bit.

So far, so good....doesn't take very long to do it !

DoctorBill

[zuke]

Contact Buckshot and ask him about his cake cutter punch's.

[DoctorBill]

The Die Nut won't thread onto the rod, even though the diameter is proper.

Quandary....then I thought of something.

Is the 60° bit OK...?

I put the 60° gauge on it and it is OK - BUT !

The bit looked square to the work, but was not !

I squared it....

http://s19.postimage.org/rb4xqtdlv/Squaring_the_Tool_Bit.jpg

Now I will run the bit over the threads and hope they are not too screwed up !

Damn !

Later -

Thank God !

All is well again.....fits nicely. Now to make it look pretty like LEE's Dies....lol

http://s19.postimage.org/ani122883/Thank_GOD.jpg

I put ANOTHER reminder in my Lathe Manual about this squaring the bit.

http://s19.postimage.org/iiskgvhur/Reminders_In_Manual.jpg

http://s19.postimage.org/bkxn2eyhv/It_Fits_the_Press.jpg


DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

http://s19.postimage.org/c5vi7g277/Like_Down_Town.jpg

Have to finish making square corners in the 'card strip slide thru', but it works great right now !

The rod is long enough to push the disks out the top.

I drilled, tapped and screwed on a plate on the rod to allow me to pull the cutting rod back down.

Whew...what a project !

But I had a blast and learned something, too !

http://s19.postimage.org/5tgcxlz4z/440_Disk_Cutter.jpg

It is amazing what you can make with an old rusty Machine Pin someone gave to you at
a Garage Sale because they thought it was worthless....

DoctorBill

[Fishman]

Thanks for the write up. Fascinating!

[Rojelio]

Doctor Bill, You da man!

Just a thought, maybe you could cut a rim on the end of your push rod. Then you could use it with a shellholder to pull it back down with the handle.

Roger

[DoctorBill]

Rojelio - I drilled into the bottom of the Push Rod and tapped it.
Then I made an end plate that slides into my RCBS Press slot without any Shell Holder in place.
This allows me to pull the punch rod back down. See Photos here.

The Push or Punch Rod was binding a bit at the top after I filed the Card Paper feed hole open. ????
Maybe holding it in a vice was enough to squeeze that top in a bit ! ?

So I put the rod into my Drill Chuck and honed it in the Punch at the top
with "Mothers Polish". Now it works smooooothly....

I have filed the Card Paper Feed Hole such that I can slide cut strips of Card Material
into the punch. I used square files - in photo. LOT of work !
Stopped where shown for a while - my hands are getting numb !

http://s19.postimage.org/j98fk6dyb/Filing_and_Honing.jpg

Here is a close up of the Card Paper Feed Hole.
BTW - I am not proud of those threads...but they work.
All due to not squaring the 60° Cutting Bit at first - BIG Lesson for me.
Also the RCBS threaded hole had less diameter than the LEE Die Nut, so I had to go
back (getting the work re-centered & back in the chuck was fun...) and cut deeper threads
to fit into the RCBS Press.

http://s19.postimage.org/ebuuz2bz7/Close_Up_Feed_Hole.jpg

That scraper was made by grinding an old triangular file down on all three sides.
It is handy dandy ! Sharp as a razor and will shave metal.
My machinist friend Gary showed me how to make it. (Don't let it get hot !)

All Done - I think...

http://s19.postimage.org/hjzcc3y8z/Done_Deal.jpg

http://s19.postimage.org/ks3tp5kir/Easy_As_Pie.jpg

I will continue filing on that feed hole to enlarge and square it. No hurry.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Now I can be the guy who feeds the machine...

http://s19.postimage.org/tbn7mwsv7/Now_I_Can_Be_a_Machine.jpg

I get several postcard type advertisements and Political Stuff on large cards each day.
Now they can be put to some use !

Feeding my Martini-Henry and 45-70's.

I'll have my friends and my kids save Waxed Milk Cartons for me to cut
into BP Cartridge Disks.

DoctorBill

PS - A year ago, I cootint even spel Laythe, now I be a usin' one of 'em...what will I be a doin' tamarra ?

[Rojelio]

Excellent! Good ole American ingenuity.

Roger

[eric123]

Can you use a de-burred case and a rubber mallet? Drill the primer pocket out so the paper disks can be tapped out of the case...

[DoctorBill]

eric123 - Look at the image in my first post in this thread.
That is a hardened steel punch from Harbor-Freight with a wooden ball
handle that I was using to cut disks. Pushing and twisting - hard.
The large wooden ball helped spread the load on my palm.

Using a mallet did not work out very well.

I wore leather gloves and cut disks out against soft wood or an old Hockey Puck.

Brass is not hard enough in my opinion.
Wouldn't last very long......

It was tiresome work making a hundred disks with that thing in the picture..

That's why I made this punch.

You might try some kind of steel tubing of the appropriate diameter,
but finding the right size is the trick.

Try the punch set at Harbor-Freight (Item # 3838 for $8).
http://www.harborfreight.com/9-piece-hollow-punch-set-3838.html
Keep the edge very sharp !
Don't punch a hole in your leg (doing it on a board while watching Oprah Winfree on TV).

Lot of disks made in a few minutes ! I keep them in a small metal Mint Candy Flip Top Box.
This is from about 1/4 of a Kentucky Fried Chicken Box...already greased, as it were !

I stuck my Hacksaw blade thru the side feed hole, cut a 1/8" slot on both sides
of the top, then put a used blade beside it to widen the slot.
I cut card strips out with an old Model Airplane Bulsa Strip Cutter with a razor Blade
mounted on the side - makes nice straight strips with ease. They feed thru the slot.

http://s19.postimage.org/9uu8bngv7/Lot_of_Disks.jpg

DoctorBill

[nanuk]

Dr Bill

get an old yogurt tub, and cut a hold 1.3 diameter and put it on the press before screwing down your new die...

the tub will catch the disks

[DoctorBill]

Nanuk - I like that ! Good idea ! I save such things - I'll go look right now !

DoctorBill

[jhrosier]

....

Now I want a small Milling Machine. It never ends...the wanting.


Bill,

The Harbor Freight mini mill/drill is on sale, $60 off.

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_11326.jpg

I just ordered one and also used a 20% off coupon code... Got $168 off.

It should be delivered Thursday:grin::grin::grin::grin:

Jack

[DoctorBill]

$432 (plus tax) with the 20% off coupon (I have several in my wallet).....

Hmm....is it worth squat as a Milling Machine ?

Looks like a toy machine.....could it cut thru a paper clip ?

DoctorBill

[jhrosier]

$432 (plus tax) with the 20% off coupon (I have several in my wallet).....

Hmm....is it worth squat as a Milling Machine ?

Looks like a toy machine.....could it cut thru a paper clip ?

DoctorBill

It has specs here: http://www.harborfreight.com/two-speed-variable-bench-mill-drill-machine-44991.html

It is the mate for your mini lathe, light duty, 1/2" end mill = 1" face mill - 8/10 HP motor - 9" x 4" x 8-1/2" travel.

Jack

[mtnman31]

DoctorBill
I noticed in one of your photos an ON/OFF switch mounted on the wall behind your lathe. I don't want to sound like some OSHA safety Nazi, but if that is your ON/OFF switch for the lathe, it is not a very safe set up. You don't want to have to reach across or over your moving work piece to turn the machine on or off. If something goes bad, you don't want to have to think about avoiding the work piece when you need to shut the machine off in a hurry. Imagine your headstock as a nasty, rusty saw blade that you don't want to put your arm over. If that isn't your lathe's power switch, feel free to call me a safety Nazi and disregard my post.

BTW - Nice work on the cutter.

[DoctorBill]

mtnman31 - Someone else told me that same thing and now I agree.

It was such a hassle to put that switch there that I will just put a second
switch (In Series) with that one and put it down on the bench in front on
the right side where I would back off if something happened.

I can hit either one to stop the Lathe.

The switch is a Grizzly switch that they said fit standard metal/plastic
switch boxes - rubbish !

It is about 2mm too big !

But - it's cost was reasonable - so I will go for another one.

Went Garage Sale'ing today and found some more metal stuff for my
Lathe to eat up. Have to feed it.....

Nanuk - the plastic tray idea was good, but it blocks the card strip feed hole.
Too Bad ! I pick each one off and toss it into my candy box - mindless work is
good for you !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I have to share this !

My wife bought a small Chinese made "drill press" on E-Bay to do work
with Jewelry for $64......It came today.

I opened the "Instruction Book" and nearly choked.

Click on the thumbnail to read the "Instructions" !

http://s19.postimage.org/9lueke3vj/Hilarious_Instructions.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/9lueke3vj/)

You gotta like that !

BTW - Work it nicely do for time unknowns by humanly personage of public affairs....

DoctorBill

[Rojelio]

:awesome:

[Southern Son]

Seems good words and stuf like english to.

I really liked the bit that said something like "do not bear body to it"???????? It gets hot in my shed and if I wants to works naked, I will!!! The drill will just have to be less of a prude.

[nanuk]

DrB

here is another thought, after looking at your setup.

use a smaller hole and those super strong rare earth magnets.... make the hole near an end to allow you to move it where you like it, and just magnet the bucket on the top. YOu have lots of flat space up there

[DoctorBill]

Any round disk catcher blocks the Card Strip Feeder slot.

I have some Aluminum Sheet which I may form into a CHUTE that has
a large hole in the top which would let the disks slide down into a bottle.

However, I now just pick the disk off of the punch rod with my left hand
and drop them in a jar lid next to the Press.

No worries - I have already made enough disks to last the rest of my life !
I just make disks over and over and Veg Out.

All round and pretty.....

http://s19.postimage.org/b2fr5hsir/So_Many_Disks.jpg
The "Bulsa Stripper" is from my Radio Control Model Airplane days.
It is for easily cutting bulsa strips of any width from stock bulsa sheets.

http://s19.postimage.org/nv3v5f44j/Picture_of_Disk_Punch.jpg
and never forget who caused 9\11, either.
Pearl Harbor - 2,402 dead and 1,282 wounded. Mostly military
9\11 World Trade Center - 2,975 dead and 6,291+ wounded. almost all civilians.

DoctorBill

[Texantothecore]

Can you use a de-burred case and a rubber mallet? Drill the primer pocket out so the paper disks can be tapped out of the case...

I tried that the other night and it doesn't work. The case won't go through the cardboard. The edges of the case collapsed and turned in.