Lyman 452423 - Specs? Copies? Options?

[Bigslug]

Short version - I WANT Elmer's 238 grain semi wadcutter for my .45ACP's.

Somebody's got to be offering a clone. I ain't findin' it. Help!

[Guesser]

Mountain Molds can make you one in short order, I'm sure others will also. I have and use the Ideal 454423 but I ain't partin' with it.

[MtGun44]

Check MP molds, they may have some in stock. They normally make runs of custom
molds, but sometimes have leftovers. They made a really wonderful clone of this.

Understand that it may not feed or chamber in some semiautos. What model of .45 ACP
are you talking about?

Bill

[jlaudio29]

what is so special about this bullet?

[HARRYMPOPE]

It has shot well in my 45 ACP/Auto-Rim revolvers.

George

[GLL]

I have an old LYMAN 454423. I also honchoed one of the 454423 LEE Group Buys and joined both the NOE and the MP 454423 and 452423 HP Group Buys. All of the Group Buy variations are the 45 2.1 design !

http://www.fototime.com/A89401151EEC6E5/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/EC1743E1362BCF4/medium800.jpg

The 454423 is one of my favorites for .45Auto Rim in revolvers !

If I were searching for a new version for a semi-auto I would call Tom at Accurate Molds and have him make me a custom mold that fit my gun’s specs !

Jerry

[Bigslug]

Ooooooh! Those are purrrrty! And exactly what I'm after.

What would I shoot them out of?

My old man and I would be running them in 1911's - mostly fairly recent production Springfields with the wider, hollow-point friendly ramps on the barrels, but there are older ones not so advanced. We can play musical magazines until we find a type that works.

[runfiverun]

they are designed for the auto-rim or revolver type acp's
they are about 25grs lighter than the 454424

[Bigslug]

According to the excellent Fryxell sticky, Elmer was considering both the Auto Rim wheelguns (crimp groove) and the automatics (short nose for 1911 magazines) when he cooked this thing up.

The 75% meplat IS big, though I don't know that it's any worse for feeding than CorBon's 200 grain "flying ashtrays". Guess I need to beg, borrow, or bribe a handful of slugs to find out before buying a mold, unless someone can report a successful launch.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Char-Gar should be along soon to comment. He has extensive experience with this one!

[Char-Gar]

Bigslug..Somewhere I have the specs that Mountain Molds can use to produce this bullet. Several have used them with good results. Send me your email addy and I will see if I can find them. I think it is a hard copy and may need to be snail mailed. I have not seen it since my last move, but I hope I had good enough sense to put it where it could be found in the packing.

I have been shooting this bullet since about 1961. Some years back, I wrote an article about it, that was published in the Cast Bullet Associations journal The Fouling Shot. John Taffin picked it up and put it on his web site. It is still out there on the web, but I don't have the link.

These bullets will work with MOST throated 1911 barrels, 45 DA sixguns with clips or Auto Rim cases. It will also do well in 45 ACP SA handguns or any handgun in 45 Colt.

The bullet is good to 100 yards and after than the accuracy starts to roll snake eyes.

We have done several group buy clones of this bullet. Perhaps somebody has one they are willing to sell to you.

[AnthonyB]

I think I have some 452423s cast and laying around. Send me a PM and I'll send some samples. They have worked well in every 1911 I have tried them in, not so wekk in my Glock 30.
Tony

[Bluehawk]

MY favorite mold for MY 45 ACPs is an old IDEAL mold marked 452491( HP) mold , throws a nice 200 grain hollow point . Sorry I don't have a pic. I'll be casting with it this weekend .

[GLL]

452423-I Love You !!! The Link to the Char-Gar article! :) :)

Your article is what first prompted me to give that bullet a try in my S&W 25-2 revolvers (.45 Auto Rim)!

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cba.htm

Jerry

[sw282]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=302785464

[Bigslug]

Char-Gar: Thanks! PM Sent. I'll probably troll a few gun shows looking for a mold, but the fact is, I'm gonna want a multi-cavity mold for this one. I can put up with single holers for oddities like my hollow base .455 Brit, but when I get going with the 1911's, volume usually ensues.

Anthony B: Many thanks! After reading Char-Gar's article, I no longer have concerns about ability to make this slug work in a 1911, but if you're willin', the PM is on the way.

I have a feeling Fryxell's book is going to lead to a whole lotta authentic Keith profile molds coming home to live with me - and me probably never buying a factory-produced handgun projectile ever again. UNDERSTANDING. . .IT ROCKS![smilie=w:[smilie=w:

[35remington]

Let me offer a bit of a counterpoint. Please understand this is well intentioned and I don't presume to rain on anybody's parade. I am just recounting my experiences when using this bullet in a 1911.

BS, it's a fun bullet to experiment with, but quite frankly it's not one to rely on when your 1911 has to work. Those concerns should still be present, so don't shelve them just yet.

Some of the machinations to get it to feed don't cater to the 1911's preferences. All the relevant points of impact.....the frame ramp strike, the roof of the chamber, and the magazine release timing and the overall length when seated to function are not precisely the 1911's cup of tea. The ogive is too broad too far forward. The thick front band necessitates deeper seating in the case when used in most 1911's that have standard throats, which is in itself not a good thing. The short overall length when the bullet is seated to clear the lands of the barrel means the bullet's broad flat ogive strikes the feed ramp later than a ball bullet, and the climb up the feed ramp is steeper.....and so is the angle the cartridge has to take to get in the chamber. The 1911 works best with a shallow cartridge approach to the chamber, not a steep one.

I have such a design. It's pretty authentic as to specs. It is indeed a good bullet. But then, I have 45 ACP/Auto Rim revolvers, too, so that helps explain why I have one of these designs. Should I have just a 1911, I'd give things some serious thought first, including trying some samples before buying.

Due to squarish corners on the bands and lube groove of the authentic, Keith approved design, multi cavity moulds often don't release several bullets at one time which requires a lot of whacking on the mould to release them. Guess how I know? Best to deal with two cavities and no more.

It is not a high volume 1911 bullet anyway, even if you manage to get it to feed, so a two cavity mould is more reasonable.

[beagle]

Bigslug....if you just gotta have one, my records show and extra DC. PM me./beagle


Short version - I WANT Elmer's 238 grain semi wadcutter for my .45ACP's.

Somebody's got to be offering a clone. I ain't findin' it. Help!

[Bigslug]

Good intel on the mold dropout, .35Rem - thanks! 2 cavities would at least avoid the 'Bataan Death March' of single cavity casting

I play the gun mechanic game (amazingly enough, for money even!) so your comments about proper timing of the various feed functions are well received and understood. I've experienced feeding issues with lead smear on the top of 1911 chambers from a particular type of soft point which universally caused feeding issues after about three mags, so I know well where you're coming from.

I'll be taking the lengthy history of this bullet into account if difficulties in making it work raise their heads. Elmer was working with GI feed ramps and GI magazines with the slow release tapered lips, so if my more modern, high-speed mags don't do the trick, I will try the retro road. In fact (I am now very glad we had this talk), I may START my experiments with an original spec gun and mags.

[Hank10]

Bigslug....if you just gotta have one, my records show and extra DC. PM me./beagle

If your pistol is throated properly, it'll feed the 423 or the 424 as reliably as anything. For yrs. I shot the 260 gr 424 in 1911s shooting bowling pins in competition, never had any problems with feeding or accuracy. I have a 4 cav. for the 424 and a single for the 423 so I shoot a lot more 424s, great bullets.
H10

[GLL]

Bigslug:

If you would like to try the hollowpoint version I have the MP 453423 and the 455423 HP versions and could send you a hand full.

Jerry

[Bigslug]

Bigslug:

If you would like to try the hollowpoint version I have the MP 453423 and the 455423 HP versions and could send you a hand full.

Jerry

Wow! We've got enablers ALL OVER this forum! :mrgreen:

Looks like Beagle and I may be striking a deal on a two-holer Lyman, but I will definitely consider your offer down the road if I fall in love with the basic platform. If I ultimately end up having a mold made, I might do a reversible/multiple pin setup so hollowpoints would be an option if I wanted them. My brain is currently moving away from expansion and towards penetration in most ballistic reasonings these days, but that may flip. I guess the beauty of a HP-converted Keith SWC is that, in the event the HP fails to expand, it's still a Keith SWC. It's good to have redundancy. . .

[StrawHat]

I got in on the GB run by GLL for a Lee 6 cavity mold. So far, no problems with boolits dropping out of the cavities.

It was Char-Gar's article that got me wanting to try the boolit. I do not own, nor even appreciate the 1911 platform, so all of my boolits are launched from N frames. They work great.

[Bigslug]

In doing further research, it looks like Hensley & Gibbs partnered up with Keith after the falling out with Lyman over driving band diameters and lube groove specs, and brought back his molds in unaltered form. You really have to wonder what Lyman was thinking at the time - pissing off a cantankerous old cowboy who had a HUGE following of his written word.

At any rate, it looks like Ballisti-Cast is now carrying the H&G flag, and can readily
generate any of the old molds.

This has the potential to get expensive. . .:mrgreen:

[Bigslug]

A quick update and further question:

I cooked up my first batch of slugs out of the mold Beagle sent using 9.75BHN/@23-1 range scrap. These cast at 252 grains.

This is the later Lyman mold with the round lube groove, so it stands to reason that they would weigh more than Elmer's original square-groove 238gr, but I'm curious as to what weights other folks are getting. If I like what I get out of these, I'll probably do a custom mold that brings the weight down to a more traditional 230. Stay tuned!