Whiterabbits Matchdot test pt1.

[subsonic]

Rabbit has been fighting his BFR for a while and has had some results that lead him to beleive his Matchdot could be done-for.

This is part one of the testing I said I'd do for him.

This is a rifle in this test, but please leave it in this forum as pt2 will be a handgun and this is related to a problem with a handgun....

I have a Savage TR .22lr that drives tacks. It (I?) actually wasn't shooting as well as I know it can today during testing. It has a 10x Super Sniper fixed power scope on it.
I fired a group with the scope at 25yds with one of the best kinds of ammo it likes (that I can afford), Wolf Match Target. It always throws a shot high and left with a cold bore. Can't figure out why, but I rule them out because it will always throw them there with a cold bore.

After firing that group at the top of the diamond (group 1) I pulled the scope and mounted his MatchDot and set the dot size to 4". I wasn't planning on sighting it in, only shooting a group if it was on paper. It was way low on the target below the one I was sighting on, no big deal. This group is group 2 on the target sheet to the left at the top of the page, and might be a hair smaller than the first group I fired with the scope. I then pulled the MatchDot and put the scope back on and fired another group to check that it hadn't lost zero. This is group 3 at the bottom of the diamond.

As you can see, the MatchDot passed this test, (and maybe debunked the myth that you need magnification to shoot small groups up close).

Now part 2 we're going to introduce some recoil.....

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/P82507352.jpg

[gray wolf]

Nice report, thank you.
I have never had a problem with a red dot shooting small groups up to 50 yards,
They shoot as good as a scope, remember that 4 MOA red dot is about 1 MOA
at 25 yards and about 2 MOA at 50 yards 4 MOA at 100.
I have also noticed that if I adjust the brightness of the dot just right, I can see through it and the black target shows like a shadow under it.
Makes it very easy to keep the dot centered.

[35remington]

The high and left with a cold bore is a lubricant related 22 issue for me rather than a cold bore issue. For me it's the difference in bore condition from the first shot to the second.

Which is why I take a sighter shot immediately before a hunt in the field when using a .22 so the first round doesn't miss. For all subsequent shooting, at least that done on the same day, the shots are in the group.

[subsonic]

The high and left with a cold bore is a lubricant related 22 issue for me rather than a cold bore issue. For me it's the difference in bore condition from the first shot to the second.

Which is why I take a sighter shot immediately before a hunt in the field when using a .22 so the first round doesn't miss. For all subsequent shooting, at least that done on the same day, the shots are in the group.

The rifle only sat for the amount of time it took me to get a soda and switch the scope, and in the lower group #3, you can see the first round did it again. No cleaning between groups or anything. My step son had already fired about 30rds of the same ammo in this rifle less than an hour before I fired these groups. It's not JUST lube. I think it has to do with the TEMP of the lube. His rifle (regular Savage MKII) does it with this ammo as well. My Anschutz 64 also did it with some brands of ammo.

[subsonic]

Nice report, thank you.
I have never had a problem with a red dot shooting small groups up to 50 yards,
They shoot as good as a scope, remember that 4 MOA red dot is about 1 MOA
at 25 yards and about 2 MOA at 50 yards 4 MOA at 100.
I have also noticed that if I adjust the brightness of the dot just right, I can see through it and the black target shows like a shadow under it.
Makes it very easy to keep the dot centered.

I've tried turning it down that low, and it all looks like a swirly fuzzball to my eye. I have to have the dot bright enough to be "sharp" and it has to have some white behind it for me. Red on black makes it hard for my eyes to make out the edges. I think maybe for the same reason that they use red lighting to preserve night vision.

[Whiterabbit]

I'm looking forward to what happens when recoil is introduced. Another member here said he had no issues with 22 either but major issues with even mildly recoiling rifles (he had the benefit of cowitness for proof-positive which I don't have!). It also corroborates what the factory claimed (no problems found) with targets attached with tiny holes.

I definitely want to see what happens when larger holes are used. :)

[RobsTV]

I'm looking forward to what happens when recoil is introduced. Another member here said he had no issues with 22 either but major issues with even mildly recoiling rifles (he had the benefit of cowitness for proof-positive which I don't have!). It also corroborates what the factory claimed (no problems found) with targets attached with tiny holes.

I definitely want to see what happens when larger holes are used. :)
That would be me.

Ruger 22/45 MKII worked perfect.
S&W 500 not able to hold zero.
Hi-Point 4095 TS (40 S&W pistol round in a tactical carbine style), not able to hold zero, and easily seen with cowitness stock iron sights.

However, after paying the required $20 to $25 to have the "new" red dot replaced under their lifetime warranty (also original purchaser only, which luckily I was), similar issues still existed. I can not say for certain Red Dot was defective, or at least other things might have contributed.

Sent the 500 back to S&W, where they replaced the frame. Ultra Dot now seems better.

Rail flexed a little on the 4095TS, and also Warne QD rings to rail could never get real tight. Replaced with aluminum rail. Flex was fixed, but "rings to rail" never fully tight. Warne sent me out 2 new sets of rings instantly, but same thing. Gave up on the Ultra Dot with 4095TS, since whole point was to use it on a few weapons with QD rings. Now just use a 4x scope with the same Warne rings and original rail, and it works perfect. For some reason the 4x simmons scope tube works better with that combo than the UD tube. Rings to rail now do tighten with a little room to spare. The 500 had a Warne rail, so ring tightness was never an issue with the 500.

The Ultra Dot warranty service left a lot to be desired, and based on what I experienced, I would not use the Lifetime Ultra Dot warranty as a basis for choosing the UltraDot. (note that they use 3rd party service centers, and seems do not stick with same one for long, so what might have been fine a year ago, might be different today).

[44man]

I use nothing but a fixed dot for my Ultra Dots. I just do not trust anything that changes pictures or dot sizes.
Rings and bases can be a problem too.
The thing to look for with the Match Dot is if it changes POI with a dot size change.

[jh45gun]

I have had no issues with my Bushnell Trophy red dot with keeping zero. I got a Tasco that was on a 12 gauge and no issues there either.

[Whiterabbit]

^^^ would be nice if I could say the same. Would have saved me lots of lead, powder, aggravation, shipping costs, primers, range fees, and more.

[44man]

^^^ would be nice if I could say the same. Would have saved me lots of lead, powder, aggravation, shipping costs, primers, range fees, and more.
Been there, done that! :veryconfu I have broken more stuff then you can imagine. Now on SS, I can not afford what does not work. I have a real fear myself. Just how does one pick a good thing?
Even Ultra Dot does not make everything to stand the horrendous recoil of big bore revolvers. I still pick the simple and the tough.

[35remington]

subsonic, if it throws flyers with only a short cooling time between shots for the first shot all the time......I wouldn't be very happy. That's not a hunting gun for sure. Every shot at squirrels would be high and left.

That would drive me nuts, and I count my blessings that my rifles are not so afflicted.

It certainly would be worth it to find ammo that does not do that, if it is possible. I can't see any of that ammo pictured as being useful, but then I judge everything .22 long rifle related in a "squirrel hunting" equivalent.

Can't help it. It's the limb chicken hunter in me.

[subsonic]

I just dial 6moa up and 3moa left when I hunt. Then I blow their brains out. Some would say I'm waisting the best part....

[44man]

I just dial 6moa up and 3moa left when I hunt. Then I blow their brains out. Some would say I'm waisting the best part....
Yeah. My hunting buddy from Tennessee would get mad when I head shot them.
It is the fear of those prions today that eat your brain but I am so old, who cares?

[35remington]

Yeah, but what happens when you get another shot shortly thereafter, as so often occurs on a hunt? I've shot seven squirrels from one spot without moving, and the last six would have been all misses.

While seven from one spot is my record, it's not uncommon to shoot 2 to 4 of them without moving from one location.

Sorry for the semi-hijack.

[Whiterabbit]

Subsonic,

If you haven't already, it might help to take the matchdot past 25 yards, especially for the big bore test.

[odoh]

Subsonic/Rabbit ~ Is your MatchDot the new all black MatchDot II or the ol' original silver & black one?

I arrived late and may've missed some details

[Whiterabbit]

ol original.

[Old Caster]

I got my Matchdot back today which was right at 6 weeks. It was on a Les Baer 45 with a frame mount so it wasn't subjected to as much recoil as if it were mounted on the slide but it would move all of a sudden maybe 12 inches or so sideways and then group the same place for a while. When moved for the new sight setting it would last 50 rounds or so and then move back. Well, the bottom line is that I have no idea what they did or didn't do to it. I too received a target that looked like it was shot with a rimfire gun and it doesn't say how far but just my name at the bottom and the phrase 10 shot. The dumbest thing of all is that the dot was left on in the number 6 position. I spent about $20 to have not only nothing done but a half dead battery in the process with no explanation. I was initially reluctant to buy a matchdot because I heard so many people had problems but the lack of parallax was the thing that really attracted me to buy two of them for bullseye shooting plus the Tasco Propoint is no longer available like it was years ago. I have recomended the Matchdot because I don't know what else is available but I am taking my recomendation back. Too many are having problems and not getting them fixed, and shooting a failing scope with a 22 long rifle isn't the way to test it. Someone at the range today had a Bushnell red dot and it looked fine and the price was way lower than the Matchdot. I think I will try one and see how it is. The price of the scope was about one third the price of the Matchdot.

[subsonic]

I am planning to test with something bigger than a .22. But I wasn't going to bother testing with a big gun if it failed on a .22. I need an accurate gun to test it on - but I don't want to mess up my current zero on my .475 BFR this close to hunting season (I have other guns I still need to get zeroed and a load worked for for my wife and son) and I haven't dialed in the .500JRH all the way yet to where I can say it is the red-dot or the gun. Give me a week or two....

[44man]

I have had trouble pulling the prizms on Bushnell dots. Just the .44, heavy gun with 10" barrel. I steel bedded them back in.
Last season I missed a deer, it spun around and I took another shot at her ribs and hit her in the neck. I noticed I had some trouble finding the dot.
I shot at paper and missed the whole target. I took the front of the Bushnell apart and didn't find anything, the glass was still tight too.
I wonder if it is the spring that pushes against the adjustments but I could not remove the back tube, I had it on too tight.
These things are simple, the inner tube with the prizm is mounted in flexible rubber at the front and a spring pushes it sideways against the adjustments. The diode is at the rear and glued in place so it shines down the tube. Wires run to the switch.
Look in the back with a flashlight and you get an idea.
The dot is back to center after I put the front back on but I don't trust it now. I put a 30mm Ultra Dot on the .44.
Some Burris scopes use a double force suspension spring with a lock to hold the tube against the adjustments. These dots need that.

[Whiterabbit]

well, I'm gonna have a way to further confirm whether it's operator vision issues.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/20082504d410e6090e.jpg

1x eer, just enough eye relief to work with my orangutan arms. Need a week or so to get it to the range and see. Hopefully it'll hold up to the recoil too. Would be nice to be able to try different sights at will at the range.

[44man]

I recently shot a sub 1" group at 100 with the Ultra Dot on my 45-70 BFR and since I never made any hunting boolits for it, I put the Loopy 4X scope on it to play out to 200.
I am not getting as good a group. :holysheep

[Whiterabbit]

I still want to see how my UD does with real recoil.

[Old Caster]

I sent my post to Matchdot warranty and they said that they talked to the "tech" that checked my scope and he said that he had found that my scope did not hold zero and fixed it. The paper that I wrote which explained what was wrong with my scope just had hand written on it" Adjusted & Shot 10 rounds are within 2 " and nothing more. They offered for me to send it back for free if I thought it still doesn't work and they would give me a new battery. What I really want is for them to do the work right first and explain that it was fixed (If it really is). I don't want to take off the other scope while I have competitions every week and re sight the gun in to just find out nothing has been done because it doesn't work to just bench rest and sight in because that isn't the true zero that a person will have while standing up with one hand and it will take several hundred rounds to feel confident that the zero is right. If mine truly was fixed, I wonder if White Rabbit's scope was also and you now won't find anything wrong with it. Did they actually say, "no problem found" or was it an ambiguous answer like mine was. This is all very interesting because other fellow bullseye shooters, that I know are quality shooters and know what they are doing, have had the same results where the scope is sent in and not fixed. Tomorrow I will decide what to do and write Matchdot back.

[Whiterabbit]

I sent a written letter with the issues, there were I think five issues I asked them to address.

Under the "does not hold zero" issue, they hand wrote "no problem found, see targets". They supplied two targets that looked like they were shot with an airgun, at least 2" groups, 10 rounds each. I attached photos of them on the forum here.

[44man]

I don't think dot and scope makers really understand WHAT we are shooting them on.
We should get together and tell them to use a REAL gun.

[Old Caster]

White rabbit, If you can come up with a slide mounted 1911 45 it would be a good test. While the revolvers can develop way more recoil, when the scope is slide mounted it gets recoil both ways. When the slide goes back, it is much faster than just the frame which is held by the hand and when it hits the rear and stops it gets just the opposite. I am still waiting for a reply from M D and I am now wondering whether they actually fixed it or just tested it and are now claiming they fixed it. They are very unprofessional in their actions.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't do semi-automatic guns. But I thank every owner of those things for keeping the DOJ and ATF and Bradys and HSUS etc etc etc off my back, comparatively.

[44man]

I have been going nuts for a few days with my 4X Loopy too. I put it on my 45-70 BFR---mild recoil. I sighted it dead on at 100 after much hair pulling and half a box of loads.
I shot a nice group before quitting to find it is 6" high all of a sudden.
The last gun it was on was the .500 JRH, did something happen?
I am right there with you fellas and want to cuss like crazy.

[Old Caster]

There aren't enough types of revolvers to be had so I had to have a bunch of auto's also. Glad to be of service to everyone. -- Bill --

[Whiterabbit]

44man, I think one of your long frame BFR's has a rail that doesn't extend over the barrel, is that true? Did you just mill off the front?

[44man]

44man, I think one of your long frame BFR's has a rail that doesn't extend over the barrel, is that true? Did you just mill off the front?
That is the 45-70. I bought it before they had bases. I made the base and drilled and tapped the gun.
The frame is so long I didn't need overhang.
My .475 did not come with a base either but MR sent me one free. I had to drill the gun. I also have a ring out on the overhang and it has been no problem. The base is stiff and any flex does not bend it.
I have seen marks on barrels from them but mine has stayed accurate.
Cheap bases can bend and stay bent.