45-70 Leading

[Red Sky]

Well, I finally got around to testing the boolits I started casting a couple weeks ago (my first run at this) out of my Marlin 1895. Result was disaster...I've been trying to remove the leading for the last 6 hours and there's still a decent bit left (probably down enough that shooting some jacketed stuff will clear the rest). Leading was heavy throughout the bore and some on the throat area. With all the internet talk of Choreboy pads making easy work of lead, I must say I wonder what sort of twisted definition of "easy" is being used.

Regardless of the cleaning process, however, I'd like to get down to solving the problem. I did a lot of reading about what does and does not cause leading, and what steps to take to prevent it. As such, I decided NOT to quench my Rotometals Hardball alloy (started with a premixed alloy to remove one variable, BHN 16). I left the boolits unsized as they dropped from the mold at .461", a size that every thread about the 1895 recommends. I used Lee Liquid Alox lube in what I thought to be plentiful quantity compared to the videos on the subject I found on Youtube. These were run at ~1525 fps with 33 grains of Accurate 5744, as this was an even amount for the only usable Lee dipper I had (.5cc used 5x per cartridge gets annoying and my set hasn't come in yet). I do not have a chronograph, so that fps and my guess at pressure of ~25k psi is via interpolation of load data.

I must have missed something, somewhere. 1525fps is probably on the hot side, but practically all of the commercial boolits are advertised as being good for up to 1600fps with the same BHN. Perhaps my alloy is not actually that hard (I have no tester)? Should I quench them for higher hardness (estimated around 28 from reports I have found)? Perhaps I did not use enough lube? There was no "lube star" at the muzzle, but nor was there a lead one - the lead was perfectly content to just clog my barrel to the point of shooting 20ft groups at 100yards. I literally had a couple shots hit the dirt well below the target stand, and I've NEVER been off the paper with this gun before.

Any help is appreciated. I've read some of the sticky guides here but nothing seems to stand out as an obvious answer, so I figured I would ask before stumbling myself into another weekend long cleaning job. Thanks!

[Plinkster]

Two things I would start with in this situation, the first is that too much of the Lee mule snot is not a good thing. At least in my 45 acp this is the case and I've read it multiple times so if you really want to use the liquid alox use so little that you can barely tell its there, 2 coats works good for me and I can't even see the first one. And the second is the speed, I have no idea if your numbers are right but lets assume they are. You would be at the very upper ceiling of what liquid alox is able to handle. I would recommend getting some of Lar's white label BAC, it should perform well for this application. Of course this means you'll have to pan lube or get a lube sizer or even hand lube. Your alloy hardness should be fine, Roto has a good reputation and if they say it's 16 it probably is. The size is probably ok but without a bore slugging it really is just an educated guess. The only other advice I have is for removing the leading and that would be to try some O'cedars brand copper scrubber wrapped around a brush and run it dry, works very fast to me but it also sounds like you have a lead mine in there. The copper scrub does work best dry though, any solvent tends to lube and while it will come out I feel this slows the scrubbing. Good luck and keep at it my first attempts rarely work either so know you aren't alone!

[curator]

Rule #1 with cast boolits: every rifle is a rule unto itself. If your Marlin has the old 12 groove rifling it might shoot better at slightly less velocity. Say around 1350 + or-. .461 may be yet too small requireing a boolit of .462 or .463 if these would chamber. You do not mention the weight of yor slug, or the design. Your gun's throat and the boolit's ogive may be incompatible. How you seat the slug in relation to the rifling's leade may also be an issue particularly if the boolit has a long "jump" before engaging the rifling. (more time for hot gasses to leak by and erode lead form the slug's sides) Flat based boolits at 1500+ fps often need a wad under them to avoid gas cutting at higher velocities/pressures. Try a HDP or thick felt wad, or work up a load using a filler like plastic shot buffer or cream of wheat cereal. Lastly, your bore may be rough or have tight/lose spots in it. These can be removed by careful fire-lapping.

[Maven]

Red Sky, I have a ca. 1992 Marlin 1895 with Microgroove rifling and use a plain base CB sized to .459" and get no leading to speak of. On occasion, i.e., when I can get it, I also use 5744. Three suggestions: Try sizing to .460" or even .459"; drop the powder charge to 26 or 27 grs. 5744; and experiment with a different lube. I'd experiment with the lower charge first, btw.

[00buck]

Is that a Gas Checked boollet or plain base?

[Larry Gibson]

Is that a Gas Checked boollet or plain base?

+ another, what is the specific bullet?

Larry Gibson

[rexherring]

Also, the boolits take a couple weeks after air cooling to fully harden to the advertized BHN.

And, Welcome to the forum.

[Red Sky]

Thanks everybody, my apologies on the lack of information - apparently I was a bit sleepy when I posted and missed some pretty important stuff.

The bullet is a plain base, 405gr from the Lee mold. The rifle is a new 2012 production from the Remington factory, I decided to grab it when I realized it had none of the issues that plagued many of them before the shutdown in the latter part of 2011. It does not have the microgroove rifling.

So far, things I can try are (in no particular order):
1. Different Lube
2. Reduced charge
3. Filler/Wad
4. Adjust seating depth

And those O'Cedar things are exactly what I was using (same as Choreboy and cheaper) - but I was trying to soak in CLP first, so that may be my problem. Regardless, I now have it mostly clean and am going to blast the rest out with some jacketed rounds (I have some minimum loads to start with, leading is minor enough now to be safe).

I will try to grab a sinker weight and slug the bore today as well, it may help answer some of the questions. Is there anything else I'm missing? Thanks again!

[btroj]

Are you seeing lumps of lead in the bore or just a grey colored wash near the muzzle?

Antimony wash is rarely an issue and will not often cause any issues. Lumps of lead in the bore are another story.

I would use a softer alloy and a better lube. I have a Marlin and I findit difficult to make it lead. Plain base bullets at 1700 will give some leading after 20 rounds or so.

[Red Sky]

I don't know if I would describe it as "lumps" as it seemed smooth throughout, but it did reduce my accuracy to a level I didn't believe possible, so it certainly was an issue. I'll definitely try picking up another lube today, depending on what's available at the store I use. Thanks!

[btroj]

I have never had issues getting rid of leading using a bore bush of the proper size, worn is fine, and some chore boy.
If you run a snug patch thru the bore can you feel resistance at the points with the build up?

I would look at one of the White Laebl lubes. They are a site sponsor, have great products, and really good prices. I have used Carnuba Red with very good results in my Marlin.

I wuld also try a softer alloy. A hard alloy can be a problem if it gets q little squeeze down in a rig spot. I have had as much leading with too hard as I have with too sof. It is about finding a balance. I shot 13 or so BHN plain bases at 1700 for a bear hunt. Plenty hard to give 20 accurate sorts before lead built up and the bullets who great. They were also soft enough to not be brittle yet hard enough to not flatten out if I hit a shoulder.

Itis all about balancing pressure, alloy, lube, and fit to eliminate leading. Too much or too little of any one can cause issues. Sometimes a lack in one can be made up for by once pressing another but not always.

[Red Sky]

Thanks! I'll try the alloy too - do you think 2/3 hardball + 1/3 pure would be good? I don't have any pure stock right now but surely I can find some. I'll give that lube a try as well.

Something not well discussed it seems is a testing procedure for this sort of situation. Obviously I'm going to need to test these changes with some methodology, but I want to avoid another massive buildup that takes hours to clean as well. Does anyone have any suggestions for a process for this?

I will be shooting the rifle again today with some jacketed rounds to finish cleaning it, then will slug the bore and re-lube some of my current stock. From there, I plan to adjust my seating depth using a marker (not sure what yet) on the bullet to see how it is being imprinted upon while chambering a dummy round. From there, I'll try loading with a wad or filler depending on what I can find, and a reduced charge. Does this sound like a good approach, or am I missing a step that might prove useful/necessary?

Also, does anyone have suggestions for how to go about testing these loads without ending up with a monster cleaning job again?

Thanks again everyone!

[runfiverun]

cut the powder back.
going past about 1400 fps is generally a disaster for me in rifle calibers.
i can do it in my revolver cartridge leverguns fine but for some reason the 375 win,bottle necked cartridges, and the 45/70 give me grief over 1400 fps with plain based boolits.
i don't get leading but i generally have horrible accuracy.

[looseprojectile]

I would start with ten less grains of that powder and use a card wad and dacron.
Then I would add a grain at a time to see where the lube fails. [leading starts to happen].
Gas checks and sized and lubed boolits of the correct alloy are necessary for the velocities you are attempting.
Also try adding a coat of JPW to your Aloxed boolits. [Does wonders].

I use 23 grains of SR 4759 with a card wad and dacron with plain base 425 grain boolits in my 45 70 Pedersoli roller and start to get leading at that velocity, about 1300 FPS. [BHN of 9].

Welcome to Cast Boolits and don't give up, you'll get it right.


Life is good

[Gray Fox]

One thing to add; I don't know if shooting jacketed will clean your bore of the remaining lead, but most importantly, use a good copper bore cleaner to get rid of any remaining jacket material fouling before you shoot the lead again. If there is any of that left in the bore you may well end up with more lead fouling the second time than you had the first.

Another thought would be that once you do get the bore really clean use some J-B bore cleaning compound to polish up that new bore. I used it on my recently purchased .45-70 guide gun and it really slicked the bore up. Don't overdo it, but just polish it.

I hope these thoughts help, as I know that each rifle is different, and new barrels usually take a break in period just like a new car's engine does. GF

[btroj]

I would reduce powder charge to get into the 1400 fps Rangel better yet, go to 2400 and use 22 to 24 gr with some dacron filler.

I would also cut the hardball 50/50 with pure lead and go from there. Even cutting it 25/75 with range scrap would help. I run most of my 45-70 bullets in he 12-14 BHN range. Most of them are cast from straight range scrap and they work pretty darn good.

Unlike Run I have had very good sucess with my Marlin at 1700 to 1800 fps. It just doesn't get those loads much because I don't find them enjoyable. I prefer my 24 gr of 2400 no filler and a 420 plain base. Shoots very well and is comfortable enough to shoo 50 or more in a day.

[Freightman]

45/70 give me grief over 1400 fps with plain based boolits.
i don't get leading but i generally have horrible accuracy.


Me to my shoulder hurts for a week! vRed Sky you say you are shooting Jacketed bullets in the 45/70? did you get "ALL" the copper out? lead and copper are not compatible!

[chuebner]

I have been casting several different bullets for my friend's 1895 Marlin since he is not set up to do it. My alloy is about 12-15 BHN. Bullets are the Lyman 457124, Lee 405HB and Lee 457-340F. All bullets are pan lubed with Emmerts or Bullshops NASA lube and sized to .459. He loads these over 12gr. Unique or 18gr. 5744, basically trapdoor velocities of 1050-1100 fps. These bullets all shoot sub 2" groups at 100yd. Never had a leading problem. I believe you are driving them too fast and stripping the bullet on the micro groove rifling. Just a thought.

Charlie

[Larry Gibson]

Drop back to 28 gr 5744 and try that with the PB'd bullet........or drop back to 25 gr and ad a 1 gr dacron filler and work up in 1/2 gr incrments until accuracy goes south again.

Larry Gibson

[looseprojectile]

One other thing ------ I always season the bores of the guns I have cleaned squeeky clean.
I use TC bore butter. It may be my perception but my bores are easy to clean even when they lead. The lead comes out with just a tight patch, all at once.


Life is good

[btroj]

Use a good lube and seasoning isn't required.
I also really get to "squeaky clean". Ran one wet, two dry thru my Marlin 357 today. Looked down the bore, looked good so that was all it got.

[Red Sky]

Thanks everyone. I just got home to clean the rifle from shooting today, but the jacketed rounds fortunately did the trick and cut through the rest of the lead that my elbow grease didn't. I grabbed some fishing sinkers to slug the bore with once I get it clean, and hopefully can then decide whether I need to start sizing or open up the mold a bit. I'm also going to pick up some pure lead asap and cast 50/50 to bring the hardness down a bit, per suggestions.

Would toilet paper work as filler? I've heard of people using this and have no dacron at the moment. I'll also try the 28gr load (thanks Larry) without filler to see how it goes.

As far as proper bullet seating depth goes, what should I be looking for exactly? This should be the easiest thing for me to adjust, so I'd hate to lose the benefit of correctly performing this step.

It may have been a big part of the problem, as Freightman mentioned, that my barrel was not clean enough from prior jacketed rounds. Hopefully I can get efficient at the proper level of cleaning as I intend to get the most versatility out of this rifle possible and will be shooting some of both (though not in the same range session). Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate the data and advice. I'm going to get this rifle clean and slug the bore. I'll post what I find.

[Rico1950]

"Would toilet paper work as filler? I've heard of people using this and have no dacron at the moment"

Instead of the TP, find an old cushion, stuffed animal toy or pillow. Most likely filled with Dacron polyester.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

There are a number of powders that work well in 45/70. I found that 3031 works for me and I've stuck with it. I started with around 1200-1300 fps for the Lyman 405 grain bullet. You can of course go higher depending on your needs and accuracy, but the recoil level also goes up with increased MV. 1500FPS and higher will work you over and tire you out. Also try switching to another lube or two as that may make a difference. A change in sizing diameter sometimes helps as well. It may take some tinkering with these variables to get things right so be patient and keep working at it. If you use Jacketed bullets be sure and scrub-a- dub to clean the bore really well before shooting cast and visa-versa. LLs

[mehavey]

Would toilet paper work as filler? [ or dacron?]I recommend no "filler" at all -- other than a complete fill with cream of wheat (no airspace at all) -OR- the barest/smallest itsy-bitsy-est lightest tuft of natural kapok that will simply hold the powder generally toward the back of the case. You want nothing that won't be consumed (not melted into a glob like dacron) in an instant.

For what it's worth, I recommend SR4759 or AA5744 for what the OP wants. Both reasonably fill the case by design; neither are position dependent for ignition; both give the optimal velocity range for the 45-70 shooting lead in the Marlin.
http://i49.tinypic.com/scgad0.jpg

[Red Sky]

I love the economy and general power level I can get with AA5744 so far, but may try some others as well. I'm not worried about recoil - the jacketed rounds I've shot have mostly been Speer 400g @ 1750-1800fps using Varget, and the recoil is just part of the fun at the range for me. I intend to hunt with this rifle in the future as my first hunting rifle (chosen because I love the versatility and power of the 45-70 and wanted an "only rifle" for the time being), and hope to tailor my loads for the game in question.

Found some residual leading that the jacketed rounds didn't get out so I'm working on that right now. Apparently I need better cleaners as well. Any recommendations to replace my Breakfree, particularly for copper and/or lead removal? Gun lube suggestions more than welcome as well, though I'm happy using Rem Oil if I don't use the CLP unless something is particularly better.

Since I have no pure lead on hand at the moment I am going to start troubleshooting with the issues other than alloy hardness, and work my way to that as I eliminate other factors.

[Jim]

I recommend no "filler" at all -- other than a complete fill with cream of wheat (no airspace at all) -OR- the barest/smallest itsy-bitsy-est lightest tuft of natural kapok that will simply hold the powder generally toward the back of the case. You want nothing that won't be consumed (not melted into a glob like dacron) in an instant.

For what it's worth, I recommend SR4759 or AA5744 for what the OP wants. Both reasonably fill the case by design; neither are position dependent for ignition; both give the optimal velocity range for the 45-70 shooting lead in the Marlin.
http://i49.tinypic.com/scgad0.jpg

With all due respect, kapok does not work as a locator. It has no memory and therefore has no 'spring'. Kapok's best application is in 'topping off' a less than normal load in a cartridge, but it requires that the space be filled with it.

Dacron, on the other hand, does have memory and will 'spring' back to original size when stuffed in a case as a locator.

There's a big difference between a powder locator and a case filler. If you're interested, HERE (http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Kapok.pdf) is a link to an article in CastPics on using Kapok.

[btroj]

Dacron is not melted into a glob. I can tell you that for certain. I have used a bit much in my 45-70 at times and I can pick up tufts of it off the ground. Other than being slightly discolored it is the same as when I went into the case.

Why can't this myth just go away?

[WHITETAIL]

Red Sky Welcome to the forum!:redneck:

[mehavey]

With all due respect, kapok does not work as a locator.

If it doesn't, I must have been in error for 40 years. ;)
And I only use it at that "locating role" -- not as a filler.
All I care about is uniform ignition/position, not fill.

For those so interested:
http://www.whitelotus.net/organic-case-kapok-pillows/
(one of which is in front of me now on the dining room table w/a few threads picked apart at a corner so to get "a little springy [smilie=w: tuft at a time.")

http://i46.tinypic.com/fm3m78.jpg

[WHITETAIL]

After you clean the lead out of your gun.
Try one patch of JPW down the bore.
As far as a load for your 45-70.
Try 37gr. of IMR 4198
Lyman Gould 330gr. HP
At a OAL 2.540:holysheep

[Jailer]

Red Sky skip the fillers and start with a reduced load until you get your leading issue figured out. You need fewer variables while working this out not more.

My Marlington 1895SBL works great with my Accurate 405gr PB sized to .460 and 30gr of IMR4198. Alloy is 50/50 WW and pure and accuracy is fantastic with this load.

[Jim]

After you clean the lead out of your gun.
Try one patch of JPW down the bore.
As far as a load for your 45-70.
Try 37gr. of IMR 4198
Lyman Gould 330gr. HP
At a OAL 2.540:holysheep

When I'm done shooting a cast boolit rifle, it gets cleaned. After cleaning, I patch the bore to insure it's dry. I then apply a coat of a 50/50 mix of mineral spirits and White Label Xlox with a patch. The rifle is left in a barrel down position with the bolt open so the coating will dry.

I believe this acts as a protective coating and I also think it kinda' preps the barrel for the next shoot.

[725]

Wow! Tons of good info. I'll be brief:
Clean bore - I use janitorial strength (10%) ammonia available from True Value Hardware to attack copper. Repeated cleanings.

"Lead Away" cloth. Works wonders and is truely fast. Cut patches.

.................and what everybody else said.

Good luck. Don't get frustrated. You're close.

[1Shirt]

TP works, but there is a possibility of range fires, and for us in the drought area this is a real and present possibility. Have used dac fill for a number of years in a number of ctgs, and as BTroj says, no melting. Use just enough however to just loosely fill the space between the powder and the base of the boolit. Not a recommendation on my part due to the controversy regarding fill, just what I do.
1Shirt!

[Larry Gibson]

I've used TP in the past and ruined a nice pair of sneakers stomping out a couple fires one day...........:sad:

I've also used kapok and had no problems with it. I switched to dacron in the late 60's though and haven't used anything else except for testing different fillers. It is easy to work with, especially if you get it as "batting" and cut it into strips/chuncks of the appropriate size. I've shot untold thousands of rifle loads with a dacron filler including many 45-70s (I have 4 of them currently) and havenever had a melted glob.

I ran a test a year or two back for the SS forum using different fillers including COW. COW raises pressures far more than dacron.

I suggest a reading of the sticky "filler" for some very good information. The load posted above with the 27 gr 4759 is one that doesn't need the filler as most often 28 gr 5744 doesn't either. The psi's of both are high enough that they burn efficiently. This is especially the case in the 45-70 with 400+ gr bullets intended for the leverguns. The nose is short and the bearing surface long. This means that more of the bullet is inside the case and case capacity is also reduced giving more efficient burning to smaller charges of 4759 and 5744.

With those bullets seated out for use in SSs the case capacity is increased and burning efficiency decreases. then you then get into the area where the filler is benificial. Thus we see that many times what works for one situation may very well not work for another.

Larry Gibson

[Red Sky]

Thanks again everyone! I'm still struggling with getting the rest of this lead out to get an accurate measurement from slugging the barrel, so will probably make another quick trip to the store to see what's available for lead cleaning. Those cloths look promising, but when I read about them it seems they destroy bluing, so I will probably need to find something else. I know for a fact, however, that they have Shooter's Choice copper and lead removers as well as the cloths. Does anyone have any experience with those?

My current plan at this point is to thoroughly clean the bore, adjust my seating depth (found a guide here in a sticky that is wonderful!) and reduce the charge. I ordered some White Label lube (2500) which I will try as soon as it arrives. Until then, I am stuck with LLA. Is there anything else I should try on this second attempt, or should I leave it at that and test before moving on?

[Northerner]

I shoot a 500 grain GC bullet with a wax lube (SPG/Orange Magic/whatever is in my sizer) over in front of 32 grains IMR 4198. Sized to .459. I have to use Starline brass to get it to chamber. Remmington and Winchester are too thick for mine. I've never had an issue with leading using this load from the Lyman 49th Handbook.

It averages 1400 fps.

The bullet alloy is ww with enough tin for a good fill out.

I agree with Curator about keeping it slow. My first attempts with lighter bullets at higher speeds were disasters for accuracy and leading.

[Red Sky]

Well, after more thorough cleaning and examination, this project may be on hold for some time. It seems the rifling shallows out near the muzzle to near non-existence on one side of the bore. Odd because it was completely unnoticeable on my inspection in the store and subsequent use and cleaning, and the rifle has been quite accurate (~2 MOA). However, I'm fairly certain that it cannot possibly be as accurate as it should be while the rifling at the muzzle is messed up to that level, so it will be going back to the shop for warranty repair.

Hopefully it comes back in less than months and actually rectified on the first try, unlike some other experiences I've read about. I'm going to give them a chance as the rifle has functioned so well and obviously had at least some care exercised in its stock fit and finish. If they can't get it right, I'll be going for a refund and probably looking towards a BLR if I can't find a pre-Remington era 1895. Thanks for the help everyone, I'll continue working on this as soon as I get the rifle back and will be sure to post an update when I do.

[462]

Might it be that the lack of rifling, that you didn't notice prior to shooting cast boolits, is leading that was ironed into the rifling by shooting those jacketed bullets, instead of completely removing all of the leading by hand cleaning?

[Red Sky]

It's possible, but seemingly unlikely as I have the leading down to some thin "streaking" which is of obvious color and texture difference to the barrel steel, and still cannot plainly see the rifling bands on about a 3rd of the barrel at the muzzle. However, the streaks of leading do seem to have a bit of a rifling pattern to them - I just assumed this was from the rifling engagement of the bullet in the first half of the barrel.

I also think this may have caused a good portion of the excessive leading that I'm still struggling to get completely out of the barrel using methods that most have described as being relatively quick and easy. I plan to call them tomorrow to see about returning it. Does anyone think I should wait and do something else first to see if it isn't leading ironed in? I'm not entirely sure what to look for, and image searching has not yielded a good example. I'd hate to send them back a perfectly good rifle, especially since I know the thing was shooting fine. However, when I shot the jacketed rounds to clean leading yesterday, it was also seemingly as accurate as before, if not only slightly less (could have been me, as always). Any advice appreciated, thanks!

[btroj]

Lack of rifling would cause some bad leading. The rifling would create a groove in the bullet. Once the land goes away you hve a defect in the bullet which would allow gas leakage.

I would have someone take a look at the rifle and see what the status of the lands is. It would take some significant lead buildup to make the rifling disappear.

[Bluehawk]

I have reloaded for more than 18 45/70s in the past . I would certainly reduce the 5744 load as it is not really needed that high 28.5 works for me with that bullet. MOst of the 45/70s I have loaded for USING PLAIN BASE BULLETS have improved accuracy and lessened leading by adding a card or fiber wad in front of the powder charge . Some will caution about a RINGED CHAMBER IF the wad is not up tight against the bullet base and there is an air gap in between the bullet and the powder. I have NOT Had this problem loading the wad and bullet together with a slightly over sized wad . WORKS FOR ME .
That said I now shoot the Ranch Dog molds ( 350 and 425 ) IN My Marlin ( both GC bullets ) and I have no problem at all . ( down to one Marlin now ) :-(

[Red Sky]

Once I get the rifle back I may pick up one or more of the Ranch Dog molds and some gas checks just to try it out. I want to try to perfect this plain base load first as I it is quite inexpensive (somewhere around $0.35/shot) and will be the bulk of my shooting.

I may get the 350gr or even the 300gr Ranch Dog for longer ranges - I'm going to put a Nikon 2-8x on it with BDC which will get me out to 300-400yds, further than I'd probably want to hunt but good fun nonetheless. I like the added challenge of the 45-70 trajectory and want to see how far out I can go with the rifle.

Shipped the Marlin back to Remington yesterday. Service was good so far and seemed concerned - we will see how it goes when I get it back.