Diagnosis for my “De-rimming .22LR” failures?

[MUSTANG]

Asking for thoughts/Recommendations on:

1. How to resolve popping heads off .22LR cases
2. How to remove current stuck case
3. How to avoid stuck cases in future.

I ordered a Corbin Swaging Die set and Corbin press for .224 bullets from .22LR jackets back in the early 1980’s. The set went into air tight storage due to overseas deployments and stayed in storage since then. After retiring the 2nd time, I got the set out about 6 months ago with the intention to explore Swaging. I immediately started “Poping” the heads off of ever 5th to 10th LR brass case while de-rimming, after 70 or so I managed to get one semi-permanently stuck in the de-rimmer.

I sent the affected die set off to Corbin’s who cleared the case and returned it in a timely manner. After getting it back, I tried again and repeated the cycle with same results again, same solution. Purusing the Internet, I found and procured a .22LR de-rimming die available on E-Bay and bought it thinking perhaps there was an unseen problem with the set I had, and a replacement (one that works in my RCBS Rock Chucker press) might resolve the problem. No dice, same results with the EBay procured de-rimming die.

My De-Rimming Process:

1. Clean .22LR cases in a Harbor Freight Sonic Cleaner with a 50% Vinegar – 50% Tap Water solution with a couple drops of Dawn dish soap. I use the Heat Option when cleaning, usually go through about 5 cycles of 8 minutes each for cleaning these 22LR's. This is same process I use on other brass.

2. After step #1, I tumble for 1 hour in a vibratory tumbler with ground Corn Cob media. All residue from inside cases is gone by this time.

3. Heat treat .22LR cases in Electric oven on “Self Clean” cycle for 3-4 hours (Automated cycle controlled by Oven).

4. Tumble again for 1 hour in a vibratory tumbler with ground Corn Cob media.

5. Lube each case with Corbin Swaging lube by rolling between my thumb and 1st two fingers – applying moderate to heavy film of lube.

6. Run into de-rimming swager die.

7. Failure occurs somewhere between 1st to 10th case. (Both De-Rimming sets).

Pictures of my two De-Rimming Die Sets. Ebay purchased on left & Corbin is on right in picture below (Click on picture to enlarge):


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_220905036a572d805e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6379)



With both die sets I have experienced the same level of failure (Popping Heads/Stuck LR cases in dies) despite one being sharp and the other slightly rounded on the punch nose.

If you look at the die body on the left, you will see a slight brass ring in the mouth. In those cases where a .22LR case popped the head and there was case extended outside the mouth, a pair of pliers was used to crush the exposed case flat and then with a twisting action I was able to remove the stuck brass case without any impact to the dies. I had 7 or 8 times when the case was totally inside the case when the head popped off (such as in the above picture).

I arrived at a home brewed solution. I took a used (dead) Large Rifle primer removed during previous reloading operations (I have several containers of these, but first time I actually got use out of them). I hit on the idea of using a Primer in the same way that a PIG is used in the Oil Fields to clean out an Oil or Natural Gas Pipeline where paraffin/varnish/crud is accumulated. The primer was placed as seen in the following pictures atop the ram and this allowed me to drive out the stuck case after the head popped. A removed stuck case with embedded primer and a .22LR case/jacket are seen in the right hand picture . (Click on picture to enlarge)


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_220905036a5fd1f0f8.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6384)


Although I had success in doing this 7 or 8 times; the fact I have one I can’t get out this way tells me the technique is seriously flawed. How do I get the stuck case in the left hand picture out? I do not have machining skills/lathe/mill, but I do have a full size drill press.

Given these dilemmas, I also hit on the idea of a series of “Draw Down” sizing operations as a possible solution. I thought this might resolve my problem, but obviously sidesteps the question of why the rest of the Free World Swaging Community can de-rim a 22LR case using the tools in these pictures , but I can’t seem to do it. I took the punch from the E-Bay De-rimming die set (One on left of first picture) and paired it with a Lee .225 Boolit Sizer die, I lubed a .22LR case, and tried to de-rim it with this cobbled together set. Immediately punched the head off of the .22LR case and had to get the pliers to remove the case from the Lee .225 Boolit Sizing die.

Recap:

1. How to resolve popping heads off .22LR cases
2. How to remove current stuck case
3. How to avoid stuck cases in future.

I am trying to avoid the temptation of the bigger hammer and shop anvil syndrom. Also, if possible avoid the cost of a machinist milling the 22LR case out. Most importantly, need to master making jackets from 22LR so I can move on to stuffing jackets with lead cores from the core mold. :confused:


Mustang

[jixxerbill]

i derim mine before i heat treat them ! might try that.. just clean and derim then heat treat..

[DukeInFlorida]

The space between the die and the punch is fixed. Some brass is thicker than others. Federal ("F") cases are especially thick. If the thickness exceeds the space between the punch and the die, you will be extruding the brass. Lots of force required, and the danger of popping out ends exists.

The core swaging and core seating and point forming punches are similar in shape to the derimming punch. But the derimming punch should be the smallest diameter of them all, and should have rounded edges.

Avoid the thicker brass, and make sure that you are using the correct punch.

You can probably stick something like an ice pick in between the brass that's stuck, and bend it enough to grab with needle nose pliers.

I anneal after derimming.

[Hickory]

On step one; after cleaning and rinsing, shake excess water from cases.
I put the cases in the oven @ 550 degrees for 25-30 minutes. This anneals them
enough that you can draw the rim off with out popping the rim off.
Took a few years for me to get it down pat, but that works for me.

[Utah Shooter]

I would just not anneal before de rimming. I have the Corbin R die and perhaps 1 out of 100 the heads pop off.

[shooterg]

Another vote for annealing after derimming here. Not too sure if "oven annealing" works as well as other ways, but I bet it makes the meter spin !

[runfiverun]

you need 700+f to dead soft anneal brass.
i de rim after cleaning and before annealing.
i'll often anneal just the nose after point forming,then point form again.

[MIBULLETS]

I definately agree with those who said to de-rim first then put them in the oven. I have the same issue if I anneal mine first, now I anneal after de-riming. No problems.

[newcastter]

I clean, derim then anneal that process works great for me might have 1 out of 100

[midnight]

I too anneal after derimming and have done several thousand with no problems. It even took me a while to figure out what we were talking about (popping heads). Also, 45 min to an hour in the self cleaning oven is plenty. Save youself lots of electricity and you won't heat your house up so much in the summer. To a frugal guy like me, that translates into more shootin stuff. 1+ on the Federal brass. I derim them OK but they requier more force. Since the supply of brass is so plentiful, I'd just as soon leave the Federal lay.

Bob

[marten]

First, anneal after de-rim, this step will save much frustration!

(Annealing is a function of heat and time, in response to someone who said that you need 700ºF to anneal brass, you need 700ºF to anneal brass quickly)

Lubrication.
I found that the amount of lube on the punch was affecting the 'popping' of the case.
Castor based 2 cycle oil works well for de-rim, with light application to the punch and as heavy as you like on the outside of the case.

[blltsmth]

CHECK THE LUBE!!!If you have the same lube that you bought when you got the die set back in the 80's, TOSS IT!!I had the same problem recently and found it to be that the lube from Corbin had broken down over time. I mixed up a fresh batch with 50/50 anhydrous lanolin and castor oil and the problem went away. Use a "knock-out" rod and brass hammer to clear the cases. I have an old silver press and the compound leverage swages all .22 rim fire cases the same, Federal brand or not. The reloading press may be a little weak on leverage in this department. I anneal with the .22 case on a firebrick BEFORE de-rimming and have done so since 1988. You just have to go forward and see what works for you. Good luck in your endevours!

[Smokin7mm]

2. How to remove current stuck case

The punch in your picture (black one) that has the knob on the top is a knock out punch. If you insert it from the top it should push out the stuck case if it is fit right.

As far as tearing heads off. I derim then anneal

Bret

[WD2A7X3]

Try to move the die body higher in the press if possible. There's usually a sweet spot where the brass will go thru the easiest.

If you have any lanolin based case sizing lube around try using that instead of the corbin lube.

Since neither set is working correctly the likely culprit is the brand of brass, as mentioned some are thicker then others and the majority of de-rim sets have clearances to work with *most* brands.

If nothing works measure the thickness of the cases you're using and post the numbers here. Normally they're around .010 thick. If yours are much thicker you could try chucking the punch up in your drill press and sanding .001-.002 off to get the extra punch to die clearance you need.

[MUSTANG]

CHECK THE LUBE!!!If you have the same lube that you bought when you got the die set back in the 80's, TOSS IT!!I had the same problem recently and found it to be that the lube from Corbin had broken down over time. I mixed up a fresh batch with 50/50 anhydrous lanolin and castor oil and the problem went away. Use a "knock-out" rod and brass hammer to clear the cases. I have an old silver press and the compound leverage swages all .22 rim fire cases the same, Federal brand or not. The reloading press may be a little weak on leverage in this department. I anneal with the .22 case on a firebrick BEFORE de-rimming and have done so since 1988. You just have to go forward and see what works for you. Good luck in your endevours!


I suspected this as a potential problem and bought a new bottle of Lube from Corbin the first time I sent the die back, and the new Lube is what I have been using.

Mustang

[MUSTANG]

2. How to remove current stuck case

The punch in your picture (black one) that has the knob on the top is a knock out punch. If you insert it from the top it should push out the stuck case if it is fit right.

As far as tearing heads off. I derim then anneal

Bret


Smokin7mm:

The Corbin Knock out Punch is Too Short to remove the stuck .22LR Case/Jacket from the die. It fits Corbins De-rimming Die, but not the E-Bay procured De-Rimming die which has the stuck case/jacket.

Also; in the past using this Knock Out Punch I used a wooden Lyman Mold Mallet as a "Tapping Hammer", it is now either slightly out of round (bent?) or has a lip created from previously driving a .22LR/Jacket out of the Corbin Die. I can tell this because if you place entirely in the Corbin De-Rimming die and turn it, you can feel a slight binding that comes back each time you rotate it 360 degrees. :confused:

[MUSTANG]

Another vote for annealing after derimming here. Not too sure if "oven annealing" works as well as other ways, but I bet it makes the meter spin !



Yep; I have gone out and looked at the Electric Meter spinning like a Whirling Dervish when the self clean is turned on. But the wife bakes, and when something boils over in baking, the oven has to be cleaned. It is actually cheaper to pay for the electricity used in the Self Clean mode than it is to buy an oven cleaner product. Cleaner too. So I have and will in the future just run a batch requiring annealing in the oven when she needs it cleaned. Dual use in the same requirement, thats what we cheap/frugal people do; no forget that "It's Green", yeah it;s green. Do you think essence of apple pie vapor will corrupt the brass?

Mustang

[MUSTANG]

WD2A7X3:

In the Picture below moving left to right, I have the E-Bay Punch which measures 0.201”. The Corbin Punch holder and Long Punch is next measuring 0.198”. The short Corbin Punch is next, also measuring 0.198”. The short Pin (no threads to match up with the Corbin Punch holder) is 0.191”. In the past, using the Corbin Press and De-Rimming die with the Long Punch I would start the .22LR case into the die, insert the pin into the case mouth and hold it in place while lowering the press handle until I could hold the pin I place; then press the case into the die. This resulted in better success (fewer Popped Heads); but the risk of crushing a finger, extremely time consuming, still getting the occasional Popped Head (less frequent but still happening), and knowing this was a “Work Around” and not the correct methodology, I abandon the process.

DukeinMaine:

The blue Awl in the picture is the tool I have to insert between the die body and the stuck .22LR brass casing/Jacket. Not thrilled with that idea yet and am cogitating on it. My trepidation is the potential of scoring the Die wall and ruining it. I know these are supposed to be hardened steel; but as I said I am reluctant and thinking the process over. [smilie=6:



http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090503a6b184e11d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6432)

Mustang

[MUSTANG]

The space between the die and the punch is fixed. Some brass is thicker than others. Federal ("F") cases are especially thick. If the thickness exceeds the space between the punch and the die, you will be extruding the brass. Lots of force required, and the danger of popping out ends exists.

The core swaging and core seating and point forming punches are similar in shape to the derimming punch. But the derimming punch should be the smallest diameter of them all, and should have rounded edges.

Avoid the thicker brass, and make sure that you are using the correct punch.

You can probably stick something like an ice pick in between the brass that's stuck, and bend it enough to grab with needle nose pliers.

I anneal after derimming.


:-D Well I was successful in removing the stuck .22LR case/jacket from the E-Bay die. I just could not bring myself to use the Awl as postulated as a solution. Instead I modified my previous Long Rifle Primer extracting methodology. My thinking was that since the Long Rifle primers in this case were passing through the middle of the Brass Tube (.22LR head was popped off, leaving a .22LR tube entirely inside of the die) instead of engaging the sidewalls of the .22LR case, I needed something larger to “Grab the Sides/Shoulder of the brass tube. So here are the steps I hit on to remove the .22LR Case/Jacket:

a. I used my Corbin CSP-1 Swaging Press (Not my RCBS Rock Chucker or Lee 50BMG Press).


All I can say is “WOW”. The politicians and Federal Reserve keep saying that there is no inflation; I paid about $125.00 for that press when I bought it in the early 1980’s, and I just looked on the Internet and they go for about $600.00 now!

b. I took the E-Bay de-rimming die with the stuck .22LR Case/Jacket and screwed it FROM THE BOTTOM into the top threaded slot of the CSP-1 Press. To say a different way, I put it in upside down and screwed it UP into the CSP1 press. This allowed the punch to enter the die from the opposite direction than when you de-rim a .22LR case. I adjusted the die so that the punch would engage in the maximum mechanical advantage area of the press cycle.

c. I used the Corbin Long Punch as pictured in post #18 of this Thread. I took three (3) expended Long Rifle primers and placed each one “CUP UP” on the top of the punch and pressed each of them into the .22LR Brass tube. My thought was that if they perchance drive the stuck case out; so much the better. If not, then they would stack and cause a “Binding” on the inside portion of the .22LR brass tube in the dies, strengthening to brass tube. The die was adjusted so that the punch just pressed each into the case, just past the leading edge of the inverted die.

d. I took a 4th expended Long Rifle primer and pried the anvil out. I then took a 3/16 punch and used it to expand slightly the rim of the Primer Cup causing it to be slightly wider than a normal Long Rifle Primer would be. (Used the rounded edge end, not pointed end of a 3/16 inch punch from the Harbor Freight Transfer Punch Set http://www.harborfreight.com/28-piece-transfer-punch-set-3577.html ) A sharp square punch was not desired, rather a rounded edge to spread the mouth of the primer. Also, using the pointed side of that set of punches would not round the edge, but probably result in a hole in the middle of the primer. I used a length of 2”x3/4” wood as a “Mallet” to hit the Harbor Freight Punch; not a hammer.

e. The flared primer mouth was inserted “Mouth Up” on top of the Corbin Punch, and inserted slowly into the De-Rimming die until it touched the stuck case edge. I then screwed the die further into the Press (In this case since the die was inverted, I screwed it clockwise causing the die to “Rise” into the press, until I reached a point where I had a large amount of mechanical advantage. I then very slowly pushed the handle of the press down. This allowed the flared mouth of primer #4 to engage the wall of the stuck .22LR Case and push it slowly out of the die. Ii is my theory that the Long Rifle Primers 1 through 3 previously pressed into the inside of the .22LR Tube, reinforced the tube and transferred the pressure up along the .22LR case wall, instead of in, allowing the pressure to push the stuck case out of the die.

This proved to be a long process and description; but I was successful in this specific instance. It allowed me to avoid using the Awl to lift up the edge of the tube as Duke postulated. I still have concern with that process damaging a die or the mouth area. I’ll keep it in mind as a last ditch effort.


Do others have thoughts or comments on this process I used for removing Popped Head/Stuck LR cases in De-rimming die?

Mustang

[DukeInFlorida]

If made properly, the die material should be harder than an awl, and therefore "scratch proof"...........

However, I could not be sure of what was used to make your die. You could test it in a non-important location (face) with an awl and see if it scratches easily.

[MUSTANG]

:drinks:

After removing the stuck case (see post # 19) I jumped into another attempt to make jackets in the E-Bay De-Rimmer die. I decided on a Hybrid set up for the De-rimming effort. I used the Corbin CSP-1 press with the E-Bay sizing die and performed two separate tests using the Corbin Punches.

Test #1: Corbin Long Punch in CSP-1 Press with E-Bay de-rimmer.

I threaded the E-Bay de-rimmer down into the press and adjusted it so that the Corbin Long Punch would engage at the greatest mechanical advantage area. I successfully de-rimmed over 160 .22LR cases with this configuration without a single “Popped Head” !

Concern: The “Best” setting for this combination, where it is easiest to de-rim and the results overall feeling and results are maximized, is with only three full turns of the die into the press. Given the pressures generated against the threads; is there reason to believe the threads on the press or die would fail at this setting?


Test #2: Corbin Short Punch in CSP-1 Press with E-Bay de-rimmer.

I threaded the E-Bay de-rimmer down into the press. To get it into a reasonable mechanical advantage area on the press required at least 13 full turns of the die into the press. Setting at 13 thread turns deep resulted in the second case “Popping” the head off. In this case, clearing was easy as the jacket tube pulled out on the punch when it was lowered out of the die. After clearing the punch; I lowered the Die a couple of turns at a time until I reached a total of 16 turns deep into the press. In the 13 turns to 16 turn region, I would every few .22LR cases have the rounded dome of one case wedge into the previous case. This seems to be caused because the cases were not being fully pushed out of the sizing region of the die. I turned the die down a couple of turns, tested again and repeated until that problem disappeared at about 16 full rotations into the press. I successfully sized about 60 .22LR cases with on the one Head being popped.

The press is mounted at a height of 36” from the floor. With the Short punch adjusted as I indicated above; it takes almost a 180 degree rotation of the CSP-1 arm to be fully sized and pushed through the case. Makes one feel as if they are doing Toe Touches every time you operate the press arm. The use of the Corbin Short Punch is not near as desirable as the long punch for this reason; but I still worry about high pressures, stress and wear with only 3 full turns of threads engaged as described in Test #1 above.


I measured the dimensions for the “Jacket Output” of the E-Bay and Corbin Jackets. They are as follows:

E-Bay Die, External Jacket Die Measurements for 5 Jackets: .2220, .2210, .2215, .2210, .2215.

Corbin Die, External Jacket Die Measurement for 5 Jackets: .2200, .2205, .2205, .2200, .2205.


DukeinMaine:


I did a scratch test with the Awl on the bottom flat face of the dies. The E-Bay die is either not heat treated; or a light heat treatment because is left a lite scratch on the high polish finish. The same scratch test did not leave a visible mark on the Corbin die.


Mustang

[Lizard333]

Just goes to show, you get what you pay for. Corbin's dies aren't cheap, but cheap dies aren't good.

Glad to hear you got your problems worked out!!

[MUSTANG]

Just goes to show, you get what you pay for. Corbin's dies aren't cheap, but cheap dies aren't good.

Glad to hear you got your problems worked out!!

The difficulties I encountered, coupled with the force necessary to size the rim off of a .22LR case, makes one wonder how BTSniper is sizing those 9mm and .40S&W cases into jackets. I'm 6'4'' and weigh 230 lbs. How do the little guys get-r-done on the end of that swaging press arm. Guess that's why they make cheater bars.


I am now ready to move into the actual production of some .224 projectiles. New territory I have not traveled yet. Last spring I cast a few cores for the .22LR jackets using an RCE core mold. I had misplaced the Corbin core mold in a different Ammo can years ago and when I could not find it; ordered another from RCE. Found the original Corbin mold a few weeks ago.

Guess its time to move into seating the cores and........


Mustang

[Lizard333]

Now you know why some of us have ponied up the coin for an actual swaging press. I started out swaging 40's into 44's on my Rockchucker. Then I got BT to make me an adapter to use his dies on my Walnut Hill. Now the only part of swaging I do on my Rockchucker is his universal notching die. Everything else is on my Walnut Hill.

Way easier to swage on a press designed for swaging instead of reloading.

[DukeInFlorida]

The pressures required for the .224 bullets is far, FAR less than for the 9mm and .40 swaged bullets.

For the .224 bullets, using BT Sniper's die set, I'm using the tips of two fingers for pushing. One of the tips I learned is that you should be able to "feel" the swaging operation on the small bullets. And, with the tips of two fingers, I can control the swage operation and feel the process happening quite easily. No cheater bar required for the .224.

In fact, if you squeeze with TOO much force, with the .224 bullets, you will get stuff stuck in the dies!

[MUSTANG]

The pressures required for the .224 bullets is far, FAR less than for the 9mm and .40 swaged bullets.

For the .224 bullets, using BT Sniper's die set, I'm using the tips of two fingers for pushing. One of the tips I learned is that you should be able to "feel" the swaging operation on the small bullets. And, with the tips of two fingers, I can control the swage operation and feel the process happening quite easily. No cheater bar required for the .224.

In fact, if you squeeze with TOO much force, with the .224 bullets, you will get stuff stuck in the dies!



Duke:

I have continued to evaluate my set up, trying to get past the high resistance I experienced while de-rimming the .22lr cases to produce .224 jackets. I reviewed once again the Corbin manuals I bought years ago, read the Corbin web site, and posts here. I reset the Linkage on my Corbin S-1 Swage Press back and forth a couple of times (between the 2" and 4" throw settings (Front and rear holes in the picture) and tested. I am scratching my head concerning how; but it appears that I failed to have the correct setting. The pin (hole setting) is now in the correct location to have the 2" ram movement Corbin specifies for Swaging. (See picture, right side).


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090503d5b7a4705d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6477)


In the left side picture, I have the punch and dies set for 22LR de-rimming with all of the changes that have been implemented since I started. This latest configuration now gets me to where de-rimming is much easier; I can now do a .22LR de-rimm with two fingers and a thumb, but I think it is still slightly more difficult than you describe. I'll experiment with slight adjustments seeking that sweet spot. But with the latest set up; I have now de-rimmed over 500 cases without a single "Popped Head".

By the way; all of these cases were annealed. When I collect more .22LR cases, I'll see how it works without annealing. The Corbin references I have, and the Web Site all state to anneal cases before de-rimming. But then again, there seems to be a lot of knowledge gathered since Corbin published his books and reference material years ago.

Well; next step is to cast a bunch of cores in preparation of Core Swaging, Core Seating, and Boolit Manufacturing. Here in Southern Nevada, we are still a good 4 weeks out from the temps dropping out of the 100's and down into the 80's. Once that happens, time to get the Casting Pot going.


Mustang

[Lizard333]

My input. Try without cases annealed. They are too soft. That's why your popping heads. I have done thousands and only had a couple fail. Do your annealing after you de-rim.

[DukeInFlorida]

One other thing to get fussy about is the cleanliness of the brass before you de-rim it.

And, I'm not only talking about the outside of the .22 LR brass. The insides are notorious for being gritty unless you really clean them with a wet tumbling system. Walnut shell and corn cob media really won't work it's magic inside the brass.

Some of the brass that you are de-rimming is actually thick enough to get somewhat extruded while it's being processed. Extruding while hung up on the grit (on the insides) can make the issue even worse.

[MUSTANG]

[smilie=w:

Well the stars are finally aligned. I have successfully "De-Rimmed" at least 1000 LR cases, and had only a single head "Pop Off" since my last post. I attribute the problems I encountered to the following:

(a) I believe the original Corbin De-Rimming Die, punch and 22LR case form a too tight fit condition when some .22LR cases are De-Rimmed, causing the .22LR case to bind as the rim tries to iron out at the head; with the head of the brass failing as a result.

(b) My other de-rimming die I picked up from "E-Bay", the De-Rimming die punch had too sharp (Square) a shoulder where it engaged the head inside of the case, causing that punch and die set to "Shave/Shove" the brass head, resulting in failures.

(c) The operator was inexperienced, complicating the conditions in (a) and (b).


By using a "Hybrid" of the Corbin punch (.198") with a nice rounded shoulder, and the "E-bay" die with a slightly larger Inside DIameter, I am able to produce a core jacket with an outside diameter of .222" . This jacket fits well into the Corbin Core Seating Die. Below is a picture of my "Ugly Children" as produced on my first attempt after recently receiving the Core Seating die I purchased from Corbin's to replace the one missing from my set.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/2209050678951e2c90.bmp (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6861)


You can see that I have a learning curve to deal with to get the cores correct, and the nose punch adjusted correctly. Couldn't resist the urge to shoot the eight (8) on the left in the picture. They produced the group seen on the Target. Shots were from 75 yards, average chronographed speed was ~ 1989fps using 27 Grains of WC-860. Groups were dramatically larger than what I see with my reduced velocity WC860 and M855 surplus ball loads; but for a first stab at it, not as bad as I expected.


I have all ready experienced additional challenges, but I'll start a new post to address them.

Mustang

[supe47]

What kind of weight did your "lovely little darlins" turn out to be? And what are you testing them with, twist, barrel length, ect.? Supe

[MUSTANG]

What kind of weight did your "lovely little darlins" turn out to be? And what are you testing them with, twist, barrel length, ect.? Supe


Supe47:

These were 62 grains (+ or minus 0.2 Grains). These were shot in a Savage Axis Bolt Action rifle with 9X Scope, a 1 in 9 twist 22inch barrel.


I have started another thread as I work on trying to refine the nose. This new thread contains info on round two, with test firing of 10 rounds each in both the Savage Axis and my AR-15 which also has a 1 in 9 twist. The link to that posting is:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=166596


Mutang

[PhilOhio]

Mustang,

Eliminating your popped heads is easier than you think. I believe I spotted the problem in your first post. Oven annealing won't soften the brass enough. I've been doing it the following way since about 1980, have made thousands of these jackets, and have not popped one head...so far, I guess I should say.

1. I hang each case on a straight piece of coathanger wire, hold it just above the blue tip of a propane torch flame on my kitchen work table, and keep it there until the entire case glows red. This takes about 15 seconds. No need to hold it red for longer.

2. I let it drop in water, just to save time, as quenching does not really improve the annealing, although it doesn't hurt. Remember, brass works the opposite of steel.

That's it. I never tumble, clean, or do anything else with the cases before annealing them. Just don't start out with dirty cases. They go through the de-rimming die just fine, as long as you are sure the punch end is slightly rounded, because a sharp edge would be likely to cut/pop some of your heads.

Another issue is that some manufacturers have switched to recycled brass of unknown alloy, which is way too hard and cannot be adequately annealed, no matter how you try to do it. CCI is one, although it's good ammo. But, unfortunately, it may be very difficult to ignite in some firearms made before the 1960s, because firing pins and springs were made with different alloy expectations.

It doesn't really take so long to do hundreds of cases this way, but if you are processing thousands, use a kiln or some other way of getting them red hot. That's the key; red hot and correct alloy. When you find a case manufacturer that works, stay with it...unless they change the alloy.

When you run into cases which require just too much brute force, even after heating to red hot, give up on them and switch brands.

Haven't posted here for a long time. Just dropped in by accident, spotted this thread on a common problem, and hoped I might be able to offer something useful.

[yarro]

If you stick brass in steel, put die in freezer. Brass contracts a little faster than steel.

-yarro