Low Pressure, High Performance

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The .45 Colt chamber in the single action army is paper thin, .03” at the bolt notch, so we go to the .44 Special thinkin’ hey, we can add more powder and get more power if we have more metal. We play with loads up in the 22,000 psi range and say ya, that’s more bang when I pull the trigger. The 22,000 psi loads definitely shoot flatter at longer ranges. But then I look at the penetration I get with the old doddling 17,000 psi .45 Long Colt load launched from a pistol with paper thin chamber walls and say hey that’s impressive. A 250 gr lead boolit and 65” of penetration through water from a 35 ounce handgun. Makes me wonder why such low pressure is giving me such high performance. Most of the guys I work with carry 35,000 psi hollowpoints and frankly the results are not all that impressive, under penetration and irregular wound tracks are a regular problem. We used to load our .357’s up really hot with jacketed boolits but all we got was fragmentation. In town I carry a .45 ACP loaded at 23,000 psi in a gun with the top half on a spring. Makes me think we are all getting distracted barking up the tree looking for higher pressure when we haven’t properly explored the potential of lower pressure loads in handguns. We could be throwing heavier boolits, slower, from lighter pistols constructed with thinner modern steels and see better performance in penetration and more stable wound tracks.

[Love Life]

Doesn't the CA Bulldog use this concept with their small 44 special?

[subsonic]

Low pressure also has it's own set of issues....

Shot recovery time is very slow on those, trajectory (maybe moot for SD) is poor, and accuracy can be terrible. There are very few (maybe none?) powders that burn clean at 17,000psi and will fill up a .45 colt case.

[felix]

Maybe TRAILBOSS? Larry needs to verify, starting with full case, and dropping the load until lowest ES while accuracy is still in the "black". ... felix

[subsonic]

FFF would work, except for that "burns clean" part.

[Larry Gibson]

I've not ran any tests with TB yet in any cartridge, just haven't got around to it. However, I recently completed a very extensive testing of Tin Star in the 45 Colt ( and most other CBA cartridges). I have to agree with Silver Jack that the 45Colt with 200 - 260 gr bullets in the 850 - 1000 fps range with PSI's running in the 14,000 - 17,000 psi range are very effect. Given the speed at which CBA shooters recover from the recoil I wouldn't say recovery was "slow".

Given the availability of quality 44 Magnums these days I really don't see the need to boost 44 Specials into 44 magnum psi levels in 44 SPL revolvers. I have to agree with Silver Jack on that also. However, I'm not opposed to 22,000 psi loads in modern made SAA in 44 SPL. Even the 45 Colt SAAs with ACP cylinders are into that psi range with +P 45 AC ammo.

However, all said and done I am quite satisfied with my own 45 Colt loads in the 14,000 - 17,000 psi range with 200 - 260 gr cast bullets in both mu SAAs and both my lever guns. If I want magnum level performance then I'll use one of my Magnum revolvers. Just my own opinion that agrees with Silver Jack Hammer is all. Others are certainly entitled to their own.

Larry Gibson

[MGySgt]

I couldn't agree more. I don't hot rod my 45 colt, 44 mag or my 475 Linbaugh.

For the average shooter/hunter our pistol rounds can stay in the top 20 % of the power level for that cartridge and get the job done. These rounds will be easier on the guns and the shooters.

For our autoloaders we may have to stay closer to our top end loads to have them function properly.

At the same time if some didn't experiment with:

The 38 Special we wouldn't have the 357 mag
The 44 Special we wouldn't have the 44 Mag
The 45 Colt we wouldn't have the 454
The 454 we wouldn't have the 460

Just my thoughts and practices.

[jh45gun]

Heavy cast bullets penetrate very well. I have seen that in my 45/70 with the two deer I killed with that cartridge with a 405 grain cast bullet. I killed a buck and a doe with 180 grain 30cal cast bullets at 1800 fps I am guessing and they never knew the difference. I just loaded some 300 grain bullets in my 45 Colt Uberti to see if they would raise my POA and if they do I will have no qualms about shooting a deer at archery ranges with it. Even a 22 short kills well if you put the bullet in the right place.

[nicholst55]

Plus the low-pressure rounds are a lot easier on my arthritic hands, wrists and elbows! Not a small point, as far as I'm concerned! I shot two cylinders full of John Linebaugh loads through my .45 Colt Blackhawk a couple of weeks ago, and that was enough to remind me that 1) I need a lot more practice with them, and 2) they were uncomfortable to shoot.

Speed is fine, but accuracy is final!

[Wolfer]

My favorite thing about low pressure 45 colt loads is the noise level compared to performance on game.
I believe it has the best compromise between noise and power.

[44man]

I never hot rod anything. I get a little out of sorts to read posts looking for max stuff. Only one thing needed and that is accuracy. The rest will take care of itself.

[StrawHat]

...I just loaded some 300 grain bullets in my 45 Colt Uberti to see if they would raise my POA and if they do I will have no qualms about shooting a deer at archery ranges with it...

If all you are wanting is a deer load, the 260 grain boolits over full charges of black powder will penetrate any white tailed deer I have ever seen. If you are looking to regualte sights, well, that is a bit more challenging.

[longhorn]

I think the OP was talking about shooting people, not deer. Hasn't this all been hashed out? From Thompson-LaGarde through "Strasbourg" and the various Evan Marshall/Ed Sanow examinations, the data is pretty clear: if your objective is to incapacitate a human being, lightweight expanding and fast work best. Hunting deer is mostly different. BTW, I'm wondering what agency the OP works for that has all these data point shootings? If penetration and/or expansion are problematic, maybe better bullet technology should be examined.

[44man]

I think the OP was talking about shooting people, not deer. Hasn't this all been hashed out? From Thompson-LaGarde through "Strasbourg" and the various Evan Marshall/Ed Sanow examinations, the data is pretty clear: if your objective is to incapacitate a human being, lightweight expanding and fast work best. Hunting deer is mostly different. BTW, I'm wondering what agency the OP works for that has all these data point shootings? If penetration and/or expansion are problematic, maybe better bullet technology should be examined.
Might be! So much difference between people and hunting. I hope to never have to shoot anyone but would feel no regrets if they deserve it. A criminal has a smaller brain then a deer so I would feel worse after killing a deer.
The problem is that a criminal on drugs does not feel much and can keep on trying to kill you. You need destruction.
Three things. Target, hunting and self defense. Different stuff, different needs.
Most sites have to much self defense and carry stuff for people while others think about a huge bear and then there is target and hunting. None are the same.