I need help!

[horsesoldier]

Hello, I have a cabelas investarms hawken in 58 caliber. I have shot my own cast round balls, 575 diameter with a .018 pillow tickling patches prelubed with bore butter.The first one or two rounds will shoot fairly close together, then the rounds are all over the place no matter how much I clean it at the range. The load I used was 120 grains of FF grafs black powder.

I then tried some minie's I bought off of gun broker. 530 grain minie with a thick skirt.This really shot all over the place.I started at 90 grains and went up to 120 grains and the same thing. I also found that these boolits were not made for a 58, they were made for a 577. The first would just slide down my barrel. Way too loose.

I found one pack of maxi-balls,555 grain, and tried them with 90 grains of the holy black.Tighter groups but unfortunately for me they have been discontinued.This got me thinking perhaps this rifle likes a tighter fitting bullet.I have tried to find the maxi mould but even if I could have I could not have afforded one. I instead bought the R.E.A.L mould for the 58. I am starting into panic mode because when I started this project 6 months ago I feel like I am farther behind than when I started. I begin muzzle loader hunting the last week in September. I also ordered more nipples for this gun thinking maybe the heavy charges had affected the nipples I had. I use rws musket caps.

Any pointers or hints would be awesome. I am at my wits end with this rifle. I am not looking for match grade accuracy or anything, I just want to get it sighted in at 100 yards.I do have some .10 patches I could try next but for hunting I think a conical would suit me a little better for a quicker follow up shot. How long do you think in theory a nipple would last?

[DIRT Farmer]

Try cutting the powder charge back, 80 grns should be enough for any thing smaller than the big five. Look at the patches and see if they are holding up. Try spit patches, apperently the first two going well, should be all you need in the field. Try a standard number 11 nipple, sonetimes makes a huge difference.

Have some one else cap the gun some times with out the cap and see what happens.

[tomme boy]

Back off on the charges. 90gr is about max for accuracy.

[horsesoldier]

Sounds good.Once I get the new sight on I am going to try that. What are you thinking, start at 60 grains and work my way up? By 10 grains at a time?Also I am using a lead sled for testing.

[mooman76]

I agree. I'd try a different lube. Mine did good with 80gr. Whenever I use bore butter I have to swab after every couple shots. With spit patch I can shoot all day. Of coarse you can use spit patch for your first shot hunting because it will dry out but you could start out with regular lube followed by spit patch.

[horsesoldier]

So, correct me if I am wrong, but a spit patch is just that.Spit and a patch right? lol

[D Crockett]

Horsesoldier I have some improved mminnies for my 58 I will send you if you want to try them all I ask is you pay the postage of $6.10I will also put in some of the lube that I use the receipi has been around for over 150 years D Crockett

[waksupi]

Get rid of the Bore butter, and the musket caps. And yes, spit patch is spit, and patch!

[horsesoldier]

Ok. Why would the musket cap mess things up? Is it too much pop? I got the musket caps when I was trying the subs but since I am shooting real black ignition isnt an issue. I will give it a go!

[johnson1942]

johnson 1942: many times if a rifle barrel shoots one or two right on then walks, it is caused by heating up. lube the barrel channel real good. how ever the real cure maybe takeing unseen stress out of the barrel. if their is unseen stress in the barrel it will walk when heated up and bend toward the least tension pushed by the most tension. ive seen this many times and the cure is to have the barrel cryo treated. it doesnt make any diff if they are muzzle loader barrels or modern rifle barrels, if their is stress in the barrel cryoing it will cure it. dont go with a expensive cry co they all use about the same machine. if you do it find a reasonable one.also look for pressure points in your stock when the barrel heat up and expands. good luck.

[DIRT Farmer]

Musket caps have about three times the pp that standard caps have and yes they can move things around.

My tech for spit patches is dampen them in my mouth then "chew" them dry.

In "my guns" for hunting loads I lube with in this order of sucess, #1 mutton tallow #2 deer tallow #3 beef tallow. The tallow I use is the kidney fat. Talk to the meat cutter at the grocery or if you are lucky enough to have a butcher shop near by they can get you the real stuff. A road kill deer has enough for several thousand shots. Just render it down and put it in small canning jars, the half cup size works best.

I melt the tallow in the micro wave (in the farm shop) and dip a tightly wound strip of patching in it till it is soaked. Drop ith roll in the hunting pouch and it is ready to go.

[horsesoldier]

Keep the idea coming guys I need all the help I can get! Johnson1942, I will do some checking around here to see if anybody local does it.

[mooman76]

I just put a patch in my mouth long enough to get it wet. Not dripping wet throughout.

[Hellgate]

Horsesoldier,
I have the same rifle plus 3 other .58 cal rifles. The Investarms has a larger diameter bore. 90grs of FFg or FFFg is what I use in the others but the Investarms is oversized so you need a .577 minie rather than the usual .575. I would recommend getting an oversize mold. Lyman made some in the past and I believe LEE makes one (578 dia 478gr). Rapine made a bunch too. The place to look for molds and advice (no offense to the others who are helping) is the N/SSA web site. They all shoot 58cal muskets of various bore diameters and their archives are full of good info. In my Investarms 58 Hawken the 575213-Old Style and the 577611 minies will slide out the barrel if it is pointed down.

You are using hunting loads. There is not enough lube in the patch for heavy charges. Thin skirted minies will flare the base and be inaccurate with those heavy loads. The N/SSA folks are shooting 35-45grs of FFFg for targets. I don't target shoot so I like the thick minies like the two I mentioned from Lyman. They shoot fine in my Musketoon and Zouave. The Buffalo Hunter I have has a larger bore like the Hawken.

You need to be sure you are using DEAD SOFT lead for the minies. Mine shoots the 577611 pretty accurately with 90grs FFg. I've been scared to go any higher. Nice to know they don't blow up immediately with 120 gr charges.

If memory serves, I believe the R.E.A.L. bullet shot OK in the Hawken. They are just a bear to load in a hurry.

Also, I've seen hand cast minies for sale and when I inspected them they were full of voids/bubbles in the hollow base. I would have culled 2/3 of them for the remelt if they were mine. They also may have been of a harder alloy which will cast small and not let the skirt expand upon firing. So, you could have just gotten lousy minies. They are difficult to cast but I can do it. I haven't shot mine that much since the price of lead went so high. I need to find a mother lode of soft lead and get back into it.

My thinking on hunting with the Hawken was to have a .570 or .575 patched ball in the gun (90-120grs powder) and as a follow up 2nd shot be the 577611 heavy skirted minie with 90grs FFg. The barrel will be already fouled enough so the minie ought to stay put. My main hunter is an Enfield Musketoon using the above minie load. The two deer I have harvested were with a Zouave using 90grs FFFg and the Lyman575213-OS minie. I have yet to recover a minie. They all sailed through the game. See photo. PM me if need be.

[fouronesix]

Ya, kind of crunch time for getting sorted out for this hunting season.

First, as others have said, try reducing the loads. Both the 58 RB and the 58 minie, even at moderate velocity, carry plenty of poop for anything you'll likely hunt. I'd be inclined to start at 60-70 grains. I know the earlier Lyman BP handbooks had stories about hunting the big, thick skinned critters in Africa with the 58 "Hawken"- so the buzz was created about the "need" for the 58 to push the envelope for velocity and energy. Surely not needed for deer or elk here especially if accuracy is compromised.

[johnson1942]

ive used cryo + for years and years. she is on the internet and about the most reasonable around. ship parcel post or fedex ups looses a lot of gun barrels every year and they are hard to deal with. johnson1942.

[Hellgate]

To add to fouronesix's comment: The 58 Hawken in the Lyman Handbook was a heavy barreled gun from Lyman. I believe it was called the Hawken Hunter and is no longer made. It was at least 1" across the flats and maybe more. The Investarms is (I believe) 15/16 ths.