Any shooting a Schuetzen rifle?

[paul h]

I was looking at the various rifle competitions at our local club, and one that has kind peaked my interest is the Schuetzen rifle. I figure the combination of using cast bullets and a somewhat esoteric specialized rifle is what appeals to me.

I figure something somewhere between a 25-20 and 30-30 would be what I'm looking for. I just don't know the pus's and minus's of various rounds, or even who is building schuetzen rifles or where to find a used one.

[Gunlaker]

I recently bought a new CPA Stevens 44 1/2 for the purposes of learning Schuetzen shooting and messing with breech seating. It has barrels in .32-40 and .38-55. I've only put 20 rounds through it as I'm sorting through some mould issues. For info on the CPA rifles go here:

http://www.singleshotrifles.com/

The best place I've found for learning about Schuetzen shooting is the ASSRA web site.

Chris.

[John Boy]

Any shooting a Schuetzen rifle?
Yes - Multiple rifles and multiple matches
* 25yd Offhand using German 25 ring target
* 50yd Offhand
* 100-200-300, sometimes 100 and 200 offhand

* 25-20 converted from a H&R 28 ga shotgun ... good up to 100yds match
* 32-40 CPA with Fecker 12X scope - up to 200yd or meter match
* 38-55 HiWall - good up to 300 yds
* 22 LR Ballard, yes, there are 22 rimfire matches - good up to 100yds
(all above with globe front & vernier rears)
* 8.15x46R Schuetzen System Aydt - scope with Warne detachable rings - good up to 300yds
* 9.5x46R Schuetzen Martini Action - scope with Warne detachable rings - good up to 300yds
(Both Schuetzens with pin head fronts and platform post mounted rear diopters) Both are 100yr old rifles

Here's the receivers on the Martini Action -
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/DSC00553.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/IMGP1481.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/IMGP1486.jpg

[Gtek]

I am using two of the WIN-JAP HI-WALLS and I likes em just fine. The old guard looked down their noses a little at them several years ago when they were drug out with those big scopes- but hey,
I am there to make me happy. 30 W.C.F. and 32-40, Borden and Hoch. 14.2 of 4227 and 244 to 247 just about every time out. I do not win but it sure puts a burr in some britches. TORA-TORA-TORA! I am on the road to a 32 Miller build on another. Look at some of the really nice old CORRECT ones and you could buy five or more WIN-JAPS. Like anything- how high do you wish to fly? It is a blast slow and low and them old boy's will sure humble you when you see them post. Go to a match and I bet you will shoot more than one, as a whole I have found them to be a wonderful group of men/women and just about every one will show you everthing they have and how and what they are using. Gtek

[L Ross]

I am a slave to tradition and historical correctness. One of the reasons schuetzen interested me was the historical aspect. If you click on my profile you'll see a photo of me at the Davenport Schuetzenfest last year. I am shooting my Cody Ballard Schoyen style rifle in 32-40. To my interpretation schuetzen is off hand shooting only. Rest rifle shooting is often shot as part of the aggregate at matches but it is not schuetzen.
My advice is to go slow and do a lot of research first and spend your money wisely.

Duke

[calaloo]

Paul, to more understand what schuetzen is about today go to www.assra.com . Schuetzen is and was traditionally shooting offhand but many shooters shoot off the bench. There are many older people who shoot with us and the days of offhand shooting is over for them. I'm one of them but my son shoots a CPA Stevens offhand, Both in .22 RF and .23-40. The Stevens is a switch barrel so there is no problem shooting different calibers.

The CPA rifle is probably the best rifle to start with if only because you can get one set up exactly like you want for a very fair price. It is also very well built and is as accurate as any. A father/daughter team owns the company and they are a joy to work with.

Highwalls and Ballards and a few other lesser known actions are used. There are a few Martini's in .22 that do quite well. The Yost action may be going back into production.

As you probably know the bullets are usually breech seated and loading is done at the bench for each shot. There is a lot of kit attached to the sport. As to calibers, there is the tradional ones like .32-40 and .38-55. In the past several years many shooters are using cases like the .32 Miller short and the .2/357 Dell. These are made from .357 Max. cases that are shortened and tapered. Paul Shuttleworth at CPA has developed a case based on the .32-20 that is doing quite well. In fact I believe it was used to shoot the smallest 10 shot 200 yard group to date.

If you get involved in schuetzen you will certainly find a sport that will be a challenge. And also one that will cause you to strive to be a better shooter.

[451 Pete]

Paul,
One other thing that you may consider is going back in time even a bit further. The Schuetzen rifle that we think of in this country is the cartridge rifle. In Germany the history of the Schuetzen rifle and the Schuetzen Fest go's back into the muzzle loading era prior to the invention of the cartridge guns. I am a member of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association and at our home range in Friendship Indiana we hold several Schuetzen matchs at each of our two national shoots. Several years back I had a custom left handed Schuetzen rifle built in a muzzle loader. It has a .38 caliber bullet barrel from Green Mountain and shoots far better than my shooting ability. You may not want to go in this direction but it is another option you might want to consider. Cartridge or muzzle loader these rifles are a lot of fun and will challenge your shooting ability. Good luck and welcome aboard.

Pete

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc184b96233.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2881)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc181a62a75.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2876)

[John Boy]

Paul Shuttleworth at CPA has developed a case based on the .32-20 that is doing quite well. In fact I believe it was used to shoot the smallest 10 shot 200 yard group to date. I've seen Paul's target. Very impressive. And Gail has a couple of 250 targets that are also impressive. Both groups were shot with scoped rifles

John Louis out in CA has been shooting 32-40 and 38-55 reloads with Alliant 300-MP, magnum pistol powder. At 200 yds, they too are impressive

[paul h]

I appreciate everyones input. I did some googling and came across various sights you've mentioned, but your responses gave me a much better feel for the sport than reading through the rules.

What appeals to me is the challenge of it, if you can shoot a heavy rifle offhand with a low velocity round well, it'll make you a better shot in every position with a rifle. If I was going to shoot off a bench, I'd go modern.

While I appreciate the long tradition of Schuetzen, I doubt I'll be going with a front stuffer. A breach loaded cartridge round is traditional enough for me. The idea of a switch barrel rifle is also appealing.

I'll have to check the local clubs next scheduled match and attend as a spectator.

[KYridgerunner]

Pete,

Just found your post. I'd like to get into shooting a schuetzen muzzleloader. I have a 40 cal but I'm not sure what you guys shoot at Friendship. Anyone shoot roundballs? If shooting bullets are they picket type conicals or special cast types. Do you use open sights or peep. What kind of load for 100 and 200 yards. I've searched using Google but your post was the only thing close. Please reply via PM. Many thanks in advance. Hank

[sharps4590]

KY, this is a 9 year old thread. Hope someone sees it and responds to your question.

I shoot two Haenel/Aydt Schuetzen rifles but they aren't ML's.

[marlinman93]

Sometimes bringing up a very old thread is fun to get the discussion going again. But I doubt you'll find an answer from those who started this thread 9 years ago.
I love schuetzen rifles in general, but only have cartridge type schuetzen rifles in my shooting collection. So can't help with ML questions.

[Gunlaker]

Hank if you post your question on the ASSRA forum I'll bet you get some useful info. As here, most of the conversation is about cartridge rifles, but I'd be really surprised if there aren't a handful that shoot muzzle loading schuetzen rifles.

Chris.

[sharps4590]

Just for grins and giggles....here's my "nice" Haenel/Aydt Schuetzen rifle.

And one of my "not quite as nice" Haenel/Aydt but, just as good.
289934

[6string]

What a great thread and topic!
Schuetzen is awesome. Cool rifles, cast bullets, and serious marksmanship demands.

I highly recommend the Alte Scheibenwaffen book series. You will learn more about the sport and the arms than from any other resource. Lots of photos and cross section diagrams of every major type of actions and set triggers, and their variants.
Most of the info is cartridge related, but there is some muzzleloading stuff, too.

Asheville NC gun club used to have matches but no more!

[Chill Wills]

Nothing much to add to this thread except more pictures of old rifles.
A Hepburn in this configuration is not often seen.
I hold an informal fun match on Thursday's at 11am known as Schuetzen Thursday. It is a drop in fun match. No awards, 50 shots, any sight.
The "match" has much more following than I would have ever guessed when I started it. I offered it so I would have people to practice with. "build it and they will come" and they did.

[marlinman93]

What a great thread and topic!
Schuetzen is awesome. Cool rifles, cast bullets, and serious marksmanship demands.

I highly recommend the Alte Scheibenwaffen book series. You will learn more about the sport and the arms than from any other resource. Lots of photos and cross section diagrams of every major type of actions and set triggers, and their variants.
Most of the info is cartridge related, but there is some muzzleloading stuff, too.

Asheville NC gun club used to have matches but no more!

Aren't these two books pretty much about German schuetzen rifles, not American?

[marlinman93]

Nothing much to add to this thread except more pictures of old rifles.
A Hepburn in this configuration is not often seen.
I hold an informal fun match on Thursday's at 11am known as Schuetzen Thursday. It is a drop in fun match. No awards, 50 shots, any sight.
The "match" has much more following than I would have ever guessed when I started it. I offered it so I would have people to practice with. "build it and they will come" and they did.

Hepburn Match A are somewhat rare, and a higher grade Match B is even less often seen. The Hepburn Match rifles were beautiful examples of what Louis Hepburn's design was specifically intended for. The Hepburn's action design intent was a high end target rifle, and only later was expanded into a large variety of hunting, and other uses.
My Hepburn Match B in .32-40 B&M. Only Match B I've ever seen with a 34" barrel:

https://i.imgur.com/zkzcBKbl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7XraAfCl.jpg

[sharps4590]

Aren't these two books pretty much about German schuetzen rifles, not American?

Yes they are, thank God!! They also cover a great deal about the matches themselves. And, there's 4 books in the series.

[6string]

Aren't these two books pretty much about German schuetzen rifles, not American?

Actually, there are four books, I think. One is mostly on target (free) pistols, but also has lots on miscellaneous cool stuff. Great stuff!
Personally, the American rifles are largely derivative of their European counterparts. Lots of nice Schuetzen rifles came out of Switzerland. But, that can be confusing as the Swiss embraced the 300 meter free rifle match. Accordingly, they built "Schuetzen style" Martini action rifles in 7.5 x 55mm.

[David todd]

Just for grins and giggles....here's my "nice" Haenel/Aydt Schuetzen rifle.

And one of my "not quite as nice" Haenel/Aydt but, just as good.
289934

Very nice Haenels!
I have one as well,, an 8.15X46R

290201

[marlinman93]

Actually, there are four books, I think. One is mostly on target (free) pistols, but also has lots on miscellaneous cool stuff. Great stuff!
Personally, the American rifles are largely derivative of their European counterparts. Lots of nice Schuetzen rifles came out of Switzerland. But, that can be confusing as the Swiss embraced the 300 meter free rifle match. Accordingly, they built "Schuetzen style" Martini action rifles in 7.5 x 55mm.

Yes, the American schuetzen rifles were all influenced by Europeans who immigrated here, and brought their love of schuetzen shooting, and in some cases their rifles too. And some of the most famous custom gun makers building American schuetzen rifles were immigrants themselves. So they based their rebuilds of American rifle actions on what they already knew of guns back in their homelands.

[sharps4590]

David, is yours 8.15 also? Love the scope but don't want one on either of mine.

[David todd]

David, is yours 8.15 also? Love the scope but don't want one on either of mine.

8.15X46R, stamped with an "N" as well, it shoots an unsized .314 bullet really well.
I normally don't use the scope - just for load development , I have it set up with irons as well.:D
David

[dave roelle]

Have a look at Collectors Firearms Houston Tx

search the website for Schuetzen

[Lefty223]

What appeals to me is the challenge of it, if you can shoot a heavy rifle offhand with a low velocity round well, it'll make you a better shot in every position with a rifle. If I was going to shoot off a bench, I'd go modern.

^^^^^THIS!^^^^^

There is so much truth to that! When I am not shooting Schuetzen black powdah ‘cartridge’ rifles, I am shooting flintlocks, snaphaunce, wheellocks, matchlocks, arquebus and even hand gonnes from 1360.

Every Winter I run/shoot the muzzleloading primitive biathlons, using a smoothbore flintlock, 60” barrel, 75-caliber, on wooden snowshoes. Those shoots have not been held for the past 2-years due to Covid, so I shot the military offhand match at my local club from January to March.

I was shooting against Springfields, Garands, M14s or M1As … all offhand at 50 and 100-yards, and I was using an 1887 Italian Vetterli-Vitaly in rimmed 10.4x47R. Let’s just say that I placed 1st or 2nd at almost every match, and shot a 3” group offhand, witnessed at 100-yards. Our club sends about 30 shooters to the national every year, i.e., think Camp Perry or their new National range, and I would swap places with the Captain of our high-power rifle team at our club.

So, yes … to answer your question, anyone who can shoot a BP cartridge rifle or an older BP firearm with accuracy, will excel at every other shooting sport! If this picture uploads, this is the left-handed 38-55 CPA Schuetzen that I built, as a Stevens model 52, using metal work from Paul & Gail Shuttleworth.

Well … am sleeping on the boat tonight … not a good connection … will upload photos later …

[45workhorse]

Mighty purty rifles, old or new post. NICE!

[pettypace]

https://snubbyfest.000webhostapp.com/SSS/Mr_Brooks_with_Hudson_target.jpg

The old-timer in the photo was Philip E. Brooks (1879-1969). Mr. Brooks rubbed elbows with Harry Pope and other greats of the Schuetzen era. The target Mr. Brooks is holding is a facsimile (from the score sheet) of the record target fired by Doctor Hudson in (I think) 1901. The match was 100 shots off-hand at 200 yards on the German ring target. No sighters, no shooting jacket, cast lead bullets with no gas checks. And Hudson was using iron sights. I believe Doctor Hudson's score was 2301.

[Shanghai Jack]

Paul,
One other thing that you may consider is going back in time even a bit further. The Schuetzen rifle that we think of in this country is the cartridge rifle. In Germany the history of the Schuetzen rifle and the Schuetzen Fest go's back into the muzzle loading era prior to the invention of the cartridge guns. I am a member of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association and at our home range in Friendship Indiana we hold several Schuetzen matchs at each of our two national shoots. Several years back I had a custom left handed Schuetzen rifle built in a muzzle loader. It has a .38 caliber bullet barrel from Green Mountain and shoots far better than my shooting ability. You may not want to go in this direction but it is another option you might want to consider. Cartridge or muzzle loader these rifles are a lot of fun and will challenge your shooting ability. Good luck and welcome aboard.

Pete

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc184b96233.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2881)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_210184edc181a62a75.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2876)

Is that a Wattlander?