Can I just solder this muzzleloader barrel flash hole shut and re-drill?

[Whiterabbit]

Hi guys,

My buddy has a problem with his 58 cal:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/200824fc2f0ab438f8.jpg

It's a torch cause packing powder into the flash hole is the only way we can get it to reliably ignite. I'm told the flash hole is supposed to be a few mm higher, nicely between the pan halves.

Can I just use my mill to drill a new hole above that one there, then solder the lower hole shut?

[Bull Schmitt]

The problem may not be related to the location of the hole. Are you using ffffg priming powder? Is the hole clear of any debris?


I would not recommend soldering the hole shut. You MIGHT thread the hole and screw in a plug but with the new hole being very close to the original hole this would probably not work.

Why not drill and tap the barrel for a flash hole liner. You could even make your own liner and drill the hole in it wherever you want it.

[Whiterabbit]

can I just buy a liner? who makes them?

[seagiant]

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/960/1/thl-s5s

[R.M.]

Yup, liner is the way to go. The center-line of the hole should be at the top of the flash pan. That one is way too low.

[jblee10]

Nice link seagiant! Even tells where the vent should be located. In the sunset position.

[John Taylor]

You will need someone with a mill to move the original hole so the liner can be put in the correct position. Trying to do it with a drill press or hand drill will not work. May need a liner with large thread area to cover the old hole.
Solder is not a good idea but the hole could be plugged with a small screw and loctite.

[waksupi]

John, that would be a real good idea to put in a screw, and have a flat surface to work on. That would help avoid bit wander.

[docone31]

It looks like you can punch a new center, drill and tap. That will remove the old hole also.
Shouldn't be that difficult.
Start with a pilot drill to make sure of the center.

[Whiterabbit]

I DO have a mill :)

[TCLouis]

Milling Machine
Undersized hole will cut out old hole and correct the location.

Proper drill/milled hole, thread
Insert touch hole liner.
Shoot away!!

Remove and "lube touch hole liner occasionally

[uscra112]

"Track of the Wolf" in Minniesoter may have flash-hole liners. They've got everything else you can imagine for muzzleloaders.

[stocker]

How much material is there in the bottom of the pan? Can it be removed and the
depth increased with a ball mill?

[Whiterabbit]

what you see is there in the pic. Would that be just as effective as drilling out the barrel for a plug?

[lmcollins]

Pull the breech plug before you do anything!

If you don't pull the plug when the drill or mill goes into the barrel the tendency for the tool is for it to wander in the direction of least resistance. When it goes in it will hit the resistance of the plug, and give you an "oval" hole. (It will have a tendency to wnader towards the muzzle.) Also, don't forget that you need to get a tap into, and through the new hole to give you enough good threads to hold the new touch hole liner.

If you pull the breech plug you will have a better chance of succes. You might even have to chase the treads of the breech plug to get the pug to seat over the new liner.

The task is more involved than it first appears. Think it through first. I wouldn't touch it even with an end mill (If you have one of tap drill size) unless you pull the breech plug.

An oval hole will not take good threads - and you are holding a lot of preassure that can blow out the liner. The liner could become a lethal projectile to someone in line with it.

[John Taylor]

Pull the breech plug before you do anything!

If you don't pull the plug when the drill or mill goes into the barrel the tendency for the tool is for it to wander in the direction of least resistance. When it goes in it will hit the resistance of the plug, and give you an "oval" hole. (It will have a tendency to wnader towards the muzzle.) Also, don't forget that you need to get a tap into, and through the new hole to give you enough good threads to hold the new touch hole liner.

If you pull the breech plug you will have a better chance of succes. You might even have to chase the treads of the breech plug to get the pug to seat over the new liner.

The task is more involved than it first appears. Think it through first. I wouldn't touch it even with an end mill (If you have one of tap drill size) unless you pull the breech plug.

An oval hole will not take good threads - and you are holding a lot of preassure that can blow out the liner. The liner could become a lethal projectile to someone in line with it.

good point.

[Whiterabbit]

Even after using a center drill and finding a very short drill bit to reduce wander? My plan if I were to move forward with this project was to specifically buy the drill bit for this project rather than use an existing properly sized bit cause my bits are a couple inches long. I was thinking about buying one with the flutes an inch long or less.

I was actually more worried about the bit wandering towards the existing hole rather than toward the muzzle. Is it really more likely to wander toward the muzzle rather than the existing flash hole as I clean that out?

[lmcollins]

Take a flat ended rod and hold it against the breech plug. Mark it at the muzzle with a pencil. Hold it along side of the barrel. I think you'll see I'm correct.

The center of the pan should be where you drill your new hole. It should be level with, or just below the top of the pan. I like it Just about a few thousands beneath the top of the pan. You can always make the pan a bit deeper with a small round grinding point, or a ball mill.

I find that the best touch hole liner is a stainless 1/4 x 28 stainless set screw a quarter of an inch long. Tape your hole with a taper tap. With this rig your vent is counterbored from the OUTSIDE. You can keep it clean, and it doesn't become a repository for crud and oil that keeps your gun from firing if it is loaded for a long time.

I put a bar end in the lathe, tap drill it, run a few threads in it, and then put the set screw in the bar end with the tip out. The set screw center drills easily that way. Don't make your touch hole more than 1/16 of an inch max.

Even with your barrel locked in a compond vice like in a mill start your hole with a stiff center drill. A lite touch.

I"D STILL PULL THE PLUG FIRST!

[Whiterabbit]

How do I pull this?

You were right. The plug stops just behind the hole.

[John Taylor]

How do I pull this?

You were right. The plug stops just behind the hole.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/actionwrenchbreachplug.jpg

[lmcollins]

Well, Whiterabbit. I will say I told you so....

What you need to do is put the barrel in a box (well padded at both ends so it doesn't get knocked through the ends in shipping) and send it to John Taylor Machine.

If you do so I will send John Taylor a shipping envelope with 2 (as in one extra) 1/4 by 28 socketheaded stainless set screws. This will nodoubt cost me a couple of bucks, but it is better than having a friend kill himself or someone else: to say nothing of ruining a good gun out of ignorance.

Take a scribe and mark the top of the pan on the barrel so that Mr. Taylor can see EXACTLY where to drill the hole for the NEW touchhole liner. John should be able to do the job for a couple of hours of his time. It all depends on how the barrel comes apart. I am certain he knows to put antisieze on it when he re-assembles it and the new liner. The little scribe mark will burn right off after a little gold blue.

PM me with John's address if you want the screws sent to him. I'll send them First Class mail tapped to a card inside a padded shipping envelope.

Since you are talking about muzzleloading parts no FFL is required for shipping to-and-from John.

[Whiterabbit]

Still in planning stages Collins, I move slow when it comes to projects. Real slow. To make sure I am clear what I want, understand what's going on, and how action items will happen. No need to rush.

But I thank you very much for your generous offer!

[lmcollins]

As I said in my first post... think it through first.

This is why I enjoy this forum and the personnel about it. Much hard won experience to be shared, and believe me I've asked many questions, and looked dumb a time or two... or three.

Now you know where your at, and what kind of tools you need to do the job, and the questions to ask of anyone you turn it over to locally. For a bushing I like to use the smallest diameter you can. Holes can always be made bigger: if the first one wears out, or you screw up the first try. For liners try the Log Cabin Shop web site in Lodi, Ohio. They cary many types of liners in different sizes, both steal and berilium brass.

Experience, experience, experience, and hard lessons. Learn from the experience of others, and your own goof-ups.

Hit me up if you need more "experienced" advice. Unfortunately, I think John Taylor and I are both old enough to be "experienced." I am not always correct: but I am unfortunately experienced.

[John Taylor]

[QUOTE=lmcollins;1835914

Hit me up if you need more "experienced" advice. Unfortunately, I think John Taylor and I are both old enough to be "experienced." I am not always correct: but I am unfortunately experienced.[/QUOTE]

I never thought of myself as being old til I looked at my wife and realized I was married to a grandma. It's even worse when I realized I have a grandson in high school and my oldest son has no children.

A thought on this. If the breach plug was installed correctly it will be seated in two places at the same time. The more critical of the two is inside the barrel at the end of the plug to create a gas seal. If a flash hole liner is installed it needs to be in front of this seal or it will destroy the seal. I see a lot of factory guns and even old originals that do not have the breach plug fitted correctly and the gas is allowed to leak into the threaded area. This is one of the main things that causes the threads to rust. T/C may have had a good idea with their breach plugs by making them longer and shaped like the end of the barrel, sometimes referred to as a patent breach. The flash hole is in the breach plug and not the barrel so it will not effect the threads or gas seal.

[lmcollins]

The patent breech needs to seat both at the bottom of the recess against the shoulder at the bottom of the threads, and index the octagon flats on the patten breech against the end of the barrel. The shoulder at the base of the threads in the barrel is the part many people screw up on.

Your outfit looks to be an old fashiond type flint breech that only seats against the bottom of the threads in the barrel, and the top of the barrel tang needs to index with the top barrel flat. It needs to be taken apart and put together again in the same manner as the factory did it. DON"T streetch it out by over tightening it.

If the gun wasn't already built, and the lock inletted into the stock you could fool around. Now you have a completed assembly, and the lock and its inlet, and the barrel and its touch hole all have to fit together the way it was made at the factory. This is why I told you to scribe the barrel right at the top of the pan so John Taylor would know where to put the new touch hole. The old one is probably off a bit, so now you can make it correct: like the facory should have. With a good octagon vice to hold the barrel, and a good breech plug wrench, you can stretch out the unhardened barrel steel and screw the whole thing up.

If you look at John's nice picture: you wiil note that he has the barrel clamped just in front of where the threads in the barrel stop by a short amount. Maybe a half inch. Not much more.

When I fit a breech plug of this type and the side of the root of the tang are parallel I use a cresent wrench of about 12 inches with unbuggerd jaws. The tricky part is to have two half octogon sets of jaws to put in the vice to hold the barrel without buggering it - and holding it tight. I suggest a wrap of newspaper or tablet paper to keep the jaws off of the barrel, but not enough paper to make it loose in the jaws. Protect your finish.

As I said at the start. The job is more complicated than it might look at first, to those uninformed in these matters. John would probably "see" all of this if he had the whole "gun mess" in front of him.

Experience.... That's why I say scribe the barrel right at the top of the lock's pan, and send it to John Taylor. Well worth the money since the gun doesn't sound to be worth much as is. I believe I read years ago of the touch holes in some of these Italian copies to be way off in Muzzle Blasts magazine. Who knows what might have to be done to get it in the correct position on this gun.

I hope for your success whatever you do. Glad I had the time, and information to give you.

If I sounded as if I were talking down to you I'm sorry.

[10x]

It would be much less problem to lower the floor of the flash pan.

[curator]

Several articles in various muzzle loading gun magazines have indicated that the touch hole "sunset" position may not be as critical as we all believed. You may be able to get away with slightly deepening the pan so the touch hole is completely exposed, not partly covered as it appears in the photo. I have a couple of flintlock muskets with touch holes at the bottom of their pans and they fire just fine if properly primed.

The touch hole liner is good to have regardless, but you will have to pull the breech plug before installing one. Trackofthewolf has them. I prefer the AMPCO Berillium alloy as it is nearly everlasting.

[TCLouis]

Packing the touch hole with powder makes it a fuze or plugged flash hole and has the opposite effect one would assume. It needs to be open so the flash of fire from the priming charge in the pan enters the flash hole and ignites the main charge, not burns its way in.

TOO much powder in the pan can also be a detriment, rather than help also.

[Timmer]

before you do any drilling or such, place your primming powder (4F) so that it fills the pan to the bottom of the flash hole and close the frizen, then bump the lock so that the priming powder is moved as far away from the touch hole as possible. Now fire the gun. If your lock is a good one your rifle will fire, quickly too.

[fouronesix]

Ya I kinda agree with the posts saying that it may not be in too bad of a position as is. Take a look-see at the sticky on flinters at the top of the ML section. The only thing I see with the hole is it is slightly lower than conventional wisdom (whatever that is!) and it "appears" kind of large (photos can be misleading). No doubt with about a half pan (or filled to about the bottom edge of the hole) of FFFF it should fire pretty fast if the lock/frizzen function well. And, if the hole is large, it will really blow torch when fired :)