Are Hollow Points Worth the effort?

[Wilson]

I posted up on the Hunting with CB forum and was surprised at the number of negative reviews of hunting with HPs, such as the damage to the meat and the need to match alloy to bullet velocity etc.
My questions are:

Are cast HPs worth the effort and expense? Why?
Do HPs do anything better than flat points? What?

I've been casting with LEE 6 cavity molds and one Lyman 4 cavity for the last 3 years of so. I just started casting HPs this week with four new molds and I've got $600 worth of HP molds on order! :shock: I would just as soon cancel the remaining molds if there is no significant advantage/return for the cost and time involved. I bought two of the molds for hunting deer and hogs (.44 and .45) and two for hunting varmints and for self defense (9mm and .40).
I should have asked these questions $500 ago!:oops:
Thanks for your comments and experiences.

[44man]

Depends, depends! Alloy will control opening too fast or slow so you need a balance to keep penetration high.
The .44 needs no expansion with a flat point at the proper velocity, the .45 Colt does well too until distance gets far, then a little will aid it.
The .475 and .500 JRH needs no expansion at all. Go a lot faster like the .454, .460 and .500 S&W, then just enough will help keep the boolit from being a hole punch.
That massive expansion you see on a jug of water can be the worst thing you do on a deer. Too hard and fast is the next.
You need to regulate your boolit for distance, velocity and size of the game.
In the hunting field is where you learn by seeing what a boolit does in an actual animal. The goal is tremendous internal damage with no meat loss and full penetration.
Never fall into the extreme expansion trap.

[waksupi]

Just to demonstrate how a flat point boolit works, try this. Go to a lake, and throw a rock in the water. Watch as the rock enters. The water splashes away from the perimeter of the rock, leaving a temporary cavity much larger than the rock. That is what a flat nose boolit is doing as it enters an animal.

[paul h]

(sic)

Are cast HPs worth the effort and expense? Why?
Do HPs do anything better than flat points? What?

(sic)

As with most things cast, it depends.

Just as with jacketed bullets, there are ways to adjust the bullets design to affect the wound channel. In the extreme you can either have deep penetration and a small dia wound channel, or shallow penetration and a large dia wound channel.

If you've found when hunting that a flat point bullet gives you more than enough penetration and you'd like a larger dia wound channel, then it would be worth investingating using a hp. I think the 357 magnum is a fine candidate as it seems to be just on the verge of not creating a large enough wound channel when using flat point bullets.

The 44, 45 and even bigger rounds can shoot stem to stern in deer, so if you're only taking broadside heart/lung shots, a hp should provide bit more dramatic kill, without giving up too much penetration.

If you're hunting varmints with your handguns, no such thing as too much penetration.

So, worth the effort and expense? I dunno, I got my first mihec and found it's no more effort to cast than a fp mold. Expense, well I'm always trying another mold or two just to see how the bullet works. Not sure if I'll persue deer with my 357 this year, but if I do I'll likely be using a 359640 hp.

[pdawg_shooter]

Anything 40cal and larger don't need a hollow point, IMHO.

[sbeatty1983]

I posted up on the Hunting with CB forum and was surprised at the number of negative reviews of hunting with HPs, such as the damage to the meat and the need to match alloy to bullet velocity etc.
My questions are:

Are cast HPs worth the effort and expense? Why?
Do HPs do anything better than flat points? What?

I've been casting with LEE 6 cavity molds and one Lyman 4 cavity for the last 3 years of so. I just started casting HPs this week with four new molds and I've got $600 worth of HP molds on order! :shock: I would just as soon cancel the remaining molds if there is no significant advantage/return for the cost and time involved. I bought two of the molds for hunting deer and hogs (.44 and .45) and two for hunting varmints and for self defense (9mm and .40).
I should have asked these questions $500 ago!:oops:
Thanks for your comments and experiences.

for 9mm and .40 sd loads i would rather go with one of the jacketed bullets out there that has been tested and designed for that specific purpose. Gold dots and XTPs are readily found for reloading and both have a great track record.

[Larry Gibson]

Are cast HPs worth the effort and expense? Why?

Depends on what you consider "effort" and "expense". If cast with an HP mould the initial cost is a bit more and you are casting with a single cavity mould so casting a given quanity takes more time and effort. As compared to casting with non HP single cavity moulds I find notmuch more effort involved at all. If one uses a Forster HP tool (quite inexpensive and very effective if used correctly) then you simply use the non HP moulds you already have from single to multiple cavities.

I use both HP moulds and the Forster tool with complete satisfaction. Since I cast HPs for hunting only the "ffort" is well worth the better terminal effectiveness and the cost is nil.

Do HPs do anything better than flat points? What?

Most often they kill quicker. I've nothing against using SWCs or WFN'd cast fo hunting and in fact have used them and will again if I have too. They will do the job if you put the bullet in the right place. HP'd cast bullets with proper HP design and alloy for the game and impact velocity range will, in fact, produce more internal damage. This is why detractors complain of "wasted meat". More internal damage means greater terminal effect; i.e. the animal dies quicker. That may not be important to some but itis to many of us. We have also found, contrary to the negative reports, that a well designed HP that expands properly does not "waste" enough more meat to get concerned about.

Killing quicker if hunting in dense foilage can mean the difference between finding or losing an animal. Perhaps not a concern to all but if you ever have lost a well shot deer in such and not found it you will understand. I would rather "waste" a little meat than lose the whole animal. I have been hunting with HPs for many years and they do, most often, kill quicker with a given shot, with the deer/game traveling much less after being shot.

The "effort" to me with HPs is that you must use an appropriate alloy to match the impact velocity over the expected ranges you will be shooting. This can take a little experimentation but to me it is well worth the effort.

Lastly, let me mention that if you HP a traditional FP, SWC or WFN and it does not expand you still have all of the benifits of the origianl design. Thus you can have the benifit of expansion from the HP and all the benifits of the FN, SWC or WFN'd cast bullet for hunting.

Only you can answer hether the additional "effort" and "cost" is worth it.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Depends on what you need to accomplish.

How about this? Self defense application, but similar to hunting application. The
penetration in wet phone books is just at half of what you would get in
ballistic gelatin.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=3952

With a Cramer style mold they drop pretty fast. Check out Erik's site
at Hollowpoint Services, IIRC.

Bill

[Wilson]

Good info. I appreciate you all sharing. I got into HPs because I wanted to try something different. I guess the concern I have is not knowing how to figure the alloy for the application. 98% of all our deer and pig killing happens in the 20-80 yard range. If I get on a pipeline or a bean field I'll take an appropriate rifle with j bullets, but I'd rather kill game at 16 yards (two bucks year before last still hunting) than 600 yards our of a tower blind. I'm more of a hunter than a shooter.
What would be a good alloy for .44 mag .45 Colt? I did my first batch with clip on WW plus 2% tin.

"you can have the benifit of expansion from the HP and all the benifits of the FN, SWC or WFN'd cast bullet for hunting". I like that statement. That helps make the HP worth the effort to me.

"Killing quicker if hunting in dense foilage can mean the difference between finding or losing an animal." We do hunt some pretty dense cover since Katrina stirred things up down here, so a quicker kill is a good thing.

My EDC is loaded with factory CorBon and I've been hunting and killing with XTPs our of a Glock 20 for the last two years.

[44man]

Depends on what you need to accomplish.

How about this? Self defense application, but similar to hunting application. The
penetration in wet phone books is just at half of what you would get in
ballistic gelatin.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=3952

With a Cramer style mold they drop pretty fast. Check out Erik's site
at Hollowpoint Services, IIRC.

Bill
Good for a BG in a hoody! Not for animals. A bone hit will just stop it. You will not have 2 holes in a deer so there will be no blood trail.
This is what you want. 4 jugs blown sky high, 2 more split and complete penetration of 17 gallon jugs of water, boolit not found.
Hard WFN at 1350 fps.

[44man]

That boolit penetrates 37" of soaked phone books.

[45 2.1]

Good for a BG in a hoody! Not for animals. A bone hit will just stop it. You will not have 2 holes in a deer so there will be no blood trail.

Oh... you are sooo wrong on that. I get my information from actual tests on deer.

[Blammer]

Just to demonstrate how a flat point boolit works, try this. Go to a lake, and throw a rock in the water. Watch as the rock enters. The water splashes away from the perimeter of the rock, leaving a temporary cavity much larger than the rock. That is what a flat nose boolit is doing as it enters an animal.

now go throw a boulder in the lake, notice the difference. that's a HP. :):kidding:

[runfiverun]

wilson:
cut that 2% tin alloy with some soft i use 25% for just about everything. [depending on my poured diameter]
some cut it back to 50% ,some waterdrop, some don't, depending on the situation.

[white eagle]

there are no certainties in hunting that is for certain
I try to take broadside shots for heart lung damage
If you can wait on a shot and not blaze away when you see a deer
your chances at that type of shot will come
matching your alloy for hp's isn't all that difficult
even the jacketed bullet makers strive for expansion
remember the phrase the deadliest mushroom in the woods?
match the hp and the alloy and the velocity you seek and you will have it made

[JeffinNZ]

I think Glen Fryxell's article in the LASC site (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCastHPTNG.htm)covers this rather well. He refers to the golden age of HP's in 'express' loads when a HP boolit vastly improved the performance of a BP velocity load (1100-1500fps).

For me HP cast alloy boolits just add another dimension to an already fascinating hobby.

[L1A1Rocker]

I read an article (reposted somewhere) about Elmer Keith praising hollow points for hunting.

If you do go with hollow points be sure to stay away from the single cavity spike method. That's a REAL pain. Miha makes some great cramer style molds that are about as easy as a regular mold.

Also, your alloy is too brittle. A good starting point would be 50/50 WW with pure. You could also do a little research on these boards on who has tried what, with what kind of success. There really has been a lot done and posted already.

Good luck.

[Griz44mag]

I cast hollow points but the only meat I would be willing to shoot with them is the kind that pays an unscheduled visit in the middle of the night, in which case, the goal is to ruin as much meat as possible.

[1Shirt]

Yep, agree with them that says depends! If if is your bag, and you are happy with them great, if not than, dont shoot them. Extra time, extra effort, etc.etc.etc.
I am not hung up on HP's for handgun, but do like them for rifle for accuracy particularly for the little ones (22'S).
1Shirt!

[btroj]

In the end that is a decision each of us needs to make.
I don't cast many HP bullets but I don't have lots of free time to spend on them.

Cast froma proper alloy for the load they work very well on deer. Cast one too hard and drive it fast and you can get very poor penetration. Trust me, I know!

I just don't see much need for lots of HP Boolits. It that is just what fits my specific needs. Your needs will determine what you do.

[Beagle333]

For me HP cast alloy boolits just add another dimension to an already fascinating hobby.

This is it exactly! [smilie=s:

[dragonrider]

For me no they are not, All my boolits end up in the same berm, don't hunt anymore, but I use Mihecs HP molds and they are so cool and so easy to use that I can cast HP's as quickly as when making flat points. So I make them anyway even though they have no purpose for me.

[44man]

It was a long time until I could hunt with a revolver, when I left Ohio they allowed it that year but it was legal in WV. The .44, 240 gr XTP was my most accurate so I started shooting deer with it. I shot 3 behind the shoulder, no big bone hits. They died alright, some going 60 yards but I was able to see them go down. No brush in the way. I recovered all 3 bullets against the rib cage, nice mushrooms.
What changed my mind was when I back tracked them to where they were hit. NO BLOOD other then a speck here and there. I always back track. I could not break through the other side because the bullets opened too fast. I kept thinking of a big bone hit so I went to the LBT 320 gr WLN. That cured the blood trail problem quick and deer did not even travel as far. Another jacketed is the 300 gr XTP that works.
There is not enough velocity with a revolver to keep a fast opening bpolit going and there are a thousand accounts of fast opening boolits failing in very large animals.
Tame the expansion so the boolit does not stop. Two holes with internal damage and I do not even shoot deer with a bow that can not shoot through them.
I have killed between 375 to 400 deer, lost count long ago but I stopped with 5 last season because I had nobody to give deer to but I many times get 7. During orchard deer culls in Ohio with unlimited tags I shot many more. I have done a necropsy on every deer to see what went on inside.
I know what a .44 and .45 Colt does at 20 yards, 50 yards and 100 yards. I know what round balls and maxi balls do to over 100 yards.
Some velocities NEED expansion but control it, never use anything that opens too fast. If you shoot high velocities never use hard boolits.

[45 2.1]

Some velocities NEED expansion but control it, never use anything that opens too fast.

Jim.... you ever here of Nosler Partition bullets? Guess what they do....................... Look it up if you don't know. Cast handgun hunting boolits can do exactly the same thing if you get your molds from the right guy. Been proven over quite a few years and deer now....... no bone shots necessary either.

[44man]

Jim.... you ever here of Nosler Partition bullets? Guess what they do....................... Look it up if you don't know. Cast handgun hunting boolits can do exactly the same thing if you get your molds from the right guy. Been proven over quite a few years and deer now....... no bone shots necessary either.
Yes, they open fast but I never used any .44 revolver bullets from them. I will not claim they open too fast because I don't know. Is expansion controlled better? There are great expanding .44 bullets but the 240 XTP is fast-too fast. I understand the 240 gr Gold Dot works like a charm. Each bullet has differences in jacket thickness and core.
Bullet makers have worked forever to get it right for each bullet and caliber. We have the best bullets ever made today. Problem is they cost big bucks.
That does not remove the need to alter cast for the animal, velocity or caliber.
Take my BFR 45-70. I lost 2 deer with it using a WLN too hard. I made a WFN and still had problems of deer going 200+ yards. Opening them showed little blood in the cavity with a double lung hit. Easing out the lungs showed nice lungs with a small hole through them. I actually went to the Hornady rifle bullet for the next. Then Babore sent me some 50-50 hollow points that I oven hardened. It was like taping a grenade to the deer! :holysheep Exit blew a shoulder to mush and I lost a lot of meat to bloodshot. I have the velocity for penetration. I am still working on the boolit to get it right. This is not easy because it takes kills to see. Shooting a jug of water or wet paper shows nothing of value.
Then a friends daughter shot a deer with a .223, perfect shot, no blood. I found it later between 100 and 150 yards away, gutted it for her and seen the bullet only made 6" into the lungs. Same deal, a better bullet would have gone deeper and a harder bullet would have poked a tiny hole.
It is why I do not believe in muzzle energy or energy dump, only what the boolit does in passage and I don't care if the boolit has 1000 fp after exit.
Too many deer, I stand over one for a long time before taking out the knife and I hate to butcher so much you can't believe but meat never goes to waste. I thank the lord for every one and hate to smile for a picture, you will never see me jump up and down like an idiot over a kill. But every one tells a tale about a boolit.

[Char-Gar]

I read an article (reposted somewhere) about Elmer Keith praising hollow points for hunting.

If you do go with hollow points be sure to stay away from the single cavity spike method. That's a REAL pain. Miha makes some great cramer style molds that are about as easy as a regular mold.

Also, your alloy is too brittle. A good starting point would be 50/50 WW with pure. You could also do a little research on these boards on who has tried what, with what kind of success. There really has been a lot done and posted already.

Good luck.

Uh not quite. Keith thought HPs were OK on small game and deer, but verboten on big game.

[Char-Gar]

I have a number of HP molds and have cast lots of HP bullets over the years. That said, there is lots of truth in the above thread.

1. It takes the right alloy and velocity for a HP to do it's thing correctly.

2. A 44 or 45 caliber bullet does not need a hollow point to kill cleanly.

3. Hollow points can be very effective in 30 caliber rifles if #1 above is correct.

4. No hollow point will ever replace shot placement...never.

So are they worth the effort?

I don't think so. You can always hollow point a few with a drill press, lathe or Forester attachement to their case trimmer, if you must have them for hunting.

[Wayne Smith]

Yeah, Keith wanted a hard solid on big game.

As for HP's consider the Gould HP (457122), the prototypical HP for the 45-70. Designed to be cast of 30-1 and a very small HP pin. You have expansion without the explosive expansion and you have penetration adequate for deer sized game. HP size and shape matter as much as velocity and alloy.

[44man]

Yeah, Keith wanted a hard solid on big game.

As for HP's consider the Gould HP (457122), the prototypical HP for the 45-70. Designed to be cast of 30-1 and a very small HP pin. You have expansion without the explosive expansion and you have penetration adequate for deer sized game. HP size and shape matter as much as velocity and alloy.
Very true. Some take me wrong but I do love a hollow point myself.
They are accurate. Just take control of them.
I am still learning myself. I doubt I will live long enough to get it right.
You see, it is all of you that need to rely on your experiences. Depend on nothing but what you see yourself.

[45 2.1]

Yes, they open fast but I never used any .44 revolver bullets from them. I will not claim they open too fast because I don't know. Is expansion controlled better? There are great expanding .44 bullets but the 240 XTP is fast-too fast. I understand the 240 gr Gold Dot works like a charm. Each bullet has differences in jacket thickness and core.
Bullet makers have worked forever to get it right for each bullet and caliber. We have the best bullets ever made today. Problem is they cost big bucks.
That does not remove the need to alter cast for the animal, velocity or caliber.
Take my BFR 45-70. I lost 2 deer with it using a WLN too hard. I made a WFN and still had problems of deer going 200+ yards. Opening them showed little blood in the cavity with a double lung hit. Easing out the lungs showed nice lungs with a small hole through them. I actually went to the Hornady rifle bullet for the next. Then Babore sent me some 50-50 hollow points that I oven hardened. It was like taping a grenade to the deer! :holysheep Exit blew a shoulder to mush and I lost a lot of meat to bloodshot. I have the velocity for penetration. I am still working on the boolit to get it right. This is not easy because it takes kills to see. Shooting a jug of water or wet paper shows nothing of value.
Then a friends daughter shot a deer with a .223, perfect shot, no blood. I found it later between 100 and 150 yards away, gutted it for her and seen the bullet only made 6" into the lungs. Same deal, a better bullet would have gone deeper and a harder bullet would have poked a tiny hole.
It is why I do not believe in muzzle energy or energy dump, only what the boolit does in passage and I don't care if the boolit has 1000 fp after exit.
Too many deer, I stand over one for a long time before taking out the knife and I hate to butcher so much you can't believe but meat never goes to waste. I thank the lord for every one and hate to smile for a picture, you will never see me jump up and down like an idiot over a kill. But every one tells a tale about a boolit.

There are other ways that work quite well, allready tested out and ready to go. You might try them if you've got the time.

[white eagle]

why would you oven harden a 50/50 hp ?
why not cast them out of linotype ?
you got a perfect alloy and you ruined it

[MtGun44]

Linotype is brittle and will shatter. 50-50 will bend because it is malleable.

Hardness required is dependent on velocity, cavity size and shape.

The "blow the nose off" method has been reported to work well, but does cause
a lot of meat damage.

Bill

[45 2.1]

The "blow the nose off" method has been reported to work well, but does cause a lot of meat damage.
Bill

It does if you insist on shoulder shooting something. Shoot it in the heart lung area and the animal dies, there or very close to there. Two holes, one in and one out with the in between thoroughly disrupted. 357 mag and below let a deer run about 30 to 50 yards. 41 mag and above usually keep the animal in its tracks if it wasn't spooked to begin with. Deer and smaller size animals here. If your going to shoot big game and armored gristle plate on boars, then 44 mans bluff nosed solids work quite well then.

[paul h]

I'm looking forward to the 400gr hp mold in .447 for my 480. I figure if the alloy doesn't upset, I've got a 400gr 48 caliber ogival wadcutter, if it does upset I get a pretty dramatic wound cavity, and if the nose blows off, I have a ~300gr 48 caliber wadcutter. Can't really loose any way you cut it.

[fatnhappy]

Just to demonstrate how a flat point boolit works, try this. Go to a lake, and throw a rock in the water. Watch as the rock enters. The water splashes away from the perimeter of the rock, leaving a temporary cavity much larger than the rock. That is what a flat nose boolit is doing as it enters an animal.

You guys certainly have a funny way of fishing out there. Is there anything left of the fish to release?

As to the original question, yes I believe they're worth it.

[44man]

why would you oven harden a 50/50 hp ?
why not cast them out of linotype ?
you got a perfect alloy and you ruined it
Just to make it tough enough to take the rifling. It does no harm at all to the ductile properties of the alloy. They expand like crazy without breaking.
This is an oven hardened 50-50 hollow point at 20 BHN. I lost an entire shoulder.

[44man]

We should discuss a larger caliber with water dropped WW metal to compare. NO expansion but shot at 1350 fps that is perfect. This was the .475.
We tread a fine line. The cast boolit will do nothing all the way to utter destruction.
Yes, the revolver can be so nasty many rifles can not compare. How to get perfection? Darn, I am still working. My advantage is I have a lot of deer to hunt while many of our friends here are lucky to get a shot. I want to do my best to make their shot bring home meat.

[94Doug]

You've only spent $600?

[fredj338]

I think so, but I just like making things that work. Nothing a well done LHP won;t do vs a jacketed, especially in larger bores.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0041.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg

[44man]

I pull my hair to get a balance. Fast and clean kills without ruining meat.
I think it is because I love the animals too much and a loss hurts deeply. To waste too much meat also hurts because it was no sense shooting them if you can't use it all.
I have spent half a night with a fishing lantern to find a deer many times. Been on my knees for hours on a trail. I don't like that stuff. I want a huge blood trail and a dead deer fast. Don't brag on your deer, be humble and do the best you can. I hate to say how many I have killed, it is just to show things that fail or work with experience. I feel some things that work for a few deer might fail you down the road.
I had a bad experience last week that still brings tears. I was at the vet with my little dog when a young man brought in the cutest little dog to be put down. The poor thing was 15 and lost all control, could not stand or go pot. The picture of the two of them will never go away. Sorry, I can not kill a tame rabbit or chicken either.

[L1A1Rocker]

Uh not quite. Keith thought HPs were OK on small game and deer, but verboten on big game.

Um, not exactly. While not the exact article I remember reading it's good enough to demonstrate Keith's work with hollow points and what they were to be used for. http://www.sixguns.com/crew/cast_hollow_points.htm

On edit: I think this was the article I first read about Keith liking the Hollow point for hunting medium sized game. http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

[Mal Paso]

Here is a 254g 429640 96/2/2 Alloy 12-14 BHN Air Cooled launched with 14g 2400 @ about 925 fps. There are red dots above entry and exit. The hollow-point exploded in the water and only the140g base made it out past the cap and 1 inch into punk cedar. Most of the energy dumped inside the jug blowing the side out. Found pieces of the hollow-point inside the jug but most left sideways with the water. First experiments, expansion wasn't smooth but I think I found hydro-shock.

[45 2.1]

Here is a 254g 429640 96/2/2 Alloy 12-14 BHN Air Cooled launched with 14g 2400 @ about 925 fps. There are red dots above entry and exit. The hollow-point exploded in the water and only the140g base made it out past the cap and 1 inch into punk cedar. Most of the energy dumped inside the jug blowing the side out. Found pieces of the hollow-point inside the jug but most left sideways with the water. First experiments, expansion wasn't smooth but I think I found hydro-shock.

Try your expansion test in a hillside of wet uniform clay. Shoot into a vertical surface you cut into it. It will show the permanent expansion cavity depth and diameter. I've found thiese depths are about half of what happens in real living flesh.

[Oreo]

Is ballistics gelatin that expensive / hard to find that so many sub-standard media are being used?

Its a genuine question. I don't know. Never tested a hp before.

[Blammer]

Oreo, yes it's expensive.

[1Shirt]

Think the reason a make it a point to read all of 44 Man's posts are because, after over 12000 posts, and obviously a vast amount of experiance, he still admits that he is still learning. I admire that, because there are many who have minimal experiance, and who think that they have learned all there is to know about casting, boolits, HP's, etc,etc.etc. I have been at this casting and shooting business now for well over 50 years, and I learn from this website every day. I continue learning every time I go to the range, and every time I try a new load, and etc.etc.etc. I also real all of Larry's, and Brets, and Bens, and Beagles threads, and a few others. Figure they might as well put me under the sod on a day that I don't learn something usefull.
1Shirt!

[Wilson]

After re-reading Glen E. Fryxell's book, I'm going to stay in the HP game and keep the molds I have on order for now. I'll be working with HPs this hunting season. If they don't work out I did order the pins to make solids.
Once again thanks for your comments and suggestions!

[Fenring]

I hunt pigs with the .44 Devastator and IMO they are very much well worth the effort for my use.

I haven't tested them on water jugs, gelatin, buckets of mud or stacks of wet paper - just on live animals in the field, many times over. So I don't know if that counts when compared to more "scientific" methods. :D

That said, a good wide flat nose (the Lee 310 in my case) is also very good.

I just think that for my usage the HP is more of a good thing. Big diameter, sufficient penetration and dramatic expansion = bags of killing power.

[PS Paul]

As always, Mr. Larry gibson has some terrific advice to share! I have done a lot of different things over the years with flat point/hollow point/wide meplat/SWC/etc., but i found some great info from Glen Fryxell as well on www.lasc.us The Los Angeles Silhoutte Club web site has links to Glenn's writings and there are a couple of really informative pieces on the subject.

[Wilson]

Fenring,
Fryxell agrees with your choice. The following is quoted from his book.
"The .44 Magnum Devastator is the real hunter of the new generation of HP's. The 429640 HP is a HP version of their now discontinued RNFP design (an excellent bullet that should have never been dropped). When cast with sweetened WW alloy, these HP's drop from the blocks at 260 grains (the parent GC-FP drops from my mould at 284 grains when cast of a similar alloy, revealing the removal of 24 grains of bullet metal to create the cavity; again, these are big holes!). Excellent accuracy is obtained with this HP when loaded over 22.5 grains of W296 and a CCI 350 primer in .44 Magnum cases, developing over 1400 fps from a 7 ½” Ruger Super Blackhawk. Expansion on mule deer is positive, and as a result of the greater bullet weight of this HP (relative to the lighter semi-auto Devastators) penetration is very good. Deer, black bear, and even elk are fair game for this bullet. This is arguably the single most useful cast bullet on the market today for the American handgun hunter. "

[fredj338]

Is ballistics gelatin that expensive / hard to find that so many sub-standard media are being used?

Its a genuine question. I don't know. Never tested a hp before.

And it's diff to work with. Wetpack had been the bullet industry std for decades & still works as well as gello for testing expansion. Penetration in properly prep wetpack is about 75% of gello. Neither replicates flesh as flesh is not homogenous. Expansion is nearly identical & both replicate results I have exp in the field. Which bullet below was wetpack & which came from a good size elk? I trust wetpack to give me the answers. Water is quite hard & dirt substitutes also quite hard.:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/210GRNP.jpg

[PS Paul]

MAN! Look at the size of the gas checks on those boolits!!:guntootsmiley:

[Wilson]

I had never heard of Wetpack. Found Wet Pack prep here. http://www.frfrogspad.com/wetpak.htm
It is a copy of "Water Soaked Newspapers: An Alternative for 10% Ordnance Gelatin," by George Bredsten, in Volume 3, No. 1, of Wound Ballistics Review.

[Love Life]

Are hollowpoints worth it? I guess it depends who you ask. I prefer solids for hunting, woods bumming, and personal carry.

However, I cast hollowpoints because it is awesome and if the expand like they are supposed to should make them very worth it indeed.

[nanuk]

Too many deer, I stand over one for a long time before taking out the knife and I hate to butcher so much you can't believe but meat never goes to waste. I thank the lord for every one and hate to smile for a picture, you will never see me jump up and down like an idiot over a kill. But every one tells a tale about a boolit.


I understand exactly what you are saying.


some folks reactions on TV make me sick

[40Super]

I have about a 100lb slab of soft wax that I am starting to use for testing. So far it seems to be working good,but I think it acts too much like water and stops the bullet faster than it should. All peices are able to be found though so I can see what went on inside.

44man: I have lost several friends over their desire to shoot deer no matter what. I passed on the largest buck I've seen because it was on the otherside of the fence, on someone elses land. I was just happy to see it,I didn't HAVE to shoot it.Others couldn't let it go.

[Thumbcocker]

A hunters story is always about the critter, the gun, and the boolit not about themselves. Not all who perforate critters are hunters.

[44man]

I gain more respect each day here for my friends. To experience the great animals without having to kill shows true sportsmanship.
We need to keep our herd down, true. It must be done for health. I have deer in the yard every day and they ignore me and my dogs. I just will not hunt my woods because I would hate to shoot one of them. I will go way down the road.
I will not even hunt squirrels close to the house because they come to our bird feeders.

[Griz44mag]

I will not even hunt squirrels close to the house because they come to our bird feeders.

LOL, reasoning is what you want it to be. This is the EXACT reason I do hunt squirrels close to home. The pesky little rodents will dig all of the feed out of the bird feeder and scatter it on the ground just so they can snack on the few sunflowers that are mixed in with it.

Once I have the freezer well stocked, I will still go stalk and hunt - with my camera.

[GLynn41]

IF YOU have a cramer style or Eric bar style HP mold they are no more trouble to cast than a normal bullet -- I know the flat nose will work no doubt but I do not doubt these cast HPs will work too -- and right now they are what I use in my higher velocity handguns-- for my normal .41 likely it will be solids -----casting hps are not a problem even the old way can be doen quickly -- unless you want of course you about about 300 an hour :)

[44man]

LOL, reasoning is what you want it to be. This is the EXACT reason I do hunt squirrels close to home. The pesky little rodents will dig all of the feed out of the bird feeder and scatter it on the ground just so they can snack on the few sunflowers that are mixed in with it.

Once I have the freezer well stocked, I will still go stalk and hunt - with my camera.
I am too soft! :D I guess it comes with age! No, not exactly that. I could never kill a tame rabbit but killed a zillion wild ones. I love squirrel hunting but just can't shoot one that is not afraid of me.
I feel the same about sitting in a house blind with a rifle to shoot deer on a food plot at 200 yards. That is not hunting.
Varmints are different when they cause damage or cost. I will say nothing about your situation if they cause damage. I have had to shoot a lot of destructive coons and fox. Coons are the worst once they find easy pickings.