30-30 FL Sizer question

[12DMAX]

I have been gathering the goodies to start casting and handloading for my 52' 336RC and have a question. I was given two sets of dies, Lyman All-American and Herters, the lyman FL die's expanding button mic's @ .3075 and the herter mic's @ .3065 my M die is the 30R and mics @ .3065. I bought 100 31141GC @ .310 from matt's bullets to try before buying a mould. Which FL die would you use?

Tom

[jimkim]

There probably isn't that much of a difference. I'd size a couple of cases without the expander and mike them. Use the die that best sizes the cases.

One thing you might try later is using an undersized decapping pin in the sizer and using the M die to expand the necks. 30-30 necks have pretty thin walls. I don't like to work the brass any more than needed.

[12DMAX]

Thanks Jim for the response. I was curious as to how the M die would center itself being .3065 into a neck sized at .3075. Probably splitting hairs so I will just give it a try and see. One thing I did noticed is the herter dies are more gentle ( dont size as much ) than the lyman. With the herters I get .401 at the shoulder and the lymans .398. Will run some test's with the .310 boolit stuffed in the .3075 neck, then some of the same into the M die .3065 neck.

[jimkim]

The M die expander should have more than one step. The second step should be 0.311". Here's an article that might help. I'd bookmark that site and use it for reference.
http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

[geargnasher]

You have the typical factory die dimensions, which are lousy for cast boolits. The Lyman M-dies in .30 are for jacketed bullets in the .308" range, and are sized to prepare the brass for such. The 31 M die is dimensioned for .310 or so bullets, and works fine for .310/311 boolits provided you don't push the second step into the case mouth more than just enough to sort of flare the neck.

If you're going to have to buy a new expander, which it looks like you will, you would be better served by the RCBS cast bullet expander die, which is a "universal" body with a 1/4" all-thread rod and locknut going through the top, and selectable, individually available expander/bellmouth spuds. You can get them in the sizes you need. If you have .310" cast boolits, use the .309" expander.

As for dies, the best thing I can recommend is honing out the neck portion of one of your FL dies so it doesn't oversize the brass. Most FL .30 dies make the ID of the neck around .305" give or take, which forces you to expand them again a large amount. Best not to size them down so far to begin with. The Lee Collet neck sizing die and the various brands of neck bushing sizing dies can be used to minimally size the necks, but in leverguns you often need to bump the shoulder and case body down a tiny bit to ensure easy chambering, and the neck dies won't do this. Hence the need for a 'custom' die, which you can make just by honing the neck of the sizer to size just below what you will expand to. As a margin of error with varying neck-thickness of brass, I'd hone the sizing die until sized cases came out .308" or so on the inside with the expander ball removed from the die, then expand/uniform/bellmouth with the RCBS die.

Gear

[12DMAX]

You have the typical factory die dimensions, which are lousy for cast boolits. The Lyman M-dies in .30 are for jacketed bullets in the .308" range, and are sized to prepare the brass for such. The 31 M die is dimensioned for .310 or so bullets, and works fine for .310/311 boolits provided you don't push the second step into the case mouth more than just enough to sort of flare the neck.

If you're going to have to buy a new expander, which it looks like you will, you would be better served by the RCBS cast bullet expander die, which is a "universal" body with a 1/4" all-thread rod and locknut going through the top, and selectable, individually available expander/bellmouth spuds. You can get them in the sizes you need. If you have .310" cast boolits, use the .309" expander.

As for dies, the best thing I can recommend is honing out the neck portion of one of your FL dies so it doesn't oversize the brass. Most FL .30 dies make the ID of the neck around .305" give or take, which forces you to expand them again a large amount. Best not to size them down so far to begin with. The Lee Collet neck sizing die and the various brands of neck bushing sizing dies can be used to minimally size the necks, but in leverguns you often need to bump the shoulder and case body down a tiny bit to ensure easy chambering, and the neck dies won't do this. Hence the need for a 'custom' die, which you can make just by honing the neck of the sizer to size just below what you will expand to. As a margin of error with varying neck-thickness of brass, I'd hone the sizing die until sized cases came out .308" or so on the inside with the expander ball removed from the die, then expand/uniform/bellmouth with the RCBS die.

Gear

Gear, I understand what your telling me, thank you. Being that this is what i have right now is that much neck tension going to be a pressure issue? I did flare and seat a boolit, pulled it and there was no reduction in the boolit dia. nice .310. These will be the first cast down the barrel of this rifle so i'm not trying to throw a bunch of $$ at this yet till I see if it is going to like lead or not.

[geargnasher]

It will like lead just fine if you build your ammunition correctly. It looks like you won't have the undersized issue, don't worry about excess case tension, there's no such thing really due to the elastic limit of brass as long as it isn't crushing your boolits down when you seat them.

The downside will be reduced case life due to overworking the necks, and there may be some concentricity issues when cramming the boolits down in the tight neck, but they should shoot with at least reasonable accuracy. I'd use the Lyman sizer die for now, and you might get better results if you back it off from the shellholder and leave the shoulder and about 1/16" of the base of the neck unsized, assuming your brass was fired last in this particular gun. Leaving the case body and base of the neck essentially unsized will help the boolit get a good "pilot" in the bore, which should help accuracy. The regular rifling that your gun should have should be pretty close to 'normal' .30 caliber dimensions and take that .310" boolit just fine. The Microgroove guns tend to like .310" or as much as .312" boolits. As always, make a dummy round with no powder or primer and check cycling and chambering of partially-sized brass to make sure it will work.

Gear

[jimkim]

IDK if you want to go through the trouble, but just in case you would, I thought I'd post this link. Read post #2.
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=2460&forum_id=18&page=1

[12DMAX]

It will like lead just fine if you build your ammunition correctly. It looks like you won't have the undersized issue, don't worry about excess case tension, there's no such thing really due to the elastic limit of brass as long as it isn't crushing your boolits down when you seat them.

The downside will be reduced case life due to overworking the necks, and there may be some concentricity issues when cramming the boolits down in the tight neck, but they should shoot with at least reasonable accuracy. I'd use the Lyman sizer die for now, and you might get better results if you back it off from the shellholder and leave the shoulder and about 1/16" of the base of the neck unsized, assuming your brass was fired last in this particular gun. Leaving the case body and base of the neck essentially unsized will help the boolit get a good "pilot" in the bore, which should help accuracy. The regular rifling that your gun should have should be pretty close to 'normal' .30 caliber dimensions and take that .310" boolit just fine. The Microgroove guns tend to like .310" or as much as .312" boolits. As always, make a dummy round with no powder or primer and check cycling and chambering of partially-sized brass to make sure it will work.

Gear

I see your point about working the brass and accuracy. I acquired this rifle from a buddie who kinda neglected it and the barrel appears to have some pitting so I'm hoping at this point I can at least get a boolit out the muzzle without leading. If all is good I will go to work measuring for a mold and look into buying or altering my dies. Going to load some up this weekend and give it a go.

[geargnasher]

This .30-30 has a pitted bore, shoots lights-out with peppy loads and doesn't lead. It has a good crown, chamber, and sharp rifling, though. My MicroGroove336 shot a 7/16" group at 100 yards from a cold barrel a few weeks ago, and it has a very worn throat, bore, and some old rust pitting that required lapping.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24079&d=1280378396.

Gear

[12DMAX]

This .30-30 has a pitted bore, shoots lights-out with peppy loads and doesn't lead. It has a good crown, chamber, and sharp rifling, though. My MicroGroove336 shot a 7/16" group at 100 yards from a cold barrel a few weeks ago, and it has a very worn throat, bore, and some old rust pitting that required lapping.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24079&d=1280378396.

Gear

Well sir that is some positive reassurance! I will lite some off tomorrow and we'll see. It does shoot J's very well.

[gunseller]

How old are your Herter dies? The orginal bore dia. of the 30-30 used a .307 bullet not a .308.
Steve

[12DMAX]

How old are your Herter dies? The orginal bore dia. of the 30-30 used a .307 bullet not a .308.
Steve

I'm not really sure, price tag says $8.30.

[12DMAX]

So far so good. Shot 15 today with zero leading although It was a light load of 22gr 3031. Will start bumping the charge up and test some more.

[geargnasher]

How'd it group?

Gear

[12DMAX]

How'd it group?

Gear

Not bad, fist size group @ 50yds.