Interesting oddity with LEE 38sw expander plug in 9mm...

[mistermog]

So, after realizing my 9mm boolits were being squeezed by the cases because of LEEs tiny expanding plug for the powder die, I got the 38SW die to help me out.

After seating the boolit in the seating die to exactly where I want it, I run it up the factory crimp die with a decent taper crimp on it.

I set the bullet on the table and notice theres a ring around it above the case mouth. Odd. I can push the bullet in by hand to that mark. Its where the case was crimped but the bullet is slowly pushing itself up a tad. I can push it back down and it just works itself back up.

I chamber it in my M&P 3 times and it still pops out to the same spot. when it chambers it isnt cutting the lead any deeper, its just staying in that range. Its like its sliding around the tapered area.

Anyone else ever notice this? Now I have some bullets that are the size I want it, and some that have nudged themselves out .025" farther.

Not all of them are doing this either, I loaded up 150 rounds and about half of them are, all different headstamps on the brass. Nothing consistent.

Any ideas?

[Wayne Smith]

Typically that is caused by a compressed power load. Your taper crimp is not adequate.

[mistermog]

I put a charge of powder in the case and used the depth part of the caliper to check, then checked the seating depth of the bullet, and it doesnt LOOK like it should be compressing?

It looks like I have about .1" of space available. The shakey shakey test doesnt do anything, theres no gap to hear much. Any way to tell definitively if that is the cause?

When I seat the bullet before running it through the crimp, its exactly where I want it and does not start pushing out.

[41mag]

Try setting one in a dummy round or three. If it does it then you got me, if not, well I would be inclined to go along with the powder pushing it back up.

The only other thing I can even remotely think of would be the outside chance of the boolit sticking in the seating plug just enough to loosen the crimp. Thing is you used the FCD so that should alleviate that.

Just throwing out my WAG

[KYCaster]

Have you checked to see if the FC die is reducing the bullet diameter?

Over size case, under size bullet, bullet elongated when squeezed, no space left, compressed powder..........??????

Jerry

[MtGun44]

*** FC die is resizing your boolit, case springs back a touch not the boolit.

Buy a REAL taper crimp die and put the FC die in the dumpster.

Bill

[mistermog]

Yes at the taper crimp it is crimping into the boolit, and along the whole length no, it is not that I can see.

I haven't tried loading any dummies yet, That isn't a bad idea. I'll go give that a shot.

It is hard though because only about half of them are doing it.

[mistermog]

Just made 5 dummies, nope. No moving around at all. Takes between 3-5 whacks with the puller to get them out too.

That may have been it then, probably shouldnt shoot those I guess either.

[runfiverun]

you could just be compressing air in the case.

[geargnasher]

First off, be very cautious with all this, because compressing some powder charges in 9mm can get you into a lot of trouble.

Second, it's tough to tell exactly what you're talking about in the first post because you say "boolit" and "bullet" and some of the time I think you really meant "cartridge", but I think I follow you. The boolits are creeping back out of the cases about .025" after seating and crimping.

You say you used the "factory crimp die", I'm assuming the one with the carbide sleeve that post-sizes the cartridge as well as crimps. I hold the same opinion of that die as Bill in post #6 does, it's caused me nothing but problems with lead boolits in 9mm, .40S&W, and .45 ACP. You really don't need much of a crimp with any of those, just enough to straighten out the bellmouth and get the cartridges to chamber reliably. The carbide sizing sleeve can defeat the whole purpose of your 38 S&W expander by sizing case and boolit together, leaving the boolit squeezed undersized and no case tension, which is a very dangerous condition. The Lee seating die has a crimp shoulder in it, you can adjust it to seat and remove the bellmouth at once, or get a dedicated taper-crimp die to do the same job in a separate step if you prefer.

Next, check your powder charge and seating depth of the boolit base to make CERTAIN you aren't compressing the powder. Trapped air can cause the same problem though, did your dummies have primers in them or empty pockets where they could vent as the boolits were seated?

You can also use your chamber as a case gauge to establish cartridge overall length for YOUR individual gun, seat the boolits where the case head is just below flush from the barrel hood and make sure they pass the "plunk test", which means that they'll fall in the chamber freely and fully. Then make sure they'll cycle through the gun from the magazine manually.

Gear

[mistermog]

Sorry gear, yes, boolit is the projectile and bullet should have been cartridge. :)

I am leaning toward air actually yes, when I push them down, there is NO physical feeling to it, it does feel very hydraulic now that I pay attention. I do think the dummies didn't have primers but I don't remember. Out of all 150 rounds I made up, 18 had the popping problem. I've never seen this before.

I havent had any problem with the FCD as long as I don't crank it down too tight. I did have to give it a good full extra turn since I'm using this other expanding plug but I pulled a couple and checked and I am not swaging the boolit down like I was before with the original one.

[MasS&W]

Maybe your reloading room is colder than the rest of your house, and the air inside is expanding. Sounds ridiculous, yes. Make some dummies with primers and see what happens.

[mistermog]

How common is this air thing? I've never seen nor heard of this in any manual or on the interwebs anywhere?

[mdi]

Toss the FCD. FCD + lead bullets = problems...

I know there will be several posts about using an FCD and not having any trouble, but my personal experience with them is negative. In revolvers shooting lead, an FCD swaged down bullets to make them lead the bore where previously they did not. As for a semi-auto, learn to adjust dies and there will be no need for "post seating sizing die". Remember all those millions of rounds reloaded successfully prior to Lee's FCD...

As noted above, I'd suggest making a few dummies both with and without using the FCD, but I have a suspicion your expander may be a tad too big.

[MikeS]

I too think the problem is the FCD. But to make you see the problem, make up some cartridges as you have been, then make up some where you don't use the FCD. If even the ones you make without using the FCD have the problem, then it's not the FCD. But if the ones made without the FCD don't have the problem, then stop fighting for the FCD, and just put it away. I don't say throw it out, as you never know when you might need it, say when you're loading jacketed bullets.

[gefiltephish]

I'm also of the anti-fcd crowd (for handgun cartridges). There are sooo many threads on this topic it's rediculous. Since the op only gave general information about his cartridges, he's only going to get general information in return. That said:


Make sure your sizing die is sizing the case small enough.
Make sure your expander is not over expanding. I use Lyman M dies with custom plugs for every cartridge, but that's just me.
For your 9mm, use a simple taper crimp die with just enough crimp to flatten the bell/flare out of the mouth.


You can drive the carbide ring out of the base of the fcd and have a perfectly fine crimp die. Or leave it intact for jacketed use and get a plain taper crimp die for use with cast. Lee makes a very inexpensive taper crimp die without the carbide and it works just great.

After having read so many threads on this die, I just can't help but believe that so many people just don't, or refuse to, understand just exactly what the carbide fcd does, even after it's been explained. First thing to understand is that the fcd performs 2 entirely separate operations that having nothing to do with one another. A) Crimps (taper or roll depending). B) Post sizes the fully assembled cartridge. It's the post sizing that is the controversial aspect of the carbide fcd. It is completely unnecessary and at least potentially detrimental for those of us loading oversize cast bullets (anything over the standard jacketed .355 for 9mm). You can screw the die thimble up and down till the cows come home and it will have zero effect on the post sizing operation, the adjuster is solely for the crimp.

I clearly subscribe to the school of thought that if you find a "need" for the fcd's post sizing operation, you seriously need to reexamine your entire process to find out what you or your dies are doing wrong in order to "need" correction, post assembly.

As far as crimping goes, any more than enough is too much. If you find yourself cranking down on the crimp to "solve" a problem, then you need to define and solve the problem instead of trying to mask over it with over crimping.

In my opinion, the post sizing operation of the fcd does nothing more than enable sloppy procedures and poor QC inspection on the part of the reloader. Not saying I'm the image of perfection either. :lol:

Lastly, I have also witnessed air compression pushing the bullet back out a bit. As I recall, it was with cases that were pretty well full of powder, but not necessarily a compressed charge. I believe what happens with air is that as it is compressed to half it's starting volume, the pressure does not double but quaduples. So when the space between the bullet and powder is minimal, the psi can get high enough to cause the issue the op is experiencing. One possilbe solution would be to use a different powder that would not fill the case so much.

[mistermog]

While I am well aware of the differing opinions on the FCD I was not looking to start an FCD fight. I just wanted to find out what was going on. The case is very well full of powder, but not being compressed. Quickload is telling me I've used about 84% of capacity which corresponds to my kinda best-i-can-do measurements.

As far as the FCD, yes I know it can swage lead and I am thinking about just using the seating die to do the crimp (I think the lee sets can still do that right?) but haven't decided that just quite yet. I want to shoot these off with the new expander plug I used and see if it leads first. One thing at a time.

[gefiltephish]

Yes the Lee seating die crimps as well. Please keep in mind that when some of us post, it's not just for the benefit of the op, but also for those who may be just getting started in reloading.

[mistermog]

I was under the impression the factory crimp die resizes the case to max factory sizing, which for a 9mm is well within size for a 357" bullet. My original issue is that the expanding plug was too small for lead, which is what is mentioned up in that sticky about it.

I'm thinking though, maybe the brass did spring back a bit after the taper crimp and it is being pushed by the compressed air back to the point of tapering.

[mistermog]

As an interesting side note to the whole post though, after sitting all night the boolits are not all springy in the case anymore. Every single one is solidly in place, just under the original crimp spot.

Guess air did leak out slowly over night?

[gefiltephish]

As an interesting side note to the whole post though, after sitting all night the boolits are not all springy in the case anymore. Every single one is solidly in place, just under the original crimp spot.

Guess air did leak out slowly over night?

Certainly possible.

Keep in mind a previous post about the temperature. Compressed air is greatly affected by temperature changes, especially small volumes. This is one of the major reasons why compressed air is seldom, if ever, used anymore as a tuning aid for competition motorcycle suspensions. Lets suppose the air did NOT leak out but the temperature lowered over night, the psi would reduce. When the temp rises again, so will the psi. This is why the poster offered the possibility that if you reload in a cool room, and then move the ammo to a warmer area, bullets may then react to the increase in psi. Probably not very likely but possible with your small air volume and if neck tension is on the light side.

[Longwood]

Certainly possible.

Keep in mind a previous post about the temperature. Compressed air is greatly affected by temperature changes, especially small volumes. This is one of the major reasons why compressed air is seldom, if ever, used anymore as a tuning aid for competition motorcycle suspensions. Lets suppose the air did NOT leak out but the temperature lowered over night, the psi would reduce. When the temp rises again, so will the psi. This is why the poster offered the possibility that if you reload in a cool room, and then move the ammo to a warmer area, bullets may then react to the increase in psi. Probably not very likely but possible with your small air volume and if neck tension is on the light side.

Other gasses can be even more effected by temperature, weight wise, than others.
It is pretty irrelevant to this thread, but could be useful info for someone someday.
I saw a solar panel a few years ago that does a flip flop with the sun simply because of a gas in two black 3" X 3" square tubes, that were exposed to sunlight at different times of the day. It worked by sunlight and gravity.

[geargnasher]

DO NOT rely on crimp to hold the boolit. Case tension alone should be sufficient, crimp is only an afterthought. I think your expander is making the brass too large, too much of a good thing. I have good luck in that caliber with an expander plug that is one thousandth smaller than the size of the boolit I'm using.

The reason you don't hear much about compressed air pushing boolits or primers back out is that properly fitted brass holds both with sufficient tension to resist it until the pressure seeps out. You're either compressing the powder itself or the expander is expanding the brass too much and you're trying to make up for that with a crimp, which won't work.

The danger of the boolit being too loose in the brass is telescoping in the magazine under recoil forces and the resulting reduced case capacity and possible powder compression can make an otherwise safe load spike to dangerous pressure levels quite easily.

Gear

[mistermog]

From whate was said in the sticky, the expander plug is perfect for larger lead boolits. So yes, the brass is expanded a bit more than before because before it was swaging down the bases of all my bullets to .355 and I need them to be .357.

Basically with these expander plugs it seems like one is slightly too small and one is slightly too big. woohoo...

[MtGun44]

It is not clear to me that the expander is too big. I might be on the wrong track, but is
the boolit loose in the case without powder and before you run it into the FC die? If it is
not able to withstand a firm push on the case with the boolit nose on a hard surface, then
you are over expanding the case.

This is much like the symptoms that we have had from a FC die sizing down the boolit inside
the case and taking a good fit between the boolit and the case and making the boolit loose.

As gear said - the primary thing locating the boolit in the case should be neck tension, not the
crimp, although I think many folks recommend too little TC on semiauto rounds, it should not
be the primary boolit retention factor.

Bill

[Jailer]

The expander plug should be working fine for your .357 diameter boolits.

I think this is a combination of several factors contributing to the problem. First and formost is the FCD. If I'm betting right, your FCD is reducing the diameter of the boolit slightly and the brass is springing back slightly. Combine this with a perfect airt tight seal from the lube and a primed case and it's pushing the boolit out a bit.

I've had this happen with my 45-70 from running the expander too far down in the brass and not leaving enough neck tension to securely hold the boolit in place. Add in a slight amount of hydrolic compression of the lube, especially in a tapered (interior) 9mm case and it pushes the booit in the only direction it can go.

[mistermog]

No it is not loose, I seated it (which got rid of the flare too) and tried to push it in by hand... a not too gentle squeeze with my hand might have shortened the OAL by .001, but that could be caliper fluctuation too.

After running it through the FCD and pulling the bullet, it didn't resize the .3565ish bullet any.

[mistermog]

Hey Jailer, I was hoping you would see this. I didn't do any adjusting to the expanding die body itself when I popped the plug in. I just dropped it in in place of the factory 9mm plug.

If the FCD is reducing the bullet some it is within .001 and I can't tell.

[mistermog]

Just came across something that has some merit for you anti FCD guys. (I will probably try this too to be honest).

Just unscrew the die a bit so it doesnt touch the shell holder. That way when you adjust the crimp ring youre still giving it the taper crimp, but have adjusted it so the sizer sleeve doesnt size the case.

Sounds good to me, being a tapered sleeve is bigger at the bottom than the top it sounds like it should work.

[Jailer]

That's not going to work. The post sizing ring is at the mouth of the die where the case enters. Adjusting up will only give you less crimp, the rest of the round will still pass through the post sizing carbide ring.

I think a taper crimp die is what you need.

[gefiltephish]

The carbide ring is at the very bottom of the die. As long as any part of the case passes through it, which it must in order for the die to crimp it, it can potentially resize the base of the bullet.

Is there any chance you can borrow a non fcd taper crimp die from someone nearby? If so, make up a few for comparison.

<edit> Jailer beat me to it! </edit>

[mistermog]

I know the tapered case for 9mm is a different sleeve than 45acp and 357/38 etc.

Ive used all 3 with 0 isses for the latter two, why is 9mm so stinkin hard to load for? :)

I might be able to borrow a die from a buddy, but i might just bang out the ring or call and see if it can eb removed without breaking it

[JIMinPHX]

DO NOT rely on crimp to hold the boolit. Case tension alone should be sufficient, crimp is only an afterthought. I think your expander is making the brass too large, too much of a good thing.

I'll second this motion.

I can believe that your lube could form an airtight fit around a boolit that is too loose in the case. I've never seen this problem myself, but it makes sense logically.

Just to be on the safe side, I would pull down a few randomly chosen cartridges & double check the powder charge weights to be certain that you don't have a problem there.

[mistermog]

Yep, I did that last night. Charge is good.

[blackthorn]

In the OP mistermog said (inn part) Quote “Not all of them are doing this either, I loaded up 150 rounds and about half of them are, all different headstamps on the brass. Nothing consistent.”

Since the OP said that only some rounds are problematic, my thoughts are that possibly some of the brass has thinner walls than others, resulting in reduced tension on some of the loaded rounds. Just one more thing to consider and check.

[mistermog]

Yes, random brass... however, in looking at the ones that did it there are some of that headstamp that weren't doing it as well.

[prs]

DON'T toss the Carbide FCD in the dumpster. Take the crimp sleeve out of it and use the die for case prep AKA bulg buster style. Its a tiny bit larger than a standard size die and that can come in handy with lead boolits that are a tad larger than some others.

prs

[mistermog]

well, i just tried a slightly bigger bullet sizing die i had... the .357 is sizing to .356 and those plunk in and out with maybe a SLIGHT tap. The .358 sizes to .3575 and those dont, one even pulled itself out of the case and got stuck on the rifling.

So, all o these have run through the FCD and have not swaged even the fatties of the bunch. Maybe I got lucky and my sleeve is on the looser side. :)

[429421Cowboy]

Remember, if you do make up a dummy round with a primer in it, make sure it is a spent primer! There is enough power in a primer alone to stick a boolit into the barrel pretty far, till the next round chambers and removes the shooters finger, magazine, and various small parts at high speed. Be careful there!
Also from what i have been told by those that load 9mm is that loads safe in one case can be over pressure in others due to the difference of capacity in the already limited powder space, so mixed bass might not be the best idea here!

[geargnasher]

From whate was said in the sticky, the expander plug is perfect for larger lead boolits. So yes, the brass is expanded a bit more than before because before it was swaging down the bases of all my bullets to .355 and I need them to be .357.

Basically with these expander plugs it seems like one is slightly too small and one is slightly too big. woohoo...

Are you using a .38 Smith and Wesson expander, or a .38 Special?

Gear

[mistermog]

38sw. the drop in... :)

[geargnasher]

38sw. the drop in... :)

What, exactly, are the measurements of a) the expander spud, b) the boolits you're using, c) the inside diameter of a resized and expanded/belled case 3/16" below the case mouth, and d) the difference between the outside diameter of the resized and expanded case 3/16" from the case mouth and the same measurement after seating a boolit?

Gear

[mistermog]

ok... to the best of my ability... here we go.

Lee 120gr TC 9mm sized eh... to .356, OAL 1.07ish, give or take. Boolit length is: .564
boolit pulled after case made measured: .356 (or might be .3555, my calipers arent the greatest)

case after sizing die @ mouth: internal .347, external .373
belling die: .3565(ish), .386
seating die: --- .381
FCD die: .379

about halfway into bullet seating area:
after bell: .354, .378 <--- that was hard to measure the interior there... not sure thats accurate.
after seating and crimping: --- .378

expanding spud halfway up the nub: .3555 - .356

[geargnasher]

You don't follow. Not the mouth. Measure the case 3/16" inside from the mouth with your calipers. I'm trying to get you to take all the measurements somewhere in the middle part of the area where the boolit seats to see how much of an interference fit the boolit has when you seat it in the brass.

Expand and bell a case with your .38 S&W expander and measure the ID of the case.

Measure the OD in the same place. Seat a boolit and measure the OD again, note the difference.

Remove the expander spud from the expander die and measure its diameter about halfway back from the tip that goes inside the case.

Gear

[mistermog]

updated

[geargnasher]

I didn't say crimp, that affects the measurement I'm trying to get you to make. Right now there is zero difference between the OD of the expanded brass and the brass with the boolit seated and crimped. See the problem?

Gear

[mistermog]

I think I measured too far down in the case, I'll do it again tomorrow.

[Four-Sixty]

Wow! I had the same exact problem as the OP.

I called Lee factory service and spoke to a Paul I believe.

When I mentioned that I had been reading about this problem on Castboolits, he let out a long sigh.

He stated that 9MM has an awful lot of taper. So, when the OP and I are using the .38 expander plug we are expanding the case too much! I think of it this way, if you have a lot of taper, you have a smaller area with which to apply the tension of the brass case to the boolit.

So, getting back to the problem, I to used mixed brass and saw some of my boolits expanding out of the case moments after I put them in the ammo box. This happened whether I used the 9MM expander plug or the .38 Special expander plug. I must note that with the 9MM expander plug I expanded the cases as much as possible. This was before I called Lee factory service.

What I found works for me was to expand the case mouth, with the original 9MM expander plug just barely enough to seat a boolit. Then, I crimped the the case lightly with the FCD die. A very few of the boolits would still come out a little bit after I seated them and before I used the FCD die. After I used the FCD die, however, I seated the bullets the second time and THEY ALL STAYED DOWN AT THE SAME OVERAL CARTRIDGE LENGTH!

Recap...

1) barely expand the case mouth with the 9MM expander plug to accept a boolit.
2) seat your boolit
3) lightly crimp with the FCD die (slowly increase tension for "problem" boolits.
4) reseat any boolits that may have moved out

After that, your boolits should stay and all hold at the same overall cartridge length.

[MtGun44]

If you are measuring with calipers this is all speculation. You are claiming .0005" capability
for a device that absolutely cannot measure that accurately, no matter what you are
seeing on the scale. Dial calipers only measure accurately to +/-.001 so if you measure .355
it could be anywhere between .354 or .356. This is a totally pointless exercise without
a micrometer capable of measuring at least .00025 (4X desired accy, assuming that is at
least .001), which doesn't normally exist, so you need a normal $30 mic that reads to .0001
before any of this means anything.

Spinning your wheels at this point.

go to:
www.use-enco.com and search on: 619-3106 with their search engine.


Bill

[geargnasher]

While I agree with the micrometer recommendation wholeheartedly, a skilled person with a decent set of steel calipers can suffice as far as comparing measurements, whether they're actually accurate number-wise or not. The biggest issue is the inside and outside anvils reading the same, which is hardly ever the case. My Swiss-made digital calipers are accurate on the OD, but measure exactly a thousandth smaller on the inside anvils. I always verify with a micrometer any inside measurement I make with them by setting the mic to the readout measurement and checking the fit across the mic's anvils with the calipers.

Gear

[mistermog]

Oh I agree these calipers aren't accurate either, but thats what showed up and I'm answering the questions asked. (until i got lazy and went to bed, I'll redo the inner and outter measurements and see what comes up after dinner)

It is however a good way to come CLOSE to knowing whats going on with the setup.

[mistermog]

Ok I decided to put up the taco salad and do some measuring best of my ability...

Expanded: .354 .376
Seated: ---- .378
Crimped: ---- .378

[geargnasher]

Sounds good, if your measurements are accurate, you have .002" boolit tension, which should be about right.

Gear

[NSP64]

Are you loading for more than one 9mm pistol?
If not ,I would back the sizing die out until I got a size that would fit my gun but not so small that it sized the boolits when loading.


Or



Load bigger boolits (.358-.359) use the 9mm belling spud then let the case smoosh the boolit down to .357

[Crash_Corrigan]

My Browning HP likes fatter boolits. I have no problem with the FMJ's from the factory. They are accurate and fast.

However the lead boolits I cast need to be at least .358 or 3585 in order to be accurate and not lead the bore.

I use the cheapest set of dies from Lee and bell the mouth to fit the base of my boolits. Then I run them thru the taper crimp die that came with the 4 die set.

The completed rounds are sexy, curvey and resemble a coke bottle.

They do work just fine, are accurate and fast and feed well. No complaints.

However loading for a pair of 9 MM's does have a long learning curve.

If you really want to go nuts try to cast and load for a 40 S&W.......long story.

[mistermog]

Nope, I am just loading for 1... seems like the bore is .356, but i cant seem to get a bullet sized to .357. The 2 sizers I have are .356-.3565 or .3575. The 3575 sticks in the chamber like crazy, even pulled a bullet out of the case so I am stuck with smaller ones. I haven't shot the .356s yet to see if they lead, but they are soft and a light charge so I might luck out.

I heard .380 are a huger pain. :)

[MtGun44]

Try the Lee 356-120-TC, it won't stick in the rifling like the round nosed ones can.

Bill

[mistermog]

Thats what I am using, I've already been through the fat lee round nose issues on both 9mm and 45.

[RobsTV]

Wow! I had the same exact problem as the OP.

I called Lee factory service and spoke to a Paul I believe.

When I mentioned that I had been reading about this problem on Castboolits, he let out a long sigh.

He stated that 9MM has an awful lot of taper. So, when the OP and I are using the .38 expander plug we are expanding the case too much! I think of it this way, if you have a lot of taper, you have a smaller area with which to apply the tension of the brass case to the boolit.
..

Not sure I go along with that.
Many, like myself, have been using 9mm brass (9x19) for Makarov 9x18 .365+ boolits, and have reused the 9x19 brass cut down 1mm dozens of times, problem free.

Since I had Lee 9mak dies, and Lee 38spl dies, I do things differently for 9x19.
Use the 38spl sizing die only half way, sorta like neck sizing. This provides the neck tension that 9x19 .358 lead likes (Lee 356-120-TC). Then swap torrent plates and use my 9mak dies to case full size, which doesn't touch the top half that was just neck sized, and instead, this slightly removes some of the ballooned case lower half from fired brass, just so it chambers fine. Next is expander die, which is the 9mak die, but using the Lee 38s&w tighter and deeper expander. Seat and crimp in one step to remove bell using 9mak seating die. Works perfect, and very difficult to remove boolit from test case, yet pulled boolits still retain original .358 size. Sometimes its good to be too cheap to buy another die set.