Lube causing smoke?

[Dead Dog Jack]

I'm shooting rounds that I lubed using the "Old NRA lube formula:"

1 part Beeswax
1 part Paraffin
1 part Vaselin

The rounds are loaded with HP-38. They are quite smokey. Anyone else using HP-38 getting smokey results? I'm wondering if it is the lube or just HP-38's characteristics?


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[beex215]

its the lube. all lubes ive used are smokey

[geargnasher]

Some load details would help.

Gear

[Ben]

Lube that has petroleum based components in them are going to smoke.

Most people that complain about smoke with cast bullets are referring to the lube a lot more so than their propellant.

Ben

[Sasquatch-1]

I use some old stick lube I bought eons ago. Don't even remember where I got it from. When I shoot of the rounds I use it with, you would sware I was using Blackpowder in my Blackhawks.

[44man]

You will get powder smoke but most smoke from a lube means it is burning behind the boolit. Paraffin has a low flash point as does Vasoline. Alox has a low flash point.
Low flash point oils will leave ash in the bore.
Beeswax, lanolin and seed based oils like peanut oil and Safflower oil will raise the flash point. So does Castor oil. Modified mineral oil also does too and is why Felix works so great.
I need to talk to Felix here. Would replacing the mineral oil with Safflower work better? Would I need Castor oil?
Stearate increases the melting point and lets all components blend without separating.
Those old formulas will separate into layers as they cool.

[felix]

Jim, the smoke attributes I did not compensate for in my lube endeavors. I need enlightenment here also. Remember that an "alloy" of chemicals is no different than a lead alloy. This means adding/changing something somehow causes a change in the final product, sometimes very unpredictably. Testing must therefore be thorough. ... felix

Hopefully, Ian and company are considering the smoke in their formulations. However, ash accumulation is more important, or whatever you want to call the "ash". No ash, no smoke is the ideal, of course. ... felix

[44man]

I get no lube smoke with your lube, just powder smell. It just works.
I just wonder if Safflower by itself would work.
I will be trying it and maybe plain castor too.
Then there is Lube Gard, a seed based oil. I also have Jojoba and Neatsfoot but I don't think it will take as much heat. Peanut oil takes a lot of heat.
ATF should be seed based to replace whale oil. I even have an old bottle of sperm whale oil but will not use it, it is too fine a lubricant.
This winter will be a lube making pile of fun.

[btroj]

I rarely notice any smoke when shooting outdoors. Indoor ranges are totally different story. Loads tha smoke tons indoors don't appear to at all outdoors.

I would consider "smokiness" of a lube to be of very low importance for most of my shooting. I am far more concerned with accuracy, ability to stop leading, and ability to shoot long strings without issues. Ash buildup is a problem with long run accuracy without cleaning so it is important.

I wonder with some lubes if it is really smoke but rather a puff of vaporized lube? Maybe a cloud of small droplets of lube exiting the muzzle?

[44man]

I rarely notice any smoke when shooting outdoors. Indoor ranges are totally different story. Loads tha smoke tons indoors don't appear to at all outdoors.

I would consider "smokiness" of a lube to be of very low importance for most of my shooting. I am far more concerned with accuracy, ability to stop leading, and ability to shoot long strings without issues. Ash buildup is a problem with long run accuracy without cleaning so it is important.

I wonder with some lubes if it is really smoke but rather a puff of vaporized lube? Maybe a cloud of small droplets of lube exiting the muzzle?
Hard to tell but using some lubes with BP has shown dry hard deposits in the bore so a patch had to be soaked to push through.
Other lubes would have a dry patch go right through.
I can push a dry patch through my revolvers but Alox needs solvent.
It has to be ash, not just powder carbon.
I still think ash in the bore promotes leading while lube will not let lead stick.
BP will teach you how much lubes make a difference. With some you get a grease ring at the muzzle while others are so dry you can stick a rod and need a hammer. I say the poor lube ignited and burned.

[geargnasher]

I can't speak for everyone, but low smoke properties isn't something I'd given much thought when formulating a lube, it just doesn't seem all that important to me. Smell was something else that didn't matter too much compared to a host of other attributes.

Interestingly, the lubes that seem to work well in general by the criteria established smoke very little, including some of the best formulas any of us have developed on this board. Eutectic's Esterbee hardly smokes at all.

FWFL is essentially a sodium grease and beeswax lube with an extreme-pressure modifier. The grease part is the most critical part, and changing anything about it changes the attributes of the lube. Castor oil by itself is a bit too viscous, it needs to be "cut" with a thinner oil, hence the mineral oil, or liquid paraffin. I've done a great deal of testing with different oil viscosities, and based on my results in rifles the base oils in the 500 SUS/100F range work very well. That's thicker than transmission fluid, thinner than 30-wt engine oil. The problem with most seed oils is they're too viscous on their own, varnish badly, or have too low of a viscosity index to be useful. I can't think of a single natural oil that would serve the purpose of the light mineral oil in the formula effectively. I can think of a few that are BETTER, though: Try substituting synthethic polyolester two-cycle oil (Motul or Redline) for the mineral oil. The aliphatic solvent in the two-stroke oil will boil off when you polymerize the castor, so add 25% extra of the two-stroke oil. I've checked both by reduction and that's about what the solvent content turned out to be. The lube needs a metal soap in it to help control oil flow when the wax melts during the firing cycle. Speed Green always got a little screwy for me in the heat, even with lanolin added, but Felix's lube is a solid performer in the hottest weather and with overheated barrels. That, I believe, is the result of the castor oil, which can make it through a two-cycle engine without even scorching. The ester oils burn up, but burn so cleanly and easily that there's virtually no smoke.

Gear

[44man]

Gear, that is good. I know there is a reason Felix uses mineral oil and castor. Just wondering of a way to keep from the half hour of cooking.
Maybe best to just stay with what works and nothing works as well.
Castor is the oil used in model airplane engines. It leaves nothing behind in the engines but sure makes a mess all over the plane. :mrgreen:
Most two stroke oils make bad carbon, I had to go to Opti2 for my engines. Stihl oil blocked up my engines, exhaust, etc.
The old 2 stroke oils had wax particles floating to block up carbs and filters. But not all synthetics are the same. Too many are made to burn with the gas.

[runfiverun]

you are almost not gonna get away from cooking a good lube at some point.
even if it's just to 225-f for 10 mnutes to get everything homogenized.
the synthetic version of felix lube shows some good promise especially with the syn-ester oils.
the neatsfoot/sulpher ester type oils are very good lubricants also.
but you have to be very careful with the amounts you use, as they will go too far to the slippery [oil release] in the heat.

[44man]

That is true, I do not want oil release or separation.

[John Boy]

Jack, I use a 40:40:20 mutton tallow-paraffin-beeswax for both BP and smokeless reloads. It does not smoke. Have been using it for over 2 years
This is the recipe that was in the 1943 American Rifleman

[felix]

Very, very intersting per JohnBoy! This is prolly where it all comes from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallow

... felix

[fredj338]

It's the lube & the powder. I find HP38/W231 smokes more than WST in my 45acp loads. Same lube, same vel.

[44man]

Jack, I use a 40:40:20 mutton tallow-paraffin-beeswax for both BP and smokeless reloads. It does not smoke. Have been using it for over 2 years
This is the recipe that was in the 1943 American Rifleman
Confusing a little. Shooting BP, how would you know if lube smokes? :mrgreen:

[rexherring]

Try some TAC 1 from randyrat. Works great and less smoke than any I've tried.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=131679

[popper]

44man - microwave that caster oil 15 min @ 170F to increase it's viscosity without increasing oxidation rate value. I personally think the rapeseed is better than castor. You really have to watch inhaling the caster oil, but it is a great model engine lube. Think we used methanol blend for fuel. Partially hydrogenated oils have VI ~100, V ~50-75. AC oil is about 150 VI. Vacuum pump oil VI is ~ 50.

[randyrat]

I'm shooting rounds that I lubed using the "Old NRA lube formula:"

1 part Beeswax
1 part Paraffin
1 part Vaselin

The rounds are loaded with HP-38. They are quite smokey. Anyone else using HP-38 getting smokey results? I'm wondering if it is the lube or just HP-38's characteristics?


. If you insist on using that recipe or ingredients you may want to consider using just Vaseline and beeswax and stay away from the paraffin.. All you have to do is mix 40% Vaseline to 60% beeswax and then adjust the firmness to you liking with more or less beeswax.
Chances are your loading for a 38 special. Using Beeswax and Vaseline should cover most of your shooting right up to max with the 38 special.

[44man]

44man - microwave that caster oil 15 min @ 170F to increase it's viscosity without increasing oxidation rate value. I personally think the rapeseed is better than castor. You really have to watch inhaling the caster oil, but it is a great model engine lube. Think we used methanol blend for fuel. Partially hydrogenated oils have VI ~100, V ~50-75. AC oil is about 150 VI. Vacuum pump oil VI is ~ 50.
Never tried rapeseed.
I am stuck on Felix as it is but I do like to play around a little. I might buy some.
I will always think a low flash point oil or wax is not good.

[popper]

Never tried rapeseed higher smoke point than most other seed oils. The Microwave part is interesting, chemists don't appear to know why it increases viscosity without changing other characteristics - it evidently doesn't ester or poly the chains, just makes them longer. I think Gear has been microwaving his lubes, may be one reason his results are good.

[wallenba]

My indoor formula for revolvers is a gas checked boolit, lubed with Carnuba Red over Clays. That is what reduces the smoke for me. Also, lubing one groove instead of two helps, if it's not loaded too hot. Win 231 in the auto pistols seems to smoke less, don't know why.

[felix]

Enclosures cause more pressure faster, which then allows more powder to ignite in the same amount of time. ... felix

[geargnasher]

I don't use a microwave at all to make lube. Occasionally I'll reheat lube in one on a reduced-power setting, and I've been known to nuke Ivory soap just to puff it up enough to make it dry out faster.

Felix, a lot of people are probably thinking you posted that response in the wrong thread, but......some will get it.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

I have heard tell that lubes smoke a mite, some more than others. It have never been an issue with me and as far as I am concerned falls into the same basket as dirty vs. clean powders. Nothing in that basket registers on my Give-A-Poop meter.