My foray into .38spl black powder loads

[MasS&W]

I recently happened upon the motivation to pursue loading .38 specials with black powder, to try and capture the original performance of my long favorite "do anything" cartridge.

I loaded a .38 special case with 13 grains of Pyrodex RS powder (FFG equivalent, or so it says on the bottle), underneath a 190 grain Ranch Dog tumble lubed bullet.

This being my first black powder cartridge load (I have no other experience with black powder, save for model rocketry), I had no idea what to expect. I used my Smith model 13, and was very pleased with the results. The performance matched or exceeded my light "cat sneeze" IDPA loads, and judging from how it knocked my steel plate around, it was on par with standard non plus-p .38s.

Has anyone any experience in this? I am curious if a more compressed load, or the use of FFFG powder would make better results, or if it could yield a broken gun and a broken ego.

Thank you for your feedback, I'm "shooting in the dark" at this point, but having fun at any rate.

[tacklebury]

Black powder isn't weak. ;) I actually get pretty good kick from my .45 Colt and .45-70 BP loads also. If you make up a drop tube, you can often fit about 2-3 extra grains in also. ;)

[MasS&W]

I've... actually never heard of a drop tube.

[StrawHat]

Back when I shot PPC, I loaded up 12 black powder charges under the 148 DEWC boolit that my revolver liked so well. I made sure I was upwind from the rest of the line and when the targets turned, proceeded to compete. My score was the same as when I shot Bullseye in the cartridges, and with one exception, so were the rest of the shooters scores! Once they realized what I was doing, lots of laughs and then concentrate ont he sights and squeeze the trigger.

I have also loaded 158 grain RF over a full charge of BP and had good results.

I do not find a drop tube necessary for handgun cartridges, some do. For a rifle cartridge, it helps to get some more powder in and settle it down. For my handguns, just compressing the powder gets me where I want to be.

[Nobade]

Thanks to John Kort (on this forum and others) I have done some work with the 38 spl and black powder. The modern 38 cases won't hold enough powder, but 357 mag cases will and can duplicate original 38 spl. ballistics. The boolit to use is #358250 or even better one of the similar ones from Accurate molds. Powder is 21gr. Swiss FFFg, or KIK also FFFg. Lube is either SPG or a homemade version of it.

Using this combination has produced exceptionally fine accuracy in my Browning '92, around 1 1/2 - 2 inch groups at 100 yards and allows completing pistol caliber silhouette matches with no foul out problems and accuracy just as good at the end as when starting.

One caution - if you fired a revolver with Pyrodex, keep an eye on it. You think you've got it clean and come back a month later and find it has rust all over it. I learned that lesson years ago and ruined a nice SAA copy, so I caution folks to keep looking for rust. That's not a problem with real BP, which is all I will use anymore.

[MasS&W]

One caution - if you fired a revolver with Pyrodex, keep an eye on it. You think you've got it clean and come back a month later and find it has rust all over it. I learned that lesson years ago and ruined a nice SAA copy, so I caution folks to keep looking for rust. That's not a problem with real BP, which is all I will use anymore.

Thanks for the tip. I cleaned the hell out of my mdl13, with water (as some recommended) to remove the black powder residue, then with Hoppes as per usual. Its my standard carry gun, so I'll keep an eye on it.

[tacklebury]

In my .45 Colt loads, the drop tube gained me almost 5 grains and in .38 special that would be about 2-3 gr. That can be significant, but likely not. I don't have a fancy drop tube or anything, just a kitchen plastic funnel with an aluminum tube from a blowgun I don't use very much. ;) This is how I mounted it on my Reloading center with a couple of Peg Hooks, but I used to do it free hand with another funnel.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GCT2g41urAA/TzHleUwjShI/AAAAAAAAAzE/MXG9Ea9qQ84/s800/Reloading_Center_Workarea.jpg

[oldred]

I recently happened upon the motivation to pursue loading .38 specials with black powder, to try and capture the original performance of my long favorite "do anything" cartridge.

I loaded a .38 special case with 13 grains of Pyrodex RS powder (FFG equivalent, .


With Pyrodex you are not BP loading, not even close. Honesty I am not trying to be a "purist" here and even shoot smokeless quite often in my BP rifles but I just wonder about using something like Pyrodex to "Experience BP shooting". I certainly would not tell anyone not to, to each his own and have fun, but Pyrodex is not BP -it looks, smells and shoots different plus it has a different smoke and is more corrosive so how is that pursuing BP? Again I am honestly not trying to put you, or anyone else, down for using a sub just that IMHO you are cheating yourself out of a real fun experience that ONLY comes when using real BP. The subs are simply a third kind of shooting, neither Black nor smokeless, and have attributes that are quite different than either of the others, still fun to be sure but they still ain't Black Powder! :)

[MasS&W]

With Pyrodex you are not BP loading, not even close. Honesty I am not trying to be a "purist" here and even shoot smokeless quite often in my BP rifles but I just wonder about using something like Pyrodex to "Experience BP shooting". I certainly would not tell anyone not to, to each his own and have fun, but Pyrodex is not BP -it looks, smells and shoots different plus it has a different smoke and is more corrosive so how is that pursuing BP? Again I am honestly not trying to put you, or anyone else, down for using a sub just that IMHO you are cheating yourself out of a real fun experience that ONLY comes when using real BP. The subs are simply a third kind of shooting, neither Black nor smokeless, and have attributes that are quite different than either of the others, still fun to be sure but they still ain't Black Powder! :)

To be honest, I bought the stuff to make some backyard fireworks Fourth of July about 2 years ago, and I figured I'd give it a shot. What kind of stuff would be closer to the good stuff?

[MasS&W]

With Pyrodex you are not BP loading, not even close.

You sir, are completely correct! I had no idea Pyrodex was a black powder substitute! It looks, smells, and burns like it when used for fireworks, but it is indeed a synthetic, according to my research.

[StrawHat]

... What kind of stuff would be closer to the good stuff?...

GOEX comes to mind, fffG would be a good choice for 38 Special.

[1874Sharps]

MacS&W,

Some folks like me are incurable nostalgics when it comes to BP and do not use the BP subs. This was not always the case for me, though. You will indeed find that subs such as Pyrodex and 777 have their place and advantages for some applications, but they are more corrosive than the real McCoy -- good ol' BLACK POWDER. You can let a gun sit a day or two after shooting BP in the dryer climes without cleaning and you will not see rust. If you do this with 777 or Pyrodex you will see rust. Also, the 777 seems harder to thoroughly get out. As NOBADE rightly points out, if you shoot a non-smokeless BP sub it is a real good idea to come back a few days after cleaning and do it again to prevent this insidious rust.

[Maven]

MasS&W, Your experiment with BP in the .38Spl. prompted me to try something similar in my .357mag. Although I have real BP, I decided to use some Pyrodex P, which I want to get rid of, instead. I used a Lee Precision 1.3cc dipper, which holds somewhere between 15 and 16 grains of Pyro P + a Rem. 5 1/2 small pistol primer (all I have at the moment). The CB is a LBT 180gr. gas checked FP, sized to .359" to fit my Ruger NMBH, and lubed with Felix Lube. As the gun is stainless steel, I anticipate no problems with chlorate residue. Btw, I've used Pyrodex before in both stainless and blued cartridge guns and have experienced no problems with rusting.

[MasS&W]

Its been argued back and forth for a while whether or not .38 special was designed around black powder or not... (I tend to think it was), but nobody can argue that it works. I loaded up some far more compressed loads (1/8th inch compressed) that I hope to try tomorrow.

[thehouseproduct]

In my .45 Colt loads, the drop tube gained me almost 5 grains and in .38 special that would be about 2-3 gr. That can be significant, but likely not. I don't have a fancy drop tube or anything, just a kitchen plastic funnel with an aluminum tube from a blowgun I don't use very much. ;) This is how I mounted it on my Reloading center with a couple of Peg Hooks, but I used to do it free hand with another funnel.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GCT2g41urAA/TzHleUwjShI/AAAAAAAAAzE/MXG9Ea9qQ84/s800/Reloading_Center_Workarea.jpg
I like the radius going into the press. Would make for nice extra space for bullets and cases.

[tacklebury]

Thanks, took a little extra work with a jig saw, but I like not having stuff to snag on me. hehe

[Freightman]

Thanks for the idea of fun, think I will load some 44 mag with BP for my Ruger BH.
Like your set up thanks for the pictures, now I have to modify mine.

[w30wcf]

MasS&W,
Nice that you are enjoying the 38 Special B.P. round.....like stepping back in time.... :-)

According to cartridges of The World, it was introduced in 1902. From the beginning it was offered in both smokeless and b.p. loadings. The b.p. variation was factory offered up until the late 1930's, after which it was discontinued.

According to a ballistics table dated 1912, the original b.p. cartridge produced 960 f.p.s. in a 6" barrel!

I started my journey on replicating the 38 Special b.p. cartridge back in 2006. After a search, I found a Lyman 358250 mold which replicated the 2 groove b.p. factory bullet. I used 21 1/2 grs of Swiss 3F powder under that bullet lubed with SPG in 38 Special cases.

Velocity in a 7 1/2" barrel was 967 f.p.s. and in a 24" barrel, 1,255 f.p.s. Accuracy was very good.

A few years later I found this vintage UMC 38 Special B.P. box on one of the cartridge auction sites. It dates sometime between 1902 (introductory date of the 38 Special) and 1911 (Last year for the UMC logo). Back in those days it was normal to have the quantity of powder contained in the cartridges on the box.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/38SpecialBlackPOwderjpg-1.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/38Specialbpheadstamp.jpg

Some of the cartridges had firing pin indents in the primers but the mercuric primers had long since died. I eventually dissected all of the cartridges, annealed the cases, replaced the mercuric primers with Rem 1 1/2's.

I found that UMC used .15" of compression on the 3F powder charge and that the UMC SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket) cases held 1.0 grs. of powder more than current brass.

Nobade and I have been using 38 special b.p. replication loads to shoot NRA Cowboy Silhouette. I have not found a smokeless load that will beat the b.p. cartridge in accuracy at 100 meters......

Have fun!

[StrawHat]

w30wcf,

Thanks for the insight into the past. Not a common mold, wonder if anything modern is close.

[w30wcf]

StrawHat,
Thank you for the "thanks". I worked with Accurate Molds to produce a bullet like the 358250 but with a flat point for use also in a lever gun.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/38Specialbpbullets1.jpg

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-165B-D.png

w30wcf

[tacklebury]

Lee has one pretty close also:
https://fsreloading.com/lee-mold-d-c-358-150-1r-90328.html

Or 6 cav version
https://fsreloading.com/lee-6-cavity-358-150-1r-90326.html

[Maven]

MasS&W, Your experiment with BP in the .38Spl. prompted me to try something similar in my .357mag. Although I have real BP, I decided to use some Pyrodex P, which I want to get rid of, instead. I used a Lee Precision 1.3cc dipper, which holds somewhere between 15 and 16 grains of Pyro P + a Rem. 5 1/2 small pistol primer (all I have at the moment). The CB is a LBT 180gr. gas checked FP, sized to .359" to fit my Ruger NMBH, and lubed with Felix Lube. As the gun is stainless steel, I anticipate no problems with chlorate residue. Btw, I've used Pyrodex before in both stainless and blued cartridge guns and have experienced no problems with rusting.

All, I just realized I never posted the results of the above experiment. Although I didn't chronograph the 1.3cc charge of Pyro. P with the gas checked 185gr. LBT's, where they impacted the target (higher than my smokeless loads with that CB), tells me they were slower, maybe < 1,000 fps. Accuracy, however, was as good as that obtained with smokeless loads. Although the Ruger was filthy, clean-up with BP solvent (Winchester Sutler's Moose Milk), then a follow up with Hoppes' #9 + lube on the cylinder pin and front and rear surfaces made everything right. Btw, I used no card wads, but the Pyro. P was heavily compressed, and the CB's, lubed with Felix Lube, roll crimped. After the usual washing and drying of the cases, I put them in my tumbler with some ancient Midway USA polish to restore the shine. This exercise entire worked so well that I'm strongly tempted to repeat it.

[Oyeboten]

When I got back into re-Loading a few years ago, I began with .38 Special, and loading it in Black Powder.

All I had on hand was GOEX, 3f, and, Swiss of course would be a better choice, but, the .38 Special in Black Powder, for Revolver in my case, is splendid.

I sed 158 Grain Soft Lead Bullets of .358 diameter.

The Recoil is somehow more impressive and less sharp than with Smokelss, and, the Report is deeper and more impressive.


I use a thin Beeswax 'Wafer' between Powder and Bullet, and, this works splendidly to keep everything clean, and the Bore well Lubed.

End of the day clean up is a snap with plain Hot Soapy Water and a Nylon Bore Brush, dry with Hot Air from a Hair Drier.


Chronograph results showed these to be about on par with Standard 158 Grain RNL off the shelf .38 Special Cartridges in Smokeless.


If I could get as much BP into the Case as they did 114 years ago, or with the old Folded Head cases anyway, and use 'Swiss', the Chrogoraph would likely show the BP rounds to be a little perkier than off the shelf Standard .38 Special of to-day.


Original rating for .38 Special in 1898/1899, when it was a Black Powder Cartridge, if memory serve, was 950 FPS with a 158 Grain RNL Bullet, over ( I think, 21-1/2 Grains of 3F BP )...I assume, from a 6 inch or 6-1/2 inch Barrel.

[boatworks]

How did you make the beeswax wafers? Thanks,Charlie

[StrawHat]

How did you make the beeswax wafers? Thanks,Charlie

Not sure how Charlie did his but I made some by melting beeswax and then pouring it out between two sticks 1/16" thick. The sticks gave me a way of controlling the thickness. When the wax solidified, I was able to cut appropriate discs from the wax sheet. You can do the same with many of the lubes if you want a lube disc.

I have heard about lube/wax extruders but do not have experience with that tool.

[boatworks]

Thanks, I'll try that.
Charlie

[bigted]

for my cookies i just melt n pour lube into a glass pie plate with nuts...[like bolts n nuts]...of the correct thickness so i can fill to just cover them in three or four places in the plate ...then allow to set up . then with the proper cookie cutter i cut to the glass and a side slide frees them from the cake...then i punch them out with a boolit that is shoved up into my kake cutter case thru a enlarged hole thru the primer pocket with a rod to do the pushing with...kinda like a ground screwdriver to a blunt round point.

i have three plates of lube poured in 1/8th inch thick in 1...1/4 inch in another and 3/8ths in another. when i need a cookie i "cut" em out with different cartridge 'cutters' and punch em out with my ground screwdriver.

[boatworks]

Thanks, that makes sense.

[mazo kid]

You can melt bees wax in a shallow pan, then take a plastic bottle filled with cold water, and rotate the bottle horizontally in the bees wax. The wax will form a thin sheet around the bottle and you can peel it off and punch your wads. With a little practice you will be able to get a uniform thickness of wax.

[jrmartin1964]

According to cartridges of The World, it (the .38 Smith & Wesson Special cartridge) was introduced in 1902.

My apologies for resurrecting a thread from more than four years ago, but "Cartridges of the World" (as well as many other publications and periodicals of recent decades) is simply wrong on this. Winchester's catalog No.65 dated April, 1900, and a U.M.C. catalog dated May, 1900, both list .38 S.&W. Special cartridges, loaded with both smokeless and black powders. A Peters Cartridge Cartridge Co. price list, dated April 15, 1901, lists .38 S.& W. Special cartridges loaded with smokeless and semi-smokeless powders. Smith &Wesson's own catalog for 1900 lists their .38 Military (Model 1899) revolver as being chambered for the .38 S.&W. Special cartridge. Further information is found in "U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns" by Charles R. Suydam, (c)1977, on pages 172 and 173: "The .38 Smith & Wesson Special cartridge was first made by U.M.C. in early 1899; cartridges were sent to Smith & Wesson for trial in May of that year." And "The first smokeless loadings were made in September, 1899,..."


Jim

[Oyeboten]

My apologies for resurrecting a thread from more than four years ago, but "Cartridges of the World" (as well as many other publications and periodicals of recent decades) is simply wrong on this. Winchester's catalog No.65 dated April, 1900, and a U.M.C. catalog dated May, 1900, both list .38 S.&W. Special cartridges, loaded with both smokeless and black powders. A Peters Cartridge Cartridge Co. price list, dated April 15, 1901, lists .38 S.& W. Special cartridges loaded with smokeless and semi-smokeless powders. Smith &Wesson's own catalog for 1900 lists their .38 Military (Model 1899) revolver as being chambered for the .38 S.&W. Special cartridge. Further information is found in "U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns" by Charles R. Suydam, (c)1977, on pages 172 and 173: "The .38 Smith & Wesson Special cartridge was first made by U.M.C. in early 1899; cartridges were sent to Smith & Wesson for trial in May of that year." And "The first smokeless loadings were made in September, 1899,..."


Jim

Yup...

Designed in 1898, available in 1899...

Debut was with the m1899 S & W "M&P" Revolvers, which also chambered the slightly shorter .38 Long Colt Cartridge.

I got back to a little reLoading a couple months ago, and I found I could get 21.5 Grains of 3F Swiss into any of my ordinary modern .38 Special Cases, merely by compressing it a little more than usual...to end up with a standard 'OAL' with the 158 Grain RNL Bullet.

Have not been to the Range yet to test these rounds but, I will report in with a little Thread about it, once I do.

Test Gun will be an S & W m 1899 in .38 Special.

[johnson1942]

to day i loaded up about 25 38 special cases with this load. 12 grains by weight of blackhorn 209 powder. a cork rubber wad cut from cork rubber gasket material. the bullet is a .370 roundball reduced in diam to .358. that goes on top for the wad and the case is rolled crimped over the end of the ball. very very accurate and very easy and fun to shoot. may seem like a light load but would defend my self with it in a heartbeat. by the way when you use pyrodex in a revolver you had better clean it really good and not let it sit. that stuff will rust ruin anything in real short order.

[Tracy]

That's not black powder. But this is:


https://youtu.be/ALMUeEgZGK0

[yeahbub]

A very easy and handy way to make lube wad sheets is to use a cookie can which has a flat bottom (no embossing). The bead holding the bottom to the can is often almost 5/16" deep on the outside of those commemorative cookie cans you see at the local Dollar-Mart, but any similar flat-bottom can will do. Turn the empty can upside down on the stove, make sure it's level, put a few chunks of BP-compatible lube on the bottom and turn the heat on very low. Knowing the height of the lip on the bottom of the can, one can guesstimate the thickness and how much to add. Once you've melted a sufficient amount to look thick enough, turn off the heat and let it solidify. To get the sheet of lube to pop loose, put it in the fridge for twenty minutes or so. The sheet will shrink and pull loose from the can, though a small area in the center may still be attached. Moving it to the freezer generally gets it to pop loose the rest of the way. Once loose, put a paper towel over the can bottom and put the sheet on top of it and let it assume room temperature - now you're ready to use case mouths to cut lube wads. The paper towel will keep the cut wad from sticking to the can. This will work with any of the beeswax/tallow/shortening/oil type lube recipes and most of those intended for smokeless use. I use 541, aka Emmert's and all my lube-cookies are made this way.

A note on using lube wads for cleaning: For barrels that are seriously leaded after a match or a long plinking session (commercial "store brand" reloads required at some ranges), 5 or 6 reduced-load "target" rounds with a card wad, generous lube wad, and any ol' correctly sized boolit appropriate for that load has been successful at clearing the lead, leaving only a thin film of powder residue and lube. Reduced load due to diminished internal volume because of the card and lube wad. In .38 Spl, I use 3gr Universal, card wad, lube wad and a Lee 358-158-RF. Much more fun to shoot them "clean" than a long session of scrubbing, patching and brushing to get the lead out.