Need some advice on a 30-30 ackley improved

[yotatrd4x4]

Ok I have had a 30-30 since I was a kid, well I guess i am still a kid at the age of 29. Anyhow I for a long while have been wanting, no wait needing I think is the word a Ackley Improved 30-30. I read alot on other forums but I trust you fellars far more than any other site. My idea is to be able to squeeze a little more velocity out of the 336 with j-words but still be able to run a standard velocity boolit as well. Is it worth borrowing or renting a reamer and I would just order a set of Lee improved dies. I would like to ask the guys who have been there done that if they feel it was worth it or not. Also keep in mind I am not trying to make this long range rifle or increase velocity tremendously. I already have a 45/70, 338wm and a new 416 Ruger so I dot need the 30-30 to become a race horse just thought it would be somethig fun to do and be able to say yeah I have an ackley improved 30-30. Let's hear it I know you guys will have the answers I seek.

[felix]

Pro and con, as always! Pro is that the headspace can be better controlled on guns that CAN fire hot loads which rear locking lever guns should not attempt. Therefore, the pro becomes a con in your particular situation. The typical con involves the burn speed of the powder. Slower powders automatically become faster by a notch or two, but this mainly applies to the slope of the end shoulder. The more square the cartridge, the more the SEE conditions are set up, and most especially in a large case which is too large for boolits. ... felix

[geargnasher]

Sounds like it's time to buy another levergun in .35 Remingon.

Gear

[bob208]

i agree time to get a .35 remington. i have seen and shot some of the .30-30 improved. in a leaver gun it is not worth it. now a savage bolt you could work up a nice load. but then why not get a .308.

[Bret4207]

I ain't got much except to note that there have been articles on the 30-30 Ackley in Handloader, Rifle, various other pubs over the years. You gain a little, you lose a little. If you want something faster, doesn't Marlin still make their Super Duper 30 cal lever rig? I forget the name, Marlin Express maybe? Might be worth a look.

[yotatrd4x4]

Yeah I may just keep this rifle factory. I prob can get a used 35. I am trying to hold out until Marlington makes a better gun the first batch of Remington made Marlins are dreadful compared to the old ones.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I'm a bit of a P.O. Ackley fan, have his book, used to use it as my primary reloading manual. However, the need for wildcats has dried up with a few exceptions. When P.O. was doing is "improved" versions of everything, it was in the 50s and 60s and the scales tipped differently between modifying a gun and buying another. Nowdays guns are cheap and modifying is high.

My vote is keep shooting your 336 as is and shop for another gun.

[725]

Just to add my two cents, and that's all it's worth, because I don't have an AI. The case life of the frequently frail .30-30 is reported to be improved with the AI alteration. Some inprovement in ballistics and longer case life. Just depends on what you want vis-a-vis cost and trouble of the work.

[yotatrd4x4]

Well I do like being able to have longer case life. Would I be ok if say I do the standard A. I. Ream then load to standard 30-30 loads. Would this be worth while to extend case life? I have only around 50 pieces of 30-30 brass and it's only been thru 3 loadings. Can anyone give me real numbers on case life of standard vs Ackley 30-30 cases?

[rosst]

for myself the question is'nt about getting more speed, its about building a better mousetrap, having mechanical advantages over the old model, money is secondary . . . i would like to know is there is any feeding issues with the AI in a leveraction, if not i would go with it and all smiles . . .cheers

[Bret4207]

Well I do like being able to have longer case life. Would I be ok if say I do the standard A. I. Ream then load to standard 30-30 loads. Would this be worth while to extend case life? I have only around 50 pieces of 30-30 brass and it's only been thru 3 loadings. Can anyone give me real numbers on case life of standard vs Ackley 30-30 cases?

IME and judging by that reported by others here, the biggest issue with 30-30 case life comes from hot loads and FL resizing every loading. When I started out it was "common knowledge' that you HAD to FL size anything ever to be used in a lever gun. Fast forward 20 years and the guys here, one of our former sites actually, got me trying neck sized brass. Case life improved dramatically. Cast loads instead of full throttle, wring every bit of FPS you can out of it loads helped a bunch more. Annealing helps too. I have 30-30 brass all fired in the same old 94 that has at least 12or 13 loadings and some 25-35 that must have 25 or more loadings. The less you stress the brass, the longer it lasts.

[yotatrd4x4]

That's sounds like pretty goOD case life to me. I have 5 firings on some 338 win mag brass and it still looks fine I have my dies set to just barely touch the shoulder so my brass has just a little tension on it when I close the bolt. I guess alot of people just full length size everything I did at first until I figured out you can use brass fired in you rifle to adjust your dies exactly where you want them and have less case stretch that way. Well I really don't try to over load my 30-30 I run bottom end cast loads for accuracy and fun wanna hunt with cast in it but wanna get a better mold first. My huntin load is 3031 with a 170gr j word and I'm right in the middle according to my Speer 13 manual. I thought maybe the ackley could give more speed without raising pressure to maximum. I prob will stick with factory since I already have high pressure heavy hitters. Out of all my guns the 336 just has a mystic appeal to it that I can't explain. I like my AR15 and love my 1911's and so one but it seems older rifles and pistols just make me feel connected to the past. When I hold an M1 garand or M1 carbine I feel connected to all of those in the past. I guess the 336 is the same even though I'm sure my Cherokee Indian relatives of the past are not as intrigued as I am by those old rifles.

[helice]

First question is what is to goin to cost to rechamer the Marlin?
Second question is what does it cost for a couple hundred 30-30 Star-line cases? Case life improvements probably won't amount to a significant financial savings compared to the cost of the gunsmith. I find gunsmithing to be expensive unless you've got a gunsmithing brother or buddy who cuts you a deal. The good ones know they are good and they charge for it.
I gave a bunch of thought to converting my 94 Trapper to a 35-30-30. Cost made it prohibitive for me. Anyway, when I was done thinkin it thru I couldn't find enough wrong with a standard 30-30 to change it. What I like about the 30-30 is the length of its neck; perfect for the cast boolit, (which is the perfect boolit:bigsmyl2:). I believe that the AI version shortened the neck a bit, more like a 308. That changed my feelings for it. Just my opinion.

[1bluehorse]

I ain't got much except to note that there have been articles on the 30-30 Ackley in Handloader, Rifle, various other pubs over the years. You gain a little, you lose a little. If you want something faster, doesn't Marlin still make their Super Duper 30 cal lever rig? I forget the name, Marlin Express maybe? Might be worth a look.

I have one of Marlins, as you say, "Super Duper 30's". You are also correct in the name. Mine is a 308 Marlin Express, same performance as a .308 Winnie. I don't think it would be hard to find a "pre" Remington model. The 338s on the other hand are a different story. Not to be found, or I would have one of those also..Best levers Marlin (or any one for that matter) ever put out for sure.

[felix]

Ackley versions are true Ackley conversions when the length of the neck actually is a little longer, not shorter. If the neck has been shortened, then the headspace had been expanded. For a fully rimmed case, that is not dangerous. Yes, the overall length of the case might be shorter, which is dependent on the amount of case expansion within the body of the case. ... felix

[Bret4207]

I have one of Marlins, as you say, "Super Duper 30's". You are also correct in the name. Mine is a 308 Marlin Express, same performance as a .308 Winnie. I don't think it would be hard to find a "pre" Remington model. The 338s on the other hand are a different story. Not to be found, or I would have one of those also..Best levers Marlin (or any one for that matter) ever put out for sure.

Thanks, I couldn't recall for sure. Everything pretty much came to a halt about the time the Iranians stormed our Embassy in Tehran for me. Got old timers for sure!

[largom]

Just get a 35Rem. or a 300 Savage. Just might be cheaper in the long run, and you can ALWAYS use another gun.

Larry

[yotatrd4x4]

Yeah I think I may leave it as is since it does shoot fine. To the above post on gunsmith costs. T is basically free to hand ream a 30-30 to the ackley version it requires only a small amount of skill to work the reamer by hand and can be done by anyone who has basic skills. Now I'm not saying anybody can do it but I have seen my uncle and helped him to it many times for a few of his good friends who all had to have the newest best whizz bang caliber. He used to tinker at his home with some gunsmithing but only minor things such as this. Almost all the ackley chamberings can just be ream from the standard caliber to the new ackley chamber with some exceptions. I like to tinker but since this is what I call vintage 1964 Marlin 336 that has seen maybe 300 rounds in its life but has been hunted and carried for 30+ years it looks well used outside but good inside I may just keep it in its natural state and have fun with it. Thanks to all for changing my mind. Seems like not much advantage and more disadvantage with cast which is my main goal to use cast in it.

[frnkeore]

Ackley versions are true Ackley conversions when the length of the neck actually is a little longer, not shorter. If the neck has been shortened, then the headspace had been expanded. For a fully rimmed case, that is not dangerous. Yes, the overall length of the case might be shorter, which is dependent on the amount of case expansion within the body of the case. ... felix

All rimmed cartridges head space on the rim, itself and need no shoulder to help them. The shoulder can be as far away from the chamber as you like, as long as the neck of the case will seal in the neck of the chamber and the case head is the proper size for that chamber.

I have four of Ackley's books and in those books, he gives the following shoulder diamentions for improved 30/30 based cartridges.

Lenght to shoulder is 1.5625 plus rim thickness (or base to shoulder) = 1.6275 +/- .002.
Length base to neck = 1.682. Shoulder diameter = .410 @ 40 deg. of course

Standard 30/30 SAAMI diamentions,

Length from base to shoulder = 1.4548, .403 diameter
Length from base to neck = 1.5784

So, I can't see where the 30/30 AI can have a longer neck than the standard version.

He also claims to get as much as 39 gr of 3031 in his case with a 125 gr bullet.

He further claimed that there was LESS bolt thrust on the lever actions do to less taper and the 40 degree shoulder. He actually fired a lever action (94 I think) w/o the locking bolt in it (just the lever linkage) and nothing came apart.


Frank