.30 cal. swaged bullets

[g-1]

Hello Everybody
My name is Giancarlo, and I'm an Italian long range shooter wich is raising up a web based company dedicated to avid long range reloaders.
Recently due to italian commercial restrictions I'm starting to investigate the possibility of custom swaged long range bullets.
In Italy we do not have law restrictions regarding import/export of bullets, but there are several "exclusive deals" from the big company with the most important bullet makers such like Sierra, Nosler and so on.
By the way, I've heard that custom swaged bullets are far better than standard bullets, and since I would like to offer the very best product in my website seems that this is the only way to go.
I tried for months to undestand the basic of this art, but here in Italy nobody goes on this road, so I had to read hundred of pages in English.
I clear up my mind a bit , but still I have some doubt.
Just yesterday I discover your forum, and I'm sure that you guys could help me to go in the right direction!
Long story short, this is what I wanted to do:
Custom bullets in .30 cal , flat base / HPBT / VLD-ULD.
Weight range should be from 155 to 210gn

Jackets : seems that J4 should be the best choice, even if Mr. Corbin tolds me that custom jackets are far better than J4, is it true? do you know a better jacket that J4?

Lead : import lead from USA it is possible, but very expensive. I should search for an Italian lead maker. everybody said that pure lead are the best choice, but I read that bullet makers use an alloy lead/antimonium ( 95%lead, 5% antimonium ) . why they choose this alloy even for "match" bullets?

Press/ dies : looking around I see that the best choice should be Corbin CSP-2 press with a complete set of dies, but I've read that delivery time could be even of 2 years! [smilie=b: do you have suggestions regarding other good press to use or better dies for my needs? I read in this forum that Niemi carbide dies could be a more precise equipment.

I have custom press made from and Italian guy some years ago.
There are only 10 of them in the world, very well made and with an outstanding precision. it is a HUGE press! it weights almost 50Kg , all made in steel and Avional, and it was made for reloading the .50cal, so if I could find a good set of swaging dies to be ued in this press I could save some money and use this baby.:D
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d150/oneshot1964/T%20REX/DSCN4082-1.jpg
Mr Corbin tolds me that his dies were made for the CSP press, and they could not be used in a "standard" press, so he suggest me to buy one of his press for better results

I wold love to hear your suggestion , also for a good book to learn the basics of swaging.
I'm going to buy the Multi-Media Library of Swaging from Corbin's , do you know other good books?

thank you very much , and sorry for the bother.
ciao
Giancarlo

[felix]

Giancarlo, you have to narrow down your customer base to come out ahead money wise. You need to pick from: group shooters, score shooters, game hunters, varmint hunters, or general purpose pray and spray let-off-steam folks. ... felix

[nicholst55]

If I were looking for swaging dies for commercail bullet swaging, they would be carbide dies from Niemi.

[g-1]

thank you for your reply Felix, yes , you are right.
the Big trouble is that If I make only a single product ( FB bullets, for example ) the money neded for all the equipment should not worth the effort.
I'm focused on competition shooters, that search the best bullets for their ammunition, that's the reason why I'm looking for a good quality equipment.

My first idea was to make 3 kind of bullets, one for bench rest shooter ( flat base , from 155 to 168gn ) one for long range shooter ( VLD or ULD , from 155 to 210gn for the guys with a .300win mag ) and finally a classic bullet ( HPBT ) for the shooter that does not like the VLD bullets.

I understand what you suggested me, maybe I should focus on a single type of bullets, but if I don't read wrong I "only" need a specific die for the base of the bullet ( if FB , HPBT or RBT ) and a die for the ogive profile.
I thought this was possible with something like a "full die set" offered by Dave corbin, am I wrong?

[g-1]

If I were looking for swaging dies for commercail bullet swaging, they would be carbide dies from Niemi.

I heard that on this forum before... seems that Niemi carbide dies are the very best.
Just I can't find a website or an email address to contact this Gentleman :oops:

My english is not so good to stand a clear conversation via phone, and I do not want to bother him.

Also, I don't know if these dies could be used in a "standard" press or if I still have to buy a CSP-2 press .

Is there a place where I can give a look to this dies? I'm very curios about it!

[felix]

I can be of no further use to you, Giancarlo, because I have been not been seriously thinking of any kind of swaging since about 40 years ago. Your best bet would be to look around the benchrest central board(s) and ask for very specific details there, sort of like one "question" per entry and let the answers go to completion (no further response) before the next question is asked in a separate thread.

The only advantage of using hand equipment (home equipment) is the ability to FEEL. Bullets of any type must have the same "swaging" feel during EACH operation. When each bullet feels the same, they are as far as the gun is concerned. Therefore, do seperate each into "felt the same" lots. Let your wife do the swaging when it appears she is the best "feeler".

The ring around the base of the bullets should be identical in diameter within one specific lot. That is the base measurement.

... felix

[nicholst55]

I was actually thinking of David Detsch, who makes benchrest-quality carbide dies. You can reach him at: david@diemaker.us

I queried him in May of last year, and he quoted a price of $2,000 for a set of dies made to my design at that time.

[g-1]

I sent a mail to Mr. Detsch as suggested.
Just wondering if his dies could be used in a "standard" press or if I have to buy a dedicated swaging press.
I gave a look to the "swaging press" topic , and i founded that there are some posts made by the guy who made my press. Just hope that I could use it for swaging bullets with little modification.

[Reg]

G-1, do not give up hope, the right people just have not seen your thread is all. Keep going back through the forum. There are many here who have made exactly what you are after and it is them who you need to contact. Also there are a few here who are incredibly talented and can make the dies you need .
That is one very nicely made and very strong press you have and it should be more than capable to do what you want to do, you just need to match it up with the correct dies.
Swaging bullets is not like casting bullets. It take time, study and effort to make good usable swaged bullets and not everyone is up to it.
Hang in there.

[g-1]

thank you Reg, I really appreciate your words. :drinks:

[AggieEE]

Afternoon g-1. From what you are discribing sounds a lot like what Burger Bullets offers. They use J-4 jackets and Detsch dies, if I remember correctly. Yes you are paying for importing lead but you now have no learning curve to deal with as to what is correct to make a accurate bullet. All of us here understands the " I want to do this myself" mind set, however when it comes to making money sometimes it pays to look for off the shelve solutions. I wish you well and hope you find a way to make this work. AggieEE

[g-1]

hello AggieEE,
to tell you the truth I tried several times to contact some of the most important bullet makers but I had big problems with them...
most of them has an "exclusive contract" with the big Italian Importers, but even looking at the small company who makes custom bench rest bullets I have some issues that leads me to the "made by myself" road.
The most important is the weight.
A package of 10 or more bullet boxes of 100 could weight a lot, and the shipping fees could cost me even more than the bullet , and there's more : in Italy customs has the bad habit to calculate the taxes for the total amount of the goods plus the shipping fees, and recently they put a new tax of 16% more to avoid the import of the goods from abroad.
you can easily undestand what this means.
500$ of bullets
3/400$ of fees and taxes
160$ for the new "extra tax"
tot : 1000$ circa
and I still have to add my personal gain.:killingpc

Another aspect could be the availability of the bullets.
If I make them by myself I will always have them and not to wait for them.

These are only few reasons why I'm choosing this road, and I know that I will have to study and learn a lot before being able to make a good bullet.

Anyway, do you mean "Berger" bullets?
If yes, I tried this way some months ago, and after more than 6 months of waiting time and a lot of money spent for marks and stamps to have the Italian Official Declaraion required from them ( please remember that in Italy bullets are not subjected to any import or selling restrictions ) they told me that since I only have a webstore they are not interested in making business with me.
...a lot of money and time spent for nothing.
and yes, The first thing I told them was that I'm going to stay with a web based company to lower the price of my products.
Anyway, I look at this refusal like an opportunity and not like a failure. A challenge to learn something new and (I hope) a way to be the first in Italy to offer custom long range bullets.

[MIBULLETS]

Hello g-1, welcome to the site.

Detsch dies are very good and made from carbide, but are very expensive. I know of more than a few home bullet makers in the US using Corbin tool steel dies, and doing quite well in competition. I'm not saying they are as "good" as Detsch dies, but they are good. For the price of the Detsch dies, you could get a press and set of dies from Corbin. You would need the press since his dies do not work in a reloading press. Maybe you have looked at both Dave Corbin and Richard Corbin (RCE) already, so if what I have said is not new to you, then I am sorry.

Good luck either way though, if bullets are that hard to get in Italy, I would think you should be able to charge enough to make some profit.

[GerryM]

Giancarlo. David Detsch is the man you want for the type of dies you are seeking.
He can make what you need. A standard set of 30 caliber dies will probably be around $2400 then you will need some kind of press modification to hold the punches.
The press you have is a great one to swage bullets.
One other press that will work for you is the Redding BIG BOSS modified for bullet makeing. Makeing the lead core takes a lot of pressure so I would suggest to have something done { extra Ram made for your press], along with a ejector assembly.
David can make a standard set of dies for your Flat Base FB bullets.
You can also order Boattail punches and seater dies for the BT bullets, also a rebated BTbullet. The standard BT punches are very sharp and delicate , so i suggest you consider the rebated type of punch set up.
I also suggest you use staright 99% lead for the cores, Jackets can be bought from Sierra in 30 caliber also, J4 Berger, You will find little differance in the quality and Sierra costs less. I hope this helps

[g-1]

Thank you Gerry, you gave me precious informations.
Yes I do have also a redding big boss press, so there is no problem at all to use both press for swaging.
I would love to use my "T-rex" press just because it's more precise and powerful compared to the big boss.
I'm trying to learn something more but the farther I go the more I got stuck with doubts!

So now I got a clear view of what I need :
standard set for the .30cal, with flat base and an optional die for boat tail , rebated boat tail and VLD ogive design.

ogive profile could be a 8S or 9S for "standard" ogive ,and a 14S of secant Ogive ( ULD)

I also find an Italian Lead supplier and I tried to contact him, but unfortunately seems that he's on a vacation, so I have to wait.

Jackets are one of the big doubts that I have.
J4 or Sierra ? or the Vesatile bencherst jackets made by Corbin's?
Do you think that for this purposes ( high quality bench rest bullets ) there is an noticeable difference?

Also, I'm reading the swaging bullet manual from corbin website and I would love to hear from you what do you think about his consideration regarding carbide dies Vs standard dies.

here's what I've read:


...cut...

There is no such thing as a single kind of die material called “carbide”, except
in the minds of ad writers. When you heat any tool steel to a high enough temperature,
some of the carbon in the material dissolves in the nearby iron, and
forms a ferric carbide material which can be captured in the frozen matrix of the
steel if the temperature is lowered quickly enough.
The ferric carbide trapped in the steel mixture is primarily what gives the steel
its hardness. The structure also has a matrix of iron and other elements, which
form complex compounds that give the steel ductility, ability to remain hard at
higher temperatures, corrosion and shock resistance. All hardened steels have
“carbide” in them: that’s what makes them hard.
If you systematically reduced the amount of iron and increased the amount
of carbon that dissolved in the iron that was left, you would wind up with a very
hard, but also very brittle material. It might be almost “solid carbide” but it wouldn’t
be very strong. By forming compounds of tungsten and other metals with carbon,
the General Electric company (and others) developed commercially acceptable
variations of “carbide” in a wide variety of grades. General Electric’s trade name
of “Carboloy” was applied to some of these.
The important thing to note is that there are variations that are nearly as soft
as hardened tool steel, and others that are so brittle that they shatter like glass if
force is applied incorrectly. Some carbide materials can handle high temperatures
and some fracture when heated and cooled during use. Some make good tool bits,
and some are only good for a thin coating on the surface of a hardened steel bit.
Some are reasonable to machine accurately, and some cost a fortune to machine
compared to making the same shape from a good tool steel.
If you were to be faced with the decision of a material from which to build
dies for a high speed punch press, working at 40 strokes per minute or more, and
making several million bullets, then one of these grades of carbide material could
give you higher temperature operation and thus longer life than a tool steel die.
Because the harder materials are more abrasion resistant, you would be able to
run the dies for a longer time before replacing them.

They would still need to be lubricated: the idea that carbide dies need no
lubrication is foolish. It is like saying that because your car engine might run
100,000 miles without changing the oil, you don’t need to change the oil. It
might run 250,000 miles if you did!
It is necessary to consider value to make a good decision about die materials.
Value is the cost of the die amortized over the number of bullets you expect to
make, considering the amount of wear which will take place before the bullets are
no longer acceptable quality. It is somewhat subjective, since one person might
consider a die “worn out” when the bullet diameter increased by 0.001 inches,
and another might find that the 0.3090 bullet shot even better than the standard
0.3080 in his gun. The point where you no longer consider the bullet diameter
acceptable determines the life of the die, for your application. Wear is related to
heat and abrasion.
If you operate your dies in a hand-fed system of any type, it will be impossible
to make more than five or six bullets a minute. At those stroke rates, any heat from
friction would dissipate into the air before the next stroke. There would be minimal
heat buildup, so that normal swaging lubricant (Corbin Swage Lube) would be
sufficient to protect the die and the components from frictional abrasion not caused
by dirty components or by polishing compounds embedded in the jacket material.
In a power-fed system, it is possible to stroke the press so fast that heat cannot
radiate away into the air as quickly as it is generated, until the die becomes quite
warm. It reaches a stable high temperature by radiating heat into the air, and into
the frame of the press. Swaging lubricants may not stand this high temperature,
so the metal surface needs to be made of something that will remain hard and
resist abrasion without as much lubrication. Certain grades of carbides will handle
the job.
Value is indicated by first estimating the tolerances which are acceptable for
the bullets, and then figuring out how long a set of dies will give that range of
tolerances, and how many bullets are made with each set, for what price. The
lowest cost per bullet indicates the best value, all other things being equal.
In the high speed punch press, a set of dies might easily cost $3000. They
might slowly wear to an unacceptable tolerance after two million bullets were
made, at a cost per bullet of three thousand dollars divided by two million bullets.
This is a cost of 0.15 cents (not fifteen cents, but fifteen hundredths of a cent) per
bullet. In this kind of operation, properly made tool steel dies might only last
50,000 bullets, at a cost of about $300 for the dies. That is 0.60 cents (sixty
hundreds of a cent) per bullet.
Obviously, the value is four times greater for using the carbide dies in this
application. One might reasonably expect to make two million bullets on a punch
press system: at 40 strokes a minute, and a bullet per stroke, that is only about
104.167 days or about 3.5 months—assuming the punch press is run eight hours
a day, which isn’t unreasonable.
But even the largest and most successful custom bullet maker seldom turns to
punch presses. The average custom bullet operation (if one could ever say these
outstanding operations are anything close to “average”) turns out about 50,000
bullets a year. After all, the market is limited and the price is fairly high (worth it,

but not cheap). You probably wouldn’t make one million bullets in a lifetime of
hand swaging. If you could make two bullets a minute, and worked at it every
weekend for four hours, you’d only be making 24,960 bullets a year.
When run at less than ten strokes a minute with proper lubrication, the highcarbide
content die steels used by Corbin hold acceptable tolerances for at least
500,000 bullets, and some have made over 1,500,000 bullets in commercial operations
started years ago. Assuming the dies would make 500,000 bullets, this
means your $300 investment in dies would last for over 20 years if you made two
bullets a minute, working every weekend for four hours, every week of those
years.
If you are just now turning 20 years old, you’d be 40 before you needed to
buy another set at that rate. If you expected to live to be 100 years old, you would
have a lifetime of bullet making on just three sets of dies, for a total cost of $900.
Now, most people don’t make anywhere near 24,960 bullets a year unless they
are in business to make bullets. The odds are great you’d never make 500,000
bullets in a lifetime. But just suppose you did.
Your cost per bullet for determining die value would be $300 divided by
500,000 bullets, or .06 cents (six hundredths of a cent) per bullet. In your lifetime,
if you made 1.5 million bullets, you’d use up three sets of dies, so your total
cost per bullet would be $900 divided by 1.5 million bullets, or .06 cents. This is
for using tool steel dies.
If you purchased $3000 carbide dies, you would not get one bit more accuracy
or any better die, other than the fact that long-term abrasion resistance
would be less, so you could get by with one set of dies for your lifetime. We assumed
you might live 100 years, and make 1.5 million bullets. Your cost per bullet
with a carbide die set would be .20 cents per bullet ($3000 divided by 1.5 million
bullets). The steel dies are three and a third times better value for this application!
That is 333% more value for your money with the steel dies.
The reason I’ve gone so long into this is not any animosity toward “carbide”,
but because of the widely-held perception that just stamping the word “carbide”
on a die automatically blesses the product with supernatural powers and makes it
somehow more accurate.
A die is only as accurate as you can make the hole. It is a lot easier to make a
good die from a material that can be worked in its annealed state, then hardened
and given its final adjustment in size with diamond lapping in the hard state. The
easier a job is to do, the less it has to cost. So, you get more value: the same
accuracy for far less money.
Obviously, it is much easier to promote the myth, than to explain the facts.
Advertising is sold by the column inch or fractional page, or by the word...and it
costs a lot more to educate than to dazzle the reader. Fortunately, a book has
plenty of space for education and you’ve chosen that path rather than just allowing
yourself to be dazzled.

If I thought that there was better value for my clients in selling them $3000
dies, I’d certainly have no reason NOT to do it! I’d rather get ten times as much for
a set of dies, if I could justify it to myself and to my customers. But for the past 30
years I’ve been proving over and over that it isn’t good value for this application.
What, exactly, is the benefit, other than making more money for me? I’ll just have
to rely on the good judgement of ten more handloaders, instead, to make the same amount!

[Reload3006]

Dave Corbin is a good sales man but he is not a tool and die maker nor is he a machinist. What he writes is sort of true and a lot if it is straight up BS. First according to one of his family members the jackets he sells are J4 jackets repackaged.
Secondly There is a HUGE HUGE difference from silicon carbide and tool steel HUGE!!!!!!! Silicon carbide is made by heating and compressing powdered silicon carbide it is NOT STEEL it is magnetic but it is not steel. In most applications for the home bullet swager a steel die is plenty good enough. I can not see myself ever making enough bullets for my own use to wear one out. BUT if I were making them for sale where I was making thousands a week I would easily wear out a set of steel dies. Silicon Carbide is what we use to Cut tool steels. It can with stand the heat and abrasion that Steel cannot. But it too will wear out but will take it much longer to do so.

[MIBULLETS]

First according to one of his family members the jackets he sells are J4 jackets repackaged.

They used to be, but the new VB jackets are not. I do not believe they are as good as Sierra or J4 either.

I believe the part about paying for carbide dies vs the tool steel dies. I have made 10s of thousands of bullets on some of his dies and see no noticeable wear yet.

[starbits]

As far as lead goes you should check with the local roof repair people. A lot of lead was used for flashing around pipes and gutters. You might also check with plumbers for lead. It won't be a steady supply, but would be a lot cheaper and it is mostly pure soft lead.

Starbits

[g-1]

I'm not sure about that starbits... in Italy is not so easy to find plumbers with almost pure lead, and this could mean that I have to use another instrument to purify lead and another one to make a wire of the right size .
A reliable company that can make lead wire of the right measure and the right pureness at every single order that I will make seems to me the best way to go if I want to make BR bullets.

I would like to thank you for your suggestions, now I know that a j4 jackets is the best product that I can choose.
I will wait for Mr. Detsch reply, and in the meanwhile I'm reading all I can ( thank you very much marten, I owe you a drink :D )

One last question : do you know if there i a better jacket for .30cal bullets than j4?
if you have suggetions please do not hesitate to tell me .

[GerryM]

Sierra match jacket hold the same quality as J4 berger jacket and are made from guilding metal 95% copper 5% zinc. This make the best jackets.
Caarbide dies are the way to go for someone making a lot of bullets. David detsch will make dies for each need. tool steel dies wear sooner then carbide Ie Tool steel will show wear at sooner then carbide carbide dies that David makes will last for 4 to 5 million bullets with little wear, as long as you use the proper lube and make sure the jackets are clean when you use them. Sierra jackets and burger jackets are washed before they are sold.
They are ready to go into a bullet machine.
Lead should be as soft as possable Brill 5 to 7 for cores and clean , with no oxidation on it.
I lube my wire before i cut the cores. This helps the core forming die make the weight uniform. I then wash the finished cores in hot soapy water aand rinse in hot water , dry on a clean towel. Sierra has 30 cal jacket pre packaged in boxes of 1,000 1.155 long ,
these are the ones for 150 to 168 gr bullets

[DinoS]

Private message sent to you.

Ciao, Dino