How much grip should a case have

[justinhip]

How much grip should a case have on a cast GC bullet? Oh, in 44 mag? My understanding is that a bullet sized 431 should have a case expanded to 429?

Thanks

[sbeatty1983]

different brass is going to have different tension on the bullet. With a revolver though you have a roll crimp that can be set heavy or soft to hold the bullet in place depending on whether its a heavy load or a lighter target load. Neck tension is really more important in an auto that uses a taper crimp and headspaces on the case mouth.

[randyrat]

I have a expanding button .429 for a.430- .431 boolit. You get some spring back also from the brass so if your shooting light loads you can use .430 or maybe a .431 (depending on good brass) for a .431 boolit.
Don't depend on crimp.

I wish I had a ray of expanding buttons - .427,.428,.429, .430,.431.I only have 2 One for Jacket bullet and one for my Cast boolits.

A good question= Where to get these ( I had mine made by Deltaentriprize)

Here is were I got a lesson on it.
http://www.levergun.com/articles/thoughts.htm

[Bret4207]

You need just enough to keep the boolit in place and help the powder achieve a good burn. How you measure that with the tools available to the average reloader...no clue. The term "heavy" or "light" crimp are as ambiguous as "hardcast lead". You'll need to use you personal Mod 1 crimp tester wrist and elbow to determine how much you apply I guess.

[btroj]

Case tension is also dependant upon the cartridge. Something like a 44 mag can have more tension with no trouble but a case like 9 mmit can cause you grief. Those short little 9mm ases have so much taper that they can actually squeeze ypur bullet base and make it smaller.

Like everything else in shooting, it depends. See what your gun likes and go with that.

[44man]

Bret replies good, enough to hold. Crimp is secondary.
As long as you do not size the boolit while seating is a good way to say it.
With hard lead, tension can be very tight so the case looks like a snake with a moose stuck in it's throat. :holysheep
Soft lead is the big problem in a revolver because you need to open brass more and then try to depend on crimp which will not open fully so you again size the boolit. Crimp itself has very little affect on getting a slow powder to fully burn. The best way to think about it is crimp helps hold boolits under recoil but does little for the round being fired. Case tension is what really holds in boolits from recoil. I have shot factory cast that tied up the guns and they had full profile Crimps that ruined brass.
My tests have shown you can have a little lighter tension, tighter and very tight as long as the boolit will stand it. All will shoot good as long as tension is as even as you can get it from case to case. Just have enough for a good burn and ignore crimp to start powder.
Now to throw in a wrench, tension is just as important with "J" bullets, don't think it is different. It must be EVEN too. If a bullet goes in real easy and the next is hard to seat, don't expect to to hit a thing.
I can't go into expander sizes because it means little, it is mostly feel when you seat. I can measure seating pressure and can sort.
Brass you use means nothing either. It is still the evenness that each boolit is held.

[justinhip]

Ok, it seems there is no exact answer but testing and consistency......

[44man]

Ok, it seems there is no exact answer but testing and consistency......
Exactly!
I had a horrible time with the .44 when I started IHMSA loooong ago. I was shooting Hornady bullets. I said a revolver is crazy to shoot that far with accuracy.
It dawned on me one day that I felt different pressure when I seated. I made a tool for my press handle to measure each round. I set them on the bench with the number on a piece of paper. Soon I had about 10 piles. If I shot the looser ones I got a good group and so too were the tight ones very good. Now all had enough tension either way.
But the POI between the loose ones and tight ones was 10" at 50 meters. So if I just mixed them I would only get a 10" pattern.
I worked with a BR die maker and he made me BR collar dies. I needed no expander.
The next shoot was state and I shot 79 out of 80, missed the last ram at 200 meters from head games.
Then I found Hornady dies make good loads without the hassle of the BR dies. RCBS had the wrong expander.
I never recommend dies other then what I found works because I never tried other makes but I found what you do to brass and the dies used is the very start of accuracy. The best boolit you have will not shoot if it is not held right and even, so you will blame the boolit. Almost any boolit ever made will shoot great, it is the brass that is the enemy.
Then I found brand new brass was the very worst for consistency and piles on the bench grew larger. Testing without sorting needed the whole target.
It will amaze you the amount of different cast that will shoot from your gun. Just go back to brass first. I can not tell you that you need a certain size expander in thousandths, only that each boolit has to be held with the same tension. THAT is what evens powder burn.
Next is to reduce primer pressure in the .44. I use nothing but a Fed 150 standard.

[Shiloh]

The factory expanders seem to be designed for jacketed bullets.

Shiloh

[44man]

The factory expanders seem to be designed for jacketed bullets.

Shiloh
They work with cast if the boolit is tough. They are all I use, nothing special. It is HOW the expander works. I have never found a need to stray from both bullets or boolits with the proper dies.
You need the boolit to expand the brass when you seat, not to have brass size the boolit.
Go softer and softer and expanders need to be larger and larger until you have no case tension at all. You reach the point you don't need to size the brass at all. Why size and then open the brass with an "M" die to take it back to unsized? Why not just seat in fired brass?
You lose the point that a boolit must be held.
Dies for jacketed are what you need for cast. Change your boolt.

[paul h]

As with most things casting a shooting, it depends. If you're using a soft cast bullet than a case that has too much case tension will literally size the bullet down when you seat it, and accuracy will be adversely affected. If on the other extreme you're shooting a 300gr cast bullet with a max charge of H-110, too little case tension will result in inconsistant powder ignition and less than the best possible accuracy.

I tend to be of the opinion that more case tension is better than less, and if you can see a ripple in the case conforming to the driving bands and lube grooves, you're on the right tract.

[Longwood]

Exactly!
I had a horrible time with the .44 when I started IHMSA loooong ago. I was shooting Hornady bullets. I said a revolver is crazy to shoot that far with accuracy.
It dawned on me one day that I felt different pressure when I seated. I made a tool for my press handle to measure each round. I set them on the bench with the number on a piece of paper. Soon I had about 10 piles. If I shot the looser ones I got a good group and so too were the tight ones very good. Now all had enough tension either way.
But the POI between the loose ones and tight ones was 10" at 50 meters. So if I just mixed them I would only get a 10" pattern.
I worked with a BR die maker and he made me BR collar dies. I needed no expander.
The next shoot was state and I shot 79 out of 80, missed the last ram at 200 meters from head games.
Then I found Hornady dies make good loads without the hassle of the BR dies. RCBS had the wrong expander.
I never recommend dies other then what I found works because I never tried other makes but I found what you do to brass and the dies used is the very start of accuracy. The best boolit you have will not shoot if it is not held right and even, so you will blame the boolit. Almost any boolit ever made will shoot great, it is the brass that is the enemy.
Then I found brand new brass was the very worst for consistency and piles on the bench grew larger. Testing without sorting needed the whole target.
It will amaze you the amount of different cast that will shoot from your gun. Just go back to brass first. I can not tell you that you need a certain size expander in thousandths, only that each boolit has to be held with the same tension. THAT is what evens powder burn.
Next is to reduce primer pressure in the .44. I use nothing but a Fed 150 standard.

You are so "Right on", 44man.
I went through the same thing when I decided to shoot in the revolver class. I had little faith in the revolver until I started noticing my groups getting smaller after asking lots of questions and doing many tests with well sorted brass.
When I was satisfied with my load, (and impressed), I could easily shoot 3" groups on the Rams with a Dan Wesson 44 mag.
Those early experiments, are what really convinced me to buy a neck turning lathe.
I recently got back int shooting but with rifles.
My friend could not understand why I ordered so many new brass. it is because it can often take a hundred to get twenty good ones.

[GL49]

"With hard lead, tension can be very tight so the case looks like a snake with a moose stuck in it's throat."

That's a good one, 44man!

[Bret4207]

They work with cast if the boolit is tough. They are all I use, nothing special. It is HOW the expander works. I have never found a need to stray from both bullets or boolits with the proper dies.
You need the boolit to expand the brass when you seat, not to have brass size the boolit.
Go softer and softer and expanders need to be larger and larger until you have no case tension at all. You reach the point you don't need to size the brass at all. Why size and then open the brass with an "M" die to take it back to unsized? Why not just seat in fired brass?
You lose the point that a boolit must be held.
Dies for jacketed are what you need for cast. Change your boolt.

I believe achieving a balance point between the variables is key. I don't believe it takes "hard" alloy to shoot well for a second, but that what a lot of people will take from your post. There are several ways to get the balance we need. Rarely does anyone mention annealing work hardened brass, it's worth considering.

[John Boy]

Lead bullet neck tension - 0.001 to 0.003


The term "heavy" or "light" crimp are as ambiguous as "hardcast lead". You'll need to use you personal Mod 1 crimp tester wrist and elbow to determine how much you apply I guess.
The DMST (Don't Mean Squat Test) for Crimping Hardness:
Light ... 3 or less whacks with a kinetic bullet puller
Medium ... 4-6 whacks
Hard ... 7 to 10 whacks

Source: Mine, tested with 45 Colts, crimped with the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die using a Frankford Kinetic Puller hit on a 2 lb lead ingot
Test performed with black powder reloads for minimum blow back

[44man]

I believe achieving a balance point between the variables is key. I don't believe it takes "hard" alloy to shoot well for a second, but that what a lot of people will take from your post. There are several ways to get the balance we need. Rarely does anyone mention annealing work hardened brass, it's worth considering.
That is correct!
I do not shoot super hard boolits, just enough and I prefer to call them "tough" enough. That is the easiest thing. Brass drives me nuts.
Annealing is best for a single shot or rifle but most of my revolver loads are for hunting and boolits will pull, no way to hold them with soft brass. I tried it with just a bare color change at the very end. What a mess! [smilie=b:
While fooling around I shot the revolver with no crimp and it still shot great so I settled on "just enough" crimp, over crimping is not needed. The hardest thing to do is explain what is just enough.
All is balance.
Once I made crimp too much I broke the tension and they shot worse.
Even a 50-50 alloy can be oven hardened to WW metal hardness and shoots great without harming expansion.
I am lazy and if seating sizes a boolit I make the alloy tougher instead of messing with expanders.
The problem I had was some dies open brass too much even for jacketed.

[popper]

#17 of http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=672747 gives some really good definitions. It appears the consensus is that low and high BHN work well, the difference is in loading technique, equipment and cost. I do believe that understanding the 'physics' will allow loaders/casters to make better choices for their gun. The results, as posts, from others will simply (I don't take that work lightly) shorten the trial and error path. The only bad answer is a bullet that doesn't hit the X repeatedly.

[44man]

#17 of http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=672747 gives some really good definitions. It appears the consensus is that low and high BHN work well, the difference is in loading technique, equipment and cost. I do believe that understanding the 'physics' will allow loaders/casters to make better choices for their gun. The results, as posts, from others will simply (I don't take that work lightly) shorten the trial and error path. The only bad answer is a bullet that doesn't hit the X repeatedly.
I have tried Laser Cast with poor results. I found most were too undersize. Nice boolits but not compatible sizes.
Hard to very hard for me has only increased accuracy in revolvers. I stop at where hardness works to save money. I have had extreme accuracy at 30 BHN. I can almost match it with softer like WW metal.
I have no beef with Laser Cast about the alloy or hardness, just fit.
I do not believe in expansion to obturate in any gun. It is nothing but a path to poor groups.
.001 or .002 over groove size is no better then exact groove size but under and expansion to fit is not good.
Why does cast have to be over groove size?

[felix]

It doesn't unless the freebore is larger. Cylinder holes, timing and angle adjustment is such that the boolit dynamically centers into the barrel's forcing cone. ... felix

[Bret4207]

#17 of http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=672747 gives some really good definitions. It appears the consensus is that low and high BHN work well, the difference is in loading technique, equipment and cost. I do believe that understanding the 'physics' will allow loaders/casters to make better choices for their gun. The results, as posts, from others will simply (I don't take that work lightly) shorten the trial and error path. The only bad answer is a bullet that doesn't hit the X repeatedly.

AMAZING! The Mall Ninjas at the High Road have been lurking here reading up on cast! What a change from a few years back when it was "you can't shoot lead in auto pistol", "cast will always lead up your gun", "cast is dangerous!". There may be hope for them yet.

[Bret4207]

I have tried Laser Cast with poor results. I found most were too undersize. Nice boolits but not compatible sizes.
Hard to very hard for me has only increased accuracy in revolvers. I stop at where hardness works to save money. I have had extreme accuracy at 30 BHN. I can almost match it with softer like WW metal.
I have no beef with Laser Cast about the alloy or hardness, just fit.
I do not believe in expansion to obturate in any gun. It is nothing but a path to poor groups.
.001 or .002 over groove size is no better then exact groove size but under and expansion to fit is not good.
Why does cast have to be over groove size?

As Felix said, to fill the throat. FIT.

[44man]

As Felix said, to fill the throat. FIT.
That's a good point. I do it for my BPCR. I actually was shooting .464" from a .459" groove.
My good revolvers have good throats and shoot groove size fine but the old .44 does better with a little over. YET, the 1-5/16" group I shot with it at 200 yards used my boolit that is .429" one way and .430" the other, I screwed up the cherry size. Throats are .4324".
You see why it baffles me, Bioman gets 1/2" groups at 50 yards with my boolit in his SBH Hunter. The son of a gun shoots his deer in the neck! 8-)
I have never proven one way or the other because my .44 has seen many thousands of groove size bullets and boolts.
I tend to think it is the boolits ability to align in the cone. Maybe why a Keith does not shoot for me.
I have gone to as large as I can chamber, don't remember, either .433" or .434", a boolit I made for the Marlin and never seen a difference. I have dies from .430" to .434".
I am up in the air over this because stuff that should never work actually does.
Same as neck sizing for the revolver, FL shoots the same. Dropping a round in or forcing it in has made no difference.
I always lean towards getting the most even powder burn. Fooling with the .44 since 1956 has shown BRASS IS EVIL!

[felix]

Don't let if baffle you, Jim. You already know the answer well. The measurements you referenced are initial (static) measurements. The accuracy ONLY cares for dynamic measurements and could care less what is up front. That's the guessing game we call: a hobby. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Felix..For those of use without technical education please define, static and dynamic measurments.

My educaton has been in Drama, Law and Theology so those terms mean nothing to me and I want to understand. I am a quick study, so give me a hand with the terms..pretty please.

[Char-Gar]

For sixgun rounds, the factory expanders are plenty good for bullets of ACWW or harder. With softer bullets I like .001 to no more than .002 tension.

For really soft swaged bullet, I like expanders of the same size as the bullets. These can be hard to find, but you can have them made.

For 38 HBWCs, I have a special RCBS expander that measures .3585. The bullets fit the cases with very little, if any tension, so the hollow base won't be crushed. I use a taper crimp to make certain the bullet stays put. I also use fast powder like Bullseye, so I can get a good burn without a heavy bullet pull.

The Lyman 310 and Tru-Line Jr. dies have some good expanders. The 45s can be had in .452 and .454, the 44 in .429 and the 38/357 in .357 or .358. These dies open up the cases, very well for use with cast bullets. They can be had on Ebay for $5 to $7 buck, but you will need a bushing to use them on a standard press.

I have never had a sixgun with charge holes so tight, I didn't have to size the cases. I don't use carbide dies as IMHO the oversize the cases. I use older steel dies, that bring the neck down and then size the body just a tad. The sized case has a bottle neck look until expanded.

The sixgun dies for the 310 tool necksize only. That works if the brass is going back into the same sixgun. However if it will be used in another sixgun, often the brass will need to be sized farther down to chamber freely.

[44man]

Char-Gar, you are doing it right for what you shoot.
Redding now has a two stage carbide size die for the .45 Colt. The lower ring is larger.

[paul h]

Not sure if Felix is being cryptic, but you really can't take a dynamic measurement. I.e. you can't measure the dia of the bullet as it leaves the case and is acted upon by the force of the burning and expanding powder as it travels through the the throat of the cylinder into the forcing cone and breach of the barrel.

What you can do is measure the end result, i.e. the group size on the target. Perhaps that's what was really being adressed, targets don't lie and getting hung up on the dimensions of a bullet and the hardness of the alloy isn't going to be the be all end all of answering why a gun shoots, or doesn't.

[Bret4207]

Felix..For those of use without technical education please define, static and dynamic measurments.

My educaton has been in Drama, Law and Theology so those terms mean nothing to me and I want to understand. I am a quick study, so give me a hand with the terms..pretty please.

Uncle Felix came up with those terms for my benefit some years back.

Static fit- the initial size of your boolit prior to ignition.

Dynamic fit- what size the boolit ends up after the big light comes on!

[Longwood]

Putting all of these hints and facts in one thread is not very good.
There is a of of difference in how much case tension or roll crimp is required, depending on the gun, the caliber, type of magazine and a multitude of other things.

I did learn long ago that a improper roll crimp, will screw up the accuracy much more readily than a taper crimp.

[44man]

Putting all of these hints and facts in one thread is not very good.
There is a of of difference in how much case tension or roll crimp is required, depending on the gun, the caliber, type of magazine and a multitude of other things.

I did learn long ago that a improper roll crimp, will screw up the accuracy much more readily than a taper crimp.
Very true but one thing leads to another, just like sitting over a few beers. :drinks:

[Longwood]

It is pretty simple actually.
If the bullet is the correct diameter, the correct alloy and hardness, the brass has been sized to the proper size, the properly annealed brass has the correct neck wall thickness, the chamber is the correct size, and the best charge is used, the brass will expand enough to release the neck tension.

It is all of the proper's and correct's that are hard to find and take the longest to sort out.

[Char-Gar]

I didn't talk about crimp, because the OP didn't ask about crimp. He asked about "grip" and expander size. I tried to stick to expanders which pours over a little into case sizing. These are kinda both side of the coin, at least in my simple mind.

To be certain bullet alloy, powder rate, type and amount of crimp all factor in, but he only asked about expander size. Most folks can only deal with one issue at a time, throw too much stuff filled with ifs, ands and buts, and there can be an information overload. His questions will boaden out given time.

[Char-Gar]

Bret..Thanks, I think I asked that question once before some years back. I am very literal person and my world words mean what they mean. I have never done well with dramaspeak, legalese, theology speak, techspeak and the like. Words of art, which have meaning only in the context of a certain frame of reference, have never been kind to me.

[Char-Gar]

44man... I think I was aware that somebody was making dual carbide ring dies, but I have never seen one. The 45 Colt has always been a problem child due to the wide variety of sixgun specs and die specs.

I use an early 60's RCBS steel die, which produces a nice taper case that will allow for neck expansion, yet not size the bottom half of the case down too far so it rattles around in the cylinder charge hole. All of my loads are rather old school and mild by todays standards, so it works for me. I don't need or want the cases to have a death grip on the bullets for what I do.

One of the ongoing problems in getting folks questions answered on this board, is they are very general and don't state the contest of what they want to do. Folks then chime in from their context which will vary quite a bit and things will get confusing very quick.

Maybe we need to develop a system that identifies what our goals and context are. I handload like a retro old fart. Maybe that should be stated somewhere. :-)

[44man]

It is pretty simple actually.
If the bullet is the correct diameter, the correct alloy and hardness, the brass has been sized to the proper size, the properly annealed brass has the correct neck wall thickness, the chamber is the correct size, and the best charge is used, the brass will expand enough to release the neck tension.

It is all of the proper's and correct's that are hard to find and take the longest to sort out.
What makes it really hard is there are so many itty- bitty things that mean nothing and something you ignore is just so important.
To narrow it down to the smallest number means a man must try things. If you take the burrs off the inside of flash holes of revolver brass and take hours doing to find it did not take groups from 10" to 1/2", Why ever do it again?
See what I mean? Don't nit pick, go to the heart of the matter.
Cut casting and loading to the very simplest terms you can reach. The most accurate rounds can be made while you stare at the wall in boredom! :mrgreen: I say think to find it but never out think yourself.

[44man]

44man... I think I was aware that somebody was making dual carbide ring dies, but I have never seen one. The 45 Colt has always been a problem child due to the wide variety of sixgun specs and die specs.

I use an early 60's RCBS steel die, which produces a nice taper case that will allow for neck expansion, yet not size the bottom half of the case down too far so it rattles around in the cylinder charge hole. All of my loads are rather old school and mild by todays standards, so it works for me. I don't need or want the cases to have a death grip on the bullets for what I do.

One of the ongoing problems in getting folks questions answered on this board, is they are very general and don't state the contest of what they want to do. Folks then chime in from their context which will vary quite a bit and things will get confusing very quick.

Maybe we need to develop a system that identifies what our goals and context are. I handload like a retro old fart. Maybe that should be stated somewhere. :-)
I agree, nice way to put it.
I can only relate for what I use, hunting or long range.
A better thing would be to see what the OP needs loads for. We stray, it's always OK.

[popper]

system that identifies what our goals and context are many of us can barely talk or write comprehensively. It does help when the gun, cal, details are in the original post.

[243winxb]

How much grip should a case have on a cast GC bullet? Oh, in 44 mag? My understanding is that a bullet sized 431 should have a case expanded to 429?

Thanks

Bullet pull is what the military uses to test neck tension. The 5.56 needs 35 to 45 pounds to pull the bullet. This can be gotten if the case is expanded .002" on bullet seating. Read "farmer66 posts. http://gunloads.com/castboolits/showthread.php?t=105964 I have used a bath room scale, with leverage to push a bullet into the case to test this. No crimp was used. A 44 mag with a crimp may be tested by placing a weight on the scale and try lifting the weight with dummy rounds. A metal eye screw into the bullet nose may let you hook a wire between bullet & weight. The weight may have to be 100 lbs. The 30-30 has recorded 70 lbs pull with jacketed bullets, no crimp, pusing bullets into the case. May or may not work?? Anyone up for testing? :drinks:

[Bret4207]

Bret..Thanks, I think I asked that question once before some years back. I am very literal person and my world words mean what they mean. I have never done well with dramaspeak, legalese, theology speak, techspeak and the like. Words of art, which have meaning only in the context of a certain frame of reference, have never been kind to me.

IIRC the terms came about during the phase where we were hashing out fit. The light came on one day the FIT was KING and we had a lot of great discussions. At some point the light came on again and the difference between basic sizing die type fit and fit on ignition came up. Differentiating the 2 became necessary and Felix, our very own resident honest to God actual rocket scientist was kind enough to provide the proper terms.

Know what you mean about "dramaspeak". People who constantly use Latin or French or the latest "zing" words irritate me to no end.

[Bret4207]

What makes it really hard is there are so many itty- bitty things that mean nothing and something you ignore is just so important.
To narrow it down to the smallest number means a man must try things. If you take the burrs off the inside of flash holes of revolver brass and take hours doing to find it did not take groups from 10" to 1/2", Why ever do it again?
See what I mean? Don't nit pick, go to the heart of the matter.
Cut casting and loading to the very simplest terms you can reach. The most accurate rounds can be made while you stare at the wall in boredom! :mrgreen: I say think to find it but never out think yourself.

Variables, they all add up. It was impossible to get that through to a certain data mining author who used to post here prior to being banned.

[Bret4207]

Bullet pull is what the military uses to test neck tension. The 5.56 needs 35 to 45 pounds to pull the bullet. This can be gotten if the case is expanded .002" on bullet seating. Read "farmer66 posts. http://gunloads.com/castboolits/showthread.php?t=105964 I have used a bath room scale, with leverage to push a bullet into the case to test this. No crimp was used. A 44 mag with a crimp may be tested by placing a weight on the scale and try lifting the weight with dummy rounds. A metal eye screw into the bullet nose may let you hook a wire between bullet & weight. The weight may have to be 100 lbs. The 30-30 has recorded 70 lbs pull with jacketed bullets, no crimp, pusing bullets into the case. May or may not work?? Anyone up for testing? :drinks:

Okay, but isn't there another issue involved there? Do you think that bullet pull/tension is going to be the same pushing a bullet into as case as when it's coming out? Lube alone should change things. And then there's the issue of neck clearance. With a tight neck the pull test would be more accurate than with a loose neck where the powder may expand the case neck as the bullet is moving.

I wonder if there is a way to know accurately how much tension we have, really?

[243winxb]

Do you think that bullet pull/tension is going to be the same pushing a bullet into as case as when it's coming out? If the round has no crimp, i guess it would be the same. If the round is crimped, the bullet movement must be forward or pulled, not pushed into the case.
And then there's the issue of neck clearance. With a tight neck the pull test would be more accurate than with a loose neck where the powder may expand the case neck as the bullet is moving.
The best test for a 44 mag is, measure COL of the last of 6 rounds in the chamber. Fire 5 rounds, then check COL of the last remaining round. Has it moved forward from recoil?

[44man]

Variables, they all add up. It was impossible to get that through to a certain data mining author who used to post here prior to being banned.
Yes, with BR or for extreme accuracy, I do prepare cases with care, neck turning, reaming, etc.
But the revolver is controlled too much with brass structure. Boolits are too free to move at different rates just from the primer.
You can do the same as a BR shooter does and pick some cases by where they group and just use those.
Not my goal, I try to get every piece to shoot where I aim.
Seating pressure measurements and sorting has proven to work for me as it has a direct relationship to pull. To pull one and measure means you need to pull ALL rounds and sort brass that then need loaded again.
It has never been how much pressure, just so it is the same so if a boolit moves a little when fired before powder burn, the rest will move the exact same amount.
By doing what I do the .44 only has a mean average deviation of 9.9 fps, shot to shot. I suspect my larger bores are better because I get smaller groups at all ranges then my .44 can do. The best my .44 has done is 1-1/4" at 100 yards. Then the fluke of 1-5/16" at 200---PURE CRAZY! If you want me to do that again, hang around a few years! :bigsmyl2:
Loading like I do has let me center all 200 meter rams. Only wind does a job on the boolit.

[44man]

If the round has no crimp, i guess it would be the same. If the round is crimped, the bullet movement must be forward or pulled, not pushed into the case. The best test for a 44 mag is, measure COL of the last of 6 rounds in the chamber. Fire 5 rounds, then check COL of the last remaining round. Has it moved forward from recoil?
Depends on the powder. Slow needs more tension. Recoil needs more. Keep the boolit in the brass first. Crimp alone will not do it.

[Char-Gar]

Variables, they all add up. It was impossible to get that through to a certain data mining author who used to post here prior to being banned.

Words of truth to be certain. For a time (several years), I had a crusade going on against handing out loading data on web sites, for just this reason. It was a crusade I could not win, so I just stopped objecting and being such a HA about it all.

Some data handed out is dangerous per se. Other data handed out can become dangerous when all of the variables stack up the wrong way.

Well to be truthful, it also irritated me (and still does) that some folks are too lazy or cheap to buy a good load book with lab tested data.

Thus endeth the mini-rant of the morning.

[44man]

Load data is not infallible either. They go by COL but nose forms and seating depth are not addressed.
I have seen gun rags showing loads I would never go near.
There is danger if you stray but it has nothing to do with even case tension.

[Bret4207]

If the round has no crimp, i guess it would be the same. If the round is crimped, the bullet movement must be forward or pulled, not pushed into the case. The best test for a 44 mag is, measure COL of the last of 6 rounds in the chamber. Fire 5 rounds, then check COL of the last remaining round. Has it moved forward from recoil?

But even with no crimp, the brass is worked and stretches as the boolit is loaded. I don't think the measurements would jibe, but I have no idea how to test it to see.