Newbie bullet seating issue

[rfp357]

I need some help from the great people of this great website. I just started my reloading hobby by means of a Lee Pro1000 press set up for .45 ACP. I reloaded 20 rounds of Winchester brass and primers with 8 grains of Accurate #5 powder to an OAL of 1.230 as stated in the latest Lee reloading manual (I also confirmed this load on the Accurate website). I used 185 grain SWC lead cast bullets. It was only after I reloaded them that I found out it is best to fit the cartridge to the barrel of the gun itself.

When I checked my reloads in the barrel, they were WAY off. They sit way above the hood of the barrel. My question is how much further can I seat the bullets until I run into over pressure problems/hazards? The powder charge is the “start grains” charge so it is on the low side. Being a newbie and someone who has already lost digits to other non-firearm related explosions, I’m really concerned about the pressure issue as related to bullet seating depth and powder charge.

I’m also finding other reloads I’ve done (image on the right) seem to seat way too low in the case when I load it to the specified OAL. Should I not seat them down as far? If not, then how should I best determine the new OAL and powder charge? Thanks in advance.

[canyon-ghost]

A little look and see works: Look at the powder charge in the case before you seat the bullet. Reach down inside with a pen or screwdriver blade and put your finger on the amount of free space. Then, measure the bullet as opposed to that. Do you have more room above the powder charge than the base of the bullet will take up? At that particular depth of seating you can check your free space and that will tell you if you are coming close to compressing the load.

Keep in mind that some bullet styles aren't necessarily a good fit for some barrels or chambers. Your mold choice is going to be determined by the firearm itself, not how you want to use it.

I use a lot of flat point designs and semi-wadcutters. But, my swc's end up in revolvers and single shots. The semi-autos that I own generally get a flat nose without a paper ridge like the semi-wadcutter has.

Good Luck,
Ron

[KYCaster]

Wouldn't it be great if load manuals would tell you which bullet was used to develop their data?

Without that information you're on your own.

Personally, I'd make up some dummy rounds to find what the chamber will accept and start with the longest acceptable OAL with the lowest powder charge listed and shoot over a chronograph to see if my load is reasonably close to the velocity listed in the book.

If not then do more research before proceeding.

If the start load is OK then increase the powder charge or adjust OAL till you have a suitable load or you approach the max load in the book.

A good place to start looking for info would be web sites devoted to the 1911 and competition. Brian Enos Forums has a reloading section that would probably be worth a look.......but be very careful of data you find on the net.

Jerry

[44Vaquero]

The short nosed wadcutter is loaded way too far out! I usually load 185's and 200's with just a very small amount of the shoulder sticking out of the case.
Keep in mind that overall cartridge length is most often a maximum # in pistol cartridges. It is also unlikely that seating your bullet at depth that allows it to chamber in a 1911 is unlikely to result in an over-pressure situation with that load.

[OBIII]

A lot of people are having problems with feeding when working with wadcutters in a .45acp. You may want to start out with a RN and see how that goes.

[44Vaquero]

Just as a side note: My standard load 200 grain long nose SWC is loaded with an O.A.L. of 1,250! It functions in both my SA 1911 and Camp Carbine flawlessly. YMMV

OBIII, I agree to a point I never had good luck with the short nosed SWC. They always wanted to dive and catch on the feed ramp. The long nosed version is far more reliable.

[Plate plinker]

+1 on the round nose.. I had to throat and polish my Kimber to feed semi wadcutters

It is important that you find good info from the books.

The first round is definitely long at the shoulder the second I would guess to deep.
Once again seek more info.

[opos]

I had a CZ 97 in 45 acp and it flat would not feed anything reliably other than RN. I didn't want to get into a ramp polish job so just shot it with RN projectiles until I decided I didn't want to keep it (other reasons). I've heard it's pretty common to have feed problems with SWC in a .45 semi without some feed ramp work.

[C.F.Plinker]

FWIW I load my 185 gr Saeco to 1.150, the H&G 130 (also 185gr) to 1.165 and my Ohaus 200gr to 1.190 inches overall. This leaves about 1/32 of an inch of lead at the shoulder exposed. All of the case heads are at or below the barrel hood. They feed well in all of my 45s and I have never had any problems with failures to fire. The mouth of the 45ACP headspaces on the little ledge in the barrel at the chamber end of the rifling. Depending on the shape of the boolit nose and shoulder as well as the leade of the barrel there MAY be some free space before the boolit actually touches the rifling.

Start at the minimum charge, referencing several load manuals, and work up from there looking for the usual pressure signs.

[mdi]

The short nosed wadcutter is loaded way too far out! I usually load 185's and 200's with just a very small amount of the shoulder sticking out of the case.
Keep in mind that overall cartridge length is most often a maximum # in pistol cartridges. It is also unlikely that seating your bullet at depth that allows it to chamber in a 1911 is unlikely to result in an over-pressure situation with that load.

I agree.

For a new reloader I would suggest two things. First get a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, nearly all you need to know about shooting cast bullets. Also I'd suggest starting with a well tried and true load/bullet combo. For the 45 that would be the 230 gr. RN loaded to about 850 fps. This round has been reloaded so many times every possible problem has been worked out and folks here will know the soluton to those probs. When you get a few rounds under your belt, branch out to different bullets with different problems.

BTW, (if I missed the sarcasm, sorry :oops:) But every manual I have states the exact bullet used for developing the loads listed.

[wv109323]

Disregard OAL with SWC bullets in the .45 ACP. The "square" shoulder of the bullet needs to be 1/32" above the end of the brass case. The OAL of a 185 grain bullet and a 200 grain bullet would be different because of the length of the nose but the shoulder of the bullet would be in the same place in relationship to the end of the case.
In your pictures the first bullet is not seated deep enough. In the third picture the shoulder of the bullet appears to be flush with the end of the case. In the third round the OAL needs to be 1/32" longer.
The sweet spot for accuracy with the .45 ACP is around 775 to 800 FPS.
The 185 grain SWC bullet is more difficult to get to feed than the 200 Gn. SWC.
Most reloading manuals do not list loads that are commonly used for Bullseye Competition. Some of the loads used for Competition will not function a standard 1911 due to the weight of the recoil spring. Lighter springs are used.
The .45 ACP is not a real High Pressure round. With that you should not get in trouble with bullet seating depth except with loads near Maximum powder charges.

[km101]

You may also have a crimping issue that is causing your round not to go into the chamber properly. The 45acp headspaces on the case mouth, so the case/bullet must be taper crimped. And you should only crimp enough to make the round seat. Crimping too much will cause the case mouth to go into the barrel throat and lock the bullet in place. I usually use the diameter given for the OD of the cartridge "at the mouth) that is given in the loading manual. This should avoid over crimping.

Ken

NRA Life Member

[StratsMan]

+1 with wv109323...

The shoulder of a SWC, 185 or 200 grain, will hit the rifling on many barrels (especially match barrels) if seated out much AT ALL... I will seat my long-nose, 200 grain, SWC shoulders with no more than .020" beyond the case mouth... If I'm loading for my match barrel, then I try to keep the bullet shoulder even closer to the case... Otherwise, the shoulder hits the rifling before it's in battery and the trigger won't release the hammer.

Mind you, this assumes your sizing boolits to .452"... If they're smaller, then things work easier....

If you want your life to be easy, load round nose for awhile.... get the hang of loading cast boolits, then branch out to other shapes....

[Bret4207]

You may also want to get a single stage and learn to actually reload before going to a progressive. You don't learn to drive starting with a Ferrari.

[Joelkibby]

Wilson combat recommends a bullet with the profile of an H&G #68 200grain LSWC with a COL of 1.250inches. By the way I had lots of problems before this, but I think i know what is happening. After reloading my ammo, it would do the same thing as yours did. The cartridge would not drop in and be level with the barrel hood. I started to measure my reloaded round and found that I needed to taper crimp. I bought a taper crimp and took my barrel out and just adjusted my taper crimp die in until the cartridge was dropping in flush with the barrel hood. Hope that this insight will help or eliminate one avenue.

[Char-Gar]

You may also want to get a single stage and learn to actually reload before going to a progressive. You don't learn to drive starting with a Ferrari.

Now there is a word of wisdom, if ever I saw one!


The 1911 pistol and the 45 ACP rounds has been around for 100 years, and has been handloaded with cast bullets for at least 99 of those years. There are no secrets, mysteries or tricks to getting excellent function and accuracy with this pistol and these bullets.

I scratch my head, when I read of all these folks that have difficulties and travails with this round.

The progressive press is absolutely the worse place for a new reloading to start. Heck, I have been at this for 50 years and still don't have a progressive press. I wonder what I am missing out on?

[Char-Gar]

Ok...For the record, here it is by the numbers

1. Start with a good bullet in the 200 to 230 grain range. SWCs would be a Hensley and Gibbs 68 or clone, a Lyman 452460 or a good roundnose of 225 - 230 grains.

2. ACWW or harder allow

3. Any decent handgun lube

4. Size the bullets .452

5. Use Bullseye powder. The 45 ACP was developed with this powder and countless millions of military and civilian rounds have been loaded with it. The charge weight is 4.5 to 5 grains depending on bullet weight. 231 works well also, and probably a few other powders of the same burning rate, but I dont mess with what works and Bullseye works for sure and for certain.

6. Seat your "good bullet of choice" using the barrel as a guide. Seat the bullet down until the case head is flush with the back of the barrel hood.

7. Any large pistol primer will do just fine

8. Taper crimp your load. Here is how to adjust the taper crimp die;

A. Put a military or factory 45 acp round in the shell holder and run it up to the full heighth of the press stroke.

B. Screw the taper crimp round down as hard as you can on the round, using your hand only, no tools.

C. Set the lock ring, and you are good to go.

Boys, that is all there is to it. You can play around with all kinds of powders, bullets and the like and have the issues that seem so common. John Browning designed the 1911 pistol with the 45 ACP round to work a certain way. Do it tht way and you will get good results. Don't do it that way and you will probably get consequences you don't like.

I have loaded and fired at least 1/4 million rounds of cast bullet 45 ACP ammo through a score of various 1911 pistols. I have three now and this is how I still do it. So this is not theory or something I read. BTW..All of these rounds were loaded on a single stage or turret presses. Any decent cast iron single stage press will work just fine. They can be picked up used for little money on Eaby. I have four on my bench now.

1. 1950 Herter's U-3 cost me less than $5.00 after all the trading and swaping was done.

2. 1930s Pacific C, cost me $15.00 plus shipping

3. 1940s Pacific Super C, cost me $20.00 plus shipping

4. RCBS A2 - This baby was the high dollar press and cost me $175.00 plus shipping

I have used the Lyman Tru-Line Jr and Redding turret presses. They both work fine, but the Tru-Line Jrs is a light weight and that brings some downsides with it. I have a Redding on my bench now and all Redding presses of whatever vintage are worth the money.

That is it..I am done!

[largom]

You may also want to get a single stage and learn to actually reload before going to a progressive. You don't learn to drive starting with a Ferrari.

Truer words were never spoken! After 60 yrs. handloading I still use single stage presses, have 3 on my bench. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned or pig-headed but I could never understand the need to load boolits as fast as you yank the handle. My loading is slow and enjoyable just like my casting. I only use single or double cavity molds. Of course when one gets old they tend to try and slow life down to make it last longer.

Larry

[WilliamDahl]

I am of the opinion that when you start off reloading, you should start off with a straight walled rimmed cartridge (e.g. .357mag, .45-70, .44mag, etc), then go to a straight walled rimless case (e.g. .45ACP, 9mm, .40SW, etc), and then to the bottleneck rounds (e.g. .308, .223, .357SIG, etc). Starting on a single-stage press (or even a turret operated as a single stage) before you move to a progressive is also a good idea. Even better to start off might be loading .38 special for use in a .357mag revolver since the it would be more difficult to end up with a cartridge that was too long.

[rfp357]

Sorry guys I was away on business.

I appreciate everyone’s input. For those suggesting I learn on a single stage, I couldn’t agree more. I am using the 1000 as a single stage now until I’m comfortable then I might go full progressive but I’m in no hurry. I wanted to learn on a single but the 1000 was basically dropped in my lap and I couldn’t say no.

My particular 1911 dates back to a production date of August 1913 and I have fired 185 and 200 grain SWCs with no problems in the past. The round on the right (200gr) was built using 4.4 grains of Win 231 (start charge) with a published OAL of 1.225. The round on the left (185 gr) was built using a 8.0 grains of Accurate #5 with an OAL of 1.230. Bear in mind I was given these bullets and the powder so I used what I had according to the Lee reload specs.

At this point I plan to just use the barrel to seat the 185’s and I’ll pull the bullets on the others and reload them using the barrel as well. I’ll make up a dummy to check how much the shoulder is showing vs. barrel fit. I have loaded some Hornady RN with no problems as far as barrel fit/OAL.