Convince me that I need a .30-30

[Todd N.]

Gents,

I had a troubling day here recently. I was making the rounds of pawn shops, gun shops, and fishing gear shops with my youngest brother, and when we ran across several .30-30's at good prices, he said,"... you need one of those."

Now, I'm not averse to buying a firearm for any reason, or no reason for that matter. Like many others here, I've bought guns for reasons that I couldn't even explain to myself 4 hours later!

But, a .30-30???

I've never owned one, and I own many rifles and handguns. I haven't shot one since I was 10 or 12, and at that time I was having more fun shooting my dad's
-'06.
Currently, and for the last 15 years or more, my go-to rifle has been the trusty old Savage 110 I've had since my teens, .270 Win. And my teens were a long time ago, so I've put alot of lead downrange in this trusty old girl.

I recentlyacquired my dad's Marlin 444, 1969 vintage. Love this gun! I'm doing some fine-tuning thanks to Ranch Dog's guidance- thanks again, Michael!

But, I digress...

Can anyone tell me what a .30-30 is going to do for me? I'm not playing devil's advocate here; I really don't know the value of this round. As I approach the mid-century point in life, the need to buy something [U]just[U] because the price is right is now meaningless. My brothers' excitement at seeing Marlin 336's in decent used condition for around $225.00 sticker price is understandable.

But can someone explain to me, where my favorite little brother failed, why I can't live a normal life without owning one of these?
Thanks guys, I look forward to your wisdom!

[felix]

Todd, the reason for the 30-30 size of cartridge is simply one of the most versitle cast boolit calibers in existance. Better yet, find a Winnie lever 32 Special for the ultimate "factory" cast gun right out of the box. Load either to max power with ANY medium speed rifle powder, and, in the case of the 30-30, with any boolit less than 200 grains. The 32 Special in the Winnie requires 180 grainers or less because of its fantastic standard 16 twist. The 30-30's typically have 12 twist. Yes, indeed, you cannot go wrong having fun with these 150 yard guns. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

You don't "need" a 30-30, but if you shoot cast bullets, you will "want" one for the reasons Felix stated.

Let's see, I have two Marlins 336s, one Winchester 94, One Savage 340 and a Browning SS all in 30-30. Throw in my Winchester 94 in 32 WS for good measure.

They are all cast bullet shooting wonders. Nothing better.

[sundog]

Yea, what Felix and Charles said. Double ditto on the 32 Win Spl.

[jh45gun]

If nothing else they are just plain fun to shoot and carry well. After not having one for years I am having a blast with mine. I got rid of my Marlin as a teen because I like Winchesters and I inherited my Dads. That eventually wound up with my older brother and I went on to a passel of other rifles. I now have a Post 64 made in 64 Winchester that I bought for a 180 bucks a few years ago and I really wish I would never had sold my Marlin years ago now. I missed out on a lot of fun shooting.

[scrapcan]

What those have said above. and you can chase cans with it in the morning and shoot deer with in the afternoon. All with cast. It is economical on powder. You can run cast to the same level as Jacketed. And if you are looking at the marlins they are easy to mount optics on. A couple of years ago my wife bought a Winchester 94 commemorative NRA centennial rifle (24 inch barrel) for a great price and it had already been shot. It has become one of the family and will probably remain the the family after I am gone.

And if you can find a single shot or a bolt gun, you have an even better thing to enjoy. Have you had enough arm twisting yet? If not go to the library and find Sam Fadal'a book on the wincester 94. here is the title : Winchester's 30-30, Model 94: the Rifle America Loves

[Hunter]

John Wayne used a 30-30. That in itself is plenty of reason.:mrgreen:

[Marlin Junky]

My 336's have 10" twists and are awesome Lever Action Rifle Silhouette guns. 2100 fps is a reasonable velocity with 200 grain boolits from 24" barrels. My favorite heavy 336 load is RCBS30-180FN at 13 to 14 BHN propelled by 33 to 34 grains of H380 and it will shoot rams out from under their feet; i.e., any hit will take one down, even in the wind. The 30-30 is much easier to find in a 336 than the .32Spl and will handle heavier boolits because of the faster twist. Pick up a 336A or SC chambered in 30-30 made before '55 and enjoy.

MJ

[NVcurmudgeon]

It's un American to be without a .30/30. I gave my most recent Marlin 336 to my stepson, but my M 141 pump in Remington's answer to the .30/30 keeps Homeland Security from bothering me. They really are fun guns. You can load them from pistol-level plinkers to serious deer-sized game getters. If you can find it, read "Winchester 94 America's Rifle" by Sam Fadala. Fadala makes a very strong case for the versatility of the .30/30. And it's OK if you prefer the Marlin action, your Winchester friends will still talk to you.

[jim4065]

I love a big bore Marlin, but...........

No other gun balances and feels quite like a Win 94 with a 20" barrel and iron sights - like God intended. Shut your eyes and grab a 94's receiver, then a 336. Add to that the simple dignity of the 30/30. I rest my case.

No offence to you Marlin Maniacs out there. :-D

[threett1]

YOU DON'T HAVE A 30-30?:roll: I'm sorry man. Really sorry. Maybe you might still have the strength to go to that shop and get one before its too late. Didn't anyone ever tell you? Cruel world we live in.:(

[Todd N.]

Okay, okay, okay!

I will reconsider.

I have read through your responses twice to make sure that I did not miss anything, and I've (re)learned a few things, most importantly...


You don't need to be reasonable with a hobby

In all honesty, the .30-30 just seemed to be a fragile case, can't take much hot-rodding. I've heard plenty of stories about wrinkled cases and short case life from hot loads.
All of you have made good points, some of these are gems!


Hunter :drinks:

But between you and me, he liked the .38-55 better...

MJ
I'm inclined to spend time learning from you how you've gotten this round to shoot a heavy slug.

And Mr. Curmudgeon,

Yes I do like the Marlin action better than the Winnies. And you're right- my other friends still talk to me!!! And my all-time favorite full-service hunting rifle is my Savage, and my Remmy and Weatherby friends still talk to me. And I drive a Ford truck, and my Chevy friends.............. wait-














I don't have any Chevy-drivin' friends!

MJ, are the A and SC models remarkably different from others? Are we talking Ballard vs. MG? Micro Groove doesn't scare me. I am getting pretty nice accuracy from my .444 with cast, and I got very good accuracy out of a 336 in .35Rem that I traded off a few years ago.

Thanks to all of you for the great information! I learn so much when I read the things you share.


Todd

[Todd N.]

YOU DON'T HAVE A 30-30?:roll: I'm sorry man. Really sorry. Maybe you might still have the strength to go to that shop and get one before its too late. Didn't anyone ever tell you? Cruel world we live in.:(

That's just plain mean... :groner:

[dragonrider]

There's no question about it, EVERYONE needs a 30-30.

[Jon K]

Todd N,

I too prefer a 38-55 over a 30-30, but I am seldom without a 30-30 in the stable. Now is one of those seldom times, I have several 38-55's, but I will sooner than later have a 30-30 in the line up again. Hard to not have one they keep turning up, and impossible to turn down a good one.

I also drive a Chevy.

Jon
:brokenima

[Marlin Junky]

Todd,

Are you a boolit caster? If so pick up a nice old 336A or 336SC (these models are sans barrel bands) with Ballard rifling, a new RCBS-30-180FN from Midsouth Shooter Supply, a .311" sizing die, some aluminum tape, Hornady .30 cal gas-checks and well, the obvious... some clip-on wheel weights. A little solder might help too. I've already mentioned the powder you need, but to reiterate... H380, W760 or H414. I like H380 'cause it's easier to get 33 to 34 grains of it in a Winchester brand case than it is 36 to 37 grains of W760/H414. work up to these charges though. They are safe in my "G" gun ('51 vintage) and yield 2100 fps with RCBS-30-180FN at near 200 grains checked w/o lube. Oh yeah, I use Federal 210 primers with the H380 and 215 primers with the slower powders. If you really want to get tricky, use 32-40 Winchester brand cases and custom trim them to precisely fit your gun. My match gun likes 2.575" long rounds (loaded with 30-180FN) but 30-30 cases don't reach the crimp groove of RCBS-30-180FN when the COL is between 2.57" and 2.58". Therefore, I trim the 32-40 cases after fire-forming to about 2.08" for a perfect fit. When I use 30-30 cases, I Lee Factory crimp on the second driving band which is kind of a pain because I need to keep the case length close to 2.02" and if the crimp isn't just right I can feel/hear an occasional bullet slip in the magazine under recoil during the match... not an issue if you're not an accuracy fanatic. If the boolits do slip in the case, the mouth ends up on the trailing edge of the first driving band and I think the resulting COL is about 2.53" which translates to about a .050" jump to the rifling. Another reason for seating 30-180FN out as far as possible is to get the gas-check of a seated boolit as far forward as possible. Some of this stuff won't make sense until you start loading ammo and that's OK. BTW, I can probably round up enough 30-30 brass to get you started. At this point I can only guess how many cases I've got. Granted it's been trimmed to 2.02" but you can make it work. Also, I've been shooting the .30 cal 336's for over five years and the only case failure I've had is a neck split do to plain old age... the 30-30 thin case reputation must have been started by yahoos who don't know how to resize brass.

BTW, my 336A "G" gun will chamber a 2.1" 32-40 case after it's been run through an RCBS 30-30 FL die so I trim to 2.100" before fire-forming. When fire-forming I use my normal chicken/pig/turkey load of 16.5 grains of WC-820 and I loose virtually no case length when fire-forming; i.e., the cases are chambered at 2.1" and come out at just about 2.09+". What's also nice is I can fire-form during a match because there's virtually no difference in accuracy on the chickens and pigs when using my fire-forming load vs. ammo loaded in formed brass with the same 16.5 to 17 grain load of WC-820.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Todd N,

I too prefer a 38-55 over a 30-30, but I am seldom without a 30-30 in the stable. Now is one of those seldom times, I have several 38-55's, but I will sooner than later have a 30-30 in the line up again. Hard to not have one they keep turning up, and impossible to turn down a good one.

I also drive a Chevy.

Jon
:brokenima

Jon,

I've got a nice old (I think it's a "G" gun with a M36 style lever) 336A with a long throat (about 1/4" I think) that's not getting much use these days and I don't currently have a single 38-55. Would you like to see pictures of this 336A? The wood has been slimmed down and refinished with Birchwood Casey's TruOil.

MJ

[Todd N.]

MJ,
First off, you go and tease me with the tech aspects of making this idea work. And then what- threats of gun porn?
Of course I want to see pics even if Jon doesn't!

But seriously...
The first things that come to mind right off are:
1) Use .32-40 cases for what? Thicker web? Walls?

2) Why the different primers? Is this part of your search for extreme accuracy?

3) Quote " and if the crimp isn't just right I can feel/hear an occasional bullet slip in the magazine under recoil "
Are you SERIOUS???

4) No, I have not started casting. To me , it's like handloading but bigger. I taught myself handloading, none of my acquaintances/ shooting buddies/ relatives did it at the time so I started reading and just took the plunge! Casting seems to be more technical, so despite my reading, I still think I'm gonna wait until I meet someone else who does. In the rural area where I now live, I may be waiting awhile...:(

So MJ, in light of #4 above, do you have a bullet or two by a pro caster you would recommend?
And 1 more question if you will-
Is the .30-30 Ackley Improved REALLY worth the effort in a rifle? I know what it does in Contenders, but what gain is to be had in a carbine length barrel?

[S.R.Custom]

...can someone explain to me, where my favorite little brother failed, why I can't live a normal life without owning one of these?
Thanks guys, I look forward to your wisdom!

Because, at $225 it makes an eminently practical truck gun.

[Jon K]

MJ,

I'm not looking to trade, and 38-55's are not duplicates, 1-Win OFW Commemorative, 1-T/C, 1- Uberti High Wall.
I am trying to find the money to get a Marlin 1895 Cowboy 45-70. Or even another 38-55 lever if one popped up. This is a to do next list, because I just sent my Shiloh to rebarrel.
So, if Todd is interested in your 30-30.............

Jon
:castmine:

[Todd N.]

Because, at $225 it makes an eminently practical truck gun.

You Sir, are an eminently practical man!

I have given thought to the .444 I got from my Dad for the truck gun job, but for some reason (sentimental?) I don't want to do it. I have better plans for that rifle.

So if I have this right, the .30-30 is a short-range ( roughly 150 yard) light to medium hitter, depending on how it is stoked. It shoots pretty flat, delivers a decent amount of energy on target, and is very easy to handle and is capable of very good accuracy. And like my favorite .41 magnums, is a handloaders dream.

Right so far?

Okay. It'll take some thought as to which model(s) I want, but I think I'll do it.

But " truck gun" ? No, it won't be a truck gun. I have an AR-10 that performs very well in that role. Phenomenal accuracy, long range (400 yards or so) capability, easy to bring to bear, fast follow-up shots, and able to easily carry the 10X scope it wears- I live on the coast, but it's mountainous/ ravine-filled country and shots can easily go 300+ yards across a clearcut. And one of my kills last fall was a whitetail buck I spotted on my way to a jobsite to meet with a client. Lasered 258 yards from the bed of my truck to the edge of the powerline cut where that buck stood.
I'm afraid I would have passed on the shot had I been carrying a .30-30 instead of a larger caliber.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
First off, you go and tease me with the tech aspects of making this idea work. And then what- threats of gun porn?
Of course I want to see pics even if Jon doesn't!


Todd, I'll post a couple pics later but because of the long throat (I'm pretty sure it came from the factory that way circa late 1949) this gun is not for a 30-30 beginner.



But seriously...
The first things that come to mind right off are:
1) Use .32-40 cases for what? Thicker web? Walls?


Longer case length. Re-read post #16.



2) Why the different primers? Is this part of your search for extreme accuracy?


For a better burn with W760/H414 and about 50 fps more velocity than the same charge ignited by Fed 210's.



3) "and if the crimp isn't just right I can feel/hear an occasional bullet slip in the magazine under recoil "
Are you SERIOUS???


Yup. If the mouth of a standard length 30-30 case doesn't reach the crimp groove on RCBS 30-180FN at a COL of 2.575" where are you going to crimp the round? What is the round going to do under spring tension and recoil when the crimp doesn't hold... the boolit will "telescope" into the case.



So MJ, in light of #4 above, do you have a bullet or two by a pro caster you would recommend?


Nope. I don't shoot commercial boolits because they are too hard.



And 1 more question if you will-
Is the .30-30 Ackley Improved REALLY worth the effort in a rifle? I know what it does in Contenders, but what gain is to be had in a carbine length barrel?


Not when your first starting out. There are too many variables involved in the second part of that question to be answered in one post. Besides I thought you were interested in a classic 30-30 rifle or carbine?

MJ

[qajaq59]

Do you NEED a 30-30? Hmmmm, well of course your do. Every red blooded American needs one. Haven't you ever seen a John Wayne movie? ha ha

Just kidding. They are really a nice rifle for cast bullets and hog hunting. Plus as you age the lighter weight is rather nice as well.

[Bret4207]

You don't "hotrod" a 30WCF much, thats true. You can get decent real world effectiveness with 180-200 gr of lead at 1000-2200 fps. If you're a long range, laser sighted, 396 Superdoopertacticalextremewarp5 type of guy then the 30WCF will either be: A.- A total dog or B.- A breath of fresh air for the sheer simplicity of things. Cheap brass, cheap (home cast preferred ) bullets, no recoil to speak of, a pinch of powder, no super loud report, no scope to go haywire.... simple, cheap, fun. effective. And, as an added bonus, which one will a thief grab first- your AR or your lever gun? Which one will be outlawed sooner if we don't get off our duffs and fight? Which one is obviously "a military weapon meant to kill children and old ladys"? Maybe the 30WCF doesn't have much sex appeal, but I never cared much for bar floozies anyways. Get one and see if you like it. If not it shouldn't be too hard to get rid of at a profit.

You don't cast yet?!?!??!!!! Get a cheap Lee mould, a cheap pot and ladle and some wheel weights. Once the initial burns heal, you'll be hooked!

[Ed Barrett]

I thought John Wayne always used a Model 92 which you can't get a 30-30 into them no matter how hard you try. I've never owned a 30-30 long enough to shoot. I have shoot lots of them and I did buy a 30-30 barrel for my 99 take down but I never had it fitted. I sort hof like 35 Remintons and love .303 Savages, the pointed bullets in Savages sure beat the those tube loading guns. Just kidding I have several tube loading Win 92's and 336's. Back when I could buy 94's used for $50 fix them up a little and sell them for $80 I thought it was wonderful that the profit could keep me in primers and powder. If I would have kept half of them I wouldn't be waiting for my social security and retirement check every month.

[Hunter]

You are correct about the Model 92 not available in 30-30 but I though John Wayne carried a 94 in a few of the later westerns, maybe not.

[Keith429421]

John Wayne carried a model 92 in 44-40 throughout his career. It was modified by Yakima Canutt, his stunt double, by cutting the barrel down to 18 1/2" and enlarged finger lever so it could be twirled as first seen in his movie Stagecoach.
The later John Wayne Commemorative rifle was a model 94 in 32-40.
This is a picture of his rifle in the Western Heritage Museum in Okla. City.
http://dannybritton.zenfolio.com/img/p441280446.jpg
I have more of John Wayne artifact photos if you would like to see them.
By the way, I love my Trapper Model 30-30!!
Danny

[Hunter]

I be dog. Learn something everyday. Thank you and yes please share some more photos. I have a Model 94 Wrangler in 30-30 that I am in love with.

[Keith429421]

I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will post a new thread under leverguns - John Wayne Guns....
Danny

[Newtire]

Okay, okay, okay!

I will reconsider.

I have read through your responses twice to make sure that I did not miss anything, and I've (re)learned a few things, most importantly...


You don't need to be reasonable with a hobby

In all honesty, the .30-30 just seemed to be a fragile case, can't take much hot-rodding. I've heard plenty of stories about wrinkled cases and short case life from hot loads.
All of you have made good points, some of these are gems!


Hunter :drinks:

But between you and me, he liked the .38-55 better...

MJ
I'm inclined to spend time learning from you how you've gotten this round to shoot a heavy slug.

And Mr. Curmudgeon,

Yes I do like the Marlin action better than the Winnies. And you're right- my other friends still talk to me!!! And my all-time favorite full-service hunting rifle is my Savage, and my Remmy and Weatherby friends still talk to me. And I drive a Ford truck, and my Chevy friends.............. wait-I don't have any Chevy-drivin' friends!

MJ, are the A and SC models remarkably different from others? Are we talking Ballard vs. MG? Micro Groove doesn't scare me. I am getting pretty nice accuracy from my .444 with cast, and I got very good accuracy out of a 336 in .35Rem that I traded off a few years ago.

Thanks to all of you for the great information! I learn so much when I read the things you share.


Todd

Alot of the things people have already said but you could have a companion little brother to your .444. I have all kinds of loads for that 444 that are plinkers and the only time my Marlin ever leaded was with some undersized store-bought boolits-back when I was still living in the unenlightened world of the mainly full-length gas check ones. The .30-30 and the Lee soup-can eats less lead than the Marlin .444 and the Lee 200 gr. cowboy mold.

[shdwlkr]

Todd
Wether you get a 30-30 is up to you personally I don't like the 20 inch barrel model 94 so I can't tell you if they are any fun or not. I had an orginal in my youth which I traded off for something else. Have never been more upset about a trade maybe that is why I don't have any with short barrels
. Currently I have a 24 and a 26 inch barrel versions. I like the longer barrels and I think they are more fun to shoot. I also have 2 model 92's, 2 BB, and 86 and find all of them fun to shoot. I shoot lead in them because it is what was common when they first came out. and yes I cast and buy ready made lead bullets.
I just happen to be happy with the lever action rifles and shoot them more then my bolt action rifles. If the 30-30 doesn't interest you then don't get one but if you do try some 165 grain lead bullets which is what was first loaded in the 30-30 and see what fun it is to shoot.
I have been fascinated by the 30-30 for almost 40 years now and have never found it short on shooting as long as you keep the range to 200-250 yards or less and that is as far as most people can shoot good anyway.
just my 3 cents

[lovedogs]

So far my only .30-30 is a Contender but someday I hope to correct this with a Marlin. I don't need an excuse. I just seem to want one of everything. My only lever gun so far is my 1894 Cowboy .44 and it's been enough fun I'd like to try a .30-30. I've always wanted to try a .38-55. And I've been thinking of a .35 Remington. A .45-70 would be nice, too. Oh, I must be hopelessly obsessed with guns. Or maybe just a real American.

[1hole]

Todd, you don't need a .30-30. You do need a .35 Remington and you NEED it in a 336 Marlin! :)

In truth, I think every medium game hunter should have a true "woods" rifle if they are really into deer or hog hunting. A 336 (ok, if pushed I'd almost admit a 94 too) is a woods rifle par excellance. Why? Short range snap shots in heavy cover.

Find a good wing shooting shotgun, one made for hitting flying quail and then lay a lever rifle over it. You will immediately notice that the stock dimensions and balance points are very much the same. That means when in deep woods the lever gun will come to shoulder as fast and shoot as well as a good bird gun! That's not so with bolt rifles, they are stocked for deliberate shooting at longer ranges. A serious hunter needs both types of rifles to match the game and environment.

Okay, go buy the .30-30, it will do in a pinch. ;)

[felix]

1hole, I agree with your idea of the 35 remmie in the 336 form. I have one and it is a true dandy without doubt. But....the downside: it is too heavy and feels thataway most especially when carrying for any length of time. Going to a spot and then sitting around, then OK, that's the gun to have (for fun or quick kill). If sporting around a shooting hole back and forth looking for shots like beer cans, then the 32 winnie takes top choice. If the latter cannot be easily found, then back to the cowboy 30-30. If I cannot have either, my choice would be the ruger lever 44 maggie, which in my opinion has the very best lever mechanics bar none. ... felix

[bglz42]

Main reason to own one? Eight grains of Red Dot and a 180gr plain base boolit! Quite possibly the most pleasant centerfire load known to man... or at least to me!:-D

[6pt-sika]

I was never what you would call a 30-30 person . Or a 30 cal person for that matter . Never owned a 30-30 until I was in my late 30's .

Now however I own nine Marlin 30-30's in variouse configuration's and a Winchester 1894TD that is also 30-30 (circa 1905) .

But I also own three Marlin 32 Specials in variouse models that I prefer over the 30-30 .

Also have a pair of Marlin's in 38-55 that I prefer slightly over the 32 Special's .

However my favourite over all the above is my Marlin 1893 of 1906 vintage in 32-40 caliber .

I shoot cast exclusively in the 32-40 , 38-55's and 32 Specials . Also shoot cast in seven of the 30-30's . And of those seven 30-30's three or four are micro groove rifled . Strangely they seem to do just fine with cast projectiles [smilie=1:

[6pt-sika]

As far as the 35 REM is concerned I have three of those . All Marlin's , of course [smilie=1:


My first is a 336SC that was made in 1952 and has ballard rifling . I shoot cast only in this rifle .

My second is the 336D . For those that aren't familiar this is the Marlin Guide Gun in 35 REM . So far I've only shot jacketed in this rifle . However I may try Ranch Dog's bullets in this one .

My latest Marlin 35 is the new 336XLR . My plan for this one is jacketed exclusively . And this coming year I plan to shoot only the Hornady Leverevolution ammo in it until it takes a VA whitetail . And after that who knows what jacketed bullet I might run thru it :drinks:

[Todd N.]

1hole,

I understand what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree with you.

Yes, the .35 Rem is a nice round, but to me it is a red-headed stepchild- it does nothing that other calibers won't do, and what it does can be accomplished by other calibers easier.
This does not express any dislike for the .35 Remington. In fact, I own 3 Remington Model 8 rifles in this caliber. It is a fine round. Point of fact is that I have found more utility in other cartridges, rather than the .35.
The .32 Specials that I have continue to please me.
And, truth be told, the .444 Marlin cartridge in the 336 is a far more versatile combo. Felix was right about the 336 being heavy- my Win 94's and 1894's are far more handy and ergonomic. If I am going to carry a heavy, awkward rifle, at least I will carry one that is capable of everything I might encounter on that outing.
And one other thing...
Go back and reread my original post. I HAVE a 336.

[Marlin Junky]

If I am going to carry a heavy, awkward rifle, at least I will carry one that is capable of everything I might encounter on that outing.

Todd,

My 336A in .35 Remington with its 24" barrel weighs less than my 444P with its 18.5" barrel. The .35 will easily push a 250 grain boolit at 2100 fps while the 444P will reach 2050 fps with a much less aerodynamic and more costly 300 grain boolit (don't forget to factor in the cost of gas checks). Sure I'd feel more comfortable in grizzly country with the heavier .444 but I wouldn't turn tail and run with the .35 in my hands... even if it only had a 20" barrel (actually, if I was roaming grizzly country I'd leave the .444 at home and opt for at least a .45-70 with 400+ grain boolits). Sure, I could put the .444's barrel on a lathe and turn it down so it would weigh less than the .35 but the .444 kicks enough with a 300 grain boolit at 2000 fps to be not all that much fun to shoot even at its present weight.

Can a 30-30 or 32Spl shoot 250 grain boolits into 1.5 MOA at 2100 fps MV?

MJ

[Todd N.]

Can a 30-30 or 32Spl shoot 250 grain boolits into 1.5 MOA at 2100 fps MV?

MJ

MJ,

You're right. But what's the point? I have rifles in .35 Rem. I'm not debating the merits of that caliber- no need to. It's a good one!
But I guess I'm a lucky one. I'm healthy and fit, and I don't notice the difference of 1 pound more, or less in gun weight.
I am more interested in having a piece of equipment that will do the job, even if the job turns out to be more than it was originally thought to be.
Huh?
In these mountains where I live, I could hunt whitetails with a .22 centerfire if I chose. Think about it... .22 Hornet in a nice light rifle, or a Mini-14 with a synthetic stock to save weight. Easy packin' rifle if ever there was one.
But this time of year one can readily encounter mountain lions or bear. Granted, we are not talking THE GREAT BEARS OF THE NORTH (ha ha), but they are bears, and they don't like to be stopped by very small calibers. Nor do mountain lions.
Instead, I use a larger caliber with a heavier bullet to give me insurance. And it is truly a matter of progression: my .270 works good all the time, no matter the prey. But my .338-'06 is more medicine, as is my .444, and so on.
In my neck of the woods, you don't go hiking with only a .22 pistol- you might not come home!
But I digress too far-
I am trying to learn the merits of the .30-30. You guys are giving me a wealth of information, some of which it would take me years to figure out. Thank you.

[Todd N.]

... but the .444 kicks enough with a 300 grain boolit at 2000 fps to be not all that much fun to shoot even at its present weight.




That my friend, is a matter of opinion!
:mrgreen:

[lovedogs]

Todd... your Orygun lions must be different than most. All of the lions on this continent that I've known or known of others to take weren't at all tough to kill with small calibers. Mountain lions and bobcats are all easy to kill with a well-placed shot from almost anything. But they can all be very tenacious when hit in the wrong spot with anything. I've known a couple of professional lion hunters who only used .22 and .357 pistols. Usually a cat will tree fairly soon as they aren't long-distance runners and are fairly easy to shoot in the head when so cornered. Smaller calibers are easier to pack, easier to shoot, and have all the power needed for head shots. On the other hand, their lung area is small and hard to hit if they are on the move. So if you're trying to shoot them under that condition you may want more power to really stop them quickly. The main thing with any cat is shot placement. And on this continent caliber is pretty much irrelevent given proper hunting methods.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,

You're right. But what's the point?

What's the point? Isn't this discussion with respect to the merits of leverguns? Was the .35 Remington brought up in discussion? Did you not say, "...the .35 Rem is a nice round, but to me it is a red-headed stepchild- it does nothing that other calibers won't do..."

You're welcome to take everything I say with a grain of salt but don't ever ask me what's the point again. If I'm taking time out of my day to post something on this board, there's a point to it.

MJ

[Todd N.]

MJ,
It looks as though I misspoke. My comment was such to bring us back to the purpose of this thread- the putative merits of the .30-30. In no way did I intend to impugn you or your opinions. In fact, I highly value your input and look forward to many more exchanges.
Please accept my apology.

Todd

[Todd N.]

Lovedogs
Obviously you've not seen the Western rainforests. Ever see the movie " Predator" ? That is what our Coast Range, and a good part of The Cascades, is like. You do not run dogs here- they would be swallowed up by the ferns and moss.
If you and your pro hunters want to take a stab at cats in our forests, armed only with a .22, come on! I'll put you up and feed you!
Somehow, going after a 300-400 pound predator, in HIS neighborhood, armed with a .22 just doesn't seem prudent.
IIRC, there was film on the Outdoor Life site about a Park Ranger(?) who killed a griz that was being relocated. Bear went wild, Ranger used a .357 Mag cause it was what he was issued. Smart? No. Effective? Yes.
But you will never find knowledgable hunters and outdoorsmen going into griz country thinking," My .357 is plenty to handle a griz!"

[45nut]

What area of Oregon do you live Todd?

[Todd N.]

45Nut,

Near Lincoln City. You?

[45nut]

Over in Central Ore. I do have a friend that works at the Marine Science Center in Newport.

[Nrut]

MJ...thanks for that data you posted in post #16....I just casted up a bunch of boolits from group buy mold 311407....two more question...what is your favorite lube or does it make that much differance and your BHN?....
thanks...

[jh45gun]

MJ...thanks for that data you posted in post #16....I just casted up a bunch of boolits from group buy mold 311407....two more question...what is your favorite lube or does it make that much differance and your BHN?....
thanks...

NRUT, For what it is worth, I am casting bullets with an origional Ideal Mould of that number and I am using straight WW air cooled and sized to .309 and gas checked with a Lee sizer. I am tumble lubing them using Lee Liquid Alox and haveing good success with that combination.

[Marlin Junky]

MJ...thanks for that data you posted in post #16....I just casted up a bunch of boolits from group buy mold 311407....two more question...what is your favorite lube or does it make that much differance and your BHN?....
thanks...

Currently I'm using a homemade lube that turned out very slick but is producing good results on paper and over the chronograph with 16.5 grains of WC-820 and 33 grains of Special Ball (the latter is like H380). This lube is a combination of mineral oil, castor oil and extra light olive oil in equal parts blended with a couple pounds of beeswax and a few tablespoons of anhydrous lanolin after about a half ounce of grated ivory is melted thoroughly in the oil mixture at about 300F.

The BHN I strive for is between 13 and 14 which is pretty much pure clip-on wheel weights with about 1% tin added.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

MJ,
It looks as though I misspoke. My comment was such to bring us back to the purpose of this thread- the putative merits of the .30-30. In no way did I intend to impugn you or your opinions. In fact, I highly value your input and look forward to many more exchanges.
Please accept my apology.

Todd

Thank you Todd... no harm done.

MJ

[felix]

The lube, Todd, is a felix lube variant. There is lots to read about it on this board. ... felix

[Nrut]

Thanks MJ and jh45gun........Looks like I should see if I can find the componets for Felix lube next time I go to town...

[Marlin Junky]

The most difficult ingredient to find may be (depending on where you live) the anhydrous lanolin. Fortunately one doesn't need a lot of this ingredient and it can be found in places that cater to livestock, tanneries and perhaps even an occasional pharmacy can get it for you at a reasonable price. The anhydrous lanolin is an essential ingredient because it makes the lube adhere to boolits due to its sticky nature and gives the lube a similar texture to the 50/50 beeswax/Alox#whatever NRA formula.

You don't need 3 oils but the reason I added extra light olive oil to the blend was to raise the smoking temperature... which I beleive it did somewhat and therefore makes it easier to melt the grated ivory soap. The olive oil also noticeably thinned out the melted lube so it pan lubed more efficiently. I've been meaning to try jobaba oil ala ".357 Maximum's" suggestion for quite some time now but haven't had the chance to make any yet.

MJ

P.S. If you can't find a.lanolin locally maybe this'll help:

http://www.google.com/search?q=anhydrous+lanolin&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[corvette8n]

8-10 gr of Unique in any 30-30 is a fun plinking gun.
I started with a Marlin 336 in 30-30 and now have:

2-Marlin 336's , 1 microgrove 1 ballard(1950's)
2 Win 94's 1-pre 64 and 1 post 64
1 Win 94 pre-64 in .32WS

I took my son and future son-in-law to the range the other day and we
fired off over 100 rounds of 30-30, 110 rounds of .223 and 40 rounds of 45-70.

[lovedogs]

Todd... I understand where you are coming from on hunting where you hunt. I was only addressing killing a cat. I was not referring to all the other factors. I have seen your country and understand hunting it would be different than where I am. But a cat is still easily killed with almost anything if shot in the head. In your area, however, as you've mentioned, they aren't treed and shot. If you only have fleeting shots at moving cats I understand the need for something that will work better. As for other beasties, one should be better armed. The forest in my area has cats and small black bears. I always have my dog along and realize dogs antagonize both species. Shooting a treed cat I'd have no problem using a .22. But having to defend ones self and a dog against an attack is a different situation. And the possibility of running into a bruin would dictate more fire power, as well.

So my stand is this: If you're hunting cats in a way they'd be treed almost anything will work. But in other situations concerning cats, bears, or any other critters who bite back I always take more armament. My typical strolling-through-the -woods guns are both .44 mags. One is a Ruger BH and the other is a Marlin Cowboy, also a .44. Both are stoked with cast bullets of about 240 gr.

I didn't mean to offend or discount in any way your experiences with hunting lions or bears or whatever. Like I said, I was only addressing the fact that lions are easily killed with almost anything. Your point (well understood) is that how and where they are hunted makes a difference. Are we cool now?