"DRT" maybe better said, down right there

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yes, I also have used the, "DRT" meaning Dead Right There, but thinking about the situation, and having taken a fair amount of game, the latest as recently as a big cow elk yesterday morning, I think it would be better to mean, DOWN Right There.

If you want some good intertainment or possibly better said, good education, pick up a video showing many critters being harvested. The educational part being the watching of the reaction of many critters, all taken with very fatal hits.

You will see these critters do crazy things, from just falling over never move again, to taking great leaps into the air, to running away at top speed like it was a clean miss.

In short, every critter was Dead Right There, even though they may or may not have been Down Right There.

It really may not even matter what the caliber or boolit was, which is not say such things do not have an effect or importance.

I have seen a number of critters drop on the spot with a 243, but have also seen them run over a hundred yards. All in reality Dead Right There.

Yesterday, I put a 465gr WFN boolit through a large cow elk - muzzle velocity in the 1600 - 1700fps range and distance about 100yds or a touch more.

She flinched, so I knew she was hit. However, she took off up hill at a dead run (pun intended) for about 50 yards, then went cross hill still at a run for about an equal distance, then turned down hill still running, returning to 30 feet or so of where the run started, before falling.

Yet, she was very dead right there but not down right there.

The boolit entered high and forward in the near shoulder - no bone broken - scrambled the lungs, it appeared to have taken out the large artery that lays below the spine, then exited through the ribs about mid way back on the far side.

Clearly dead on her feet or, Dead Right There, but not down right there.

I have read some posters comments stating that they do not like the "DRT" meaning Dead Right There, and I can really see their point as I look at it in light of this recent event.

Maybe some of you word smiths need to coin a couple of new terms, which when used would clearly make know just what happened!

Was the critter Dead Right There, or was it Down Right There?

Us Ol"Coots are easily cornfused. :groner:

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[geargnasher]

Well, you certainly make a valid and clear point, but I think the semantics of either DRT is really the same. When a person says "DRT", it usually means the animal basically dropped in it's tracks when shot and expired on the spot, not that it took a fatal hit and ran a hundred yards.

Gear

[RugerFan]

...When a person says "DRT", it usually means the animal basically dropped in it's tracks when shot and expired on the spot, not that it took a fatal hit and ran a hundred yards.

Gear

Exactly

[Jim]

Well, you certainly make a valid and clear point, but I think the semantics of either DRT is really the same. When a person says "DRT", it usually means the animal basically dropped in it's tracks when shot and expired on the spot, not that it took a fatal hit and ran a hundred yards.

Gear

That's what they mean where I come from and where I am now. Some o' them boys call it a "bang flop" shot. The gun bangs and the animal flops.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Good thing you smart fellers are close by, as at times us Ol'Coot's need all the help we can get!

CDOC

[Blammer]

well I don't "harvest" as I'm not a farmer, I kill my quarry as I'm a hunter.

if you want to mix words, I'm just sayin....

[geargnasher]

Years ago in the state-mandated, three-day "hunter education" course I took the instructor kept using the word "harvest". It conjured an image in my mind of running through a field of whitetails with a combine. "Killing" is a valid word at my house, be it stalking and killing food or killing and disposing of pesky and damaging varmints.

Just my two pennies, for what it's worth.

Gear

[phonejack]

+1 for geargnasher

[clintsfolly]

Just luv a Bang Flop in the morning!!! Clint

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I caught an Axis doe one time right thru the heart at about 180yards with a 22-250. She was standing next to a fence giving me a perfect broad side shot. As soon as I hit her she turned tail and jumped the fence, landed with a stumble, ran about 15yards and then collapsed.

[10 ga]

If they go somewhere else then they ain't DRT. They're dead someother place! Dittos for geargnasher " ". "Harvest" is for domestic animals and deer behind fences, not for wild animals. I could so go off on this but........ 10 ga

[Leslie Sapp]

This is why I smile when people talk about "handgun stopping power". I've killed a couple of hundred head of deer and hogs with both rifles and shotguns, and most of them, unless hit in the central nervous system, stayed on their feet long enough to run a few yards at least.

From this, I've concluded that if I ever find myself in a gunfight, I'd want a least (as someone else posted recently in another forum) a "belt fed 12 gauge":Fire:

[KYCaster]

well I don't "harvest" as I'm not a farmer, I kill my quarry as I'm a hunter.

if you want to mix words, I'm just sayin....




"Harvest" is a euphemism adopted by naive hunters who mistakenly think that the anti-hunting crowd will be more receptive to the concept if we could just make it sound less lethal. It doesn't work.....they still want to ban hunting, no matter what you call it, so why bother trying to sugar coat it?

Most of you guys reading this have more experience with "big game" than I do, so take this for what it's worth......

DRT (or Bang-Flop if you prefer) is pretty much a matter of luck. The very first deer I shot was a small doe. A one ounce 12ga. slug entered between the first and second rib on the left side and broke the third rib on the right side leaving a two inch exit wound......bang-flop........[smilie=w:......

I climbed down out of the tree stand and walked the 30 yds. to where she fell and found her still trying to get up. I could see the entrance wound and the blood-n-guts splattered on the brush behind her so I knew it was a lethal shot, but not wanting to see an animal suffer, I decided a "coup de gras" was in order.....so I shot her in the head. Then I watched her flounder around with her jaw and tongue shot off.

When I field dressed her I found about three inches of the esophagus and a bit more of the colon intact and everything between was liquid. I'm not exaggerating, there wasn't a recognizable piece of an organ left inside her.

I gagged several times....came very close to leaving and going home, never to hunt again. Finally decided to suck it up and finish what I started. Dragged her down to the creek and half a roll of paper towels later had her and myself fairly presentable. She turned out to be very tasty.

Since then I've tried head/neck shots on two other occasions and was sorely disappointed both times.

I don't, however, seem to have any problem hitting the heart, and on almost every occasion that I've managed to put a shot through the heart, the deer bolted in the direction it was facing in a dead run until it expired.

Two of these ran into the nearest tree before I was able to fire a second shot. Three have received a second shot as they passed my stand on their death run, but none of those second shots appeared to have any effect on the time it took for them to expire.

The one exception to my experience with heart shots was my "One Point Buck". On the left side it had a 10 inch spike and on the right side a stub broken off about 1 1/2 inch above the skull. I watched him come up a trail till he was so close I thought he could hear my heart beating. He stopped to spar with a little sumac bush and when he raised his head I put the boolit in front of the left leg, through the heart and out behind the last rib on the right.....DRT......or not!

If he had fallen to the right, I could have driven the truck right to where he dropped, but he fell to the left and slid about 150 ft. down the hill and stopped against a tree. I couldn't get him field dressed where he lay so we slid another 50 ft. down to the creek bottom. I had to get help dragging that one out.

My point is.....I don't care what kind of shot you prefer, you can't guarantee an instant kill. No way! No how!

Head shot? It's either a clean kill or a miss, right?........No! A deer without a jaw can go a long way, won't leave much of a blood trail, won't die from shock or trauma or blood loss, but will die a lingering death from starvation. A shot to the brain doesn't guarantee an instant kill. I've watched head shot animals go berserk until they bleed out, which may take quite some time. The violent spasms from the scrambled nerve signals make an accurate finishing shot impossible.

A hit in the neck is a dead deer, right?......Wrong!!! If you don't sever the spine or one of the major arteries then you have a wounded deer that may not leave much of a blood trail. There's a lot of muscle in the neck that can absorb quite a bit of energy without being immediately fatal. Even a shot that severs the spine and results in Drop Right There doesn't necessarily mean an instant kill. The animal will very likely remain conscious until it expires from loss of blood. A shot to the spine behind the front legs?....Don't even go there! Whether it's squirrel, groundhog, deer, skunk or feral cat, I don't want to see an animal suffer like that.

The best you can hope for is death from loss of blood as quickly as possible, and that can take from five to fifteen seconds....and possibly more as I learned on my first deer. As far as I'm concerned, that means a shot through the heart or very far forward through the lungs to sever the largest arteries possible....and two holes, one in, one out. If conditions make a tracking job difficult then break at least one front leg.

If you can't do that, then pass up the shot and wait for a better one.

Ummm........sorry for the rant.........:oops:

It's just something I feel very strongly about.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming. [smilie=s:

Jerry

[EMC45]

Good points Jerry. The first deer I shot in my life (07) was with my Westinghouse M91 Mosin with a 150gr. Speer Hot Cor sent on it's way with 52gr. IMR 4350. The deer literally fell over dead. Did not kick, did not gasp. NOTHING. None of the rest have been that easy. Know your shots. The deer I speak of was shot right behind the "elbow knuckle" of the front leg. Cut a nice groove through the top of the heart.

[MBTcustom]

Shot one in the head right behind the ear with the equivalent of a down loaded 22 hornet. The deer lunged in the direction it was facing and landed in a pile. (not DRT)
Year before last, I shot a deer 10 yards away with a muzzle loader. shot her right in the neck as she was stepping around a small sapling. When the smoke cleared, she was laying where I had shot her, she just crumpled. (definitely DRT) By the way, that was with a Lee 230RN TL 45 pistol boolit, (the six cavity style) shot with a sabot.

In contrast, I blasted a buck several years ago with a 300winmag at 30 yards. 3200FPS of raw power of which he probably got about 3/4 of the benefit of, and the deer still ran 30 yards before slamming into a tree and breaking off both horns. You aint seen dead till you see 300magnum dead! The winmag turned that deer into a purple milkshake on the hoof. Both lungs were gelatin, the heart was in three pieces, the liver was ruptured beyond recognition, and the stomach was busted. The only organs that were unaffected by the blast where those that resided on the outside of his body (ie, he died with dignity), but he still ran until he encountered an obstruction.
Go figure.

[EMC45]

Shot one in the head right behind the ear with the equivalent of a down loaded 22 hornet. The deer lunged in the direction it was facing and landed in a pile. (not DRT)
Year before last, I shot a deer 10 yards away with a muzzle loader. shot her right in the neck as she was stepping around a small sapling. When the smoke cleared, she was laying where I had shot her, she just crumpled. (definitely DRT) By the way, that was with a Lee 230RN TL 45 pistol boolit, (the six cavity style) shot with a sabot.

In contrast, I blasted a buck several years ago with a 300winmag at 30 yards. 3200FPS of raw power of which he probably got about 3/4 of the benefit of, and the deer still ran 30 yards before slamming into a tree and breaking off both horns. You aint seen dead till you see 300magnum dead! The winmag turned that deer into a purple milkshake on the hoof. Both lungs were gelatin, the heart was in three pieces, the liver was ruptured beyond recognition, and the stomach was busted. The only organs that were unaffected by the blast where those that resided on the outside of his body (ie, he died with dignity), but he still ran until he encountered an obstruction.
Go figure.



That made me laugh.

[Dorado]

My experience with deer have been fairly varied. My first deer was taken with a 410 slug. It dropped didn't kick, thrash, or run. My second one was a large doe. She was facing me head on coming down a trail. I took aim center of her chest but she jumped as I pulled the trigger. The bullet literally gutted her. She took off dragging her insides behind her without much of blood trail. She jumped a fence and got hit by a truck.
I've had a couple of clean kills but the one that sticks out the most was while I was hog hunting a few weeks after deer season. I came up on a skin and bone buck. Had a decent rack still, but was very emaciated. I was about 200 yards off and couldn't see it that clearly so I lined my scope up on it and saw that it was missing most of it's jaw. Someone tried a head shot but missed only hitting the jaw. The deer was starving to death, So I took a shot and put it out of its misery. I called the Game warden afterwards and he came out to check on it.

[303Guy]

I'm not a head shot person myself. I've come across rabbits with holes in their ears! And I know exactly who made them. I'm working on him. He used to harvest rabbits for restaurants and they only took head shot ones. That's where he learned that bad habit. [smilie=1:

I once shot a rabbit that had already taken a gut shot and had run off. It showed no sign of distress when I saw it which was quite a few minutes after the gut shot. When I fired it took off at full tilt up hill then expired and rolled all the way down again. I had heart shot it.

Some nights the rabbits will just DRT while other nights they will run and jump around before expiring. Depends on the moon and the weather. When they are frisky they don't die easily.

[ammohead]

I use the term "harvesting" when it is so dang easy that "hunting" just doesn't seem right. Does off of a alfalfa field. Antelope cooling themselves beneath a pivot line, cow elk standing in the middle of a two rut road, stuff like that.

It is all about filling the larder. Same as a good canning session with veggies from the garden, and about as easy pickens!

Now, drawing an antelope tag for the Sheldon, or Mulie bucks in the Egan range late, or a bugle tag for Table Mt that's "hunting"!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep, I have harvested a white tail and my son another at "Hatley's meat market."

The game department called me to say that some local land owners were over run with deer and needed some help.

Called Mrs. Hatley and she said come on out, the only rule was I had to park in her yard and not walk in from some where else or park on the road.

I did so and about day light walked behind her barn and "harvested" a much bigger then average doe while standing next to the building.

That critter took a side to side from the 243 was Down AND Dead right there. "D&DRT."

Couple days later, my son also harvested a doe at Hatley's, but this time on the hill side across the road from the house. We had seen the deer from the farm yard.

Again with a .243 and basicly Dead but not Down right there. This was one of the critters that took the big leap and then ran a bit.

We were all happy, Mrs. Hatley because my son and I helped out her really big deer problem, and my family because we now had two deer "harvested" for the freezer.

To call the trip to "Hatley's Meat Market" a hunt even thought we did kill the deer in the harvesting process, would be a streach!

I'll allow that my recent cow elk was "killed" on a "Hunt" as there were 4 before day light drives to the location and about a 2 + hour hunt out and back to the rig. And the elk was "killed" on my way back to the rig.

Because of the rapidly rising temps this time of the year, Hunts needed to be early and short.

However, Hunt or Harvest, both of my deer last Fall would need to be termed a harvest.

But, just to keep things clear, both those deer were Down and Dead Right There. Truely, "D&DRT." :bigsmyl2::kidding::bigsmyl2:

CDOC

[MBTcustom]

While I agree with KYcaster, and fully understand your viewpoint (its akin to the whole "assult rifle" nomenclature)
I kind of hold with these ither fellers.
The differance for me is this:
If I go out after one particularly awesome specimen that I saw at another time and was impressed by its size, or other atributes, then that is hunting because I am passing by lesser animals to find the one I am after.
If I go to the woods and clime a tree, fully prepared to bag the first deer that looks toothsome enough for "fridge de la Malcolm" then that is a harvest kill.
The two are easily separated by asking yourself if you are after a specific deer.
In times past, the deer herd was so scarce, that any deer could be considered a "hunt". These days, if you have a good area, it can feel like a really fun way of going to the grocery store, ie harvest.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

You might (?) have a point there Goodsteel.

However, I am and always have been first and foremost a meat hunter.

That is why I buy my tag, and why I am in the woods/field, for meat.

Now. I won't pass up a big wall hanger, and surely wouldn't mind taking a critter like the big bull I saw last Monday, but anterless is what I was hunting for and that is what I will begin to cut up come Monday.

CDOC

[303Guy]

I tend to use the terms hunting and shooting. Shooting being another way of saying 'harvesting'. Although 'harvesting' indicates for eating. Shooting could mean 'pest control'. Hunting on the other hand would usually mean coming home empty handed.:wink:

[MBTcustom]

:goodpost:Touche' !!!

[Adam10mm]

well I don't "harvest" as I'm not a farmer, I kill my quarry as I'm a hunter.

if you want to mix words, I'm just sayin....
Been hearing that term used instead of kill for a few years now, mostly in the trapping world where they call themselves "fur harvesters". It's also been added to the definition. I don't know why, but it's there.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/harvest

n.
1. The act or process of gathering a crop.
2.
a. The crop that ripens or is gathered in a season.
b. The amount or measure of the crop gathered in a season.
c. The time or season of such gathering.
3. The result or consequence of an activity.
v. har·vest·ed, har·vest·ing, har·vests
v.tr.
1.
a. To gather (a crop).
b. To take or kill (fish or deer, for example) for food, sport, or population control.
c. To extract from a culture or a living or recently deceased body, especially for transplantation: harvested bone marrow.
2. To gather a crop from.
3. To receive (the benefits or consequences of an action). See Synonyms at reap.
v.intr.
To gather a crop.

[NSP64]

I agree with most here,
I shoot to fill the freezer, some times I have to 'hunt' some times they come to me. I 'harvest' them by killing them. I started deer hunting using a compound bow. Always have to track them.
Maybe all hunters should start out with bows, teaches you patience, and I always go for the boiler room shots.

Very first deer I took , was a through and through with an arrow right at dark.
waited 30 minutes, by then its full dark.
Start tracking, go up hill , across hill, down hill.
I find the deer, look around.
He ran about 150 yrds total comming up 20 yrds short of where he started.

[MBTcustom]

See? another 20yards and it would have been DRT. With a bow no less!
"yep fellers, there he was. I pulled my bow and let fly my special triple bladed, lung grater, ultra-artery slasher, bone buster broadhead. (burrrrp) That deer didn't make it 20 yards before he piled up dead as a hammer."
That's a funny story right there for sure!!!

[303Guy]

I watched a fair sized pig being shot with a bow on youtube and it was astounding how effective that arrow was! I don't know what the penetration was but most of the arrow was on the impact side. It wasn't quite a DRT but pretty close. It did stagger around for a few seconds but that was all. I don't think it moved 15yds in total. Awesome!