? Issue Side Arm USN Pilot WW II

[square butte]

My father is not alive to ask - So perhaps someone here may have the answer, or know where to find it. What side arm - if any - would a WW II USN Pilot of PB2Y3 Consolidated Coronados (4 engine sea plane) and PBM3 Martin Mariners (2 engine sea plane) have been issued ??- 1941-45 Pacific and Atlantic Theatre - Naval Air Transport Service. (Three types of Sea Plane Squadrons in WW II - Air Sea Rescue - Patrol Bombing - Naval Air Transport) My first inclination would be either S & W victorty model, or none. What started this was that a friend of mine who's father worked on a sea plane tender in WW II ( USS Pine Island ) brought home a S & W (Navy marked) Victory that a PBM Martin Mariner Pilot had left behind while having engines changed out on his bird. Still in his family's possesion. Always assumed my Father had not been issued a side arm - But after hearing my friends father's story, now my curiosity has the better of me. Can anyone help out here with this question - Or should I call down to Pensacola Naval Air Station?

[bob208]

most pilots i have talked to have said the .38. a lot of pictures of .38's also. afterall they were considered second line. no dis respect to any of them.

[dmize]

I have done a lot of studying in my life on WWII and most of it on the air war. I have always been under the impression that all pilots were issued a .38,at least thats all I have seen pictures of, even into Viet Nam pilots were issued S&W .38's. I think its because the cockpits were cramped and they were carrying enough "baggabe" to begin with
The only circumstance I am aware of contradicting that statement was first hand from a friend that crewed a B-17 in Europe. He said he was issued a WWI 1911. I remember this because he said it was strapped to his paracute. He was a top turret gunner and it was so tight he couldnt man the guns with the chute on. He also said that Tommy Guns were commonly available but the planes were too cramped to bring them along. He said that this was because the likelyhood of being shot down over enemy territory was extremely high

[looseprojectile]

and crew almost always were issued the lighter S&W 38 special with a shoulder holster and very puny FMJ ammo. I have also issued a couple of cases of the highly valued Marbles pilots knives. Those knives are worth more than the guns.
I was aviation ordnance in the mid to late fifties and issued them to aviators in the squadrons I was in.
I have seen shoulder holsters for the 45 but they were not used by pilots and crews. The 45 and belt holster was issued to men standing watch almost universally except in situations where guards on ship were issued M1 Garands for more security and firepower.
Somewhere in my junk I have a photo of myself on watch with an M1 on the USS Lexington in 1959 when anchored in Hong Kong.


Life is good

[Moonie]

Had an uncle that was a Helo CSAR pilot in the Navy during Vietnam, 4 tours, he carried a 1911. His son still has it to this day.

[Hardcast416taylor]

You had me wondering so I called an old friend of mine that had an MOS of a "wrench bender on a snake" (mechanic/groundcrewman on Huey Cobra). He said he saw mostly .38`s and a few .357 mag. revolvers being worn by aircrewmen. A few .45`s now and then along with an occansional M-16 rifle or carbine rode in the choppers. When he first got there he said M-1 carbines were still commonly seen. This was mid `60`s.Robert

[dmize]

On the helicopters I have read several references to 45's being carried. Specific reference to them being slid in front below the "chicken plate" and between the legs for added protection to the "jewels".

[Tom-ADC]

S&W model 10's in 38 special, was our standard carry, we also carried 6 rounds of 38 tracer ammo.

[Mk42gunner]

WWII-- It probably depended on what was available when the unit was fitted out, with a .38 being the norm.

The only ship I was on that had a flight deck and actually carried a Navy Helo was the USS Downes, a Knox class FF. We had 1911-A1's for ship's company and 4 S&W Model 10's for Pilots. We never issued the Pilots .38's the whole 54 weeks I was attached to the ship (1990-91).

Robert

[MtGun44]

My father was a Navy pilot in WW2 and was issued a S&W 'Victory Model' which is a sandblast
finish Model 10 or M&P in .38 Spl. The ammo issued was all FMJ tracers, primarily intended
as a signalling device, or shark protection. Most were carried in a single loop, over the head
shoulder holster.

Unfortunately, his was stolen some years ago, but I shot it and handled it several times
as a young man.

Bill

[rintinglen]

38 Special M&P victory Model Pistols were pretty much standard Naval issue, although a great many 1911's saw service by pilots as well. The best explanations as to why that I have heard are that there were not enough 1911s to go around, the 38 had tracer/flare rounds available for signaling that would not funtion in a semi-auto, and that you didn't want a gun that spewed little metal cylinders around in the plane if perchance you found yourself having to shoot a sake-crazed samurai while seated in the cockpit.

[David LaPell]

I used to have a US issue should holster that was for a pilot and held a 4-inch Smith & Wesson Victory Model.

[Multigunner]

I've read accounts of U S pilots fighting the Japanese carrying the .45, but not sure if these were Naval Aviators.

They began issuing the alloy frame .38 pistols post WW2 due to a high incidence of aircrew suffering broken ribs when they bailed out. The sudden shock of the chute opening slaming the holstered handgun against the rib cage. The old 1911 was pretty heavy, so it is likely to have busted a few ribs, though its flatter shape would have distributed the impact more evenly than the revolver with its cylinder.

The Victory Model was available in large quantity due to S&W having made a deal with the British to supply them with .38 S&W chambered revolvers to cover the expenses incurred when S&W failed to complete a contract for a 9mm Carbine for the British. The Webley .380 cartridge will fit the .38 S&W chamber. Some of the .38 S&W chambered revolvers have barrels marked as .38 Special.
S&W had a large number of frames and parts due to having over produced due to expectations of large contracts to supply new revolvers to police departments which never materialized when funds became scarce. The various police departments having to pinch pennies and make do with the revolvers already on hand no matter how worn.
When the U S entered the war S&W had plenty of parts and production lines were already at work.

The Victory model was a good choice since its much easier to learn to shoot a .38 revolver with decent accuracy than to learn to shoot a 1911. Also safer, as the Navy had a rash of ADs involving young officers who were not that familar with autoloaders, plus the worn condition of many of the 1911 pistols in service.

[square butte]

Thanks for the response men. It's pretty clear that most likely a S & W .38 Victory was the issued sidearm in my dad's case. Interesting Question - Were there ever Naval Aviators in theatre that were not issued side arms? Where is this all leading? Long story short - Looks like a new quest. Probably gonna have to find myself a Navy issue S & W Victory model in honor and memory of my Father and his service. Let the search begin.

[smkummer]

Some Colt commando 38 were also issued. I have one that is stamped on the butt "USAAF 56XX"

[Artful]

I have a friend that has his issue S&W revolver in 38 S&W (not special) he was in Europe in B24's

[catboat]

[QUOTE= What started this was that a friend of mine who's father worked on a sea plane tender in WW II USS Pine Island... [/QUOTE]

An aside to the original post. There was an article in a "recent" (last 10 years???) GUN DIGEST about a Colt semi auto (32 acp??) that was used by multiple family generations in military service. The father used it while in the US Navy, serving on the USS Pine Island. The son used the pistol in Viet Nam. The article had a picture of the USS Pine Island.

Maybe someone with a stack of Gun Digests at hand can find the volume and page number for your reference/files. It would be interesting if your friend's father knew the man who was the Colt's owner in the article (there was a WWII vintage picture of him in the article, with his name-don't remember that info.)

For what it is worth.

[beagle]

Normally .38s were issued to Army helicopter pilots from my experience during two tours in VN. All S & W that I saw. Bootleg M1911A1s were common and used to replace the issue "groin protector" ceramic armor plate pieces that were issued. Lot of different weapons showed up there and the "sterilized" Browning High Powers issued to Special Forces were highly sought after and ran about $100 on the unofficial black market. Swedish Ks also were popular from the same source./beagle


On the helicopters I have read several references to 45's being carried. Specific reference to them being slid in front below the "chicken plate" and between the legs for added protection to the "jewels".

[Kraschenbirn]

I did two tours as a Huey crewchief with 1st Cav and all our aircrew, both pilots and enlisted, were issued S&W M10s but many of our guys managed to acquire various "bootleg' weapons as well. (The Remington-Rand Gov't Model I carried for 22 months, today, resides on the top shelf of my office safe.) First half of '68, we worked with the Marines quite a bit and I recall seeing some of their guys carrying parkerized Colt New Service .38 Spl. marked "U.S.N."...WWII leftovers, I suspect.

Two of my uncles were Army Air Corps during WWII...the one who flew Mustangs once told me he was issued a 1911 but never carried it when he flew; said that he figured packing extra emergency rations, cigarettes, first-aid stuff, etc. would be more useful if he had to bail out over occupied territory. The other, a B-17 flight engineer, said they drew survival kits before every mission (and turned them in along with their parachutes when they got back) but were never issued any firearms other than their .50 cal Brownings.

Bill

[jh45gun]

Nothing to do with WWII but I had a friend who was in the Air Guard I remember him telling me for years they used and had to qualify with a 38 Smith until they finally got Beretta 9MMs. Not sure how long ago that was but I know they still in the guard used 38's for a long time. Maybe any one else here can verify when the Air Guard went to the 9mm's He has passed on now so I cannot verify it with him. Going at the age of 50 with a heart attack is too darn young and he was still in the guard when he passed.

[Lon246]

In 1961, as a 2nd Lt (Marine Naval Aviator), I asked about my T/O issue sidearm being a .38 instead of the .45 and was told that "when you eject and end up with one good hand you can still use the revolver".
I've never seen that issue discussed in a civilian self defense role.

[waksupi]

In 1961, as a 2nd Lt (Marine Naval Aviator), I asked about my T/O issue sidearm being a .38 instead of the .45 and was told that "when you eject and end up with one good hand you can still use the revolver".
I've never seen that issue discussed in a civilian self defense role.

That has been discussed a lot over the years, and many competitions call for weak hand operation.

[Artful]

In 1961, as a 2nd Lt (Marine Naval Aviator), I asked about my T/O issue sidearm being a .38 instead of the .45 and was told that "when you eject and end up with one good hand you can still use the revolver".
I've never seen that issue discussed in a civilian self defense role.

before I put a longer threaded barrel on my 1911 - I had purchased an extended bushing that allowed you to load it by just placing the bushing against a hard object - wall / floor / tree / rock and briskly pushing the gun into it and then pulling back quickly - one handed loading of the 1911 :bigsmyl2:

[GabbyM]

Not a Navy account.
However my mothers cousins book describes in detail B-17 bomber crews over Europe. He flew from basses in Italy which were slums compared to the England based planes. Not his words but mine. From his account crew were allowed a wide range of personal weapons. Most carried nothing as the simple act of surviving a high altitude flight in a B-17 was a hard task. Then some carried a 45 plus hand grenades and lots of ammo plus what they could sneak on. Some had personal items like a police revolver form a dead uncle. It was a personal thing. Some positions on a B-17 were very tight also. Then after all what are you going to do? Shoot your way through a thousand miles of enemy ground.

I can totally understand why most of the men didn’t worry to much over what side arm they had on board. There had to be a thousand ways to die on one of those flights. Not having a big gun in your hand wasn’t on the list.