Kinda factory.....kinda NOT factory round with cast HELP!!

[IndySteve]

There wasnt room to title this post:

"Nice rifles, WEIRD rounds, Ignorant shooter......and Cast Boolits" so adding it here. :mrgreen:

So I'm getting old. So I wanted something different but LEGAL (of course) in our SUBstandard Indiana deer hunting reg limitations for "deer hunting rifles".

So I wanted to hunt with a bolt action rifle like the big boys of my childhood I eagerly read about every chance I got. I cant afford a SXS rifle or it would be right up there LOL.

So..........I..........am making MY OWN ROUND, or rather my "smith" is........just my idea. :popcorn:

Yep.....358 win would "do it all and then some" for Indiana whitetail (minimum legal bore of .357) but NOPE......brass is too long and seems SUCH a waste to set a barrel back and trim so little off the round to fit our uh.....ahem...."legal limit" of 1.8 inch for the cartridge case, besides it would confuse the conservation officer and Id muck up trying to explain it all.

Read all the super wissum whang bang reports on the "Indiana legal" wildcats, the 358 Hoosier Deer Hunter, the 358 WSSM.......358 Indiana express....and on and on. Eh.........too much work, too much money, too afraid of those little bitty short necks in some of them........."me no like"........ugh.

So......my thoughts ran like this.

A.358 bore rifle (no custom barrel needed)
Short action (short round)
Easy brass to find and make
Parent cartridge that HOLDS SOME POWDER, that will be reduced.
As little as possible in "smith" work (cost)
A "kinda slow twist" for cast if I want and wont be "NEEDING" 250 grain boolits and 2 tons of energy for a whiteail (but I CAN go see Sis in MT.....bigger deer there.......called ELK, lol)

Yep. The 358 Winny about fits it in factory form......just too long, by a tad and as said, I wanted "different than the rest of the boys on the block".

Ive Picked My Round.......and Rifle......and they are all on the way to the smith as I type, as are the dies to "cut off", trim and 3 die set complete. (Still cheaper than "custom dies".......did I mention Im a tight wad? lol)

What is it? I'll tell ya in a sec. (bored yet? ) :twisted:

What i need from you all whom shoot cast in the big bore rifles is a little experienced info. I already "bothered" one of you main guys here then thought......hey, I wont be VERY embarrassed LOL! , so Im asking all of you.

.358 CBs......,and I'm assuming GC are the more logical, HOW FAST can one push the 190-210 grainers in a 1-16 twist without creating "ISSUES" with my bore?

Eyeballing the RCBS 35-200 and the Ranch Dog 190 grain RNFL gc for deer sized (probably a lot bigger too) and while I searched here......I just had to ask.

How fast you guys pushing these bullets? I see some listed in the 35 Whelen at speeds Im NOT sure Id try. Looks like barrel trouble to me...but as said, Im ignorant.

So.....if you would? How fast you pushing them babies and how do they perform and to what range?

I do NOT need a "long range" deer gun.......this one will be plenty long and WAY plenty big for whiteail for heavens sake.

Not sure what IN is thinking concering the "safety" of centerfires being an issue but.............??

My Model 700 Classic in 350 Remington Mag, the FIRST of the "short magnums" 1965, (1-16 twist, 22 inch) is on the way to the smith with Redding trim and loading dies. Custom reamer from PT&G. Set back, rechamber, trim dies...........all done! Form and trim brass, load and shoot.........and repeat. A "baby" 350 rem mag. 1.795 inches long.

Capacity? Guessing......eh......around 358 Win equivalent......maybe a little more. More on that later on if anyone is interested.

Brass? Anything belted, cut off and formed. (who cares if they only load 3-5 times....reportedly.......how many deer you think I can SHOOT? lol)

Velocity/Trajectory? More than Ill need for 200 yard max shots. I dont need the "fastest" but Ill have something dang close....I think.

Energy? Is the 358 Win enough for deer? LOL.....Id think. Ive never shot one but lordy Momma.

Ill probably load it DOWN more often than not LOL! If I get some unscratched ITCH to go to 300 yards, some J bullets will be around to try but 99.9 percent of my shots are under 150 yards, 80 percent under 100.

CAST boolits for it?

I DID SAY......I wanted something "different"............I think I succeeded.
[smilie=w:

God Bless
Steve

PS.........Yeah, I know, my buddy's and mine will probably be the only ones in exsistance (except the smith is building himself a full stock one) but I "named it" anyway.

NAME SWITCH.....Sorry. The "CXP2" and others are an Olin Mfg trademark. Problems or not.......wont go there.

A small note on reasoning but the / my round is the "350 JMR" and will be desinated as such from this time forth.

Regardless if you wish to recall the 350 "Junior Magnum Round".......which is fine, here locally it will be a tribute to someone we've lost but is in our hearts and mind always.

The "350 Jenny". Jenny M. Reid....(JMR)..taken from us by Cancer, May 24, 2012. Yet ANOTHER cool reason for a wildcat.......I get to name it too since not really FOR anyone else.

YOU heard it here first! "The 350 JMR" Sure wont have an issue loading the bullets way out of the case like on the parent cartridge! [smilie=l:

[Plinkster]

Sounds cool, I can run a 225gr GC boolit up to 2200 in my Whelen with hunting accuracy. I'm using a BRP design that is sadly no longer available. Sure makes the gong ring at 200!

[Bret4207]

The only caveat I would toss in is to make CERTAIN that the law allows modified cases, IOW- make sure the law doesn't say anything about the case having to remain as head stamped or anything. I think we covered this subject before and my concern was that the Game Warden might have a list of "acceptable" cartridges and no requirement to actually measure the case length of the actual round.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Indy Steve What you have done is a lot like what a small handful of guys here did. What we came up with is called the ".416 RUSSIAN EXPRESS". A standard Mosin/Nagant action re-barreled to .416 and still using the parent 54R case necked up. The velocities, trajectory and bullet energies are just short of phenomnial!!! Thus far we have had very good results with cast and paper patched bullets in the 340 gr. range. Haven`t tried any "J" bullets. The recoil is best described as a field load 20 gauge 3/4 oz. load. Your project sounds promising, good luck with it.Robert

[IndySteve]

Thanks guys. No worries on the legalities. They been building and using wildcats even before the limit was 1.8 and was 1.625.

Im having the "350 Rem Mag" removed and until I hear back from the IDNR, Ill hunt with Hornady "Belted Magnum Basic" brass formed. There isnt a head stamp at all on them, but once the local CO knows what I have.......I dont see an issue on headstamp but it IS a question I have into the state.

The BARREL will clearly state ".358x1.795". Might even use a marker to put it on the brass side LOL.


Its kind of a toss up about where the capacity will end up. I could have went with a little shorter neck, a bit of AI but velocity wasnt the real goal.

Something legal, not beat me to death, lethal on deer and a decent trajectory, not lazer beam........in a Remington 700 bolt action. My buddies will be a 673 rifle with the same done to it. (He's more nuts than I am.......believing in my idea. LOL)

Flatter trajectories would be gotten in several ways, all of which more costly and with more work involved.

I just went with a straight 350 RM neck length........set back the shoulder .375 inches and trim. Even if "only" 2200 fps is the end results.......deer wont have a chance to most the ranges I hunt.

Just a "fun project" in my later years for me to enjoy doing and using.

Thought some good cast bullets might be a good choice for it in most ranges.

God Bless and thanks gang.
Steve

[IndySteve]

You guys DO REALIZE that Ill need help getting some RCBS 35-200 GC......lol. And anything else that (at least Im not aware of) is not available in ready to load condition.

My landlady would have a cow if I she found out I was melting anything more than supper. I know she can even SPELL....... A... N... A... L!

Here I thought I got rid of all that kinda mess in my divorce!

God Bless

[Larry Gibson]

[I][.358 CBs......,and I'm assuming GC are the more logical, HOW FAST can one push the 190-210 grainers in a 1-16 twist without creating "ISSUES" with my bore?/I]

Highly recommend the RCBS 35-200-FN. I cast it soft and use it at 2150 fps in rebarreled M91 Mauser. With the 16" twist 2200 fps is easily obtained in 22-24" barrel with softer bullets and excellent accuracy. I cast soft and mildly HP the bullets with the Forster 1/8" HP tool. Deadly on deer to 200 yards (my own max limit).

Larry Gibson

[flounderman]

how much different will it be from a 35 remington? I didn't bother to get up and check the length of a 35 remington but unless it is too long it should do everything the wildcat will do and a lot cheaper.

[IndySteve]

The 35 Rem is too long. Hard to say exactly till I get some fired in the gun and tested for capacity. It will be just a tad shorter than the 35 Rem ...... but a larger case diameter so.......we'll go from there.

With the 350 RM having a case capacity of 72-73 grains, we should ......SHOULD end up with something closer to a 58-60 grain capacity. The 35 Rem is 51 grains. The 358 Win is 57.

Not sure about cheaper either. I may have went a 35 Rem or 358 Win slightly shorter (both too long in factory form), but......Id have to either cut the barrel WAY back or rebarrel. The 350 RM round is already larger than they are. It would have to be almost completely cut away.

The 35 bore rilfes in a 700 are on a mag bolt face, not the standard of the others. other than a 35 Whelen and then it's a long action. The 35 Rem is even smaller yet in bolt face than the 358 (308size) win.

With BOTH taking a different case head dia. than the 350 RM, this was the cheapest rifle/round alteration. I am not saying there ISNT one, but Ive never seen a different SHORT ACTION 35 bore rifle in a 700 in the standard bolt face diameter. Lots around but not in a 35 bore barrel.

Lots of 358 Win bolt guns around. The required efforts would have been exactly the same, with a lesser case capacity. Some would prefer the 308 based round......I simply didnt care. My priority was in one of the various Remington bolt action rifles. The same or similar to those Ive used for varminting some 4 plus decades.

One of the main objects considered was again, very little in smith work and parts. The current work is about 150 bucks including shipping. Factory chamber/barrel and factory dies just shortened with the chamber slightly rebore. I added 75 more for a reblue and remarking of the barrel but it wasnt really required..........(unless state indicates it would be). Both a shortened 35R and 35W would also require that too if needed. Neither is legal here.

In a RIFLE anyway......Pistol yes. lol

Regardless, the choice is a done deal, the work in progress. I erred here in not waiting until completed perhaps. My apologies.


God Bless

[357Mag]

IndyS -

Please ck your PMs.

Regards,
357Mag

[Nobade]

That shortened 350 Rem Mag should be a very good one. Probably better than the original since the boolit can be seated out a bit and not so deep into the case to still fit in a short action. You may actually find there isn't a lot of difference between it and a regular 350, once boolits are seated. Pick your boolit first and have Kiff make the throat on the reamer accordingly.

Another one I have pondered and wondered why it wasn't more popular there is a 35 WSSM. Seems like an easy one to make and build dies for. Probably wouldn't feed through a magazine rifle very well though, but maybe if you started with a WSSM rifle it might work.

[Bret4207]

I didn't realize the 350 was that much larger than the 358! Have you gotten a dummy round yet to see what your case will hold? As I said in my PM, if you can equal 35 Rem ballistics, you'll be fine.

[IndySteve]

That shortened 350 Rem Mag should be a very good one. Probably better than the original since the boolit can be seated out a bit and not so deep into the case to still fit in a short action. You may actually find there isn't a lot of difference between it and a regular 350, once boolits are seated. Pick your boolit first and have Kiff make the throat on the reamer accordingly.

Another one I have pondered and wondered why it wasn't more popular there is a 35 WSSM. Seems like an easy one to make and build dies for. Probably wouldn't feed through a magazine rifle very well though, but maybe if you started with a WSSM rifle it might work.

The 35 WSSM actuallyis in production ......just called a .358 WSSM or maybe the 35 Grant, or one of the versions.

With the rebated rim, the WSM group has the potential to hold a little more powder..........but not so much that I wish to go the extra of all the brass work. The 350 CXP2 is a simple push back the shoulder and trim.....shortened factory dies.
Might not be all that much LESS WORK but will definately work but .........as said, Im old. Keep IT SIMPLIER LOL>

The original short mag, the 350 Rem , belted mag and all, just has more "cool factor" to me and is just all around easier to come by for brass.......and yeah, Ill admit it...........its Remington.

All of them will have WAY more energy than needed for even long range (for here) 300 yard shots for whitetail.

Lots of truth in the bullet depth information above. That was covered with Dave when the reamer was made yet were going to be checking a couple bullet dummy rounds before we let it escape the shop.

The VERY largest I can foresee shooting is a 225 grain of my choice. Unless its cast, then Id go 250 max

Ill be on top of more accurate case capacity here very soon. Brass is here and the adjusted trim die (have I mentioned the EASE of just shortening factory dies?) will be here soon too. Wont be FIRED brass that I get first glance at but correct brass. The smith has ran some.......fairly close to specs pre reamer and agrees were in the 358 Win capacity range ...or a bit more.

The "shortened 30-06" called the 308 (lol) is reportedly appox 13 grains less in capapcity. While not the same diameter as the 350 RM by any means, its also MORE of a "shoulder set back" than what we are doing......in length anyway.

30-06 to 308 is a 2.494 - 2.015 difference.......or 0.479 shorter. We're shortening the 350 RM, 0.375 but the case IS larger in radius but the calculations will come out very very close to the same in over all volume reduction. 13 grains, give or take 1 grain I call it. Two at most?

I dont need exact specs on that. I can easily see it will be "enough" since I had no desire to build the "biggest and fastest of the Indiana Wildcats". I just wanted to build MY OWN......and one NOT specifically ONLY for Indiana. I feel the round has potential nation wide for up to med range CXP3 class animals. Named the 350 CXP2.........ONLY because that's what I INTENDED IT FOR.......no other reason.

My goals are clearly stated above, but its going to be "right up there" especially if one wanted to seat bullets out more than "normal" to gain a bit more.

It isnt going to surprise me at all to end up with a once fired brass with a 60 grain or VERY near that in h20 case capacity. 51 ish grains of powder for .86 load density ballpark area.

Middle of the road loads with decent yet not yet chosen powders and 180-200 grain bullets should easily run equivalent to a stoked up 358 Win, especially while, even though the 358 CAN be loaded up over specs......or so some have said, this case was MADE FOR those pressures.

How the "shorter fatter powder column" effects things HOPEFULLY will simulate the benchrest cartridges, made the way they are for just that reason.

I agree.......like the 308-30-06..........there isnt going to a HUGE difference in ballistics, unless I've missed something all together.

Bottom line.........and John Barsness says it best IMHO.

"We each wanted a hunting cartridge that was ours, that would work well and have that extra hint of something special. And that's the real reason most wildcat rounds are invented today."

THAT..........will be successfully reached. :smile:

I should have kept my mouth shut till done, I know........just cant LOL.

God bless
Steve

A quick glance here will clear up why I chose the 350 RM..........to some anyway? LOL

left to right.....358 Win. The 350 Rem Mag........The 35 Whelen


http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj170/Steve692/350%20CXP2/The35s.jpg

[IndySteve]

Not a photoshop intellectual?........hardly :?

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj170/Steve692/350%20CXP2/350CXP2kinda.jpg

Something ......kinda.......like this.

Cant wait!

Not so special maybe......just mine....or something.

God Bless

[Mk42gunner]

Sounds like it will work fine. The hardest part will probably be getting the short round to feed properly from the magazine.

Robert

[IndySteve]

Sounds like it will work fine. The hardest part will probably be getting the short round to feed properly from the magazine.

Robert

Not something I expect with the parent round the same diameter. Rails are set for this diameter. 3/8 inch shorter....same round, short action?

Maybe possible, but not expecting such. Ill report back though! Worst case a block in the back of the magazine like guys do for a 308 in a long action. Good point to think on though.
Thanks.

Not a "rat tat tat" shooter.....even thought of going single shot at first.

WAS going to put up a WTT post......guess I dont have enough posts yet?
Dont see the regs on that.....told ya. OLD LOL!

God Bless
Steve

[rbuck351]

It will get all the velocity you will need for cast. My 350Rem shoots 225gr Sierras at 2800 with 61gr TAC. Even with 45gr TAC and a 200gr cast I think you will get more velocity than the boolit will stand. I really believe you will have more case capacity than you can use for cast.

[IndySteve]

Thanks guys. Since totaly for me and a few locals in creation I felt I could change the name at will.

Please scroll up to see my reason...(name changed)....and my tribute, should you be interested.

GodBless
Steve

[wgr]

i did this to my 45-70

[IndySteve]

I didn't realize the 350 was that much larger than the 358! Have you gotten a dummy round yet to see what your case will hold? As I said in my PM, if you can equal 35 Rem ballistics, you'll be fine.

Still at the 'smiths...(drat) but he made up a dummy round (left) compared to the parent case, the 350 Rem Mag and fired a photo to me.

Hoping the altered dies show up by next weekend for me to work some brass and do some capacity checks. Smith says a single check with H380 puts the 350 JR capacity " a grain more than the 358 Win....or a bit more with a newly formed dummy from new brass".

Sorry about the J bullets.........his photo and I dont have any cast yet anyway.

Waiting.......STINKS. :holysheep

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj170/Steve692/350%20JR%20Cartridge/350JR.jpg

[35remington]

Given that all these cartridges will heave a bullet probably two plus miles, I cannot see the intelligence in the Indiana regulations.

What's the purpose? How are these "safer?" What's the point? It sounds like the ballistically ignorant are running the Indiana G&P. Either that, or they're lying to local officials to get the idea of "safer?" deer hunting rounds passed while hoping to give more range than a shotgun with Foster slugs.

So you can't have it both ways. Safety from rifle fire plunging out out the sky at extreme distances (which is overrated as a cause of innocent fatalities or injuries) or a more effective deer round? Which is it? Who's running the show here? The effectiveness of any possible solution is lost on me, I must confess. If long range random rifle fire is such a concern, either ban it entirely or let everything be allowed, as 2 miles really seems little different than 3 miles in terms of hazard.

Again, you can't have both. A short ranged shotgun slug isn't a long ranged bullet, and implying both can be had with the same cartridge (bullet fallout safety and increased range) is nonsensical.

IndySteve, this certainly wasn't directed at you. Just your odd regulations.

[IndySteve]

Given that all these cartridges will heave a bullet probably two plus miles, I cannot see the intelligence in the Indiana regulations.

What's the purpose? How are these "safer?" What's the point? It sounds like the ballistically ignorant are running the Indiana G&P. Either that, or they're lying to local officials to get the idea of "safer?" deer hunting rounds passed while hoping to give more range than a shotgun with Foster slugs.

So you can't have it both ways. Safety from rifle fire plunging out out the sky at extreme distances (which is overrated as a cause of innocent fatalities or injuries) or a more effective deer round? Which is it? Who's running the show here? The effectiveness of any possible solution is lost on me, I must confess. If long range random rifle fire is such a concern, either ban it entirely or let everything be allowed, as 2 miles really seems little different than 3 miles in terms of hazard.

Again, you can't have both. A short ranged shotgun slug isn't a long ranged bullet, and implying both can be had with the same cartridge (bullet fallout safety and increased range) is nonsensical.

IndySteve, this certainly wasn't directed at you. Just your odd regulations.

Never fear, I am in total agreement as is just about every person I know that hunts.

They first were allowing "handgun rounds" in rifles. AKA ...straight wall cartridges of atleast .357 bore.

Then it went to a min of .357 bullets and no longer than 1.625 brass. The "straight wall" designation disappeared here........some say it never existed and Ive never ever actually noticed it ever being mentioned in printed regulations, but I dont remember regs verbatim from a few years back, but do know that rounds no longer have any restrictions on SHAPE, only bore and length.

I think that lasted two? years......to today's regs for 2012. 357 bullet or larger and a MAX length of 1.8 inches.

Mine is 1.795 trimmed to 1.790 and of course, .358 caliber.

Some feel that they are "feeling the waters" and heading towards all standard deer rounds but are doing so slowly so they dont "get burnt" by some organization or another? or something? Ive no real clue.

All you say is absolutely accurate and Id like to add one thing.

If you've ever hunted near some "hunters" with itchy trigger fingers shooting a semi auto slug gun..........you have a crystal clear perspective of what DANGEROUS is. Emptying their gun at running deer they give NO thought to where the slugs are going (in my case, accross the creek onto the property I hunt).

Ive dove for cover and had mud or pieces parts of a tree splatter near me more than once.

PERSONALLY, Id much rather see them with a bolt action 308 (if they had ANY brains) where they would be taking more care getting "the right shot" than trying to stop a deer from leaving where they hunt by "getting a slug into it" while at a dead run.

SUPPOSEDLY, the state was shooting for "rifle rounds similar in range to shotgun slugs".........in the case of wildcats or even the now legal 460 Smith and Wesson in a rifle.......they HAVE TO REALIZE that is not the case any longer.

Year to year, I just wait and see but, regardless if they go with the normal deer rounds or not in the future......this one will do it all for me at any range ID take a shot and also give me adequate range for most elk and muley hunting out west if I get a chance to go.

Are there some "better".???.....oh FOR SURE but ......this one will be "mine" and of my own tinkering.

Kind of like when I make my own wooden arrows for traditional bowhunting......its sometimes more about what one puts into something than "what shoots best".
Deer never seemed to notice that my turkeyfeathered woodies and hand sharpened broadheads were "inferior" . :D

I suspect that , at least for me, using this round will produce something of distant cousin to the satisfaction I get from my archery equipment and am confident it will perform as well as the hunter using it ...actually probably much BETTER!! ;-)

But never fear.........you are certainly NOT alone in doing a lot of head scratching about Indiana regulations for rifles.

GodBless
Steve

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Woo-Hoo!!

It seems a great solution to a scenario in Indiana where cartridge length is THE issue.
I have shot a lot of the RCBS 35-200 over the past thirty-plus years in various rifles, with good results.

A 30 HBR necked up (1.8" 308 Win) to 35 would be a neat option. Since you have the 350 RM that was likely the best platform to work from. Reset the barrel about 3/4" and rechamber, then get shooting.

Rich
Sua Sponte

[IndySteve]

Filled to the top with h2o.........58.7 grains.

That'll work. :-D


http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj170/Steve692/350%20JR%20Cartridge/IMG_0498.jpg

Still waiting (blasted reamer anyway) but the RCBS 200 and .........here lately the Saeco 352 even sounds a little more in line (in my brain).

I did see someone had the 352 in a hollow point that "looks" like it would have a bit more BC?.......but really kind of a moot point for most hunting ranges here.

Thanks again for all the advise and suggestions, gang.

GodBless!!

[youngda9]

Any updates on this? I want one !

[IndySteve]

Any updates on this? I want one !

Two rifles, 6 "brown and down" one shot, mostly DRT last year, 3 so far this year with a bit of bad news.

While we built two, one for me, one for buddy of mine, I had health issues and had to sell mine but Jim's is still in use between him, me and his son. Work? OH MY. Shoot mostly JB but have some gas check FP 250? grainers here I never got to (yet).

GUNSMILTH went under, trying to get him to answer me to get the reamer so I can build another later when I can.

It is, in all practicality a 358 Winchester....just in a belted round (but we cant use a 358 Win here in Indiana).

If I cant get the reamer Ill have to have another made later on.
NO disappointments......none. Fair recoil, accurate, WHAMS a deer like no shotgun slug I've ever seen!!

VERY little interest (seems "belted" is a bad word for some. No biggie to me) so not posting much since the above.

God Bless

[IndySteve]

oh......if I didn't post it elsewhere? 2550 fps with a 225 grain Jacketed.......not max either. 8208 powder.

I WANT MY RIFLE BACK.........LOL!

God Bless

[IndySteve]

Up from the "basement", the ol' fart from Indiana is still alive..........kickin', but not very fast.

The 350JR (buddy's rifle still in use) is up to 16 whitetail, all one shot 13 DRT and 3 shuffled a ways before dropping. All fell in sight.


Onward and upward. Still not a cast man (lazy) but still in the game. Multiple physical obstacles yet to defeat but looks like I'll be able to hunt this fall again........so, hmmm.......another wildcat is on the thinking table.

Won't share on it till completed. A simple one like the 350JR (lazy, lol) but more just creating something that's "mine", not really meant to be an improvement on anything ......but betting it will, just a tad.

Gotta get back to posting when something I have is of interest. The powers that be won't let me post in Sell and Swap till active.

Excellent rule, though.

God Bless to all, and all those you love.
Steve

[woodbutcher]

[smilie=s: Sorry to hear of your health issues.Hope all goes well for recovery.Please post updates as you are able.Most interesting thread.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo