Reloading The .44 Magnum by Elmer Keith

[Savvy Jack]

I have been reading a little about Kieth and his .44 endevours. I ran across some interesting conclusions.

Reloading The .44 Magnum by Elmer Keith: http://www.darkcanyon.net/Reloading_the_44_magnum.htm

I found the author quoting Elmer to say that: "After all this time I still prefer the hand load I worked out for reloading the .44 magnum, just after it came out. It gives around 1400 feet velocity with just under 34,000 pounds pressure, and only 3,000 pounds variation as tested by White's Lab."

Then I find in John Taffin's Book of the 44: How Hot are Elmer Kieth's .44 Special loads? Speer Ballistics lab shows solid head brass from a 4" barrel, 17gr #2400 #300 primers and the #44-250 bullet at 24,0873 PSI and a velocity of 1102fps.

Lyman's reloading manual 3rd edition Pistol & Revolver shows the 44 mag load to be:
20.6gr #2400, 1,248fps @ 37,000 C.U.P. from a 4" test barrel.

Interesting numbers.

[Savvy Jack]

POsted this in the wrong place, sorry!

[shooter93]

Different powder lots and there can be quite a difference with some powders.

[Savvy Jack]

Different powder lots and there can be quite a difference with some powders.


Yeap. I assume the difference between the old Hurc 2400 and the new Alliant 2400.....according to the reloading manuals.

[turmech]

Many have done some testing and feel there is little to no difference in the two powders.

I use the load Kieth used even though it is above current data.

[H.Callahan]

Many have done some testing and feel there is little to no difference in the two powders.

I use the load Kieth used even though it is above current data.

+1 I think it has to do more with litigation control than any change to the powder.

[Larry Gibson]

The PSI Elmer and other used back then was based of C.U.P. measurements. Should not be confused with "psi" measured with piezo or gas transducers or strain gauges.

I have measured the psi of the "classic" Kieth load using 22 gr of both Hercules and Aliant 2400 over the 44-250-K and the 429421with a M43 Oehler PBL. I used a Contender as the test barrel. The average psi's varied about 4,000 psi depending on bullet and the day/conditions of the test. All MAPs were below the SAAMI MAP for the 44 Magnum. I've yet to find any indication that Alliant 2400 is any different or "hotter" than Hercules 2400 was as some report.

Kieths load (22 gr) is an excellent one and I use it most often as my own "magnum" 44 Magnum load with 250 gr Kieth cast bullets, either Lyman's or the RCBS.

Larry Gibson

[paul h]

Different powder lots, likely different primers, and especially in the case of Lyman molds, more than likely a bullet that has a different bearing length, different amount of bullet in the case and possibly different weight.

[Savvy Jack]

The PSI Elmer and other used back then was based of C.U.P. measurements. Should not be confused with "psi" measured with piezo or gas transducers or strain gauges.

I have measured the psi of the "classic" Kieth load using 22 gr of both Hercules and Aliant 2400 over the 44-250-K and the 429421with a M43 Oehler PBL. I used a Contender as the test barrel. The average psi's varied about 4,000 psi depending on bullet and the day/conditions of the test. All MAPs were below the SAAMI MAP for the 44 Magnum. I've yet to find any indication that Alliant 2400 is any different or "hotter" than Hercules 2400 was as some report.

Kieths load (22 gr) is an excellent one and I use it most often as my own "magnum" 44 Magnum load with 250 gr Kieth cast bullets, either Lyman's or the RCBS.

Larry Gibson

Excellent report!

[gray wolf]

Good'n Larry

[Mal Paso]

Jack Thank you for the link. I had not read that.

Pressure numbers are the hardest to get and the most suspect. I think too testing equipment has gotten better so comparing new and old numbers is difficult. More important that the Ammo testers and Gun manufacturers are on the same page.

If you're talking about max loads what really matters is what happens in your gun. No matter how hard you push brass against a chamber wall it will spring back a couple thousandths of an inch. When you get hard to eject brass the chamber is expanding too and returning to trap the brass. The number of times you can do this before failure might be beyond the life cycle of the gun, maybe not. Metal Fatigue was just becoming a science at the end of Elmer's life.

Elmer's Load is a bit much for the cylinder on MY S&W 629 but Colt and Ruger love it. I size .001" over groove and get a few more fps than Elmer.

17g was one of Elmer's 44 Special loads But there was a list of 44 Special guns that could safely shoot this load. (Before the 44 Mag, The 44 Associates Newsletter) 17g in a Special Case is hotter than the same 17g in a Mag Case.

Lyman's recent 44 Mag pressures are high and fps low.

My latest 2400 Lot Number is 768. Going by the number of batches Alliant produces each year I think the lot numbers go back to the first batch.

[turmech]

I am glad Mal Paso posted what he did. I thought about my post after I wrote it. I use the keith load that is over current data, but I am shooting it in a ruger SBH. I would not feel as comfortable with the load in every gun.

[Savvy Jack]

Great info Mal, thanks!

[Potsy]

I don't think Elmer would have tolerated loads that would have beat a pistol to death in short order. The original "Smith and Wesson .44 Magnums" and the subsequent model 29's were never famous for being built like a tank.
I don't remember him writing about having to have them repaired on a regular basis.
Rumor has it he fired a cylinder or two full of .44 Mags.

I do remember him writing about carrying his #5 Colt enough to have it reblued 3 times. All the while carrying and shooting his .44 Special loads. I understand that pistol resides in Cabela's in Boise; topstrap still attached.

[fatelk]

Great post; thanks for the info! I've wondered about the old Keith load myself.

It seems too hot for my taste in my S&W 29's, but is no problem at all in my friend's Dan Wesson. I've found that 21.5gr 2400 with a 240 is my upper limit for my S&W's.

[Rocky Raab]

Larry is correct about the CUP versus true psi readings.

Remember also that powder isn't the only variable. Primers have changed a lot over the years, and changes happen with no notice to the consumer. You can be certain that the primers Keith used are FAR different from what we use today - and what we use are probably different from the primers used when 2400 was labeled Hercules.

Simply changing primers has resulted in MEASURED differences of as much as 10,000 psi in some rifle loads. There is probably less difference than that in handgun loads, but the spread is still liable to be be very significant - and certainly enough to make any other comparisons void.

The bottom line is just what the manuals tell us: old data developed with old components is simply not valid with today's components. Use current data.

[44man]

Larry is correct about the CUP versus true psi readings.

Remember also that powder isn't the only variable. Primers have changed a lot over the years, and changes happen with no notice to the consumer. You can be certain that the primers Keith used are FAR different from what we use today - and what we use are probably different from the primers used when 2400 was labeled Hercules.

Simply changing primers has resulted in MEASURED differences of as much as 10,000 psi in some rifle loads. There is probably less difference than that in handgun loads, but the spread is still liable to be be very significant - and certainly enough to make any other comparisons void.

The bottom line is just what the manuals tell us: old data developed with old components is simply not valid with today's components. Use current data.
Good to see a primer man. Larry is also saying good things.
Elmer DID destroy a few guns searching for more. Mostly the special guns not built to what we have today. Do not confuse the special with the mag.
I had one of the first S&W 29's and the Ruger flat top and both ate 22 gr of 2400 with a 429421 Keith without any damage for many, many thousands of rounds. I bet both guns are still going strong today.
I DID use a mag primer for years until I found they are detrimental to accuracy in the .44.

[Mal Paso]

Anytime you are close to max pressure a different primer, better fitting boolit or different powder batch can put you over the top. Every "lot" of 2400 I purchased has been a little different. I think "Sticky Brass" is the only practical way to tell when a gun's limit has been reached but I'm NOT setting it as a test method. I get "Primer Flow" with Federal primers shooting Special Loads.

MY 629 was purchased used and I have put at least 25, 000 rounds through it. The integrity of the cylinder is unknown except that above a certain pressure it expands. 22g of 2400 in the Colt and Ruger eject as easily as 5g of Clays. 22g in the 6" 629 reached 1,608 fps and sticky brass. 19g gives me about 1275 fps and I shoot a couple hundred every weekend without strain on the gun. This is my "Daily Driver" so my view might be different.

22g behind Elmer's Boolit in the right gun is magic. A six shot string with Lyman's 429421 .430" had a Standard Deviation of 4.8 at 1460 fps followed by 6 of NOE's 429421 .431" at 1496 fps same 4.8 SD. 4" Anaconda. Very Accurate.

[Savvy Jack]

anytime you are close to max pressure a different primer, better fitting boolit or different powder batch can put you over the top. Every "lot" of 2400 i purchased has been a little different. I think "sticky brass" is the only practical way to tell when a gun's limit has been reached but i'm not setting it as a test method. I get "primer flow" with federal primers shooting special loads.

My 629 was purchased used and i have put at least 25, 000 rounds through it. The integrity of the cylinder is unknown except that above a certain pressure it expands. 22g of 2400 in the colt and ruger eject as easily as 5g of clays. 22g in the 6" 629 reached 1,608 fps and sticky brass. 19g gives me about 1275 fps and i shoot a couple hundred every weekend without strain on the gun. This is my "daily driver" so my view might be different.

22g behind elmer's boolit in the right gun is magic. A six shot string with lyman's 429421 .430" had a standard deviation of 4.8 at 1460 fps followed by 6 of noe's 429421 .431" at 1496 fps same 4.8 sd. 4" anaconda. Very accurate.

pm sent!

[Char-Gar]

When thinking about Keith and the 44 Magnum, there are a couple of things to keep in mind.

1. After Keith had the gun and shot it for a years, he wrote an article about that year's experience. He fired 600 rounds in that first year.

2. Keith loaded on a single stage press and not one of the hand operated ammo factories that are so popular today, so he loaded and shot much less that many do today.

3. Keith wrote before the silly-wet shooters came along and began to shoot wheel barrows full of 44 Magnum ammo. It was then it was discovered that the Model 29 Smith would not stand up to that volumn of ammo with full snort ammo. The result was a redesigned 29 with and "endurance package" in it's insides.

4. Because of the above, Keith never shot enough to beat a good 29 to death.

5. Also remember that Keith never used magnum primers, just the regular version.

I like the old 22/2400 over the 250 Keith SWC, but have dropped down to 21 grains these days. No matter what pistol, the 22 grain load produced primers that were flatter than a fritter, although I never had any extraction issues.

There is always a little varation between powder lots. Ammo companies buy powder by scores of drums at one time and adjust the powder charge to give the velocity they want. Old and new 2400 does not vary any more than would be normal from lot to lot.

[Savvy Jack]

Thanks for the reply's guys. I enjoy reading them. I never intended on purchasing a 44 Magnum but I did. My purpose was/is not to shoot full power 44 mags but to replicate the 44-40 High Velocity loads intended for late model lever rifles. I know that is still somewhat apples and oranges but it is using the same bullet, the Speer 200gr JHP #4425 along with 20gr of 2400 and WLPs which is my load for my Marlin 44-40. I hope to get 1,200fps with good accuracy from a 7 1/2" barrel. According to Lyman's manual, this load, for the 44 mag, should produce only 23,000 cup (cup). Unique might be a better choice for about the same pressures, maybe less. This psi also replicates the 45 acp for the Uberti Cattleman SAA revolver HOWEVER, the acp is listed in psi, not cup. There is a difference.


44 Magnum SAA
http://pbr44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/44mag.jpg

[turmech]

10.5 gr of unique under 429421 is my other load for my 44 mag. In my gun it is accurate, clean, and fun to shoot. All guns are different but 2400 did not impress me much untill I got up to 21 gr IIRC. bad groups and unburt powder. Like someone said like magic for me above 21