44 Russian and FFFg, how much?

[Spokerider]

I have some questions about loads for my antique S&W 44 Russian please.

Before I owned a chrony, I was loading and shooting 4.5 grains of W231 and the "classic" 246gr round nose bullet from this old six gun. I also loaded and shot Triple Seven with it. I had no idea what the fps was at the time.

Since then, I have decided against shooting fast burning smokeless powders due to the pressure wave spike that they are known for. I don't want to stress this old piece and risk frame stretch. I may have already stretched the frame by .001 or .002 or so, as there is the slightest amount movement there now I don't really recall being there before.......

Anyway, after reading what I could find on loading the 44 Russian from Taffin and Brian Pierce, I see that they state that the original BP load was 22 or 23 grains of FFFg, at a speed of about 700 to 770 fps. Well, when I measured 23 grains of Goex FFFg on my scale, it completely filled the Starline case. Is this correct? Should one try to compress BP this much?, enough to seat the bullet to the crimp?

I just shot 30 rounds of my FFFg loads at the range, and these loads chronograhed between 489 to 522 fps. 15 grains of FFFg just touched the bullet base with only the slightest compression when the bullet was seated. Was kinda surprised at the low velocity.

I also shot some of the 777 loads and the velocity was even less, 445 to 487 fps. I would like a little more horse power form my loads if it is safe to do so.

One last question.........what is the pressure wave like in Triple Seven, long and low like BP or fast with a pressure spike like fast burning smokless?

Thanks for the replies.

[Phillip]

This is from Goex web site.....

http://www.goexpowder.com/index.html

The powder chart is in pdf here.....

http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Pistol-Revolvers.pdf

For reference, here is the WIKI Page....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Russian

[Piedmont]

Remember that the original cases were balloon head whereas your Starline is solid head.

[bob208]

try a bout 20 gr with a drop tube. tube should be 24" long.

[joec]

My preference for BP in pistols such as yours and 45 Colt is FFg but FFFg will also work. Another powder in smokeless you might want to consider for this gun is IMR-Trailboss. I load it for my wife to shoot my 45 Colt 4.5" barrel with a 200 gr RNFN lead bullet. Less recoil than the average 9mm which is her carry gun.

As for measuring grains or weight I don't bother with bp since it is a volume type powder. An easy way is to figure on the bullet from the crimp groove down the length (marking a stick will work). Now figure filling the case to that depth plus 1/16" to 1/18" to compress it when the bullet is seated. BP like compression. Wads will allow you less powder but I personally don't bother in a pistol. I often use the dipper methods when loading BP instead of the metered system. As for drop tubes I've read it all about it and find little advantage in it since I've used both methods and same results.

[Spokerider]

Remember that the original cases were balloon head whereas your Starline is solid head.

would that account for the 7-8 grains capacity difference ??

[Spokerider]

try a bout 20 gr with a drop tube. tube should be 24" long.

I know some folks use a drop tube.........it ain't for me. Too much screwing around. I'll cam the bullet into the case with the dillon for any compressed charges.

[Spokerider]

My preference for BP in pistols such as yours and 45 Colt is FFg but FFFg will also work. Another powder in smokeless you might want to consider for this gun is IMR-Trailboss. I load it for my wife to shoot my 45 Colt 4.5" barrel with a 200 gr RNFN lead bullet. Less recoil than the average 9mm which is her carry gun.

As for measuring grains or weight I don't bother with bp since it is a volume type powder. An easy way is to figure on the bullet from the crimp groove down the length (marking a stick will work). Now figure filling the case to that depth plus 1/16" to 1/18" to compress it when the bullet is seated. BP like compression. Wads will allow you less powder but I personally don't bother in a pistol. I often use the dipper methods when loading BP instead of the metered system. As for drop tubes I've read it all about it and find little advantage in it since I've used both methods and same results.



The dowel method......thats how I measured and came up with the 15 grains of fffg by weight for the load. After tapping the case of powder to settle, I'm figuring it had a light compression of maybe 1/16th of an inch when the bulllet was seated.

As for TB, I have some, and I use it in other applications, but my research indicates that there is a definite sharp pressure spike, as it is a fast burning powder. I want to avoid the sharp pressure spike.

[Wayne Smith]

Mike Venturino writes about even heavy BP loads breaking the cylinders of those old guns. The cylinder wall is quite thin. Those old steels are not capable of holding much pressure. You are wise to keep yourself limited to BP in that gun. If you want to push the 44 Russian in a breaktop buy the Uberti and enjoy.

[w30wcf]

would that account for the 7-8 grains capacity difference ??

In testing powder capacity between a .44 Solid head and balloon head case I find that the difference is 2 grains.

Factory cartridges could have up to 1/4" of compression as did some of the early factory 44-40 cartridges I have dissected.

w30wcf

[nwellons]

I have an antique Russian Tula copy of the S&W Russian. I ended up with a load of1cc or about 14.5g of FFg Goex. I found a magnum primer gave the best consistency, averaging 570 fps.

After a few hundred rounds through what is an old, somewhat loose revolver I decided that since I liked to shoot it more than any revolver, I would change over to a Uberti Russian and save it as a collectable. No one seems to have them in stock but I guess when Uberti makes another production run, I guess they will show up. I have e-mail notifications pending at two dealers.

My local dealer has a Nickel/Ivory one but I just can't take it. Got to be blue for me.

[bigted]

dont get me wrong here but i dont know how others do their comparisson with dipping versus drop-tube loading their powder. personally i have done this comparison several times as i too dont care for the extra step with the drop tube but eveytime i do the test i find that the tube method puts more powder in any given case... versus the funnel method... that i do a comparison in.

also black powder is not just a volume powder...this theory didnt come round till the fake blackpowders were introduced in the 70's. all accuracy buffs have been wieging their powder for the nats **** of accuracy for more years then we been alive. this volume thing is so folks wouldnt blow up their guns with this aftermarket powder that has so many "improvements" over the origanal blackpowder.

so meassure your powder the way you want but true weight from a scale WILL net the best uniform accuracy and ...drop tubing the powder WILL net more powder in a case then just funneling it in.

[Dale53]

I have a serious back ground in muzzle loaders and Black Powder Cartridge Rifles but the only revolvers I have loaded with Black Powder has been the .45 Colt. I have shot that hundreds if not thousands of times in practice and in matches (winning my share of score matches with black powder). I simply drop the powder direct from the powder measure into the case and seat the bullet and crimp. The AMOUNT of black powder is simply determined by how much it takes so that the powder is compressed 1/16th of an inch. This has worked extremely well with the .45 Colt.

I see no reason whatsoever that it shouldn't work just as well with the .44 Russian. I WOULD be certain to use a bullet of the same weight as the original bullet like I do with the .45 Colt.

Drop tubing does allow more powder in the same space. I have run the tests and it is true. I skip this in the .45 Colt as the ballistics I receive are MORE than adequate.

One thing not mentioned here - the brand and grain size of the powder has dramatic differences in ballistics. In the .45 Colt, as an example, a case full of Elephant 2F will give about 750 fps. A case full of Swiss 3F will give near 1000 fps. I would expect similar differences in the .44 Russian. So, I would suggest you try some 3f Swiss. Goex falls about in the middle. I believe Swiss 3F will put you where you want to go.

Dale53

[joec]

Ok here is what I get from Lyman Black Powder & Reloading Book.

This is based on a Lymen bullet #429478 which is 210 gr, using Goex FFFg. 18gr should give about 673 fps with the other powder listed using FFFg is Elephant at 20 grs giving 589 fps.

Now the Lyman bullet #429667 which is 240 gr, using Goex FFFg is 16 gr giving 550 fps. Elephant FFFg is 19 gr powder giving about 577 fps.

I personally prefer FFg for pistol, rifles and shot guns but FFFg works fine also.