Forgive Me For I Am About To Sin!..Big Time

[Char-Gar]

I reaching about to reach the test fire stage of a rifle I am building for my son. It is a 1903 Springfield action fitted with a Shaw 1-12 twist barrel, in 30-06 of course. It will be his hunting rifle.

I need to load some jacketed ammo and am so far behind the curve on these dreadful little yellow tingies I need to be updated. Here are my questions and assumptions..feedback is encouraged.

Cases: Heck if I know which is better, any ideas?

Powder: 4350

Bullets: 168 Sierra Match for testing and 165 Nosler BT for hunting.

I want to give him a good stash of ammo with the rifle.

I am truly and most adjectly sorry for starting a J word thread on this exhaulted cast bullet board.

[AnthonyB]

Char-Gar:
Adjectly and exhaulted in one post? You are showing off....
I wouldn't bother with the match bullets and go straight to your preferred hunting bullet. I have no preference on case type, but do keep them segregated by brand. I'd start at a grain above the minimum load for your powder of choice (IMR or H) and see if you decent accuracy. If you do, that is good enough - load and let your son go hunting.
I prefer 150 grain jacketed bullets over 50.0 gr 4064 in my BAR, but don't think I have fired one in fifteen years. Deer here in the South are small, and I've used cast for my infrequent hunting trips.
Tony

[AnthonyB]

Char-Gar:
Just realized my not having shot a j bullet through the 30-06 in 15 years means my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it, but that is still the approach I'd take.
Tony

[Mohavedog]

Oh, Oh, the shame. You really need to do something for penance like maybe trimming, chamfering and deburring about 2000 .223 cases by hand.
I too would not bother with the match bullets, I would use 180 gr soft points for practice and sighting in and then a few premium Nosler or Barnes for the actual hunting loads.

[Shuz]

Charles--My experience with 30 cal rifles says that 1:12 is too slow for 180g bullets. Those longish 168g Sierras may not stabilize either. If it were me, I'd stick to 165g with normal profiles like the Speer 165 with that twist.

[jameslovesjammie]

The 165 Grain Sierra Gameking or 165 Hornday BT are all my Grandfather ever uses in his 1903A3. Never needed a bonded core, partition, or ballistic tip for whitetail or Mulies.

[41mag]

Char,

I wont give you any grief, as I understand and still have the affliction to the condomated bullets in most of my rifles.

To be totally honest, I would also work up the straight Noslers and work for accuracy. I have found in several 06's that around 57 to 58.5'ish grains of the IMR flavor seems to be a sweet spot for some reason. Using either the 150 or 165gr BT's they simply fall right into quarter sized groups. I also found that seating them to 3.250" OAL base to tip, seems to work magic with this combo.

I myself prefer using the 150's as most of the deer in our parts are between 140 - 190# on the hoof and it don't take much more than that to do the job very well. I would also throw in that if you can keep your muzzle velocity in the 2800 - 2900 fps range you will not be trimming off as much bloodshot meat as you will if you push the limits.

I have over the past 8-9 years been shooting up some older Solid Bases, as well as some standard Rem CL's I picked up years ago. Like above, either one in the 2800'ish FPS range drops Bambi right now.

Good luck with your loads, and best wishes to your son and his new shootin iron.

[xd4584]

I load with jacketed for my 270 with h4831 with 130 grain nosler ballistic tip hunting bullets, with a pump I am shooting 5/8" groups. I really don't think you need to use match bullets for testing, just get the noslers. I had a guy that loaded for me with the same bullets I use now, never had a deer walk away that was hit with those things

[ShooterAZ]

I'd just go with the 165 Nosler BT...it is a very accurate bullet and good on any deer. And for some reason, I have had much better accuracy with IMR4064 in all my 06's than any other powder. Might want to give it a look.

Shooter

[Houndog]

I can see no reason to use ANY of the oh my golly wonder bullets in an 06 when Deer is the intended target! My vote goes toward something like the 150gr Sierra flat based Gameking over enough IMR 4064 to get close to 2800fs. I no longer use that large of a calibre to hunt but MANY of my friends do. That load works on most anything we hunt including Black Bears and Hogs.

[Gee_Wizz01]

Char-Gar you are onto a good combo those J-words and 4350. I have used both of those bullets and IMR 4350. My rifle was built on a 1909 Mauser action and old Federal barrel. The match kings and 4350 could put 5 rds into 1/2" at 100 yds. I killed over 20 South Texas white tails with the Sierra 165 gr boat tails. I killed a large 8 pointer at 430 yds in 1976 with the combo. About 10 years ago I switched to the Rem 150gr Cor-Lokt and IMR 4064 because of the cost of Sierra bullets and my divorce depleted budget. The 150 gr Cor-Lokts would also shoot dime sized groups at 100 yds and have accounted for at least 12 white tails, 8 coyotes and 14 hogs. The 150 gr Cor Lokt worked well on hogs up to 275lbs at ranges up to 200 yds. The 150 gr failed on a huge hog at 400 yds. My Dad was spotting for me and said the hog looked like "a cow with short legs". I hit the hog about 10" behind the shoulders and high, the hog ran about 10yds and started looking around and I hit him again just a little lower. Dad said he could see the dust fly through his spotting scope. With the second shot the hog took off running and went right through a 10 strand barb wire fence, and I never found him. After that instance I am considering going to either 165 gr or 180 gr bullets.

Good luck

G

[geargnasher]

Abject and exhalted?

I'm giving a hearty second to the flat-based Gameking in 150-grain. My favorite powder for that one was WW760 near the upper end, although it's tough to find a medium-burning rifle powder that boolit doesn't like in the '06. Just do the normal stuff, pick one and work it around a bit until the groups get tiny, then recheck it on the coolest morning you have a few weeks before hunting season. The only other thing to dink with is the seating depth, I'd start at about ten thousandths off the lands.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

I have a 98a Mauser Carbine that has been rebarreled to .30-06, probably 10 inch twist, but I've never checked it.

This rifle does not like 4350 and 165 gr boattatils. It will keep 150 and 180 grain flatbases in suitably small groups (3-4 inches at 200 yards) but sprays 165's into patterns. I just shoot what it likes and blame myself for misses.

Without digging out the records, I think Reloader 19 or 22 was the best powder last time I loaded for this rifle.

Robert

[Frank46]

I65 nosler ballistic tip, federal cases, cci large rifle magnum primer, 54 to 55 grs IMR 4350 out of
my sako 75 hunter chronos 2800fps. Very accurate in at least 3 rifles I've shot using that load. Course this is my rifle and my load start with the starting loads and work up. Frank

[fcvan]

I love this board. 'I have sinned' 'penance trimming brass' Only on Cast Boolits will you get such entertainment :) I'm thinking somebody needs to start mashing lead into cylinders. I think J-words aren't a sin if you mash your own but I think you have to cast your own cores. I am not certain. I may have to read the words of the prophets in the 'book of armaments' to be sure. Frank

[runfiverun]

heck it's all shooting.
i know you can load cast, so just do what you do there and use .002 neck tension.
seat off the lands to the ogive 5-10 thou.
with a 12 twist i'd go 150's [i prefer hornady] and keep things in the 2800-2850 fps range.
shame to waste a good cast bbl like that though.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Charles,

The Nosler BT bullets kill deer like lightning in my experience from the .30/'06. Whelen's classic load was 57 grains of 4350 with the 165, so keep that in mind as a known benchmark.

[Char-Gar]

Thanks all, that confirms I am on the right track. I had a 1-14 Phiefer barreled 03 once, and it would shoot 150s like a house a fire. 165s would also do OK, but the 180s started to open up.

I have a number of 1-12 308 Winchester rifles and 150 - 180 do just fine. Above 180, you can forget it. So, the 165 should be the huckleberry for a 1-12 30-06 or that is my theory anyway. Out here in Texas, the 165 should do a little better at longer ranges with the wind. Also, is he every decides to go after Elk in New Mexico or Colorado they should do the trick there.

I started loading 4350 in the 30-06 almost 50 years ago with great sucess, but of course not in the Garand. Worth Palmer, my mentor in gunsmithing, shooting and handloading once told me is a 30-06 rifle would not shoot a good 180 grain bullet over 52 grains of 4350, then it would not shoot. That is have my accuracy testing load every since. I figure 54 grains should be a good startng place for the 165. I have never believe in running a rifle full bore, because there is no need and best accuracy usualy is found below the red line.

When Nosler came out with the Ballistic Tip, I loaded some of them in a 30-06 and they did very well. I forget if they were 150s or 165s. I loaded them with 4895 so I could also shoot them in the Garand.

Thanks again for all of your feedback..

Charles

[303Guy]

I played around with load data and velocities and bullet drop tables and the 165gr boat tail came out tops for range and flat shooting in both the 308 and 30-06. Those were with paper figures of course.

[blackthorn]

My two boys and I all hunt with 30 cal., two 30-06 and my 300 Weatherby. All three rifles are loaded with 180gr Nosler partition bullets. Both boys use IMR4350 and I use H4831. None of us (touch wood) have ever had to chase a wounded animal. Both boys have taken Deer, Moose and black Bear and I have taken Moose and Deer. I never had the desire to take a bear although I have seen some big ones where we hunt.

[303Guy]

I am a heavy bullet person. Maybe that comes from being a 303 Brit person but I have made the observation that 180gr bullets kill small critters just as well as small bullets. Just the trajectory at range becomes a problem and then there is the bullet 'carry over' which is not a consideration when hunting game. Only when comparing with 22 centre-fires.

[Char-Gar]

Well, all things being equal I tend to like heavier bullets as well, but most folks don't think that way. They will pick 150's (30-06) for deer and the like the vast majority of the time. The 165 splits the difference between the 150 and the 180 and will do for all North American game.

My Son most likely will follow the common thinking and do with the lighter bullets and therefore I chose the 1-12 twist. Plus, someday I hope he will get his head screwed on straight and become a cast bullet shooter.

The original 300 Weatherby rifles came with a 1-12 twist and I had one back in 1960. It would shoot 125s and 150s at blazing speeds into very small groups. Stick 180s in there and the groups only opened up about 1/2 inch so they are very usuable. 200 and up? Forget it.

Back in the 20s a batch of 03s came out of Springfield that showed significant better accuracy that had been the norm. A diligent inquiry was made to find the cause. It was traced to a rifling machine whose adjustment had slipped and was turning out 1-11.75 twist barrels. The cause being found, they put the machine back to where it was before and started to turn out 1-10 twist barrels again. Goverment thinking!

[geargnasher]

I'm not saying the 165 isn't a good weight, or even heavier, I was making my recommendation for the 150 based on the twist. Not that it won't shoot 165s well, I'm sure it will do fine at that, but it might be easier to find what the gun likes with a lighter boolit. Deer will get shot through sideways and lengthwise by a 150-grainer just as well as with any other, even a 200 or more yards. It's plenty of boolit for lighter game. If he wants to shoot bears or moose, get a bear or moose gun or shoot some 200+-grain cast lead boolits out of that Shaw barrel at 2200 fps which will do as well as most packable rifles will in any caliber.

Gear

[waksupi]

I also prefer the heavier bullets. They don't blood shot the meat nearly as bad. Back when I still used them, I found a round nosed bullet to be about the best you could use.

[Char-Gar]

For my own deer hunting, years ago I settled on a 180 (30 cal) RN bullet dropped down to Krag velocity in both the 30-06 and 308 Winchester. Killed deer very well.

But my son is of another generation and see things different.

[303Guy]

I can understand that. I'm torn between two worlds myself, flat trajectory versus plain ol' thumping power. Bloodshot meat verses clean kill without the bloodshot meat is a no contest. I switched from the faster 150gr in my Brit to the slower 180gr's after seeing the degree of meat spoilage. Did I mention in a Brit! But then a faster bullet does seem to kill 'em dead on the spot quicker. Six of one and half a dozen of the other. But when it comes to cast, the heavies can be driven to the same velocity. That means slightly flatter trajectory and longer range killing power and plenty penetration.