Pulled Down Turk 8mm Ammo

[Uncle Grinch]

Has anyone pulled down any Turk 8mm ammo? I'm in the process of pulling down quite a bit (600+ rounds) and saving the bullets (155 grain) and powder. I have shot quite a bit of it in the past and frankly, got tired of using the windex/ammonia wash routine.

It looks real clean and other than having corrisive primers, it shoots very good. My goal is to reload it with a reduced load for some of the jacketed stuff and use the rest for my cast.

The powder is a square flake and each round has 49-50 grains. Any idea what velocity this stuff runs? I haven't chronographed any yet, but figure the burn rate to be somewhere between 3031 and 4895.

[Buckshot]

..............There was a thread here (on the board someplace) about doing that. I know Urny uses the Turk powder for cast loads.

................Buckshot

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have pulled quite a bunch of this stuff as the primers are not reliable. I have 500 8 MM cases which I resized from 30-06 once fired cases. I note the poweder to be black and squarish flakes and the cases are full to the top. I plan to use the plinker round (group buy of course) that Catshooter is running now and load down the round to get a reduced velocity. Yes the amount of powder runs 48 gr or more per case and I will start out with 14 or 15 grains and work up to 1800 fps with a red carnuba lube (Lar45) The j-word bullets I have put aside for future use but I am more interested in low velocity cast rounds that kick less, cost less and make less noise and stress on the cases. Time will tell.
Dan

[ez4545]

Dan, I have a few of those rounds myself that I'm going to pull down. I'm going to load some of the jacketed with reduced powder and try out some cast in it too.

Let us know how yours turns out!!

Bill

[Junior1942]

I had leaky primer pockets with Turk 198 gr surplus, so I quit firing it. My original idea was to pull the bullets and get an average weight of the powder charge and then reduce it 5% or 10%. Long story short, the charges varied a bunch in weight. So did the weight and the diameter of the bullets. So combine a charge which happened to be on the heavy side with a bullet which happened to be on the large side, and the result = high pressure and leaky primers.

The powder in mine looked as you described--big square, black flakes.

[Larry Gibson]

TURK AMMO REPORT

Although I have not had to pry open the bolt of my M48 when fired with Turk ammo, sometimes it is difficult to open. Most of the time opening from the shouldered position is difficult. Even though the M48 isn’t the smoothest Mauser I have used, it was new when I got it and has smoothed up some in the 500 or so rounds I have fired through it. Many have mentioned similar problems and as my M48 doesn’t exhibit this problem with service level reloads it appeared to be ammo related. I have what are appearing to be 3 different lots of the Turk Ammo. One lot, purchased locally, is 1942 headstamp and comes in steel stripper clips and a light green bandolier. I purchased 30 bandoliers from Dillon recently and it is two different lots of 1943. Both had the brass one piece stripper clips. One was in purplish blue bandoliers with a buckle on them and the other was in khaki colored bandoliers. I’ll identify them by the color of the bandoliers, blue, green, and khaki.

At the range today the temp was a very pleasant 65 degrees with little wind. I set up the Oehler 35P chronograph and used 100 yard reduced A targets at 100 yards. Aim was a 6 o’clock hold.

The blue lot was the “hottest” with ten shots going 2919 fps, 68 fps Extreme Spread, 22 fps Standard Deviation. The 10 shot group was 2.9” centered in the 10 ring. Bolt manipulation was difficult. Definitely not easy to do from the shouldered position.

The khaki lot had ten shots going 2889 fps, 117 fps ES, 36 fps SD. The ten shot group was 3.7” centered at 12 o’clock on the ten ring. What I noticed about the bold manipulation was if the round had a velocity below 2870 fps the bolt open with no more effort than required if there was no round chambered

The green lot was next with ten shots going 2873 fps, 44 fps ES, 14 fps SD. The ten shot group was 3” with the center of the group at 1 o’clock on the ten ring. Again bolt manipulation was difficult with the rounds above 2870 fps.

As I only live about 2 miles from the range (lucky me) I went home and pulled the bullets of 30 rounds of the blue lot. Several have suggested dropping the powder charges 5 to 10% so I though that was a place to start, no sense reinventing the wheel. The charge of flake powder averaged 48.6 gr with the blue lot. I loaded ten rounds with 43.6 gr and 10 rounds with 46.1 gr. The other 10 I loaded the full 48.6 gr into Winchester 8mm brass with Rem 9 ½ primers. I noticed 8 of the necks split when the bullet was pulled. This is classic indication that the brass has lost its elasticity and is brittle. I thought this might very well be the problem with these rather warm service loads.

Once again at the range the test was resumed. The full loads in the Winchester brass did 2906 fps, 79 ES, 27 SD. The 3.6” group was centered over the ten ring at 10 o’clock. Not quite as good as the Turk ammo. I’m wondering if a hotter primer may be in order. Bolt manipulation was smooth but you could tell there was a case in the chamber.

The reduced load of 43.6 gr went 2643 fps, 88 ES, 27 SD. The 3.6” group was centered at 12 o’clock on the X ring. Bolt manipulation was as if there wasn’t a case in the chamber! Extraction and ejection were smooth and positive.
The next load of 46.1 gr just amazed me! It went 2745 fps, 66 ES, 22 SD. The 2.35” (yes, that’s right – 2.35”) group was centered over 12 o’clock on the 10 ring. Bolt manipulation was slick and sure. Again, smooth and positive extraction and ejection. Would be easy to manipulate the bolt from the shouldered position.
Finally for drill I fired 15 rounds of Ecuadorian 196 gr 1955 vintage. No misfires this time with them going 2470 fps, 94 ES, 24 SD. The group was 3.3” centered at 11:30 in the middle of the 9 ring. Four of the shots were a little sticky on the bolt handle.
Since I got this stuff so I wouldn’t have to reload I’m not so sure how much of it I will pull and reduce the powder charge. If I were depending on this rifle for self-defense I would definitely do it for the ease of bolt manipulation and apparent increase in accuracy. I would discard the split necks and use the extra powder and bullets in commercial brass. But such is not the case with me as I’ve more efficient rifles for self-defense.
None the less, I will test all three lots with the charges reduced 5% to see if there really is an accuracy advantage. Sometimes you get lucky with one group, even though it was 10 shots. Who knows, maybe it will be worth the time and effort.

Hope this helps.

Larry Gibson

[Uncle Grinch]

Excellent feedback Larry, just what I was looking for!

I plan on trying some plinker loads with my Lee C324-175 mold without the gas check.

BTW... I was lurking over on the military firearms restoration corner forum and saw what I think was your posts there. I like that forum also, but it's not quite as active or large as this one.

Once again.. thanks for the info.

[TNsailorman]

I have been using turkish 8mm pulldown ammo for about 3 years now. The headstamp was 1955. It was dirt cheap when I bought it and would not fire reliably. I found the bullets to be 196 grains and the powder charge to average 47.5 grains of dark grey and roughly square shaped flake powder. I found both the bullets and the powder to be remarkably consistant in their weights. I used R-P brass with Federal Large Rifle primers and 45.0 grains of the powder and the bullet seat as before(I used one of the turkish round to adjust the seating die). The groups run from a small of 2" to the largest of about 3 1/4". I haven't chronographed the loads but the brass ejects without effort and the primers are not flattened. It makes for a good plinking and low cost way to shoot the 24/47 that I have. Right now I have replace the front sight with a blank and intend to file the new blank to make the load shoot to point of aim. I've just got to find some more of the ol turkish ammo as I am about to run dry on the original purchase. My experience anyway.:)

[Jim]

I bought a ton of that stuff from cheaper than dirt a few years back. I pulled a lot of it and kept only the bullets. I size them down in a hydraulic press with a lee push-thru and shoot them in an old .303.

[Buckshot]

.............Larry, while I don't have any Turk ammo or a need to pull down any milsurp, I enjoyed reading your report. Good work.

..............Buckshot

[Junior1942]

I bought a ton of that stuff from cheaper than dirt a few years back. I pulled a lot of it and kept only the bullets. I size them down in a hydraulic press with a lee push-thru and shoot them in an old .303.What kind of hydraulic press?

[Larry Gibson]

.............Larry, while I don't have any Turk ammo or a need to pull down any milsurp, I enjoyed reading your report. Good work.

..............Buckshot

Thanks Buckshot, it was fun doing it. As an addendum; since I did that test and wrote the article (about 3-4 years ago) I pulled all the bullets of the remaining Turk ammo and reloaded with the 5% reduced charge. It was fairly easy to do as I strung it out over several days. I lost some cases to split necks and then a few more when they were neck sized, probably around 5-8%. I set my Dillon 550B up to do the loading so it went quick. I used a ND die in station ! with the pin removed and no need to fill primer tubes. At station 2 the powder was dispensed accurately and with no problems. Station 3 was the bullet seating and at station 4 I used the Lee Factory Crimp Die to recrimp the cases. These reduced loads shoot consistant 2 1/2 to 3 moa with no bolt lift problems. A friend who I got the Turk ammo with gave me a bunch of Turk case that he'd pulled the powder/bullets from to load in comercial cases so I was able to load the bullets and powder I had left over. The extra cases make for fine walk about rabbit shooting loads with a 160 FB bullet over Bullseye at 1134 fps. I picked up another case of 1400 Turk '51 ammo but haven't cracked it open yet as I've still got abot half of the first bunch left. I've also got 1500 rounds or so of the Equadoran ammo to do something with.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Excellent feedback Larry, just what I was looking for!

I plan on trying some plinker loads with my Lee C324-175 mold without the gas check.

BTW... I was lurking over on the military firearms restoration corner forum and saw what I think was your posts there. I like that forum also, but it's not quite as active or large as this one.

Once again.. thanks for the info.

I'm of the old school that doesn't think every old gun is a collector or that all milsurp rifles are collector items or have a "history". I see nothing wron with sporterizing or converting some of them. To me arsenal rebuilds or "restored" milsurps are just rifles in original configuration. While it is nice to have and to use some of them in original configuration many of them are well served to use as shooters and modify, sporterize or alterations serve to enhance their usefullness.

I used to hang out at the CSP forum but have really goten tired of the "bubba" criticism and censorship. Thus I went to the firearms restoration forum with the expectation that there would be a little more open thought, creative thinking, exchange of ideas and accepting facts as proven and not because they are opinions or something printed on a web site. But it doesn't seem that way as I've run into the same staunnchy "I wouldn't do that - leave as is - it's only desgned for - etc. ad nauseum attitude. Perhaps it's just slow over ther, we shall see.

Larry Gibson

[hydraulic]

Larry; The thing to do is to buy milsurps that have been already sporterized. The gun shows are full of them and they can be had at give away prices. Seems like once someone puts the hacksaw to a nice old military rifle, they don't want it anymore. Someone like yourself who has the ability and talent, can make a good, usable rifle out of what someone else has ruined. The upside for me and some others is that the supply of original condition rifles isn't diminished and that helps keep the prices down.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry; The thing to do is to buy milsurps that have been already sporterized. The gun shows are full of them and they can be had at give away prices. Seems like once someone puts the hacksaw to a nice old military rifle, they don't want it anymore. Someone like yourself who has the ability and talent, can make a good, usable rifle out of what someone else has ruined. The upside for me and some others is that the supply of original condition rifles isn't diminished and that helps keep the prices down.

I do a lot of that to but I still get a lot of guff. Doesn't really bother me that much.

Larry Gibson

[Jim]

Jr.,
The hydraulic press is a "I built it myself" model. 2- 3" pipe blind flanges, a little 1 or 2 ton bottle jack, a 7/8 NFT nut, 4 pieces of 7/8" thread rod and a Partridge in a pear tree.

Larry,
Tell 'em to kiss your butt plate! If you wanna buy a rifle and sporterize it, that's your money and your priveledge. You're an American and you can do as you damp well please.

[Larry Gibson]

Jim

"Tell 'em to kiss your butt plate!"

You are much kinder than I am!

Larry Gibson

[Uncle Grinch]

Well I finally finished pulling the 8mm Turk ammo down. It was very clean and consistant, running 48.5 - 49.5 grains per round. Mine was mostly 1942 vintage with a few 1944's thrown in.

I ended up with about 4 pounds of powder and over 520 155 grain FMJ's.

Larry... I say your reply to Corvette8n about you wanting his pull down brass, so I sent you a PM about mine. Oh, I also have sporterized many an old Mauser and still have an affinity for any that I see at the gun shows. It's hard to walk away from them!

[Larry Gibson]

Yup, guess I'm guilty as charged, can't walk away from a lot of them either. A gunsmith friend gave me what he thought was a M1909 Argie barrel that had been rechamber to '06 . It had a perfect bore so I took it and put it on the shel where it sat for severa years. While in Iraq I had quite a lot of "thinking" time so I mostly hallucinated about gun "projects" to do when I got home. I've a Argie made M1909 action I picked up at a gunshow for $25 in excellent shape I thought I'd try that barrel on. Finally got around to looking closely at the barrel. I've a DWM M1909 that has been chambered to '06 (requires .311-.312 bullets) and dropped my dummy 7.65-06 loaded with a Remington .311 bullet into the chamber and to my surprise it would not fully seat. I then dropped a FL sized '06 case in the chamber and it seated perfectly...hmmmmmm. I then grabbed a TL314-90-SWC that was cast pretty soft and slugged the bore. Slug comes out a perfect .3085-.309"!!!!! The barrel screws in tight and bumps up about 1/8" short of TDC on the '09 action, can't get any better than that! I've a sporter stock for it to go into so I think I'll just forge the bolt handle and shoot it with the issue sights for a while. The '09 actions have 3.325 length magazines which are great for the '06. Sometimes you get lucky.

Larry Gibson

[Capt. Senile]

I pulled down approximately 10,000 Turk 8mm rounds (What can I say? It's cold here in the winter) as the necks were too brittle to run in my MG34. Charge weights ran from 41gr t0 50 gr, with several being totally empty. I ended up with 10,000 154 gr bullets and 10 eight pound jugs full of powder. A load of 40.0 gr powder and a 154 gr bullet shot to the sight graduations on my K98k Yugo rework out to 700 yards.

What I read when all this Turk ammo was being imported was the powder was known as "Hotchkiss Glass Plate Flake Powder" due to the method of manufacturing that involved drying the powder on glass.

[hydraulic]

I bought a Turk rifle and a 1400 round case of shells back a few years ago when they were selling for $39 for the rifle and 4 cents a shell. Kicked like a mule. That rifle is long and heavy but the recoil was just fierce. I pulled the bullets and dropped 10 grains from the 49 grains and it still kicks. Not as bad, though. Shells were made in '49.

[Ricochet]

What I read when all this Turk ammo was being imported was the powder was known as "Hotchkiss Glass Plate Flake Powder" due to the method of manufacturing that involved drying the powder on glass.
There was a page I ran across somewhere on downloading the Turkish ammo. It identified the powder as German stuff, which makes sense considering their historical relations with Germany.

I suspect some lots of this stuff are now too hot due to powder deterioration. Makes the powder brittle so it shatters to small, fast burning grains on firing. I've got some 1942 stuff that's HOT! I don't think it could be normally that way. But I'll bet it was all max-loaded to start with. The Turks used it in G88s and 1893 Mausers, though.

The cracked case necks are a PITA, but don't hurt anything except accuracy. I've yet to encounter a head separation or body split with the Turkish ammo, but the '50s Yugoslavian's pretty infamous for doing that and letting gas go in the action. I have perfed a few primers with the hot Turk stuff.

[Capt. Senile]

The necks were spliting when the bullet was being stripped out of the MG34 belt and the round was being chambered. The projectiles were canting out of alignment due to the cracked neck and the powder was being dumped into the barrel/receiver. It made a god awful mess when it mixed with the oil used to keep everything lubed. It made sense to pull the bullets, save the powder and reload into boxer cases.
Also, this powder doesn't have that sharp "ether" smell that new, modern powders have. Smells kinda dry.

Brian

[RoyRogers]

Anyone used this powder with CBs in a 30/30?

[Black Wolf]

I recently pulled a bunch of 1954 Yugo 8x57 ammo and decided to use the powder too (Hotchkiss Glass Plate Flake). The average of the powder measured from the pulled 8mm was 40.4 grains. Bullet weight average was 197.9 grains. Having looked over the internet I couldn't find much of anything of load data for this surplus powder. So, I decided to do some experimenting.

I started low and worked up. I managed to establish a linear graph of the velocity vs powder charge up to 2000 fps. Below, in the graph, the highlighted sections are known data having shot 5 shots of each and chronographing each set, showing in the graph average velocity for each respective powder charge. I was actually surprised how well the powder chrono'd as linearly as it did. This is obviously not very scientific, however it does provide some guidance as to how this powder performs and it'll get you in the ball-park of velocity; particularly in the lead-bullet range.

I thought it fit well in this particular thread. I hope you find this beneficial.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/rterwilliger/Junk/HotchkissFlakeGraph-1.jpg

[BerdanIII]

I have pulled quite a bunch of this stuff as the primers are not reliable. I have 500 8 MM cases which I resized from 30-06 once fired cases. I note the poweder to be black and squarish flakes and the cases are full to the top. I plan to use the plinker round (group buy of course) that Catshooter is running now and load down the round to get a reduced velocity. Yes the amount of powder runs 48 gr or more per case and I will start out with 14 or 15 grains and work up to 1800 fps with a red carnuba lube (Lar45) The j-word bullets I have put aside for future use but I am more interested in low velocity cast rounds that kick less, cost less and make less noise and stress on the cases. Time will tell.
Dan

I think you might get some gas back in your face with only 14 grains of powder. I doubt if enough pressure will be produced to make the case seal the chamber. I tried heavily-reduced loads with pulled bullets from this ammo and got a lot of blowback.

I don't know what weight the group buy bullet is, but using reduced IMR3031 or H4895 data might be the way to go. I have used about 26.0 grains of Yugo 7.92x57mm salvage with the Remington 185-gr J-word spire point and got great 100-yd accuracy and a clean burn at about 1700 fps.

[richbug]

Time to bring this nearly dead thread back to life yet again. I was looking through my powder cabinet for something suitable to load some 458 Lott/Win mags, after being dissappointed in XMP5744.

I found 5-6# of this Yugo pull down I had forgotten about. Might as well try to make some use of it. 55 grains of it under a 405 grain gas check bullet loaded at 3.25" seems like a nice starting load, nicely rounded primer, clean bore(no powder or lead). reasonable recoil. No chrono data as it was getting dark, I'd wager 2000 fps based on the recoil.

Will work with it more and report back.

This stuff meters much better than one would think in the Lee measure. Within .3grs max.

[Larry Gibson]

Wow, I wish I had those 10,000 cases! About 80% of the several thousand I've pulled will take a neck sizing and milder load without splitting. The sure shoot nice with 29 gr 4895 + 3/4 gr dacron filler under the GB 290 gr bullet or the Lyman 323470 or 323471. They also shoot well with 30 gr of the pull down powder with the dacron filler. Here's a test with some Turk cases comparing Hornady GCs with my own GCs out of my Yugo 24/47. I've shot about 1200 of them so far:-)

Larry Gibson

[Shiloh]

Havent got around to it yet, but I plan on pulling the bullets and re-powdering with the same powder.

A friend found that it was charged similar to what you found. Not quite up to 50 grains, but weighing between 41 and 46 grains. He averaged the weigh, reduced by 10% and re-seated the bullets.

Turkish surplus 8mm ammo is HOT!! When fired, there is tremendous blast and bright muzzle flash. Better than 30% of the neck split when fired. The reworked bullets were much more consistent, and the muzzle flash greatly reduced. Almost no split necks. Fortunately, I don't have near the quantity to re-work that you did.

Shiloh

[Larry Gibson]

Shiloh

The Turk ammo is not really "hot" by pressure standards for milsurp 8mm. It is loaded right up there though. the reduction of 10% does indeed make it much more reasonable to shoot in the shorter barreld K98 length barrels. The Turk ammo was made for the longer 29" barreled rifles. Velocities are impressive in those to say the least.

Larry Gibson

[Shiloh]

Larry,

Makes sense, but your shoulder will know when you fire a bandoleer of Turkish surplus.;-)

Shiloh

[dualsport]

I may have found another use for the surplus Turk ammo. I got a lot back when it was dirt cheap too. I shoot in military surplus rifle silhouette matches. They don't allow fmj or AP on the silhouettes, but the match director said I could use the Turk if I filed the tip off the bullet to where it's a more or less soft nose. I tried it and they look like Speer Mag Tips now. I wouldn't hunt with that stuff, but it could make for some cheap shooting in the milsurps matches. We shoot out to 500m. My Turk rifle is issue except I had an old Lyman receiver sight put on. With that 29" barrel I have a long sight radius to work with. First I hit the bullet tips on a grinder wheel then finish them with a hand file to get them all the same length, eyeballing for square. Doesn't seem to affect accuracy any, about the same 3" as untouched stuff. The little bit of grinding is quick enough, I hold the case in my hand to make sure they're not getting hot. Haven't tried them on the silhouettes yet. I've done this with Russian 7.62x54r Light Ball ammo too with the same goal in mind. Sometimes you just don't feel like reloading. I do get the occasional misfire with this old stuff.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Makes sense, but your shoulder will know when you fire a bandoleer of Turkish surplus.;-)

Shiloh

Ya go that right! Depending on lot the 6 different lots I've tested push 2770 fps to 2880 fps out of M48s, VZ24 & 24/47 and K98s. It's 2950 to 3000 fps give or take with the 29" barreled rifles! The milsurp stocks will let you know you pulled a trigger if your bench position, or any position for that matter, is poor:(

Larry Gibson

[izzyjoe]

i've seen a few stocks crack at the wrist using turk ammo. it sure is stout.

[chaos]

I too purchased a BUNCH of this ammo way back when. Enough that when the UPS man delivered it, he threw it in the culvert at the end of my driveway ( about 1/4) mile from my house. I think he was a little miffed about the weight of the package. I found it while mowing.

I cannot recollect what I gave for the stuff, only remember that the shipping cost way more than the product.

I get probably 5 split case necks out of ever 10 that I fored from my m48. I quit shooting it because of the fact. The few that i've pulled down, by putting thumb pressure against the slug ( some will actually crack the brass) have a good bit of black tar sealant on the slugs. Its been packed away in a box just waiting for me to take the time to break these rounds down.

[azcruiser]

Think if I remember right the older 8mm Turk was imported by century it the one with the brittle necks.Take a loaded round by the base tap or wack the bullet not to hard a few time and the neck splits . It came from the GREEKS who got it when they got an island back from the Turks guess they didn't feel it was worth shipping back home .Was imported in a faded blue gray bandoler on brass striper clips.The new stuff was in cardboard boxes like 15 or 20 per box and is much nicer

[NuJudge]

If anyone ends up with a bunch of pulled 8mm bullets, I'd be glad to buy them.

CDD

[richbug]

Just an update, I have worked my way up to 63.2 grains of this powder in the 458 WM with a 400 grain gas checked bullet(@3.2" COL). Recoil is into the substantial but bearable range, groups are tightening up(under 2" at 100Y). Cases are coming out clean, and are sealing well. Primers are starting to flatten. I think I can go another 2-3 grains.

[looseprojectile]

have some use.
I still have some of the Turkish bandoleers that I bought for two forty.
Seems as though the sellers were in a panic to sell it at that time.
I just may pull some down and try to make fodder for the FN 49 that I just put a new barrel on. The powder [square flake] seems to be fast burning enough just too much of it in the Turk ammo.
I am getting low on the excellent Greek PCH 39 8mm that I bought two cases of for less than four cents each. About twenty boxes left. [Tough primers]. The FN 49 has a big heavy swinging hammer as opposed to the Mauser striker, runs good.
I still have all my fingers and my original face after fifty years of doing this stuf.
Thanks for the information all.

Life is good