1870 Photo

[Ben]

This photo was taken in 1870. It is a photo of buffalo skulls.
People wonder today if a cast bullet is capable of taking an animal ? ?

I guess the answer to that question would be a YES ! !
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_441501fc94b2230b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6150)

[runfiverun]

buffalo bones had quite a market for years after.
in north dakota many settlers there supplemented thier incomes by taking wagon loads of bones to market fetching something like 2.00 a wagon load.
about 230 wagon loads would pay for a section of land,if they stayed the 7 years on it and planted 460 trees that lived.
otherwise it would take some good crops,and about 400 wagon loads to make a go of it.

the first year of wheat was usually a failure.
so that would mean a lot of wagon loads of bones were hauled to market.

[fishhawk]

66 million buffalo killed off in 29-30 years done with cast boolits what don't they understand it will kill just fine.

[Typecaster]

My dad and his brother had to clear buffalo skulls and bones from the family farm near Surrey, just east of Minot. He started farming with a mule-drawn plow, then graduated to a steam tractor, then tractors using that gasoline stuff.

Guess this is going to be one of those days when I miss calling him.

Richard

[Argentino]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_441501fc94b2230b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6150)


:holysheep

That´s a whole mountain made of skulls!

Which should be (at that time) the minimum cartridge for taking big game such as buffalo? I would think about a .45/70 but I understand that big fifties were created for a reason. I would like to know your opinions please.

Thanks.

[429421Cowboy]

It is still hard for me to imagine that many buffalo out here, and the resulting wholesale slaughter that took place.
I have seen with my own eyes buffalo bones being excavated at jump sites as deep as 20 feet thick, and most of those were bludgened to death with stone mallets after being run off the cliff. Cast boolits+horses were a major upgrade in killing tech.

[x101airborne]

It is unfortunate that in our infancy we were so wasteful. I would like to hunt a wild buffalo sometime. I understand that you can on ranches, but not sure about other public places.

[41 mag fan]

WOW...thats alot and by todays standards annihilation of a species.

[telebasher]

The American Bison were slaughtered to subdue the plains indian tribes, something the US Army couldn't do.

[Larry Gibson]

Other than in Hollywood movies the Army did subdue the indians, including the plains indians. The industrial revolution was another reason for the quick demise of the buffalo; the belts to drive the expanding number of machinery were made of buffalo. For 10+ years prior to the Civil War 500,000+ buffalo hides were shipped from St Lewis each year, mostly killed for the hides by the indians themselves. The need for leather , particularly from buffalo hides boomed by the needs of both the North and South during the Civil War.

It is a myth that the indian only killed what he needed and that they "used" every part of a buffalo. Ever go to a site and view the bones of the buffolo the indians ran off cliffs? Even during the Civil War and post civil war the indians killed many buffalo and traded the hides. W/O freezers, a permanant home and some system of sanitation do we think the indians really used every part of a buffalo? They may have had a use for every part but that does not mean they used it. I'm glad the buffalo didn't go the way of the passenger pigeon. If there hadn't been a ready market for the hides then nasty old buff runners wouldn't have shot them........most certainly the Army did not shoot the buffalo close to extinction.

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

Another cause of the bison deaths, was tick fever, brought north with Texas cattle herds. Blue tongue was also another real killer.
No natural immunity, so die, they did.

[M-Tecs]

Which should be (at that time) the minimum cartridge for taking big game such as buffalo? I would think about a .45/70 but I understand that big fifties were created for a reason. I would like to know your opinions please.


The commercial hunters liked the cartridges that had longer range so the didn’t have to move from their shooting locations as often. The Cavalry Offices made great sport of riding up beside them and shooting them with a 45 Colt. The 44/40 in both rifle and pistol took allot of buffalo also. A 44/40 or a 45 Colt in the ribs killed them just as dead as a 50/110 did. The 44/40 or the 45 Colt just took a little more time.

A friend of mine owns about 600 head of Buffalo. He mostly sells them live but when he does slaughter he uses a 357 level action for head shots. When he first started he used a 30/30 but he would sometimes get over penetration and have meat loss. He is not a gun guy and ammo is what’s cheapest at the Farmers Union (Cenex) or the Coast to Coast Hardware.

From personal experience on head shots for slaughter a the 30/06, 375 Winchester (38/55) and the 30/30 with 170’s over penetrate. If I get the opportunity again I will use my original Winchester 1873 in 44/40. The last ones I shot were out of a jeep bouncing across the prairie using darts filled with antibiotics. Shot that one three times a day for three days. :bigsmyl2:

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well, I helped put down one of the last two of a friends bullalo.

Shot right behind the ear with a 45/70, 465gr boolit at 1600 - 1700fps.

No over penetration, but one dead critter, DRT.

The other of the two was put down with a .44, the rifle used by my friend before he died, One shot kills.

That last one took 4 shots, clearly a case of poor shot placement.

CDOC

[abqcaster]

buffalo burgers are tasty!

[largom]

Other than in Hollywood movies the Army did subdue the indians, including the plains indians. The industrial revolution was another reason for the quick demise of the buffalo; the belts to drive the expanding number of machinery were made of buffalo. For 10+ years prior to the Civil War 500,000+ buffalo hides were shipped from St Lewis each year, mostly killed for the hides by the indians themselves. The need for leather , particularly from buffalo hides boomed by the needs of both the North and South during the Civil War.

It is a myth that the indian only killed what he needed and that they "used" every part of a buffalo. Ever go to a site and view the bones of the buffolo the indians ran off cliffs? Even during the Civil War and post civil war the indians killed many buffalo and traded the hides. W/O freezers, a permanant home and some system of sanitation do we think the indians really used every part of a buffalo? They may have had a use for every part but that does not mean they used it. I'm glad the buffalo didn't go the way of the passenger pigeon. If there hadn't been a ready market for the hides then nasty old buff runners wouldn't have shot them........most certainly the Army did not shoot the buffalo close to extinction.

Larry Gibson



Sorry Larry but the Army did not subdue the Indians. The biggest factor was white man's disease and latter starvation. The army did'nt kill the buffalo but the government allowed white hide hunters to kill them on Indian lands. Another factor was the fact that the government broke EVERY treaty ever made with the Indians.

The Indians may not have used every part of the buffalo but they used ALL of the meat. The meat was dried, smoked, or made into jerky. My grandparents never had electricity and freezers but they kept their meat the same way. What this country did to the American Indians was far worse that killing the buffalo.

Larry Miller

[Larry Gibson]

Larry

You certainly have a much more liberal and historically incorrect view of that history, erhaps even biased given your last statement. I am looking at the issue from a non personal view point to understand what was historically correct. I certainly will admit that your view is the common one based on television and Hollywood docudrama's. Based on actual history it is not correct. Considering we are discussing the northern and southern plains indians from the 1850's to the 1890s there is no documentation they surrendered because of disease. While some may have surrendered because they were "starving" it was because the Army had destroyed their winter provisions and thus they were forced to surrender....war is like that in case you didn't know. They did not surrender in the summer when they could hunt and forage..........fact is the Government created an "entitlement" class back then (unfortunately many remain part of the "entitlement class even though they've been complete American citizens for 80+ years with the same rights, priviledges as you and I)......the indians who were the "free roamers" knew they could "come in" in the winter and "surrender" and the "agency" would give them provisions and clothing, many times new guns and ammuunition also.........yes, it was the Army with the Spencer and the M1873 that made the West safe for the Winchester to win.........

BTW; those buffalo"the Cavalry Offices made great sport of riding up beside them and shooting them with a 45 Colt" most often were completely consumed by the rest of the troops in the field.......if was called "foraging" regardless of how it was done.

Larry Gibson

[Wolfer]

I've never shot a buffalo but I did wrassell one once. My S I L lived on a ranch where they raised them. A small calf had been gored by one of the bulls. It weighed about 250 lb and had a hole in its ribcage you could stick your fist in. The owner gave it to my SIL if he wanted to try to nurse it back to health.
He talked to the vet who said buffalo could live on one lung if they could keep the infection down.
They called to ask if I would help give it a shot of antibiotic. When I got there it was after dark and the temp well below freezing. Every time it took a breath steam blew out the hole in its side. As I stepped into the corral I remarked ( how are we gonna catch this thing? )
Not a problem though, as soon as I stepped down here it came. I caught it by the horns as it pinned me to the fence and was able to hold it in its weakened condition until he gave it a shot.
It died a couple days later.

[waksupi]

I have to agree the natives wasted a lot of meat, particularly when moving. There just isn't time to process a lot, if you are pulling camp every day.
They were happy to end the use of the buffalo jumps for the most part, as they realized that practice WAS very wasteful, although it was the most efficient way to collect a lot of meat and hides in a fairly short period of time.
Looking at the old jump at the Goose Bill on the Marias River, it is plain that many were not recovered, from the location of the bones, and clumps of wool still surviving the years.
I'll stick with the idea that every part was used, just not every time. The Indian method of hide hunting was much like the white man, taking only the hide, and maybe the tongue and hump meat.
"Forty Years a Fur Trader on the Upper Missouri" describes some of this, if I recall. Been awhile since I read the book.

[largom]

Larry, I did not mean to ruffle any feathers with my post. As for me being liberal minded, NO WAY! I don't watch TV or Hollywood Doc's. [can't stand them] but have studied early history most of my life. My statement on disease was out of the time period since the diseases arrived well before the white man by virtue of Indian traders.

You are absolutely correct in the army did destroy their winter provisions as well as their lodges and other supplies. The entitlement's you mentioned were payment for the Indian lands taken by the government and their is evidence of the supplies provided by the agency's being substandard and of short supply.

If I seem biased in my thinking it is because history books have not presented an accurate account of early American history and I see our present government doing the same thing to working class Americans, TAKING AWAY OUR FREEDOMS.

Larry Miller

[GabbyM]

You don’t want to confuse the causes for population reduction with the causes for military defeat.

As far as a lasting impact on the West. Putting the plow to the great plains and the resulting dust bowl which destroyed so much of the grass lands is a tragedy that can not be reversed.
But it seamed like a good idea at the time.

[Hardcast416taylor]

:holysheep

That´s a whole mountain made of skulls!

Which should be (at that time) the minimum cartridge for taking big game such as buffalo? I would think about a .45/70 but I understand that big fifties were created for a reason. I would like to know your opinions please.

Thanks.


A friend of mine that is into the primitive part of his half Mohawk lineage took a cull buff once. My friend did odd jobs for a game ranch. They wanted to cull a few buff and offered my friend one for a cheap price. He used a .50 cal. flintlock rifle that he had made along with the lead round balls. He was dressed in traditional Mohawk leather clothing and moccassins. From a close shot of about 35 yds. to a long shot at 75 yds. he shot and chased that 1100 lb. buff for most of the day. He had busted it twice in the side of the skull and the rest behind the shoulder. The buff actually swam the 100 yds. across the man made lake TWICE with 3 and 4 hits in it. It finally lay down to rest from all the swimming and running. It was then that my friend finally put a final shot between the eyes from 20 feet. It amazed the game ranch owner on the number of shots required to finish off that 4 year old cow.Robert

[Larry Gibson]

Larry

No ruffled feathers here:drinks:....there are many "historical" accoun ts that are opinions. I've always tried to sift out the fact from opinion which many times is difficult for sure. I think Gabby pretty much describes where my comments came from with; "You don’t want to confuse the causes for population reduction with the causes for military defeat". While diseases certainly did reduce the indian populations (most notably in the 15th and 16th centuries before the horse riding buffalo hunting plains indians as we think of them existed) it was military actions (mostly the Army of colonial Amaerica or the U.S.) that "subdued" the Plains Indians in particular. Probably we are in agreemnet with just some semantics causing the difference of opinion.:2_high5:

Larry Gibson

[ammohead]

For years I have been saying, and some on this board have heard it. Whenever someone states that cast bullets are ok for target shooting but you really shouldn't hunt with them I exclaim...

"Seen any buffalo lately?"

ammohead

[mnkyracer]

I missed an opportunity to "hunt " several buffs in MD a couple years ago. I was muzzleloader hunting a farm that rented horse stables out. the caretaker Had a friend who had several bulls, cows and calves break thru a fence and start destroying property, including goring a neighborss horse. I missed the caretakers phone call, and she got several others rounded up to do the deed. All 9 or 10 buffs were tracked down and shot.

[1Shirt]

Interesting thread as well as the varied opinions of some! Ben started a lot of conversation on the subject!
1Shirt!

[M-Tecs]

A friend of mine that is into the primitive part of his half Mohawk lineage took a cull buff once. My friend did odd jobs for a game ranch. They wanted to cull a few buff and offered my friend one for a cheap price. He used a .50 cal. flintlock rifle that he had made along with the lead round balls. He was dressed in traditional Mohawk leather clothing and moccassins. From a close shot of about 35 yds. to a long shot at 75 yds. he shot and chased that 1100 lb. buff for most of the day. He had busted it twice in the side of the skull and the rest behind the shoulder. The buff actually swam the 100 yds. across the man made lake TWICE with 3 and 4 hits in it. It finally lay down to rest from all the swimming and running. It was then that my friend finally put a final shot between the eyes from 20 feet. It amazed the game ranch owner on the number of shots required to finish off that 4 year old cow.Robert

Hardcast

Any idea why your friend had such poor performance? Was it that the 50 cal round ball wasn’t up to the task or was it shot placement? I have seen a couple of dozen being shot for slaughter. All were straight on head shots. Only one required a second shot. It was one that my Dad shot with a 30-06. He hit it between the eyes. It should have been a little higher. The second one behind the ear as it ran by him did the trick. A mature wounded Bison bull is not something to be taken lightly. It gets your attention when its coming straight for you at a full run.

My friend with the buffalo doesn’t offer hunts. If you buy one from him you can shoot it in the head for slaughter but that’s the only shot he will allow. My buddy uses a 357 lever action. His brother uses a 223 with ball. Total they have slaughtered a couple of hundred without issue. They do keep a 30-06 handy in the event something get out of hand but they haven’t used it since the first couple they slaughtered. On a straight on head shots the 30-06 would over penetrate and cause meat loss.

I have never seen one shot in the chest. I have helped skin ones shot in the head. It’s hard to comprehend how large a mature bull is. The shoulders are massive. On a shoulder hit penetration could be an issue. The arm pit area behind the front leg doesn’t require much to penetrate and the heart is lower than on most other animals. Like I said I have never seen one shot in the shoulder but I would think a 50 cal round ball low in the arm pit should work well.

Some of the other buffalo ranchers in the area offer a canned hunt. In this area the buffalo are not free range. I know people that have hunted free range buffalo and that is a lot more of a hunt than most would expect. I would like to do that type of hunt. Shooting one of my buddies buffalo is no different that shooting cattle in the pasture. Same with his neighbors that put a bull in a 160 and let people shoot it.

My friends neighbor does a lot of canned hunts. He has had kids kill their buffalo with one shot using a 243 with a low shot to the arm pit . He has also had one guy take 11 shots with a 375 H & H. I don’t know how may hits but the local butcher said it was “shot to Hell”

If I get to shoot another for no charge I will use my original 1873 44/40 for a head shot. If I ever dioa free range type hunt were I would be taking a chest shot I would use my original 1884 trapdoor or my Browning 1886 45/70 with real black powder.

[waksupi]

I would kind of wonder is a soft lead round ball from a .50 ML would even get through the hair and hide, if it was winter.

[runfiverun]

my 50 is like a light weight [ 230gr boolit] at 44 mag levergun [@ 1600 fps] velocity,
if i stoke it up.
most older guns are a bit slower as they use a bit less powder.

[M-Tecs]

Custer’s first attempt at shooting buffalo on horseback with a pistol didn’t go so well. I know it was fairly common too shoot buffalo off horseback with a pistol but I have no idea if they took head shots or armpit shots.

http://voices.yahoo.com/general-george-custers-dogs-western-frontier-7427222.html

“Shortly after stopping the antelope hunt, the General discovered he was alone because the bugler had fallen behind. This is when he caught sight of his first buffalo.

"How far I had travelled from the troops I was trying to determine, when I discovered a large, dark-looking animal grazing nearly a mile distant. As yet I had never seen a wild buffalo, but I at once recognized this as not only a buffalo, but a very large one." [xxii]

The General pursued this buffalo for several miles and with the help of dogs, Lu and Sharp, he was soon close enough to take a shot at it. In a letter to Libby later he describes the buffalo's attempts to evade his shot and how he struggled to pull the trigger while the horse, Custis Lee, veered away from the buffalo. He said:

"I drew my pistol, intending to use both hands in controlling the horse, when, just as my hand was raised to the reins, my finger accidentally and in the excitement of the moment, pressed the trigger and discharged the weapon, the ball entering Lee's neck near the top of his head and penetrating his brain. Both horse and buffalo had been at full speed. The shot produced instant death." [xxiii]

The General survived the fall and retrieved his equipment from the dead animal. He had to return on foot to the column several miles off he had left earlier in the day, with the dogs following.”

[Doc_Stihl]

My response to someone mentioning the lack of power/effectiveness of a 1500fps cast boolit I simply respond....

"60 Million Bison would disagree."

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well, considering the muzzle velocity of my cast boolits from my 45/70 are in the 1600 - 1700fps range, and the fact that the cow elk I took this past Wed. morning was at about 100yds, that 465gr WFN boolit was probably right about 1500fps at impact.

Not sure just what the 4 quarters of that elk, laying in my friends cooler says as per effectiveness, but it must say something.

One way or the other, I am highly impressed with the results on both this elk and the one taken Aug 1st a year ago. Both one shot, both about 100yds. Results very impressive in both cases!

CDOC

[luvtn]

I'd say the difference between that .50 failure and others was perhaps lack of proper placement, soft lead, and maybe not enough powder to develop the velocities needed or assumed.
lt

[MT Chambers]

:holysheep

That´s a whole mountain made of skulls!

Which should be (at that time) the minimum cartridge for taking big game such as buffalo? I would think about a .45/70 but I understand that big fifties were created for a reason. I would like to know your opinions please.

Thanks.

I've shot the .45/70 and 45/100 an awful lot as well as the 50/90 Sharps, and when using BLACK POWDER and soft lead bullets(as God intended), the 50/90 is a big step up in killing power and recoil. I base this on alot of bullet testing on large game like Elk, Moose and Buffalo, bears as well.

[StrawHat]

...when using BLACK POWDER and soft lead bullets(as God intended), the 50/90 is a big step up in killing power ...

The 50-70 is a big step beyond the 45-70 also. They don't call them "big 50s" for no reason!

[paul s]

I saw an article or radio show that said the Buffalo and Carrier Pigieon became extinct due to disease and other causes and not by hunting/shooting (it had an impact) The auther said the math just did not add up to simply to say "they shot them all"?

[chief3]

I too read that the railroad records of hides shipped just doesn't add up to enough to say hunting was the cause of the buffalo's demise. Sure was one of the causes though.

[1874Sharps]

The photo under my name was snapped just before I shot a buffalo at 70 yards with my 45-70. The hunt was on a farm/ranch and the barren cow buffalo was out in a pasture with the rest of the culls. The shot was taken with the buffalo facing me at a slight angle and it went right through the heart from top to bottom (see photo). You would think with a wound like that any beast would immediately drop, but not so! Those animals have incredible cardio-pulmonary capacity and it took about five minutes for it to die. A train passing by behind the buffalo prevented a follow-up shot, or I would have taken one. This impressed upon me just how tough and strong those buffalo are! The bullet never exited but was unfortunately not recovered when the beast was butchered. The wound channel went all the way past the kidneys. When the buffalo was opened up litterally a bucket of blood poured out.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_741250493bc006044.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6579)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_741250493bd1ec747.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?

do=displayimg&imgid=6580)

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

The 45/70 is just so awesome with the proper boolit!!!!!!!!

Love the pictures!!!!!!!!

Sure would like to take a bullalo, other then the one I put down in a farm yard with a behind the ear hit.

I'd really like to see what my 465gr WFN would do!

CDOC

[1874Sharps]

Yes, the 45-70 is an awesome and ageless cartridge! It is great with BP and great with smokeless as well. Your 465 grain WFN would do just fine.

I wish the above buffalo had been taken on a hunt, as the only thing more unsporting would have been for the buffalo to be tied to a post. Oh well, we went to the ranch for meat and got to shoot the beast to boot. The rancher even skinned and split the carcass and then loaded it up on the trailer. It turned into some fine jerky, sausage, etc.

[quasi]

The Canadian government estimates that the Canadian herds were down to 40 to 50% of normal levels before any European's started killing Bison due to the introduction of Horses to the Aboriginals (Injuns).

[StrawHat]

...The 45/70 is just so awesome with the proper boolit!!!!!!!! CDOC...

The 45 long COlt from a rifle works pretty good also. I read about a teenaged girl who took a buffalo with said long Colt. I do not recall the load but it was fired from one of the mini Sharps and gave complete penetration.

[bowfin]

There was an article in one of the outdoors magazines that claimed it was physically impossible for that many buffalo to be killed in that short of time by shooting them. How many men and how long would it take to skin 1,000,000, and then haul the hides to market by covered wagon? How many pounds of lead and powder? How much time for 10,000,000?

To kill 10,000,000 buffalo, it would take someone shooting an animal every second, day and night for more than 71/2 years...if they always had one shot kills. Then of course, that points to the fact that the skinners would have to skin a buffalo every second non stop in the same time frame. Unless one wanted to say that only one out of sixty buffalo were actually skinned, then the combined groups would have to skin only one a minute. However, I don't think that hide hunters would shoot up 60 rounds for one hide.

A theory gathering steam is that disease swept through the herds. Since the math doesn't support hunters being able to kill that many, it has to be something...

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep, meat is meat and it all needs to die some how and some place.

That is what happens when when your #1 on the food chain.


CDOC

[gandydancer]

I went on a buffalo hunt with a buddy in 1996 to ft Pierre S D at the triple U ranch. (dances with wolf was made there) just to film the hunt. and I watched the owner kill 21 buffalo with a Ruger 22 mag revolver 21 shots 21 dead buffalo. he was standing on top of the stall and shooting them in the neck just back on the head all spine hits.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep Gandydancer,

As has been said many times, it is shot placement.

When I helped put down the last two buffalo from a friend's herd after he died, His son was shooting the .44mag rifle that Lennie always used and used with one shot sucess time after time. However, --------------

It took at least 4 shots with that .44 rifle to put the son's critter down and one with my 45/70 and it was 100% bullet placement as the other shooter had the same shot I did, same distance, same angle.

He just repeatedly missed the mark at 30 - 40' distance.

YES, shot placement!

CDOC

[waksupi]

That wouldn't have been Lennie Covalt, would it?

[Spruce]

CDOC, if you don't mind me asking, what mold is your 465gr. WFN? Thanks.

Spruce

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

No, it was Lennie Jordan. What a friend to so many people, MISS HIM! Brain cancer got him.

Spruce,

The mold was made by Bruce - Babore - here on the forum.

Because of some change in his work or business, he is not longer making molds.

Too bad, as they were very high quality.

The best I had used to that time was from Veral Smith at LBT, but Bruce took the quality up a number of points.

Bruce still posts here on the forum from time to time.

I found him great to talk with, very helpful and lots of good info.

I think he can still supply the info and likely some recomendations for personal experience.

I Know there are other good people here on the forum, but Bruce was the one I worked with and he left me greatly impressed.

CDOC

[gandydancer]

That wouldn't have been Lennie Covalt, would it?
could have been. he was a big dude and it took about 20 mins to cut the beast up. my buddy took the head for a skull mount. said we could have about 20 lps of meat but we where in a hurry to get going and never took any. $1000.00 bucks back then. I bet its a lot more in today's dollars. GD