sight angles

[bigted]

so just came to a realization. had to drill out my MVA sharps vernier to get a hole for an ol man to see thru and havnt blackened it yet but.......when peering thru it i got a glare from the bright unfinished metal so i started to look at the why of it all...this isnt the first time ive had to drill a peep out to see thru it.

discovered that the sight staff is leaned back toward my face pretty far so i took a straight edge and held it along the barrel and protruding back to the staff and discovered that the staff on this sharps vernier is not square with the bore/barrel. now looking at my other rifles that i have wrist mounted sights on...the sharps are both leaned back in such fasion. i also have a c-sharps sight and it also leans back away from being plumb with the barrel/bore.

was wondering why this is so? doesnt make sense to me to them not being square with the barrel so does anyone know why this is and what the reasson is for it?

[Dan Cash]

Your sight leans rearward because the indexing spring is too far forward. Look at your sight base and identify the screw that holds the spring in position. Loosen that screw and move your sight staff to the desired position then tighten the screw. Because the large elevation changes necessary for shooting at long (800 to 1000+ yards, the staff, which was presumably perendicular to the line of sight when shooting at close range is no longer perpendicular when elevated to the 180 to 200+ minutes necessary for the long range shots.

[bigted]

Dan...you r absolutly rite with the MVA. loosened the spring screw and adjusted it as you say and re-snug the spring screw...walla the staff is adjusted to be in the rite place/angle when in the firing detent.

thanks sir...now guess ill just have to figure out the marples tangs for my winchesters.

[Don McDowell]

On that C Sharps sight you'll have to file the indexing notch out tiny bits at a time to get it to stand up where you want it.
Perpendicular to the bore is probably not as important as you being able to see squarely thru the aperature even at the highest elevation settings.

[montana_charlie]

Dan...you r absolutly rite with the MVA. loosened the spring screw and adjusted it as you say and re-snug the spring screw...walla the staff is adjusted to be in the rite place/angle when in the firing detent.
Did no instructions come with that sight?

CM

[bigted]

oh ya...instructions are someplace...manly men dont read em do they?

Don...im not particularly happy with the c-sharp sight. it is weaker and not as stable in the staff with the screw adjuster like the mva i bought. prolly just shoot it on the hunter hiwall where ill set the sight and after getting a load it will probably never move after that. the sight picture is what i was going for as i couldnt see the whole hole thru without adjusting the mva...in my opinion the mva is a better sight then the c-sharps sight...but thats just my humble opinion.

i like the marples wrist sight with the incert out of them. gives me that ghost like ring for really fast shooting in brush. the 45-120 will probably get one on it for just that reasson. speaking of the 120...that hummer is just the ticket for my lube cookie loads and still has room for a ton of powder...hope i can afford to feed the hungry thing!!

[montana_charlie]

oh ya...instructions are someplace...manly men dont read em do they?
If a manly man had a new sight and no internet, would he just 'do it wrong' forever?

You had already figured out that your aperture didn't look straight at your front sight.

Without the (internet) information about the spring adjustment, I suspect your next 'manly man move' may have been to get your trusty drill ... and change the angle of the hole in your eyepiece.

Oops! I hope I didn't just turn on a new light bulb for you ...

CM

[bigted]

Charlie...were you per chance a school teacher? i got over being 'shamed' into stuff a long time ago. seems like i dont know how to take you sometimes with your sharp tounged remarks. still consider you a friend but .......sometimes brother!!

my request was for ALL wrist mounted sights and not just the MVA sight. seems like the angle is "wrong" on all for me and i dont seem to get a full round hole as i look thru a 'bent' sight that is off the plane that is required for being able to see thru a nice round hole.

the old action mounted peeps like the williams or marples never had these issues as they were and are bored with a hole that is straight with the barrel bore.

just seems funny that a higher dollar sight would be so outta line and require filing to justify the correct angle is all...seems like they are close but who wants close when spending their hard earned bucks

[montana_charlie]

Charlie...i dont know how to take you sometimes with your sharp tounged remarks. still consider you a friend but .......sometimes brother!!
My favorite kind of humor is dry and (sometimes) cynical. If you ever wonder if I am kidding you or insulting you, keep this in mind.

If I intend for you to feel insulted, there will be no doubt in your mind.

On the other hand, if you think something, or ask something, or do something that seems (to me) to defy logic, I will be very straightforward in telling you how I see it.
Whether you like it (my view) or not doesn't matter. You either use it, or discard it.

But, if you want to debate the intracies of that subject ... I am up for that, too.

CM

[bigted]

ok so much for "intracies"...i dont wanna ...nor will i play ...so...what does this have to do with sight angles FRIEND?

the angles are still off and the filing method ...while not outta bounds for me...do not seem like such a good selling point for these sight manufacturers.

[montana_charlie]

ok so much for "intracies"...i dont wanna ...nor will i play ...so...what does this have to do with sight angles FRIEND?
Nuthin' ... I was only talking about (in this thread) 'reading instructions' so as to avoid being dependant on others for information.

But, you got the angle thing fixed on the MVA sight.
Now, I presume, you are troubled with the C. Sharps tang sight.
Is that one that looks like the old Lyman sights ... eyepiece stuck on a screw, that pokes up out of a knurled barrel, which is hinged to a base?
Kinda like this ... ?
http://www.lymanproducts.com/includes/img/lyman/sights/1886_win.jpg

I have one of that style on a lever gun, and filing (or shimming) the contact point between the base and the 'body' is the only angle adjustment I know of.
If your sight lays back when it's folded down, the 'adjustment' is done in front of the pivot point.

I have toyed with two plans for a permanently adjustable fix, but haven't pursued either one because, realistically speaking, once you get it set for the gun that it's on it doesn't gain anything from being 'adjustable'.

CM

[bigted]

i agree with the premis that once the sight is adjusted it will stay there...and no my marples sights are like the old lyman style as pictured...my c-sharps is like the mva in looks alone. it seems like an inferior sight in many ways and will be the last c-sharps sight ill be buying of this style. the sight i refer to is a look-a-like to the MVA sharps style vernier. guess ill just get the file out and disasemble it and "adjust" it for the hiwalls.

[Longwood]

If I intend for you to feel insulted, there will be no doubt in your mind.



Eggsagely!

[Longwood]

The Marbles on my Hi-wall needed a tiny bit of fine tuning with my Dremmel.
It would sit straight if I put a little forward pressure on it, but would not stay there.

[montana_charlie]

no my marples sights are like the old lyman style as pictured...my c-sharps is like the mva in looks alone. it seems like an inferior sight in many ways and will be the last c-sharps sight ill be buying of this style. the sight i refer to is a look-a-like to the MVA sharps style vernier.
Uhh ... is that a fairly new sight?
From looking at their website (over the years) it looks like they have changed their sights a bit. They used to sell a 'old dead guys' style that did not have a vernier scale for elevation, and it (maybe) didn't have the adjustable staff spring.
All of their current tang sights seem to have both features.
Choose the brand that you like best, but just don't make your decision on 'old criteria'.

guess ill just get the file out and disasemble it and "adjust" it for the hiwalls.
One little comment about that sight and a Highwall ...
Do you have the base mounted on the tang with the long leg pointed backward? That's the normal/traditional configuration for the 'Winchester'-style guns.

CM

[bigted]

i spose maybe i didnt explain it so you could get the picture...here allow me to re-state my comment.

not only is it a c-sharps sight but it IS a vernier style sight! it ALSO has a winchester base which IS mounted correctly! this is a CURRENT sight and only around 3 or 4 mounths old which cost me 250.00 dollars which isnt real expensive for a vernier but IS enough that it should be rite from the get go...especially from an american company that is in competion with another good american company and they DO make their products correctly... and as the cost is there...so is the "buy it once and use for the rest of your life" theory...[ i also have the same style of sight from them and it is flawless]... instead of the..."lets take it apart and make it work with hand tools here at home" type product ....as it has no adjustment available for angle of repose and needs the adjustment to be correct in angle to the bore! there are other flaws [in my opinion] with this sight but that is purely my expectation and never was advertized to be all i wanted...rather the sight was a cheaper sight but...the angle should be rite...in my humble opinion!

my pedrosoli staff sight also needs a correction with the cheep sight that comes on the pedrosoli and uberti long range rifles...however i intend that with it i will get it on target and leave it there and so will adjust it and be somewhat happy with it.

my marples sights are fine sights but cost a fraction of the others and i can ALMOST see having to 'adjust' them for the correct angle! and no they are NOT the vernier style...they are the same animal that you so conviently posted a photo of charlie.

my only reson to post the question in the first place was to detemine 1- if others had the same problems with these sights ...and 2- what did they do about it to make it rite! questions still stand and the "FIX" is still interesting to hear about!

[floodgate]

OK:

This inspired me to design a long range tang sight, with a staff CURVED along an arc struck from the center of the front sight, so the aperture would ALWAYS be square-on to the line of sight. Of course, this would require the elevation adjustment screw to be curved, too and,...and.... Oh, never mind; let's put that patent application back in the file...

Floodgate

[montana_charlie]

i spose maybe i didnt explain it so you could get the picture...here allow me to re-state my comment.

not only is it a c-sharps sight but it IS a vernier style sight! it ALSO has a winchester base which IS mounted correctly! this is a CURRENT sight and only around 3 or 4 mounths old ....as it has no adjustment available for angle of repose and needs the adjustment to be correct in angle to the bore!

http://csharpsarms.com/dynamic/products/thumbs/300x200sharps-deluxe-longrange_53.jpg

This image comes straight from the C. Sharps website.
As you look on the base of each of those sights (except the Lyman #2 style), you can see the head of a screw that (presumably) anchors the staff spring.
It is not one of the two (unseen) mounting screws, so it can only be the spring anchor.

Does your C. Sharps sight not have the third screw in the base?

If you DO have the third screw, does it not allow adjustment of the spring position?

CM

[Longwood]

OK:

This inspired me to design a long range tang sight, with a staff CURVED along an arc struck from the center of the front sight, so the aperture would ALWAYS be square-on to the line of sight. Of course, this would require the elevation adjustment screw to be curved, too and,...and.... Oh, never mind; let's put that patent application back in the file...

Floodgate

With todays machining techniques, making one with a rack and pinions would be possible and fairly easy.

[Simonpie]

OK:

This inspired me to design a long range tang sight, with a staff CURVED along an arc struck from the center of the front sight, so the aperture would ALWAYS be square-on to the line of sight. Of course, this would require the elevation adjustment screw to be curved, too and,...and.... Oh, never mind; let's put that patent application back in the file...

Floodgate

Not quite true. If the screw attached only at the eyepiece and the the top, it could be free to swing with the arc of the curved ladder. A spherical bearing at the ends would be nice, but simple slop would work. Some screws have marks for counting fractions of rotation, and these would be inaccurate over long adjustments, but the vernier would still be accurate. I say do it!

[bigted]

http://csharpsarms.com/dynamic/products/thumbs/300x200sharps-deluxe-longrange_53.jpg

This image comes straight from the C. Sharps website.
As you look on the base of each of those sights (except the Lyman #2 style), you can see the head of a screw that (presumably) anchors the staff spring.
It is not one of the two (unseen) mounting screws, so it can only be the spring anchor.

Does your C. Sharps sight not have the third screw in the base?

If you DO have the third screw, does it not allow adjustment of the spring position?

CM


yes that IS the sight. and YES it does have the third screw on the base....BUT no it does not adjust...the hole needs to be elongated and the spring is in a detent on the base so the movement will be neglible.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Big Ted, take this with a grain of salt and some humor, but when someone says, manly man, dont need to read no stinking directions? Then drills out a prefectly good eyecup.

Two words and only two come to mind.


Dumb ***

The Lunger
KW

[montana_charlie]

yes that IS the sight. and YES it does have the third screw on the base....BUT no it does not adjust...the hole needs to be elongated and the spring is in a detent on the base so the movement will be neglible.
Well, that tells me that I can't be of any help.

What McDowell was telling you about filing on the notch is probably the only kind of advice that will get your angle fixed.

CM

[Gunlaker]

You might want to give the guys at CSA a call. Maybe they can help you out. I've got their sights on 4 or 5 rifles and they are all quite good. I don't like them quite as much as the MVA sights, but certainly more than the "good" Shaver sights and the ones that came on the Brownings.

Chris.

[bigted]

i took the c-sharps sight and removed the spring. then with my dremel i elongated the hole so the mounting screw would move back n forth about 1/8th inch total...then ground some off the end that nestles in the mortice that houses the flat spring...now i can adjust the spring enough to get it straight.

Kenny...yup im that and more...if i could drill it out more i would. the marbles tang mounted sights i have are just rite for me with the incert removed and this leaves a peep that meassures around .155 inch inside diameter. this allows me to see thru it and focus on my front blade in better shape...my eyes are really shot...pun intended.

works fine for informal plinking but to get a score of any kind i need glass on my rifles....ho hum

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Get an adustable eye cup. Try that first,

If you go glass spend the money ONCE and buy the Best you will not be unhappy that you did. MVA Scope I have 4 of them

KW
The Lunger

[Lead pot]

I can understand where Ted is coming from with the small hole in the eye cup.
With the dark floater I have I cannot use the eye cup that comes with the MVA sight unless the light is bright. I also have drilled out the eye cup so I can see the front sight clear on a overcast day.
I have the Hadley on four of my MVA sights on the rifles I use for the long range shoots but on one of my sights when the light conditions change and I move to a larger hole I noticed a very pronounced change on the bullet impact on the 900 yard target I was on, well I shrugged it off thinking it was because of a condition change or the light change and made a sight correction. A few days later I was shooting at 200 yds here at home and I switched the aperture and it moved the impact. This is something I just noticed on one of the Hadleys and not the others I use but it is enough to put a doubt in my mind for using them.

[montana_charlie]

It has been my understanding that many makers of the tall tang sights purposely provide an eyepiece with a 'small' aperture when only one eyepiece is included in the package. It will often run down in the 'forty thousandths' diameter range, and the maker EXPECTS the customer to drill it out to suit himself.

Does anybody know the diameter of the standard aperture supplied with the MVA #100 or #107?

CM

[Longwood]

works fine for informal plinking but to get a score of any kind i need glass on my rifles....ho hum

Try shooting with a cheap pair of Number 1.0 reading glasses. If it helps, but seems like a little too much, talk to you eye doc it.

[Longwood]

It has been my understanding that many makers of the tall tang sights purposely provide an eyepiece with a 'small' aperture when only one eyepiece is included in the package. It will often run down in the 'forty thousandths' diameter range, and the maker EXPECTS the customer to drill it out to suit himself.

CM


Eye cups are cheap.
Problems is,, a good set of all of the number drills is not.
I do not advise doing it if you do not have a number drill set.
I find that I need bigger holes and often drill out my eye cups. Especially on my closer range lever guns.
I drill the little eyepieces first and when I like my work, drill the large diameter cup (if I have one,) a little bit smaller.

[John Boy]

this isnt the first time ive had to drill a peep out to see thru it.
Ted, this statement says that it is not the first time you mounted a vernier. I have close to 20 verniers of various makes on my rifles and have never had to drill out any of the holes in the oculars to have a clear picture of the front sight. Leads me to believe your mounting steps have not been the same that I have done ... so,
Would you mind posting the steps that you perform:
* mounting a vernier
* including the use of bubble levels and shims

[Lead pot]

:-) John you must still have good vision :-)

I have an old Mossberg US 44 that has a "peep" sight and switchable front sight posts. It used to be great for me to see the posts no matter how fine the post I selected. It was a while I shot this rifle and 4-5 years ago I pulled it off the wall to shoot it and shouldering it to shoot I saw just a eye cup in front of me I saw no light looking through the cup so I blew through to clear out the dust but I still saw no light looking through it but there was a hole.
When floaters and cataract form one must use a larger aperture of make up their minds and mount a scope if they want to shoot.
Using a scope will be the last thing for me to turn to shooting a Sharps.

[John Boy]

Lead pot - I used to sight with both eyes open until the cataract started developing in the left eye. Now, right eye only with a squirt of Visine. On cloudy days though, need a Hadley Cup. Anymore, pushing 70 is no fun getting a good POA on long range bull eyes but no drilling the ocular holes... Yet!
Coincidentally, had an eye exam today to check on the cataract - an operation is getting closer

re scopes: Put a Fecker on the 32-40 CPA and the 9.5x46R Martini Schuetzen has a detachable Hi-Lux long eye relief one too :wink:

[Lead pot]

I shoot with both eyes open. Always have.
The golden years are fun ain't they ?? cant see, cant hear, cant walk and cant breath but it's still fun :-)

[Longwood]

I shoot with both eyes open. Always have.
The golden years are fun ain't they ?? cant see, cant hear, cant walk and cant breath but it's still fun :-)


We are still kickin,,,,
Just not as high.:-P

[Lead pot]

I can still get my foot higher then my head when I kick :-) but I'm usually laying on the ground on my back when I do this.:smile:

[John Boy]

I can still get my foot higher then my head when I kick...but I'm usually laying on the ground on my back when I do this.Lead pot - it's easier when your laying on your stomach!

[bigted]

Ted, this statement says that it is not the first time you mounted a vernier. I have close to 20 verniers of various makes on my rifles and have never had to drill out any of the holes in the oculars to have a clear picture of the front sight. Leads me to believe your mounting steps have not been the same that I have done ... so,
Would you mind posting the steps that you perform:
* mounting a vernier
* including the use of bubble levels and shims


well lets see...i didnt say i had mounted and shot lots of vernier sights....i did say i mounted lots of peeps and shot them and invariably found that the eye incert removed helped me see the front sight and what i wanted to hit. peep sights like the lyman charlie shows and marples that look like that also...williams reciever sights and lyman reciever sights...all peeps and all doing better for me with the incert removed.

my problem is not that i cant see well with my right eye...it is a problem becouse i have an irepairable healed tear in my retina and the floater is the scar tissue in there. when it riped i was for all intents blind in that right eye...not a fun experience. the scopes do well for me in short spurts as even with them the more i concentrate thru them the worse the 'floater' is.

as for mounting the new verniers...both are short range sights and i plumbed them with the action/barrel level and then installed the mva and the c-sharps and lucked out both times as they mounted plumb with everything with no need to file nor shim. the angle i refer to is the back and forth angle where there is a spring detent for the staff to "lock" in place for the shot....seems like i have....with help here....figured out how to plumb these for the back n forth issue.

ive got a request for info to mva for ALL their scopes and mounts. so will see...haa ...what turns up.

[Gunlaker]

Ted you'd like the MVA scopes I think. I've got a 23" scope mounted on a CSA 1874 and it's really nice to use. I've also got the new B5 mounted on my CPA Stevens. The mounts are really nice to use. I've got the centerless mil dot cross hairs on both. The next Shiloh is going to be set up for the 23" MVA scope.

Chris.