New to Me Winchester 38-56

[Chill Wills]

I picked up a 1886 Winchester in 38-56 from friend. Well, more like I guy I know some. It was built in 1894. BTW, I swore I would never have a rifle in that useless caliber. Hmmmm.
The rifle is in good shape in all respects except for two.

The bore is a little dark and somewhat rough but has strong rifling from end to end. It is weakest the last 1/4 inch on the muzzle end from poor cleaning I'd guess.

The other transgression is the light cleaning/heavy rub-out it got on the stock with the wood looking too good and missing very small wood slivers on each side of the top side of the tang metal. All and all, good aged blue and the smallest trace of colors on the receiver. That assessment might be a tad generous but the rifle looks good!.

I fired it in two sessions with BP & the Old West Bullet Moulds - 265 gr FP bullet cast 1 in 20. It will hold 4-5 inches at 50 yards with barrel sights shooting dirty. Just good enough to save your life or kill meat ......in a pinch. I have not been in that kind of pinch in all my years.

I am going to try some 3031 and Unique loads with Dacron fill just to see if the groups can be halved. If not, I might sell it or re-line it.

What to do with it????? Well, it would make a good NRA Cowboy silhouette rifle, if I can get the groups worked out. 1886's hold and shoot this game well. Way too heavy to pack in the woods hunting! I've done plenty of that with my 1886 carbine in 45-70. For hunting, the 38-56 has nothing on the Winchester or Marlin in 38-55 and they carry so much better.

I must have a soft spot in my head for 1886's. [smilie=b:

[northmn]

Some things do not have to make sense. The rifle is plenty adequate for deer but I suppose in an old original it is not much better if any than a 38-55 as you really don't want to load it much above old factory levels. I would think if one used BP there might be a slight advantage as the 38-56 does hole more BP than a 38-55.

DP

[ajjohns]

This caliber has interested me for awhile. But, I often wonder if there's any new info out there to put it to the next level of power. Not that I'd need it, just don't see it. I read by MLV that accually the 38/55 only holds about 48 grains of powder and not the 55 that the name states. The 38/56 does hold 56. I've saw (as many of you probably have)that J loads with 3031 get you up around 1800 fps in the 55.
I never see anything like that for speed on the 56. Mind you I wouldn't wanna see a fine old rifle get ruined, but wouldn't there be quite an advantage for the 56 over the 55? You have a fine old piece of history there, I bet you wish it could talk?

[Chill Wills]

Sometimes these old rifles got their muzzles 'wallered-out' (that is a technical term) by a well meaning frontiersman. It was common to clean Winchesters from the front. Cleaning rod wear in the muzzle when cleaning with-out a rod guide from the front cleaned out the rifling in the last 1/4 to 3/8" of barrel. And who then but a target shooter would have used a rod guide?

This rifle is that way but not too much or too bad. But you can see it. Mostly it is OK.

Sometimes a low pressure load will shoot fine. By that I mean -low pressure by the time the bullet makes it to the muzzle- and just slips out with out a large blast getting around the bullet. That large blast can, in the worn last 1/4 inch, cause tipping of the bullet as it leaves. Or this is the theory anyway.

I got an old load data sheet from the man who sold me the rifle. It was last shot 30+ years ago. One page, single line showing loads for Unique, 3031, Sr-4759, and 2400.
The Unique and 3031 loads shot best in his testing so I will try them first. the best of them showing 2-3" at 50 yards. Of course all the powders we know to try can be tried.

But, I won't go to the ends of the earth to make it shoot. Barrel condition is just not there. It is about a 5 or 6 on the 10 scale and the muzzle is the likely cause of the large groups.

I hate to reline any old rifle if I can avoided it. But, this one is not a collector and giving it a new accurate life and making it useful has merit too. Or pass it along.
But, I am just getting started!:Bright idea::cast_boolits:

[TXGunNut]

Rifle has character, that's a good start. Sometimes that's enough. Maybe you'll find a load she likes. Bending brass beats machining old steel, IMHO.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

This cartridge can be readily made by reforming and necking down the 45-70. It is not much of an improvement over the 38-55 but can be pushed somewhat harder due to increased case capacity and the fact that the 1886 action is pretty stout if the rifle is in decent shape. Optimal powder appears to be 3031 but others in the same range burning wise can work well. It is not regarded to be a target cartridge but does well in the hunting department. It can take down deer, bear, elk, moose and other medium game effectively with the same bullet used in the 38-55...cast or J. My own 86 started out as a 38-56, but a previous owner had made a dismal mess out of trying to pry a broken case out of the chamber....with an ice pick and various other instruments of torture..and of course ruined the gun. It was a mess that ruined every case fired in it...that I fireformed. I wrote to the NRA Technical staff and they advised having it rebored to 45-70 which I had done. With regular 45-70 cases and moderate charges of 3031 it now shoots accurately and reliably with cast at 100-150 yds. LLS

[jh45gun]

You say it is not a collector if you feel that way a lot of folks that have milsurps that had the barrel screwed up from over zealous cleaning drill out that part and making the end of the rifleing even. That is all they had to do to get the guns shooting again. I know collectors would still cringe but to me a gun is useless if it does not shoot well or at least with in reason. I got rid of old milsurps because at 50 yards that is all they would do is 4 inch groups .Two rifles had good bores and they sorely disappointed me. They were not expensive guns for their ilk so instead of putting money into them getting the ends drilled I traded them off. Now a lever gun like you have I would have made the effort to try that and then if it did not work then reline it. Just an option or maybe it would be better just to get it relined from the get go. Nice looking rifle Congrats

[Bob Busetti]

My first 86 was a 38/56. Gave $75.00 for it in 1973. It was being used in a slaughter house to kill cattle. Owner sold it when he ran out of ammo. Used it for a number of years with plain based cast boolits. Cases were the old CCC company. I later learned now to make cases from 45/70 brass. Heavy gun, no one ever asked to borrow shells from me. An old time gunsmith got me fixed up with dies & mold. Had alot of fun with it. Sold it about 15 years ago when the new Brownings came out.

[KirkD]

Unique and IMR 3031 are kind at opposite ends of the spectrum, with Unique being a fairly fast powder and IMR 3031 a reasonably slow powder. Try the dacron filler over a medium speed powder such as 5744, SR4759, IMR 4227 or even IMR 4198. The groove diameter might also be a factor. The 38-56 can have a range of groove diameters up to .382, so if you are shooting .375 bullets in it, there will be problems. Dacron can help with undersize bullets, but it is always good to have the right size bullets to match the groove diameter. Also, a gas check bullet will probably do better than a plain base.

[Chill Wills]

I was away at the Black Powder Target Rifle Nationals and just now got back to the Lever 38-56 rifle, poor barrel, so - so accuracy deal.
The two loads (Aside from BP) I loaded tested yesterday was 9.5 gr Unique and 28 gr IMR 3031. both shot good but the 3031 load was really good. 50y accuracy was surprising. The rifle acted like it needed a few shots before settling in and then it put the renaming 7 shots into about 1.5 -2" at 50y.

These were both light smokeless loads and slower than BP I suspect. I will be holding off on getting the rifle re-lined until I can do some more development. This rifle might make a NRA lever silhouette rifle after all!

Never thought I would have ANY use for the '86 in 38-56 caliber. For offhand silhouette target shooting it makes for a good setup.

[KirkD]

Sub-2" groups at 50 yards are quite good. Have you had a chance to slug your groove diameter? If you are getting 2" groups at 50 yards with a .375 boolet, that is phenomenal. Groups should tighten up even further if you shoot GC bullets sized to .001 over groove diameter. I love the the .38-56 because it is a true old-time, obsolete caliber from back in the day

[Chill Wills]

Sub-2" groups at 50 yards are quite good. Have you had a chance to slug your groove diameter?

Kirk, I have not slugged it. Too lazy. I have a number of .379-.381 bullet moulds and never even started with the smaller stuff on this old rifle. I know better. If after shooting it some it was acting like small was needed I might go through the trouble. I had other clues too like having already shot black in it.
With singleshots, slugging is quick and easy but I would still start with the larger bullets just to avoid the drill.

I never had any use for the 38-56 due to my thinking. From the perspective of the western settler, the weight of the 1886 v the killing powder did not make it a good choice. Certainly the new 1894 Winchester ended it for eastern hunters as well.

But with a different purpose in mind I might be convinced to pack it over hill and dale to the silhouette line.;-) A heavy weight, light recoiling rifle (accurate) has a place there and will give an old rifle new life beyond collector value.

[Gunlaker]

If it's of any use, I've got an 1886 in .38-56 that I've yet to start playing with, but it slugged at 0.381 or so IIRC. I plan on shooting BP with it in reformed .45-70 cases.

Chris.

[6pt-sika]

About 7 years ago I bought a very nice Marlin 1895 of 1897 vintage in 38-56 from Leroy Merz in Minnesota .

This gun had been looked after and not overly used hence it was in very nice shape . But I bought it to shoot it !

So I used the Lyman 375449 mold with plain old wheelweights sized at .379" and pushed with 20 grains of XMP5744 . This load with the old factory open sights was easily capable of 2" at 100 yards .

Oh for brass I ordered 40 pieces from Midway made by "Quality Cartridge" , since at the time I owned a 33 WCF , 40-65 , 38-56 and a 45-70 I decided I needed each with it's own headstamp .

Anyway that fall I took it hunting and killed a doe at 28 stepped off yards . I was sitting on the ground a little ways off a barbwire fence on our property and when she poked her head thru I popped her in the temple and needless to say she was DRT !

[6pt-sika]

Oh yeah at the time I had the Marlin 1895 38-56 I also had a pair of Marlin's in 38-55 . One being a 336CB and the other being a circa 1894 Marlin Model 1893 .

For some reason I always preferred the 38-56 !

But then my preference for the pre 1920 Marlin's was ,

1. Model 1895

2. Model 1893

3. Model 1892

4. Model 1894

I've owned a few pre 1930 Winchester Model 1892's and 1894's . But so far I've not gotten a Winchester Model 1886 .

[Chill Wills]

38-56 Winchester load test.
I have had this rifle since May and have not had it out to the range but a very few times. The bore has full depth rifling but it is dark in places and generally looks like 40 miles of BAD Road! I have shot a few test loads through it. They were BP, Unique and 3031 so far.
Today I had a chance to re-shoot the 3031 load. It had shot the best in my limited tests. In addition to shooting for group I set up the Oehler chronograph to see what was what.

The Winchester still has the issue barrel sights. This time I set the target at 100ys and shot from the bench.

Old 38-56 cases, imr-3031 powder, Rem 9-1/2, NEI 379-275GC, Dacron fiber
I sized the bullets to .379"


Wow! The 28gr load went into a group a hair less then 3" and the 30gr load cut that by a 1/4" at 2-5/8"and I do not see the front post sight all that well anymore. A young guy with good eyes must really be able to shoot barrel sights! I was that guy back in the day.

28gr, imr-3031 - 275gr GC bullet = 1505 FPS av
30gr, imr-3031 - 275gr GC bullet = 1630 FPS av

This is a good deal more velocity than I would have guessed. The very few sources of smokeless powder loading data show loads for 3031 with 10 more grains. I can't imagine that hot a load in this old rifle.

[KirkD]

Excellent results!! The original velocity was around 1,400 fps, so it would be interesting to try a 26 grain load to see how accurate it is. Try two groups of five shots each at 100 yards. Shooting with open iron sights, out of a bore that looks like 40 miles of bad road, at 100 yards and getting groups of 3" or less is excellent. You've got yourself a good old classic there!