First cast rifle attempt

[mortre]

I'm hoping to make my first attempt at cast bullets in a rifle soon. The rifle is a pre-64 Winchester 94 (built in 1961). The mould I have is a Saeco #316 150gr FNGC, no gas check or sizing die yet and I have not slugged the barrel so I am flying blind and expecting the worst. But I just can't wait to try it anyway.

Bullets are cast with ISO 96-3-1 + tin, and weigh in at ~153 grains straight from the mould. Base driving band measures .310 and the upper 2 measure .311. I have tumble lubed the bullets twice in 45-45-10. My plan is to try 13.5 to 16 grains of 2400 in .5 grain increments. Does this sound like I have any hope of success? Or should I just wait and order gas checks and a sizing die?

[Larry Gibson]

GCs and a .311 sizer are definately needed for best performance. If you want to shoot them as is w/o GC then I suggest 5.5 - 6 gr Bullseye.

Larry Gibson

[mortre]

Hrmm, no bullseye. Hercules Unique maybe? I think the closest I have to bullseye burning rate is VV N320 and AA#2 Improved. Those are all powders I just want to burn up anyway.

[Bret4207]

Your 2400 load is WAY too hot! W/O GC with Unique...I'd start in the 7.0 gr area and be prepared to back off a little.

Get a Lee sizer kit in .311 and 1k 30 cal GC's. Then go to town!

[runfiverun]

try about 7 grs of the unique.

[mortre]

Thank you both for the suggestion! In this case (gas check bullet without the check), is it just velocity that needs to stay low? Or velocity and pressure?

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[mortre]

Just loaded 10 rounds with 7.0gr Unique. Apparently I missed a reject though.

One was noticeably harder to seat and the seating stem left an impression on the nose. Took all ten and chambered them, the hard to seat one didn't want to chamber. I forced the lever closed anyway and ejected it and there are rifling impressions on opposing sides of the bullet perpendicular to the part line. Take the micrometer and measure the bullet by the case mouth behind the impression. Nose was 314 at the widest point. I am guessing something on the face of the mould kept the mould from closing completely. And between that and the hard push to seat the bullet bumped the nose up far enough that the chamber will not accept it.

Am I right?

46570

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[Ben]

You REALLY DO need a sizing die. .311" like others have suggested would be a great place to start.

[rintinglen]

A Lee .310 sizer die is less than 25 bucks and will make your cast boolit shooting much more predictable and fun. A few minutes with a drill and a dowell with a bit 320 grit sand paper and you are golden. Used as issued you'll still take at least silver.

As for powder, for plain base low-velocity plinkers, Unique is THE way to go. It has been used in reduced loads for nearly a hundred years. Yeah it requires careful attention to prevent double charging, but no other powder used for this type of load has been more thoroughly tested.

[mortre]

You REALLY DO need a sizing die. .311" like others have suggested would be a great place to start.

It certainly looks like it.

[Bret4207]

Thank you both for the suggestion! In this case (gas check bullet without the check), is it just velocity that needs to stay low? Or velocity and pressure?

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16.0 2400 with a 150 gr boolit in the 30-30 is simply a HOT load, GC or not. That 16.0 gr load was meant for cases of 8x57, 308, 35 Rem, 30-06, etc. capacity. Your 30-30 would be in the warm area with 12.0 -13.0 grs. with a 150. Above that area would depend entirely on what the gun wants. I wouldn't be using that powder in that charge range myself in a 30-30.

People read about the 16.0 2400 load or 13.0 Red Dot load and never get the info that "The Load" was meant for "...cartridges of at least 30 caliber and of the capacity of the 35 Remington..." to quote Mr Harris, developer of "The Load". We need to pass that info along.

Pressure is part of your dynamic fit, and Fit IS KING with cast. You need top balance you pressure and fit, both static and dynamic, to meet the guns desires.

[mortre]

16.0 2400 with a 150 gr boolit in the 30-30 is simply a HOT load, GC or not. That 16.0 gr load was meant for cases of 8x57, 308, 35 Rem, 30-06, etc. capacity. Your 30-30 would be in the warm area with 12.0 -13.0 grs. with a 150. Above that area would depend entirely on what the gun wants. I wouldn't be using that powder in that charge range myself in a 30-30.

People read about the 16.0 2400 load or 13.0 Red Dot load and never get the info that "The Load" was meant for "...cartridges of at least 30 caliber and of the capacity of the 35 Remington..." to quote Mr Harris, developer of "The Load". We need to pass that info along.

Now that's interesting. My Lyman manual lists a load range of 14.0gr to 17.0gr for the Lee 150 FNGC. It also lists the 7.0gr Unique load as a starting load, both with a pressure of about 25K CUP. Hence my question about pressure and velocity. While pressure was nearly identical it lists a velocity of 1200fps for Unique vs 1600fps for 2400 at the same pressure.

I'm not saying your wrong, just conflicting information.

[mortre]

As for powder, for plain base low-velocity plinkers, Unique is THE way to go. It has been used in reduced loads for nearly a hundred years. Yeah it requires careful attention to prevent double charging, but no other powder used for this type of load has been more thoroughly tested.

I realize Unique has more data than just about anything, and has been around forever. I've just found it to be a true PITA to work with, and will not be replacing it when it's gone. I just can't find a consistent way to dispense it. Even getting it through my powder funnel into a case takes 3x the work of any other powder I've used.

Way to much cussing involved when I normally find loading cartridges relaxing. It seems to work fine for just about everyone but me.

[Bret4207]

Now that's interesting. My Lyman manual lists a load range of 14.0gr to 17.0gr for the Lee 150 FNGC. It also lists the 7.0gr Unique load as a starting load, both with a pressure of about 25K CUP. Hence my question about pressure and velocity. While pressure was nearly identical it lists a velocity of 1200fps for Unique vs 1600fps for 2400 at the same pressure.

I'm not saying your wrong, just conflicting information.

Friend, you can try it, but IME you'll have a HOT load. With a GC'd boolit and proper fit, it might work fine at the 16.0 grs you mentioned. But I'm betting you'll find 2400 is not the best powder to use with a 150 in the 30-30 case. My concern is more that you were using "The Load" (13.0 Red Dot or 16.0 2400) well outside the parameters those charges were originally intended for. If you weren't getting that charge from "The Load" but rather from Lyman, then I was mistaken and you have my apology. The Load will pop a 190 gr boolit out of a 308 at upwards of 1700 fps in some guns. Think about the pressure to do that in a 30-30 case.

I was further concerned because you were using an unsized, non-GC'd boolit that is designed for a GC. With warm to hot loads this is an almost certain recipe for a heavily leaded barrel and poor shooting. The best way to do this, if you want to use 2400 at least, is to start around 10 grs and work up slowly using a known good lube and spotlessly clean barrel. My gut feeling is you will stop increasing your charge around 12-13 grs when your groups open up and barrel becomes a sewer pipe. But, you never know. You might find one of those odd combinations where your gun, alloy, boolit, lube, FIT, FIT, FIT all work well together and you can get 1800 fps with 2400 and no GC. I'm not putting any money on it though.

As for Lymans recommendation, which edition are you using? I can't find that load in any of mine. As far as the different velocity from the similar pressures, that's burn rate. Others with more formal education and with a knowledge of the proper terms can explain it better than I, but peak pressure in the pressure/time equation doesn't always mean the same velocity...or something like that.

[jh45gun]

According to the newest Lyman cast bullet handbook the max load for a 150 grain bullet is 17 grains of 2400 with a CUP of 34,600 well with in acceptable pressure ranges.

My load for a 170 grain bullet is 17 grains of 2400 which is 1.5 grains below max and works great and is accurate.

So all things considered I would say 16 grains of 2400 should work just fine Bret. But that said to the OP you really need a sizing die and gas checks to do it right.

[Bret4207]

I'm not arguing pressure, I'm arguing practical use with a non-sized, non-GC'd boolit. 16.0 is going to be way hot for that combo, that's all I'm saying. 16.0 2400 with a 150-160 gr boolit is going to be hot in a 30/30 for a cast load anyway. Maybe my 94 is tight, but Unique works better for me in the mid range loads and something like 3031 is the ticket for full power.

[tall grass]

mortre

I would be concerned about high pressures due to neck clearance in the chamber. You said that it was hard to chamber. I don't think shooting that load is a good idea. Get the 0.311" sizer that has been suggested. Be safe.

Jim

[Larry Gibson]

Mortre

The 2400 loads should be for GC'd bullets. It will probably not shoot well with a non GC'd GC designed bullet. With such my experience is best accuracy will come below 1200 fps, preferably below 1050 fps. I've alwyas had best accuracy with Bullseye at such.

Since the bullets weren't sized to begin with I'd venture the larger harder seating bullet was cast when the mould wasn't quite closed (beagled) or the seating stem swaged it out when seating it.

Midway has Lee sizers on sale including the suggested .311 one. A .31 cal lyman M die would be benificail or neck sizing with a Lee Collet die so you only have .002 - .003 neck tension would also be best. A crimp is not needed if single loading but if loading from the magazine tube a crimp will probably be needed.

Larry Gibson

[jh45gun]

Got ya Bret I thought you were talking about after he got the gas checks and the sizer.

[mortre]

I did order the sizer and checks, not from midway though. I placed the order through the corner gun store. Takes longer, but I don't pay shipping and they stay in business. I believe the hard to chamber round was a combination of bad cast and bumped up nose.

Sense no one has addressed it, I assume tumble lubing should be fine for unique at 1050-1200 is I believe what was mentioned earlier. At what point will that lube method fail generally. I understand that the truly knowledgeable can stretch the limits of the method, but that is not me. After the sizer and checks come in, if I want to play with 2400 would tumble lubing still be effective?

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[jh45gun]

Tumble lubing with LLA will work fine before I got my Lubrisizer a used one that a friend gave me all I used was a Lee Sizer and tumble lubed and 2400 is my go to Rifle powder for Cast Bullets. It will be fine. Yes you can thin it out a little bit and it will still work well.

[Bret4207]

IME Mule Snot, Lee's Liquid Alox, will almost always do okay into the 1400 fps range. After that, it's a krap shoot, but I have rifles that take it up past 1600 fps.

[mortre]

I got to shoot the first 20 yesterday, and I wanted to thank you all for the help. Saeco #316 as cast with the recommended 7.0gr Unique, 10 lubed with 45-45-10 and 10 lubed with a pan lube recipe I found on here. Can't remember the name, but it's basically paraffin, Vaseline, JPW and LLA. Honestly couldn't tell much of a difference except the pan lube averaged a little less velocity.

50 yards, 45-45-10, 1" target dot
http://img.tapatalk.com/47e7a415-3027-de19.jpg

100 yards, Pan Lube, 1" target dot
http://img.tapatalk.com/47e7a415-307e-8ad4.jpg

Considering I was using stock iron sites, I'm really happy with the results!

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