.380 powder load & bullet size

[bc1]

Hi guys. I'm looking at a .380 for a pocket gun/ccw. The 9mm is just a little bigger than I want to carry.

Question is what would be the max powder load and bullet size for a self defense load? It appears the .380 factory loads use a 90-95 grain bullet and the 9mm uses a 115 grain bullet. If I can put a 115 or bigger grain bullet in a .380 then I don't have a problem buying the .380. Then adjust for the powder load. I also haven't seen any data on what kind of pressure these pocket pistols such as the S&W, Ruger, Kahr, Kel-tec, Beretta, and others will take.

The .380 uses a .17 mm long case and the 9mm uses a .19 mm long case. I don't suppose that the two extra millimeters allows that much more room for a larger powder load does it?

I checked the Hodgdon online report. Shows the .380 as max loads all under 16,000 psi while the max for the 9mm appears to be about 33,000 psi. They shows .380 loads with 90, 95, & 100 grain bullets and the 9mm loads as 90 to 147grain bullets. Velocity varies with the .380 from about 800 to 970 fps and the 9mm at 850 to 1400 fps. Looks like about all the .380 rounds are subsonic (under 1000 fps) while the 9mm can get some faster rounds although the 9mm with a 147 grain bullet can get about 1100 fps.

If I could get the equivalent of the 9mm factory load (115 grain) in the .380 and still get at least 800 fps for 25 yards, that would make me feel secure. Probably ditch the jacket and go with a lead round nose flat point or a semi wadcutter so I have something that will flatten on impact.

I still think the .380 is more of a pocket gun that fits my pockets and the 9mm is just a little big for pocket carry. My .45 fits in my back pocket but the barrel sticks out about 3 inches. I'll have to find something like one of those trucker wallets to carry that thing back there or maybe make something from leather.

Thanks

[bobthenailer]

for the 380 probly the best SDF load is the Barnes 80 gr tac-xp bullet avalible to handload or in factory ammo from at least Corbon there not cheap but they do work well.
These were tested in a Kel tek 380 , 956 fps , 10.9 " pentration , bullet expansion .645
Ck out 380 loads at goldenloki.com and choose for yourself !
As far as small 380s that ive shot the kel tek or ruger will do for normal SDF ranges of 20 ' or less but if you want one with good sights and one you can actually aim and shoot good groups with at more than 20 ' a Sig or a Kahr are tops !

[tadeus]

I have been loading the 380 acp for my Commander Conversion, with 3.5 gr of bullseye and a 125 gr cast bullet. The average velocity is 990 fps. Of course the Commander is not a blowback. Some friends at the range reload for their Glock 25 and Tangfoglio´s in 380. Their loads are around 2.7-3.0 of bullseye with the 125 gr LRN.

[fecmech]

I have been loading the 380 acp for my Commander Conversion, with 3.5 gr of bullseye and a 125 gr cast bullet. The average velocity is 990 fps. Of course the Commander is not a blowback. Some friends at the range reload for their Glock 25 and Tangfoglio´s in 380. Their loads are around 2.7-3.0 of bullseye with the 125 gr LRN.

Those loads with a 125 gr bullet are way overloaded for a .380. Lyman cast bullet handbook lists 2.0/ Bullseye as max for a 120 gr bullet. I'm sure you would be fine shooting them in 9mm platforms such as the glock and Tangfolio but not in a .380 sized gun. I would bet that 3.0/Bullseye/ 125 cast is well up in the 20K-25K psi range.

[H.Callahan]

You might try looking at a Mak, if you haven't bought it already. It'll give you a little more umph than a .380 (about half way between a .380 and a 9mm) in about the same size gun.

I think you are going to have problems trying to duplicate a 9mm load in a .380, particularly if you are looking at a blowback action. Not sure I would feel good about it even if it was a locking action.

[Fishman]

No way can you get a 9mm luger equivalent load in a .380 case. As you pointed out, the difference in case length and pressure make a huge difference. And shooting a 9mm luger in an 8 oz gun would definitely get your attention, either from the recoil, or perhaps from the resulting grenade you created.

If you just have to have a pocket-sized gun with 9mm luger ballistics, you might check out the Diamondback DB9. I've handled one and they appear well made, but reports from actual owners are mixed. Quite a bit of parts breakage, which tells you just how difficult it is to make a small pistol with big power.

I personally feel pretty comfortable with either a Kel-tec or Ruger LCP in my pocket in most cases. I believe the premium defense loads in the .380 make it a viable defense gun, especially up close.

Might I suggest shooting one or more of the micro .380's with standard loads before buying?

[zxcvbob]

There's a crazy (in a good way) guy named Clark who loads .380's up almost to .357 Sig ballistics for his Colt 1903 (I think that's the right model) but he says the current crop of mouseguns do not support the case well enough to hotrod the cartridge.


Might I suggest shooting one or more of the micro .380's with standard loads before buying?
I have a Keltec, and a normal max load of Unique with a 95 or 100 grain bullet is about all I can handle -- the recoil is fierce. The problem is the gun is too light and the grips are too small. According to Quickload software, Unique performs better than just about any other powder in the .380.

[tadeus]

No way can you get a 9mm luger equivalent load in a .380 case. As you pointed out, the difference in case length and pressure make a huge difference. And shooting a 9mm luger in an 8 oz gun would definitely get your attention, either from the recoil, or perhaps from the resulting grenade you created.

You can really get 9 mm ballistics out of the .380 acp. I´ve been doing so for the las couple of years. I must say that this are not the rounds that I ´ll use on a Walther PPK or a SIG P 232. But they just work fine in the Commander 380 Conversion.

In the pictures you can see my son at the IDPA finals, here in Mexico. The gun he uses all the time is the 380 Commander (For the finals he used 125 gr LNR, with 3.3 gr of Bulleye).

[tadeus]

Of course, this 380 round would be a "wildcat", useless in any free country where its citizens have access to any handgun caliber; sadly that is not the case in my country where the bigger calibers that the law abiding citizen can have are the 380 acp and the 38 spl; that is why we look a way to "improve" the ballistics of the .380 for our autoloaders, and let me tell you that they really get the job done; as for the 38 spl, Elmer Keith did it 70 + years ago.

[fecmech]

We are talking apples and oranges here. Yes you can duplicate 9mm loads in a .380 case just not within SAMMI .380 pressure specs. ANY 9mm load that you duplicate in a .380 case WILL be higher pressure than the 9mm and therefor overpressure in the .380. You can easily get away with it in a 1911, Glock, or Tangfolio platform as the guns are built for 9mm, 38 super and .40 S&W. I don't think it is a wise thing to do in the OP's case with a Keltec or Ruger LCP. If the gun survived I'd be willing to bet he would not fire a second magazine. Ranch Dog lists 3.5/BE with his 100 gr bullet as max in the mouse guns and that is a handful in an 8 oz. Keltec.

[tadeus]

We are talking apples and oranges here. Yes you can duplicate 9mm loads in a .380 case just not within SAMMI .380 pressure specs. ANY 9mm load that you duplicate in a .380 case WILL be higher pressure than the 9mm and therefor overpressure in the .380. You can easily get away with it in a 1911, Glock, or Tangfolio platform as the guns are built for 9mm, 38 super and .40 S&W. I don't think it is a wise thing to do in the OP's case with a Keltec or Ruger LCP. If the gun survived I'd be willing to bet he would not fire a second magazine. Ranch Dog lists 3.5/BE with his 100 gr bullet as max in the mouse guns and that is a handful in an 8 oz. Keltec.

I agree with you. This loads are well probe in the 1911 platform. I even know a guy who put a supported barrel in his Government 380 Conversion, and it getting over 1250 fps out of it.

For me the 3.5 of Bullseye work just great; if I need more power in a handgun I´ll go to my S&W HeavyDuty or my Outdoorsman and use the Keith Load.

With the Glock 25 and the new Tangfoglio (FT 9, I think is the model) that are arriving here, the loads are in the range of 2.7-3.0 grs of bullseye. I wouldn´t use this loads in a blowback action gun like the Walther PP-PPK, the Sig P230-232 or any of the old Llamas or Stars 380 that are around here.

The primers are not flat or created, and the cases look just fine, with no signs of over pressure and no extraction problems.

[Bret4207]

You simply aren't going to turn a 380 into a 9mm Para. Not in a pocket pistol. I carry an Astra Constable, which is an all steel Walther PP clone of good make. I'd trust that gun a lot more than a plastic mini 380, but still can't make into something it isn't.

Go to Ranch Dog Molds site and look at his 380 boolit. At 850-900 fps that nice little FP will do all the 380 can, and the gun will hold together too.

[Good Cheer]

As stated on another thread I used the Lyman 358345 hollow point and had great results.

[fcvan]

I have several .380s and several 9mm pistols. You say this is a carry gun and not a general duty shooter. I have the Taurus TCP-738 which is tiny but very accurate. I had no trouble taking soda cans a 25 yards. That gun fits quite well behind my wallet.

I have an FEG PA-63 which is a Hungarian knock-off of the Walther PP not the smaller PPK. The double action trigger pull on that is RUDE by design but single action is quite crisp. That pistol is very fun to shoot and very accurate. It turns out you can fix the double action pull by replacing the hammer spring with a stock Walther.

My most recent acquisition is a Taurus 709 Slim in 9mm. This pistol is the same size as the FEG PA-63 and actually weighs 2 ounces less. Recoil in the .380 is negligable, recoil in the 709 is brisk.

Can you load up the .380 to hotter specs? Sure but the guns and more specifically the brass wasn't designed for it. Both were designed in the early 1900s, 1901 for the 9mm and 1905 or 1908 for the .380 ACP. the most important thing is the .380 ACP was designed to operate at 1/2 the pressure of the 9mm. Most .380 ACPs, like my FEG or the Walther PPK are straight blowback pistols. The little Taurus TCP 738 is a locked breach design. Even though the FEG weighs twice as much the Taurus is rated for higher pressure loads.

I can technically fire .380+p type loads in the TCP 738 but it only weighs 10 ounces. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be much fun to shoot. My general .380 load is the Lee 356-102 RN with 3 grains of bullseye. That load has worked in every .380 I've tried. In the TCP 738 I generally carry factory hollowpoints which supposedly give about 200 ft/lbs. I think CorBon makes a hotter load that is a +P. Again, I'm not sure how fun it would be to shoot a steady diet of the hot stuff.

If you are looking for a gun that will fit behind your wallet, the little Taurus, or any of the similarly sized .380s will do. If you want more more oomph than a standard .380 make sure the weapon is a locked breach design and that the manufacturer has rated the gun for +p loads. Frank

[Combat Diver]

Other locked breach .380s are the Colt Mustang and SIG 238 clone. Good luck in your quest.


CD

[2wheelDuke]

I just got the Ranch Dog .380 mold. I'm using their info as a guideline, but I'm just getting started on working up more than just a range load for it.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/bin/TL358100RF/data/loadnotes01.pdf

So far I've run a light load in my P3AT and PPK with good results as far as reliability and accuracy. Now it's going to be time to start with the chrony.

I agree with Ranch Dog's theory that a mouse gun won't push a .380 JHP fast enough to expand reliably.

[Roundnoser]

I'm using a 95 gr. JSP bullet with 3.0 gr. of Bullseye out of my pocket rocket for CCW. It has plenty of pepper on it, but not over max. It cycles well and is consistently accurate.

For plinking, I use a 95 gr. lead roundnose bullet with 2.7 gr. of Bullseye. Its a nice, comfortable round. Cycles well.

[revolvergeek]

You can really get 9 mm ballistics out of the .380 acp. I´ve been doing so for the las couple of years. I must say that this are not the rounds that I ´ll use on a Walther PPK or a SIG P 232. But they just work fine in the Commander 380 Conversion.

In the pictures you can see my son at the IDPA finals, here in Mexico. The gun he uses all the time is the 380 Commander (For the finals he used 125 gr LNR, with 3.3 gr of Bulleye).

Thanks for posting that. Very interesting! :Fire:

I am sorry that you have to put up with such laws.

[tadeus]

Thanks for posting that. Very interesting! :Fire:

I am sorry that you have to put up with such laws.

Yes indeed. The IDIOTIC laws that we have here made us "transform" in to 380 acp anything that the law considers illegal to be own by the decent law abiding citizen.

[BigBehr]

I'm using a 95 gr. JSP bullet with 3.0 gr. of Bullseye out of my pocket rocket for CCW. It has plenty of pepper on it, but not over max. It cycles well and is consistently accurate.

For plinking, I use a 95 gr. lead roundnose bullet with 2.7 gr. of Bullseye. Its a nice, comfortable round. Cycles well.

Thanks Im going to try these loads!

[double8]

My recent choice was a CZ 83 .380 ACP, with a 12 rd magazine. Nice heavy all metal pistol. Grips are plastic and a bit slippery. The recoil is not bad at all. A little bulky inside the waistband.