Need a good 25/20 hunting bullet...

[cwlongshot]

Hello guys,

I am looking for a good hunting bullet for the 25-20 and possibly the 25-35. I have a lever and SS and a Bolt in 25-20 and a Lever and a SS in 25-35.

I have a nice shooting load with a 75G Speer bullet in the 25-20 and a 117g for the 25-35. But would like to try lead in the 25-20. I have been shooting them more and more and $$ are adding up for the bullets. I have a good supply of lead alloy and time to mold... ;)

I would like a WFN style, (Unless you convince me other wise) but I 'm not looking for top vel, so a GC bullet is not needed. BUT, I am thinking heavier, so near 100G is preferred. That will also be better in the 25-35 as well.

Small game and targets. I use the 25-20 on coyotes from a Savage 23, this would be primary use/need for the bullet.

What do you suggest?

CW

[runfiverun]

i'd suggest you stay in the 70 gr range for the 25-20.
it is capable of pushing cast boolits right along.
i understand the wanting one boolit thing but it don't always work like that when you want performance.
if you want a heavy flat nose with a crimp groove in the right place for the leverguns you'll have to have two molds.
now a g/c for the 25-35 and a non g/c for the 25-20 would work very well.
use the case capacity of the -35 to your advantage or live with a big cased 25-20.

that's my take on it anyway.

[Calamity Jake]

Lyman 257420 is a good bet in that 25-20 has a flat nose for the lever guns but not wide.
Range Dog might have a WFN 25 cal mold, I don't know of anyone else that makes one.

[Nobade]

Ranch Dog for a gascheck design, RCBS cowboy for a plain base one.

Stay under 75gr. for 25-20, usually they have a 1:14 twist and don't stabilize anything heavier.

[Tatume]

Hi CW,

Since you specifically meantioned "WFN" I assume you're familiar with LBT and the molds made by Veral Smith (who coined the term WFN). The first comment I have is that in my experience LFN (Long Flat Nose) bullets shoot more accurately in my guns. They have a very wide meplat and kill like lightning. WFN bullets are better suited to shorter range hunting with handguns.

http://lbtmoulds.com/

Although he doesn't advertise it, if you ask him Veral will cut a mold with two different cavities. He has been happy to cut cavities for one bullet but with and without gas checks, and has reluctantly cut cavities for me with the same profile but different lengths (a heavy and a light). My suggestion would be to ask for two 75 gr LFN cavities, with and without a gas check shoulder.

On the matter of crimp grooves, you should ask that the crimp grooves be positioned correctly for the lever action rifles, and ignore the crimp grooves when loading for the single shots. Be sure to tell Veral the makes and models of the rifles, and he can probably pick a location that will be a best compromise for them.

All in all, I have found Veral to be very good to work with, and his molds are top notch.

Take care, Tom

[cwlongshot]

Ranch Dog for a gascheck design, RCBS cowboy for a plain base one.

Stay under 75gr. for 25-20, usually they have a 1:14 twist and don't stabilize anything heavier.

You do know std factory loads are 86g?

I have had excellent results with the 75G Speers and I do like the WFN profile. BUT would like a lead slug. I like the performance, with larger calibers using heavy for caliber slugs. Hoping I can do the same with the lil 25, but if I need a lighter slug, definitely want a WFN to make up for some loss of the lighter slug...

I'll check the twist on the Savage as its my primary "want" for this bullet. But having it feed thru the Marlin is a delineate plus.

CW

[Bret4207]

Yup, and the 86 grain factory stuff isn't the greatest load to come down the line. 75 grs and under seems to work better in the 25-20.

As far as one boolit for the 2 cartridges, you're not gonna ever be happy with just one. Something in the 100 grs area for the 25-35 with a FN would be fine. I wouldn't get all het up over the WFN thing, looks great on paper, can be a feeding issue, especially in a repeater. just as any wide nosed boolit can do. I have 45 B+M design that predates Verals WFN idea by about 60 years. They can be a bear to load in a SA, so I can't help but wonder about a levergun. They are fine if you really have your heart set on one, but no matter how wide the nose, you're still only going to poke a 1/4" hole in whatever you shoot. On small game and varmints it doesn't seem to matter so much, on deer...shot placement is KEY! A simple flat nose seems to work just fine on coyotes in the 25, 6.5 and 7mm's. Finding one in the weight range you want is something else again.

I think you'll find the 25/20 with a 65-75 gr FN boolit kills all out of proportion for it's size. It's way too much for grey squirrels at about 1400 FPS- head shots only! Kills coyote size stuff very well within 100 yards. My limited experience with the 25-20 in a Savage 23 says the Lyman 258420 works better than the 258312. The 257306 is the Holy Grail for 25/35 shooters, but I've yet to see one in the flesh. The Cramer 55A is even better IMO, and I've got one of those, just need to find time to play with it!!!

[UBER7MM]

I agreee with the other members' posts:

If you have a 1:14 twist barrel then a 68-75 grain bullet is advisable.
If you have a 1:13 twist barrel then you can go up to a 86 grain bullet.

You probably want to go with GCs as well.

The 25-20 are fun to shoot, and reload. They don't take much powder at all. Min and max loads can be only a few grains apart.

Enjoy,

[LtFrankDrebbin]

If you have not done so already might I suggest you have a look at the Marlin owners forum. There is a 25-20 reloders thread in the reloading section with a huge amount of info all about the 25-20.
I am currently using two boolits in my Win 92 that has an after market barrel witha 1:13 twist.
A plain base 80gn FP from CBE that so far works best with Trail Boss @ 1150fps MV.
Makes a great range load/ plinker that will shoot 1 1/4" groups at 50 meters no problem.

My main feild load uses the RCBS 25-85 cowboy boolit. It took some work to make it shoot, under 1300 fps MV it will tumble over 1450fps leading and gas cutting start so I have a fine window there.
With a very light tumble lube in LLA, dacron filler, AR 2205 ( similar to 4227) it will shoot three shot clover's at 50 meters.

The lyman 257-420 is my must get mould. I have that feeling that boolit will out perform all.

Good luck with your 25's, that little WCF is an awsome little cartridge.

[Marvin S]

For the 25-20 go read the over 60 pages of post at MO fourms as posted above. For the 25-35 there is the RCBS 117 ish grain that is ment for it. The squirrels in my avitar are from the RD 85gr.

[cwlongshot]

Thanks guys. I think I'm in INFORMATION OVERLOAD!!! ;) Its a GOOD THING!!!

I haven't read MO in some time, I am a member for some time, juts not a frequent visitor...

Anyone try the Ranch dog 25cal bullet?

Maybe I'll see if I can buy a couple hundred of the light slugs to try before diving in with the mould.

Sorry to read of the RCBS Cowboy bullet.. I liked the "look"...

Can anyone suggest a place online to pick up some 75+ - g bullets?

CW

[35remington]

To see if your rifle will stabilize them, you might try Meister's 85 grain offering. It's longer than average, but not as long as some.

If it's no go at the 1100 fps range, try it at around 1400 before you give up on the idea of an 85 and 1-14 twist. You might be doing so a bit prematurely, even with a plainbase bullet.

You will have absolutely no trouble stabilizing and getting good groups from a gascheck 85 in a 1-14 twist due to a higher velocity ceiling. So don't give up on a 85 as suitable unless velocity is discussed, and unless you've tried a plainbase 85 first at 1100 to 1400. If it doesn't do well at the slower velocity, it will likely be fine in the 1500 plus range......because that's what factory loads got, and most of those sold were with 86 grain bullets.

IMO the talk of an 85 to 86 grain bullet being unsuitable across the board in a 1-14 twist is premature. I've been fortunate to work with a 1-14 lever recently, and that just ain't so.

The RD bullet has a meplat almost as large as the RCBS 85 FN and is a good shooter. The NOE "copy" (which isn't all that close to a copy) that was made in the group buy does well also.

[atr]

I am shooting the 65 gr gas check Lyman in my 25-20 (savage model 23) with 4227......shoots well !
I gave up to trying to get decent accuracy using the heavier 85 gr RCBS plain base...
so all the advice about staying with lighter boolits is well founded !
atr

[35remington]

atr, it seems to be more a problem of some guys having trouble with that particular RCBS bullet rather than the weight itself.

FWIW.

The 1-14 I've been shooting recently likes the Lyman 257312, and that makes the RCBS bullet look short.

[Irascible]

Meister bullets hase the 85gr RCBS bullet which is quite accurate in my 1894 Marlin CL. At the right OAL length the base is a bit below the neck, but it doesn't seem to affect it. I recently started testing with the Ranch Dog/Lee 6 cavity. It is also 85gr and was designed not to go below the case neck. I ordered mine as a plain base so I don't have to fool with those tiny gas checks. So far it seems as accurate as the RCBS. My favorite loads are 5.5gr of 2400 with SP primers and 10.5gr of 5744 with SP mag primers. The 5744 load is also extremely accurate with the Speer 75gr bullet.

[plainsman456]

N.O.E had a group buy for a 80 grain boolit that is made for 25-20.
He may still have some for sale.I have been playing with them in my 25x39 and the groups are better than I thought I would have out of the box.

They do some fine work on their molds.Check their web site out.

[Bret4207]

To be clear- it's not that 80-90 gr boolit won't work, it's that they don't seem to work as well as some of the shorter ones. An 85 or 90 gr in a SWC or blunt FP might be like the 75 gr designed and be a snap.

[35remington]

I've seen enough to suggest that they at least be given a try rather than avoided entirely as has been implied. Given at least reasonable velocity, my results suggest that 1-14 is plenty of twist for an 85-86 grain bullet. Some of these designs are not all that long in that weight.

Perhaps the Savages are picky, but what I've been shooting isn't a Savage, and the OP has a couple of rifles in 25-20 that aren't. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet if the OP can get some to try out before investing in a mould.

"Short bullets only" is too limiting IME.

[Bret4207]

35, the guy was looking for a 100 grain 25/20 boolit. That has morphed into a thread that, I agree, seems to say stay away from the heavier boolits for 25/20. I have to back track and correct myself since that's not what I intended to say. My fault. I should have said the under 85 gr stuff makes life a lot easier. The 85-90 gr stuff can work if they aren't too long, but my mind was on his "100 gr WFN" which it's very doubtful would fly well from a 25/20. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[runfiverun]

things wander and get a bit sidetracked easily.
my recommendation for the 70 ish area was not because i have had any issues with heavier [i use a 72 gr plainbase rapine over 11.5 grs of aa-2230 btw]
it's just that 70-5 gr area is bout right in the 25-20 and he does also have the 25-35.
which will handle the bigger boolits easily.
100 gr boolits shortchanges both cartridges,and will complicate things in the 25-20.

[bbqncigars]

I'll just add that my 1894 Marlin 25-20 just loves the 85gr Meisters with either 5.5gr of 2400 or 6.5gr of H4227. I like my little cowboy enough to have bought a Hornady AP press just to feed it. The 25-20 rocks.

[35remington]

Bret, I certainly agree that the way the original post was phrased one could "read into" it in any way possible, including weight, and that I took the 85 weight and sort of ran with it. And I also agree 100 grains is not a typical 25-20 weight. I kind of missed that, and that would be getting on the heavy side for certain.

I've just had pretty good results with the 85's.

Right now I'm starting to accumulate more 25-20 moulds than I really need, but certainly no more than I want. I finally got lucky and found an original 257283 and am having fun with it now.

I'm starting to suspect throating and chamber variations more than1-14 twist as the major contributor to what a 25-20 will shoot and what it will not, but of course YMMV.

[cwlongshot]

I mentioned the heavier slugs as I hopped to use the bullet in both the 25/35 and 25/20. I realize its a heavy weight for the lil 20 and a LWT for the 35....

I have been loading for the 25-20 for almost as long as its bigger brother the 32 20 and the 25-35 the shortest. Never with lead in the 25/35. ONLY lead in one 32-20 and one 25-20. My marlins LOVE jacketed too much to change! The 25 shoots the 75 Speer into beautifully small groups, same for the 32 with the only 100G Speer. I switched to the 115 Speer meant for the 327 and its good but no better then the XTP's...

Of the two "lead" guns My favorite 32WCF is a Win '92 rifle (late '20's gun, rough shape) I load a Bull X 115 Moly bullet with PB powder at under 1000 fps. The 25 is a Savage 23 also a 20's gun in about the same condition. But shoots very well. Both bores have seen better days and many shots fired.

The 25/20 is a SS custom barreled H&R. I have shot some 100 and 117 jacketed bullets. Both shoot well, but I prefer to load with the Hornady 117 RN... OR maybe a good lead slug... down the road. ;)

Thank you for all the help and comments.

CW

[Good Cheer]

257325 for the 25-35.
:happy dance:

[Bent Ramrod]

Probably the best compromise, if you must have only one mould, is an 87-gr boolit with a lot of shank and a short nose.

The .25-35 has a pretty steep twist and a longish throat as it was set up for 117 gr roundnose bullets. you would have to seat the 87-gr boolit out quite a bit.

The original .25-20, as invented by Rabbeth and advocated by A. C. Gould, was envisioned as an express-type hunting cartridge using 77-gr bullets. The rifles came out according to the specifications that they had developed, but the factories, for reasons nobody could fathom, loaded the 87 grain bullets instead of the 77-gr. "Thus," said Mr. Gould in Modern American Rifles, "A superior hunting cartridge was turned into an indifferent target cartridge." The 87-gr should shoot OK in your 23B, but it might be easier to hit things at the outer edge of its effective range if you traded some of that excess weight and momentum for velocity and lower trajectory.

If your custom H&R .25-20 has a 10-inch twist instead of the usual 14, you could certainly get a 100-grain mould, maybe even a 110-gr, and use it for both. The higher trajectory would still be there, but there would be no worries about stability in flight. It probably wouldn't work in the 23B very well, though.

[303Guy]

Isn't the 25-20 one of those cartridges with just the right case capacity to boolit base area and sectional density to take advantage of the crazy characteristics of Lil'Gun powder? The heavier boolit might produce a flatter trajectory and more hitting power (within twist rate limitations). A heavier boolit also has the advantage of being able to burn slower powders properly without too much neck tension. Slower and denser powders means more performance.

[Bret4207]

Probably the best compromise, if you must have only one mould, is an 87-gr boolit with a lot of shank and a short nose.

The .25-35 has a pretty steep twist and a longish throat as it was set up for 117 gr roundnose bullets. you would have to seat the 87-gr boolit out quite a bit.

The original .25-20, as invented by Rabbeth and advocated by A. C. Gould, was envisioned as an express-type hunting cartridge using 77-gr bullets. The rifles came out according to the specifications that they had developed, but the factories, for reasons nobody could fathom, loaded the 87 grain bullets instead of the 77-gr. "Thus," said Mr. Gould in Modern American Rifles, "A superior hunting cartridge was turned into an indifferent target cartridge." The 87-gr should shoot OK in your 23B, but it might be easier to hit things at the outer edge of its effective range if you traded some of that excess weight and momentum for velocity and lower trajectory.

If your custom H&R .25-20 has a 10-inch twist instead of the usual 14, you could certainly get a 100-grain mould, maybe even a 110-gr, and use it for both. The higher trajectory would still be there, but there would be no worries about stability in flight. It probably wouldn't work in the 23B very well, though.

Just read that same passage the other day myself! Thing is, Gould was talking about the 25/20 Single Shot, not the 25/20 Winchester Center Fire. The SS is a larger case than the 32/20 that 25/20 was based on and came out around 1895 in the M-92 Winchester. The 25/20SS was too long to work in the action of the 92.

[Bent Ramrod]

Bret,

True, Gould was talking about the "original" .25-20, or, as they called it then, "the .25 Caliber." The rifling twist rates of both were within an inch of each other, IIRC. The SS was longer than the Repeater, but it was kind of skinny, with a base diameter like a .32 Long Colt vs the .32-20 base for the Repeater. The internal capacities of both cases are close enough so most of the same loadings work for both. So I figured the results from the original would reply to the repeater cartridge.

Mr. Gould was, like the moderators here, not shy about writing Finis to the passionate exchanges of correspondents to his magazine once they got too emotional. But I can almost hear a well-bred sniff of disgust coming out of him when I read those words about the hunting vs. target cartridge.:smile:

The one exception to the similarity of loadings of the two cartridges might be the "Single Shot Express" loads that some people were trying in the '30's. I've never found any writings from anybody who tried to duplicate those in the Repeater. Of course the "SS Express" was apparently only a passing fancy as well.

[Bret4207]

Well, I don't know if you'd consider it an express loading, but a 60 gr boolit or bullet at 2300ish FPS is pretty quick!

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders.html

check that link out, written by our own 35Remington

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[35remington]

I've had pretty good luck with Lilgun in the 25-20, and it appears to be fairly position insensitive. That's helpful as it does not occupy much case space.

I must say that little loading data exists, though, so anything I could suggest in that regard may not conform to the low 28,000 psi range as suggested by the manuals for my warmer loads. In a single shot I've run 75's at 2200 to 2250 fps and 87's over 2000 fps with little sign of strain or shortened case life, but then that's in a Contender that would take these in stride anyway. I would like to see data for Lilgun and the 25-20 but won't hold my breath as little demand probably exists for it in this cartridge.......which is a shame.

But then I haven't quite figured out Lilgun and its speed/pressure relationship. All results in other similar capacity cartridges suggest low pressure at standard to high velocities. When John Goins (Beagle) mentioned that he was trying it in lower velocity loads I tried it for that use as well, with my bottom end loadings getting just under 1500 fps, which is as fast as I can go with a plainbase bullet and still get decent groups.

I'm reluctant to go any lower. But it does seem pretty versatile.