Accuracy? Am I expecting too much?

[tomme boy]

I have started to load boolits in my 308 win here about a month ago. I have had a few successes and a bunch of failures. It seems that if I try to speed them up at all, the groups go to 12"+. I have had good luck with 16-17grs of 2400 with whatever I load it with. I have one load with 5477 at 22grs with a RCBS 200gr boolit. If I go .5gr faster, it goes from a 1" group to about 4"s.

I am running a fairly hard lead an water dropping the boolits. It is a range lead an Lino mix at 3 to 1 lino with a little extra tin added. I cannot scratch the lead at all. I am using Hornady checks. I size an lube an seat the checks in a RCBS luber. I am using Tac 1 for lube.

I am also NOT sorting any of the boolits for weight. I look for defects an thats about it.

I want to be able to speed these up so to be able to shoot farther. I am looking for any an all tips that I can get. I think they are becoming unstable right now at longer ranges as they pass threw the trans sonic range. Thus the reason for speeding them up. The barrel was shortened an a new crown was put on. The gun will shoot in the .3's with j-words. So I don't think it is the guns fault. It does not look like there is any leading. So I guess that can be ruled out.

[geargnasher]

I'm guessing you don't have a chronograph?

Gear

[.22-10-45]

Hello, tomme boy. I don't load for .308, but do for .30-40 Krag..which is very close case cap. Using Ideal 311413 with 18.5gr. IMR4227 gave best acccuracy..increasing charge also increased groups. the 4227's are fast burners like your 2400. I have been working with an old German Mauser sporting rifle in
7X57. I wanted hunting velocity with a Leeth copy of Lyman 311041 scaled down....but with a far softer alloy than yours. Using H4895, I started low & gradually worked up. The heaver the charge..the better it shot. Now this is only a 6 1/2 lb. rifle, & my shoulder is telling me to stop..but I am well up into the jacketed bullet charge weights. accuracy is 1 1/4" at 100yds. using a very old Zeis 4X post. No leading at all. The slower powders are more forgiving when going for higher velocity. I need to tweak loads to see if I can improve grouping..& chrono for speed.

[303Guy]

You be interested in having a look at the smokeless paper patch section. I'm not sure going hard is always a good thing. You should be able to drive a cast boolit to around 1900 fps with a slow powder and enough of it.

Here is a 50yd three shot 'group' with cast and a 'light' load of Varget.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-457F_edited.jpg

A second group was the same. Estimate velocity was 1800fps. Boolit weight was either 245gr or 220gr. I thing the former. That was in a 303 Brit with a longer throat and 1-in-10 twist barrel.

This is what my loaded boolits looked like.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-338F_edited.jpg

These boolits have no lube grooves and are dipped into molten 'waxy-lube'. That's beside the point, it's what launches the boolit into the bore that dictates the velocity achievable with accuracy. Slower powder equals higher velocity.

[bowenrd]

The avatar on the left is a group fired from my Rem M700 30-06 at 100 yds using a 311284 mould gas checked and IMR SR4759 at about 1600 fps.

It may take you another month to find the right recipe for your rifle. Don't give up.

[GRUMPA]

I was having what I'll call issues when I started experimenting with cast in my 06 and here's my .02 on it. The rifle itself (mine) worked very well with J-Words but not worth a hoot with lead, didn't matter hard or soft it was always the same disappointment. I was using the 311291 mould and found out that after casting that the boolit bent and required me to inspect all of them with an indicator. I know it sounds anal but that's one of the things I did, and only got a 1% keeper rate.

Powder is 1 of the trickiest little pain in the neck issue I had, it amazed me that 1 powder out of the 12-15 I tried worked worth a darn. Then I found out that brand "x" worked well at 1800FPS that at 1900fps ranked right up there in the it sux dept. It took me around just over a year off and on to find the right powder and what speed it worked best at.

The brass I got was all from one lot and all of that is kept separate, all of which was worked to be the same from one to the other and is only used for that rifle.

The rifle although worked very well with J-Words did require it's own work, action and floating the barrel.

In the end what I thought was going to be easy wasn't, although I did learn more than I thought I would by really getting into my little project. Along the way I learned that each rifle has its own personality and what works on 1 won't work on the other the same way.

Since I got the rifle to shoot very well in the end with the 311291 cast I must love the challenge, I ordered a new heavy weight boolit mould from NOE and when I get I'll be doing it all over again.

[captaint]

tomme - If it were me, I would (and I have) get a copy of Ken Waters Pet Loads and go through it and find some more loads. Hey, yo know the gun will shoot. Different boolit maybe ?? So many variables. enjoy Mike

[curator]

Paper-patching can get you there. With regular cast bullets, get and read (twice if you have time) Veral Smith's book: "Jacketed bullet performance with cast bullets." His methods work for higher velocity with accuracy. http://lbtmoulds.com/books.shtml

[pdawg_shooter]

As said above, paper patching will give you jacketed accuracy and velocity, if done correctly.

[PuppetZ]

I load for a 30-06. I have been using both the Lee c309-180-R and the C312-155-2R with 30-35gn H4895 with good success. I even charged a 180gn J-word max load for the H4895 FOR THE c309-180-r with quite good result. I use straight WW WD lubed with a homemade semi-soft lube. I get an avg of 1-1/4" group at 100m out of my R700 SPS. This combination did me good so far.

Frank

[tomme boy]

I am not trying for jacketed velocity. I would like to get about 2-2.2K range if possible. The problem is it seems that as soon as I get to about the 1.7K range it falls apart.

I am going to try sorting by weight first to see what that does. Some of the powders I have tried. H4895, imr4895, unique, red dot, imr4227, H4350, H4831, RL19, Varget, 5477, imr7625.

No, I do not have a chrony anymore. I sabot from a shotgun took care of that for me a few years back.

One other thing, Lube. I am using RandyRats Tac 1. I know this is a new lube. Is this something that may be causing some problems. I have not seen much for reviews on it as it is new. I can't really give it a review as I don't know.

[GRUMPA]

One other thing, Lube. I am using RandyRats Tac 1. I know this is a new lube. Is this something that may be causing some problems. I have not seen much for reviews on it as it is new. I can't really give it a review as I don't know.

The only way to know the right answer is to try different lubes and find out. I know it's not what you want to hear but it's the truth. On all my cast boolits I used in my 06 I only used LBT Blue lube which has done very well for me with anything I use. But I have yet to try much of anything else and I have read about that lube and want to give it whirl and see for myself how well it works for me.

[Bret4207]

I assume you've de-coppered the barrel and that you are shooting a GC boolit with the GC on, right? I think you're wasting a lot of lino and tin on that hard alloy, but to each their own. What are you sizing at? Any idea on barrel dimensions? Nose dimension? Have you tried just the one design or more than one? How's your alignment, boolit run out that is?

[geargnasher]

Stop thinking about powder and lube and start thinking about fit and loading techniques.

Gear

[Longwood]

Stop thinking about powder and lube and start thinking about fit and loading techniques.

Gear

I agree.
Loading methods and techniques can cause or cure as many problems as Lube or powder.
If you don't believe it, try the "Easy to work up a load with" copper jacketed bullets.
Not near as many issues as with cast but they can be just as mind boggling sometimes.
One thing that helped me,, was to only do one small change at a time.
I would load ten or twenty one way, then another until I filled a 100 round box. It was common to take two boxes of rounds to test, to the range at one time.

[ipijohn]

Stop thinking about powder and lube and start thinking about fit and loading techniques.

Gear


+1 on Gears' comment. Fit and loading technique are the major contributors to success.

[tomme boy]

The 200 gr RCBS SIL is a tapered design. It fits the throat fairly well. I am seating it jammed into the rifling. I am sizing the boolits to 0.310" My barrel measures 308x 300.

And yes, I have de coppered the barrel. I used the foaming bore cleaner 5x's on it an let it sit over night each time. The last time nothing came out. I then used JB bore paste and kroil to make sure one time. Then I used Hoppes to clean the paste an Kroil out.

My brass is FL sized and trimmed to min. length. I then size the neck with a RCBS neck expander die at 0.309" I have my seating die set to remove the bell. All of the brass has been sorted by head stamp. I have also used a primer reamer to remove the burr on the inside an uniform the primer hole.

I have seen that the 200 gr seems to like being jammed hard into the rifling. The 165 gr bullets I have are the same. But these seem to go to heck faster than the 200 gr. I have a single cavity 200 gr Lee but that is a major pain to cast with. I have not tried to shoot any of these yet.

I have made a impact cast of my throat and chamber that I am going to send to Tom @ Accurate Molds. I just have to get some $ somehow. So for now I just need to make these work.

Is the weight sorting that big of a deal?

[tomme boy]

I am loading 10 of each at a time. I am doing the powder at 1 gr increase.

[Larry Gibson]

tomme boy

Notice everyone is giving you accurate loads with regular cast bullets they use in the 1600 - 1900 fps range? There is a reason for it.

You are simply running into the RPM threshold for your rilfe's twist and the components you are using. If your rifles barrel twist is 10" then you must do everything right to get best accuracy at the top end of the RPM threshold for that twist (1850 - 1950) fps. If your rifle has a 12" twist then the top end of the RPM threshold will be in the 2000 - 2200 fps range. To get into that velocity range and maintain consistent 2 moa or better accuracy at 100 - 200 yards+ with regular cast bullets you must do every thing right.

You'll want to;

Use fire formed cases neck sized.

Use cases at max length for your chamber's neck not some hypothetical "minimum length".

Probably use a medium to hard alloy in the 16 - 22 BHN range.

Make sure the GCs are completely seated and square to axis of bullet.

Use a shorter, stubbier bullet with minimal tight bore riding nose in the 160 - 200 gr weight range.

Use a medium to slow burning powder in the 4895 to RL22 range suited to the weight of the bullet used.

Use a dacron filler if loading density is less than 85%.

Use a low viscosity lube such as the 50/50 NRA (Javelina) or Lars 2500+.

Might want to try sizing at .311.

Don't seat GCs below then case neck.

Probably several more suggestions but those should get you started. If you want to get into the 2000 - 2200 fps range as stated then a 311466, LBT 150 gr or the RCBS 168 SIL bullets are your best bet in the .308W. With a 10" twist you might want to lower that expectation to 1900 - 2000 fps but if your rifle is has a 12" twist then 2000 - 2200 fps while maintaining 2 moa accuracy is doable with standard cast bullets as mentioned. Of course PPing, as mentioned, will get you there also which may be the best choice to get higher velocity if that's what you want to do.

Larry Gibson

[KYCaster]

I am not trying for jacketed velocity. I would like to get about 2-2.2K range if possible. The problem is it seems that as soon as I get to about the 1.7K range it falls apart.


I have seen that the 200 gr seems to like being jammed hard into the rifling. The 165 gr bullets I have are the same. But these seem to go to heck faster than the 200 gr. I have a single cavity 200 gr Lee but that is a major pain to cast with. I have not tried to shoot any of these yet.



Rifleing twist? 1:10 ?

Check out Larry Gibson's "RPM Threshold". He gets a lot flack about it, but your results fit right in with his theory.

Jerry

[canyon-ghost]

Good thought:


You are simply running into the RPM threshold for your rilfe's twist and the compnants you are using.

Twist rate is going to effect lead quite a bit, especially if the barrel is rifled for jacketed.

[tomme boy]

I have tried some of the med an slow powders. They were the worst of all. The H4831 was the worst. It was getting some blowby an when I increased the loads they got even worse. I was using dacron as a filler also. One showed some promise. It was with H4350. I am going to re do some of the testing in .5gr lots. It was right around 35 grs. I have to go back an check my notes an targets.

[tomme boy]

The twist is a 1-12"

[Larry Gibson]

The twist is a 1-12"

Good, there is real potential for 2000 - 2200 fps then.

However, you must do everything right. Let's work with the 200 gr SIL bullet 1st.

Alloy?

The nose needs to be a tight fit in the bore with slight engraving?


I suggest the following;

Use a GC seater to seat the GCs seperately.

Push through a .311 sizer (Lee) to crimp the GC.

Lube in a .311 H die assuming a lubrisizer?

Switch to a known lube such as Lars 50/50 or 2500+.

Use a .31 Lyman M die.

Make a chamber cast to measure the neck length. Parafin works fine for this. Use fire formed cases with the necks at max length for the chamber neck.

Neck size the cases. A bushing die or the Lee Collet die work best for this as you want to size the necks only enough so the .31 M die barely touches the inside of the necks.

Powder; see if you can find some AA4350, if not then lets start off with 4895 1st.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

The 200 gr RCBS SIL is a tapered design. It fits the throat fairly well. I am seating it jammed into the rifling. I am sizing the boolits to 0.310" My barrel measures 308x 300.

And yes, I have de coppered the barrel. I used the foaming bore cleaner 5x's on it an let it sit over night each time. The last time nothing came out. I then used JB bore paste and kroil to make sure one time. Then I used Hoppes to clean the paste an Kroil out.

My brass is FL sized and trimmed to min. length. I then size the neck with a RCBS neck expander die at 0.309" I have my seating die set to remove the bell. All of the brass has been sorted by head stamp. I have also used a primer reamer to remove the burr on the inside an uniform the primer hole.

I have seen that the 200 gr seems to like being jammed hard into the rifling. The 165 gr bullets I have are the same. But these seem to go to heck faster than the 200 gr. I have a single cavity 200 gr Lee but that is a major pain to cast with. I have not tried to shoot any of these yet.

I have made a impact cast of my throat and chamber that I am going to send to Tom @ Accurate Molds. I just have to get some $ somehow. So for now I just need to make these work.

Is the weight sorting that big of a deal?

Okay, Larry has got you going in the right direction, but that line I put in bold makes me wonder. Why does it want to be jammed hard into the rifling? That just screams problems to me. If you are having to jam it into the rifling- is that to get decent grouping or to get better ignition? For that matter, it can be the same thing, or it can be a fit issue having little to do with ignition and burn.

What does that boolit do in the 1600 fps range? That's where I'd start and work up from there.

I think you have some fit issues with that boolit and the hard alloy may not be letting it impact fit from obturation. I'd try it softer if it were me and see what happens.

[tomme boy]

I tried the first time just range lead water dropped. I am jamming them hard into the rifling to get a better group. They shot worse if they were just touching. I had to do the same thing on one gun shooting Berger VLD's. They did not like to jump. I have some Federal match primers I was going to try next also. I am going to load them in a couple batches. One with the CCI I have been using an one with the Federal Gold Medal match primers.

Booth the 165 and the 200 shoot into 1" groups with the 16gr 2400 load. I'm sure that is in the 1600 range as everyone talks about it. My barrel is 22" long and I don't have a chrony.

[runfiverun]

re-read post number 24.
the nose engraving is essential playing with the alloy to get it to engrave tightly and then de-chamber will make a big difference.
310 on the body won't be much different than 311 and 15 bhn won't be much different than 18 bhn.
the key is the nose engraving then the transition from case to bbl being as smooth and gentle as possible and then the acceleration.
there are a lot of things to make this difficult but knowing your sizes will make things much easier.
established loads like 16-18 grs of 2400 and 28-30 grs of imr 4895 [with and without a filler] will make things easier too.

[tomme boy]

I am reading an taking in everything. But, I have to use an get by with what I have as to equipment.

I have the LEE collet die. I use this on all of the brass after the first firing. I am Using the RCBS neck expander with the 0.309" plug. I also have the 0.310" one but I felt it did not have enough neck tension. Maybe I should switch back?? I am seating the gas check an sizing an lubing on a RCBS Lam II. I am expaning the mouth just enough to get the GC in the mouth about half of the GC thickness. I have my seating die set to just get rid of the flair. The seating die is a Hornady. It has a sleeve that aligns the boolit, so it should be going in straight.

I was going to try the Match primer as stated above as I have seen them to make a big difference when I used them in jacketed loads. I am also trimming the brass after every firing. I have also seen this to make a big difference. That way the boolit releases the same every time.

I really appreciate all of the help. There is a big learning curve to lead an I thought I knew some of it from loading an shooting lead out of my 1911. But rifle seems to have a lot more to it.

[geargnasher]

I am reading an taking in everything. But, I have to use an get by with what I have as to equipment.

I have the LEE collet die. I use this on all of the brass after the first firing. I am Using the RCBS neck expander with the 0.309" plug. I also have the 0.310" one but I felt it did not have enough neck tension. Maybe I should switch back?? I am seating the gas check an sizing an lubing on a RCBS Lam II. I am expaning the mouth just enough to get the GC in the mouth about half of the GC thickness. I have my seating die set to just get rid of the flair. The seating die is a Hornady. It has a sleeve that aligns the boolit, so it should be going in straight.

I was going to try the Match primer as stated above as I have seen them to make a big difference when I used them in jacketed loads. I am also trimming the brass after every firing. I have also seen this to make a big difference. That way the boolit releases the same every time.

I really appreciate all of the help. There is a big learning curve to lead an I thought I knew some of it from loading an shooting lead out of my 1911. But rifle seems to have a lot more to it.

Looks like a fairly decent procedure you're doing. I don't see why you have to trim cases every firing if you're using the collet die, I get at least five firings before I have to do anything, and then only to re-square the case mouths.

Try flaring the neck until the gas check sits flush, rather than halfway.

The biggest problem I think you have is the nose of the boolit doesn't fit the leade and is too hard/brittle.

I would start over with a 50% WW 50% pure lead alloy and water-quench them from a HOT mould, or oven heat treat them. In a few weeks they should be about 18 bhn and very TOUGH, yet still soft enough for hunting. Too much tin and too much antimony make a boolit that can leave metal fouling in the bore and shear when engraving rather than swage into the rifling.

Gear

[1Shirt]

Listen to Gear,Larry, and Bret, and you won't go wrong! Sound words of wisdom based on experiance.
1Shirt!

[Larry Gibson]

I tried the first time just range lead water dropped.

Alloy is questionable, probably to soft with an imbalance of antimony to tin. I've used lots of range lead over the years (currently have over 1000 lbs of it) but unless you know the lead/antimony/tin composition it takes some adusting to make a good alloy for loads in the 1600 - 2000 fps range. I add tin and additional lead to mine to bring the tin/antimony in balance with each other. WC'd the BHN only gets into the 16 - 17s. I suggest, as mentioned, you use a more "known" alloy such as COWWs with 2% tin added. WQ'd the BHN with be in the 20 - 24, casting and mould fill out will be good also. That is a proven alloy for where you want to go, so is linotype although mix it at 70 or 80 to 30 or 20 with lead for such bullets for the loads you want.

Right now I see the alloy as the problem.

It is also very, very easy to bed or distort a long bullet like the 200 gr when cast of a softer alloy such as you are using when sizing/seating GC (particularly if done in the same operation) with a RCBS or Lyman lubrasizer. It is also easy to do if the case neckes are sized to small when seating the bullets.

I also still suggest;

if the bullets cast at .311(+) then size at .311 and use the .310 expander.

Don't trim the cases, you want the case neck to fill up the chamber neck to alleviate the bullet obturating into the chamber neck area on accelleration and then getting sized back down by the throat/bore. That will do nothing but detract from accuracy potential. With the alloy you are using I've no doubt that is happening.

You've a rifle of known accuracy potential. Your cast bullets prove accurate at 1600 fps. That they are not above that with a 12" twist using the powders you've used tells me the problem is with the bullet alloy and what is happening to it as you drive/push it harder. Let's solve that problem before we move onto all the other variables?

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

With range lead, water dropped, I have had hardness (w/cabin tree tester) of between 10 and 16 BH. It depends on what is being shot down range, and I doubt if range pickups per se will ever be close to consistant without alloy modification.
1Shirt!

[Bret4207]

It is also very, very easy to bed or distort a long bullet like the 200 gr when cast of a softer alloy such as you are using when sizing/seating GC (particularly if done in the same operation) with a RCBS or Lyman lubrasizer. It is also easy to do if the case neckes are sized to small when seating the bullets.



Exactly why I was asking about run out/alignment.

[Willyp]

Tomme boy, what make of 308 do you have that has a 1 in 12 twist?

[tomme boy]

Savage action, with a barrel from a older Remington PSS that was unfired. I rethreaded an chambered it for the Savage.

[Willyp]

I have a good idea that you will figure it out!!!!!!

[1Shirt]

You might also want to read some of Paco Kelly's articles on cast!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[leadman]

Don't dismiss the slower powders like 4350 and 4831. I use these in my Savage 30-06 with the 314299 sized .310" for the 30-06. The lower end of the powder charges were so-so. When I started getting velocity up over 2,000 fps things started to fall into place.

I ended up using IMR4350 with just about a max amount for a jacketed bullet and got over 2,500 fps with groups running from 1" to 1 1/2". This load does require the use of a bore brush after each 5 shot clip. Not a load I normally shoot as it has alot of recoil.

I also have some factory jacketed equilvant loads in the 30-30 Contender with the 311041 that weighs 170grs. I use H4895 for this.

I would weigh all of your boolits to weed out any with internal voids. I usually use boolits sorted as an example all fall in the 170gr range (170.0 to 170.9grs). This is normally good enough unless I want the finest accuracy I can get.
I think with the help here you will get this sorted out.

[tomme boy]

I tried the 4350 an 4831. The H4831 was a complete failure. It first started out with not enough psi to seal the brass. All kinds of black on the case walls. When it finally sealed up, the group could be measured in feet. The H4350 is going to be tried again. I just kept getting fliers with it. 4 would go into less than a 1" group, but 1 would always be about 2 to 4 inches out.

I need to get a hold of a chronograph to see where I am at. I have 3 loads right now that are shooting right at 1" at 100yds.

200 gr RCBS SIL with 5744 at 22 grs. an another at 16 grs. of 2400
200 gr LEE with 5744 at 21 grs. an another at 16 grs. of 2400 an one of 26 grs of H4895

I have a few more that I need to go check again. Anyone care to guess what the above speeds are running?

I have like 10 lbs of RL15. Anyone ever try this one?

[Larry Gibson]

tomme boy

Those loads are going to be in the 1700 to 1900 fps range. I suspect, since that's where your best accuracy is and accuracy goes south above that, the barrel is actually a 10" twist. A 10" twist was quite common in the .308W for a while with a lotof manufacturers, still is with so. Remington used a 10" twist in .308W barrels until the lascouple years when they switched to a 12" twist (exception being the M40X barrels). If your barrel is from a older Remington PSS that was unfired then it may very well be a 10" twist barrel.

Larry Gibson

[white eagle]

to answer your question yes you are expecting to much out of a lead boolit.
some guns just wont deliver in the accuracy dept with cast no matter what..case in point I have a Marlin gg in 45-70 ,a cast shooting match made in heaven rite?/wrong!Will not give me the accuracy I expect with cast so I have since switched to jacketed bullets.
I had this same conversation about a year ago and the consensus was that my accuracy standard were to high for cast so maybe open up your parameters and you will get the accuracy you are looking for
Best of luck

[Char-Gar]

Tommie...You can take Larry's post (#19) to the bank as the real thing. I will only polish it a little with a couple of comments.

1. I have 4 .308 rifles, a Remington 700 VHS, 2 Winchester 88s and a Savage 16. The Remington and Winchesters have 1-12 barrels and the Savage goes 1-10. The twist makes all the difference when you are going for high end cast bullet loads.

2. Fast powders like 2400, 4227, 4759 and the like start to roll snake eyes in the accuracy department when velocities get much above 1,800 fps. Go higher and you will need a medium rate powder.

3. Larry is also right that when you go 2K and above with any rifles, there is no room for error of any kind. Below that number, rifles and cast bullets are forgiving. Above that number they are not.

Best of luck..Charles

[Longwood]

When I was competing at shooting steel rams with handguns at 220 yards, not one shooter that shot cast, was competitive.
None of the shooters that did fairly well with cast bullets, used gas checks.

[tomme boy]

tomme boy

Those loads are going to be in the 1700 to 1900 fps range. I suspect, since that's where your best accuracy is and accuracy goes south above that, the barrel is actually a 10" twist. A 10" twist was quite common in the .308W for a while with a lotof manufacturers, still is with so. Remington used a 10" twist in .308W barrels until the lascouple years when they switched to a 12" twist (exception being the M40X barrels). If your barrel is from a older Remington PSS that was unfired then it may very well be a 10" twist barrel.

Larry Gibson

It is a 12" twist. I have measured it 4 times to make sure. It is about 7 years ago when I bought it. It was a new take off. Like I said, I am going to try some more with the LEE 200 gr. I t seems to like it. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=758&pictureid=5624

[newton]

I am going to speak out of the box here. I do not have that much experience with casting myself as of yet, been doing it less than a year. However, one thing I did find about shooting j bullets is sometimes a bullet likes to jump. And sometimes it REALLY likes to jump. I took a gun that no one ever had anything good to say about and made it shoot nice with a HUGE jump from case to rifling. One person told me about the fact that some guns like to use the case mouth for a good square start. Maybe it has something to do with the machining of the very start of the rifling?

But I say that to say this. I just tried some rounds last night that were "not" supposed to work so well from modern opinion. Now, I am not sure what they are running velocity wise, but I am guessing that they are above the rpm threshold. I may be wrong. I would love to have a chrony right now.

But what I did last night was to see where I need to set my OAL. I took the gun, put a loose boolit in a case and closed the bolt. It did not move. I moved it out further and further. Still nothing. But then I thought back to the other gun I had with a long "throat"(if you will). And so then I decided to just set it in the case up to the crimp groove on the boolit. I am sure that there is over a 1/4" of jump to the rifling, I am positive of it.

Well, they are shooting great. And I get to see how they perform at even longer distance tomorrow. But the moral of the story is just try some with them set in the case pretty far, and don't worry about the jump to rifling. Also, I do not flare my rifle necks for cast. I simply chamfer them and then ease the boolit into them. I never get lead shaving. But I also only use gas checks, which in reality is like seating a j bullet.

Something to think about. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Longwood]

It is not just a cast bullet thing, I would have to start over whenever I changed weights, and especially brands, when I was shooting jacketed bullets.
That is where the small press and box of goodies at the range come in handy.
I did like newton and made up brass that I could easily reload at the range and then seat the bullets with my fingers.
When I figured out where the bullet liked to be seated, I then worked on neck tension.

[skeettx]

Here is a copy of an older post

Hello All

I have been loading 308 with 311465 bullets of wheelweights Hornady Gas Check, Javalina lube, 4227 powder and CCI LR primer.

I was getting so so accuracy, insuring the powder was positioned at the base next to the primer hole.

Just so so accuracy, so I thought I would shoot them up quickly. Took them out of the 20 cartridge box , bullet facing DOWN, seated them in the gun (Remington 700 BDL Varmint Special) and low and behold, less than one inch five shot groups at 100 yards

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-021S18.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-025S13.JPG

Been doing this for 5 years now and still works, do not ask me how, but it works.
The powder is positioned behind the bullet.

Mike

[Larry Gibson]

It is a 12" twist. I have measured it 4 times to make sure. It is about 7 years ago when I bought it. It was a new take off. Like I said, I am going to try some more with the LEE 200 gr. I t seems to like it. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=758&pictureid=5624

Ok, then we'll go with that and improve the 200 gr loads.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

skeettx

With the 4227 powder in the front of the case it is held in one spot when the primer flash blasts into the case and it burns uniformly. Conversely when just tipped up the 4227 get blasted unevenly into the volume of the .308W case and does not burn consistently. That's why one is accurate and the other isn't. A dacron filler holding the powder consistently in one spot will give consistent ignition and the same good accuracy. Plus you don't have to tip the barrel to shoot.

The 311466 is also my favorite .30 cal bullet for accuracy, especially at HV.

Larry Gibson

[Photog]

My personal opinion is that load development goes MUCH easier and quicker with a chronograph. I spent years reloading and getting frustrated with the slow and tedious tasks of developing loads until I bought one. Changed how I look at my loads now. Been shooting 30 years, been handloading 15 and its night and day with a chrono. My estimates of speed were way off.

My first attempts at casting yielded great results, but I can say that some guns are just plain NOT accurate. I have a 22 that shoots 6"groups, and one that groups every type of ammo just super. Not every gun is capable of great accuracy, or takes so much experimenting as to not make it worth it (for those who have limited time).