1909 Argentine Carbine

[1mauser]

I just purchased a 1909 Argentine Mauser Carbinem cal. 7.65x53, that unfortunately it still on hold for the 11 days period. At the mean while I want to get the necessary hardware to have every thing ready for it. Can you give me some leads on mold makes and boolit weights, powder charges etc?
TIA
1mauser

[XBT]

My carbine shoots fine with boolits from a RCBS .30-180 SP. These drop from the mold at .310 and are not sized, just gas checked and lubed. They are slightly undersized for the bore, but still shoot into three or four inch groups at 100 yds. That’s as good as I can expect to shoot with most Mausers, using the open sights.

I have been using Alliant 2400 in about all my military rifles including the argentine, and it always performs well. Starting loads should be around 16 grns. I am currently using 22 grns. in my carbine and the velocity is around 1800 FPS.

Brass can easily be formed from .30-06 cases.

You really should have a .312 mold for this gun, but if you already have a .308 to 310 size mold give it a try, it might work.

Good luck, Jim

[StarMetal]

A very good bullet mould is the Lyman 324299, it's made specifically for the .303's, 7.7 Japs, and works great in the 7.65 Argentine. There's a 311299 but it's meant for the .308 calibers, although it and the 314299 are the same design.

Joe

[1mauser]

A very good bullet mould is the Lyman 324299, it's made specifically for the .303's, 7.7 Japs, and works great in the 7.65 Argentine. There's a 311299 but it's meant for the .308 calibers, although it and the 314299 are the same design.

Joe

Thanks guys, I'll follow your advice

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/E024462DE300D0F/standard.jpg

One of these? I have 2 of'em both Argentine manufacture and both are different in the barrel dimensions. If yous is German (DWM) manufacture it may well be closer to the .301x.312" design dimensions. One of mine has that bore-groove. The other is a weirdo with a .303x.314" barrel.

As was mentioned, the Ly 314299 would be a good mould to buy. Even if your groove comes in at .312" (or maybe even smaller?) you can size it down if it won't chamber at .314". If your groove is smaller you can then also get the Lee C312-185R, which is a nice boolit. Also the Lee soupcan C309-113F, as most find it to drop at about .312/.313" from their moulds.

Brass is no problem, as Graf & Son stocks 7.65x53 headstamped brass for about what 30-06 or 308 brass costs. Everyone makes size dies for it. If you should happen to run across a bunch of cheap 8x57 brass, this is easy to reform to the 7.65x53 as there isn't as much trimming to do as with 30-06.

Ballistics for the Argentine are very similar to the 308 Winchester and it's a fine cartridge. Only one thing some people consider a negative, is that the caseneck is real short. Shorter then the 308. If you can't find any cast boolit data specific to the cartridge, just use 308 data.

BTW, the 7.65x53 was Paul Mauser's first cartridge, used in the Belgium and Turk Mausers also (Turks switched to 8x57 later).

..............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

That neck is short, but not as bad as the 300 Savage and that turned out to be a fine round. I think the neck on the 7.65 although short is sufficient enough. It's not a bad round and like Buckeroo said it's dang close to the 308 in power. I believe the groove on my 1891 Engineers carbine is about .312.

Joe

[1mauser]

Buckshot,
The carbine that I got looks exactly like yours but it is made in Argentine. Are the bores different in between the Germans vs Argentinians?. How is the best way to make a chamber cast? in order to get the proper chamber-grove dimensions.
Thanks
1mauser

[Buckshot]

.............1mauser, mine are Argentine manufacture also. I mentioned the German ones as possibly having the tighter barrels as my experience with German rifles is they are generally 'At' or very darn close to what they're supposed to be.

Both my Cav carbines have excellent appearing barrels. Nice and shiny, sharp lands, great crowns. Yet they have the barrel discrepancies noted. While these are really well made, they lack that little extra that sets the German contract rifles apart. I will then figure that their barrel manufacturing also lacked 'That little something extra' :D. I'm sure they are both within tolerance, and might shoot equally well with FLGC type slugs.

Can't be negative about the Argentines though. Ruger used to buy barrels form an outside source and had accuracy issues. When Harry Pope was involved with the US Palma team he went to Springfield to oversee the production of thier rifles and was astounded at the bore/groove dimensions they were turning out. He was not pleased!

The easiest wasy to check your barrel's internals is to take a 30 cal cast lubed boolit and cut the nose off, so it's about 3/8" long or so. Just use some sidecutters. Mash the body lengthwise in the vise to bump it up to about .316" or such a matter. Drop it in the breech. With the muzzle on a board, drive the slug into the barrel maybe 3-4". You can use a hardwood dowel, or as I do. I have some steel rods (plain old hot rolled hardware store stuff) and wrap a band of masking tap around it maybe every 3" to keep it off the barrel. One .250" in diameter will work fine.

Invert the rifle and drive the slug out and measure. If you want to check the throat, upset the lead slug to about .320" and only drive it past the chamber a half inch or so. To check the chamberneck region upset it to .335-.340" and lightly tap it in untill you feel some resistance.

If you want to check the barrel all the way, to make sure there are no constrictions or loose spots, drive the slug all the way through. Oil the barrel first.

..............Buckshot

[357tex]

Thank you BuckShot I have wonder what the best way to slug a bore but to shy to ask. :???: My brother works in a machine shop and I get him check with some kind of pins that are sized .don't remember what they are called,seemed like a poor way to truly know the bore size.I like this site I learn so much.Keep posting so us dummies keep learning. :smile:

[StarMetal]

Buckshot

I believe you are wrong about Mauser's first cartridge was the 7.65x53. Maybe you meant it was his first SMOKELESS powder cartridge. Here's some the history of Peter Paul Mauser:

Peter Paul Mauser, the genius behind these rifles, was born in Oberndorff, Neckar, in 1838. Mauser worked in an arms plant prior to entering the German Army in 1859. Working with his brother Wilhelm Mauser (1834-1882), he developed a needle gun that was adopted by the German Army in 1871.

Mauser's first successful design was a single-shot, 11mm, bolt-action rifle that became the forerunner of many improved designs. In 1880, Mauser applied a tubular magazine to his rifle, and it became the main battle rifle of the Prussia Army in 1884.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Another quicker lazy man's way of slugging barrel is to take a cast bullet that you know is bigger then the groove ( I know, you don't know what the groove diameter is and that's why you're slugging it, so in this case we know that 7.65's can have a groove of up and over .314, so use a bullet of .315) and load it into a case with about 1.5 to 2.0 grs of Bullseyes and fire it into a big bale of rags. I use this alot instead of trying to pound a bullet through the barrel, especially on the longer military barrels. You can use other fast powders too.

A way to get a chamber cast, throat, leade in and part of the beginning of the bore is use Cerosafe. It's a very very low temperature substance that you then pour into the chamber after you inserted a plug to keep it from running down the bore. You can use just about anything that will plug the barrel like a cloth patch to bunched up paper towels. Just put the plug right ahear of the bore.

Another method is the pound method. You take a case, that you won't be using for reloading anymore in this caliber and it needs to have a fired primer in it to seal off the primer hole, FIRED PRIMER NOT A LIVE ONE, then fill this case to the base of the neck with lead. Doesn't matter what alloy mix the lead is. Then you need a pure as possible lead slug about one inch long to fit inside the bore. You can drill a hole in a piece of wood with a the biggest possible drill bit that will fit in the bore. You then want to lightly oil the slug and bore. Insert this slug in the case you just filled with lead and chamber it. Now you want a long rod that fit the bore without too must looseness. You may want to put a light wrapping of electrical tape around the first few inches of the slug end ot the rod to insure it doesn't mark the bore. Insert the rod down in the bore and when it stops put a mark on it flush with the muzzle with a marker pen. Now you take a small hammer and lightly keep tapping on that lead slug and you will notice by the marker pen mark going down into the bore that you are compressing it. After you have gained experience doing this you can tell when you have compressed the slug as much as it's going to go. After you have done this you then unlock the bolt and extract the cartridge and most often the slug will stay in the barrel and sometimes the bolt will be hard to open and pull back. Doesn't matter, as long as the bolt is unlocke you can tap the slug and the cartridge out, which will push the bolt open. Then you have a copy of end of the chamber mouth, the leade in to the rifling, and part of the beginning of the groove. This procedure takes alot more time to write it here then it really is to do it.

Joe

[MT Gianni]

To add to Starmetals posts, I have found that inverting a gas check of the same size or next smaller diameter helps to make sure the rolled steel rod doesn't dig into the lead or the bore. Lube it too with a light oil or lube. Gianni.

[45 2.1]

To make it easier yet. Trim a case about .08" shorter than normal length. Fill with hard lead full and file flat. Any mold that casts a heavy for caliber bullet can be used to cast several pure lead bullets for the pound method. Allot less work that way.

[StarMetal]

Good tips 45 2.1

Joe

[Buckshot]

Thank you BuckShot I have wonder what the best way to slug a bore but to shy to ask. :???: My brother works in a machine shop and I get him check with some kind of pins that are sized .don't remember what they are called,seemed like a poor way to truly know the bore size.I like this site I learn so much.Keep posting so us dummies keep learning. :smile:

............Pin guages. Usually in .001" steps but good only for checking the bore and not the groove. Also they're in tolerances of +.0000, -.0002" or vise versa. That trifling 2 tenths either way is rather immaterial.

Should you have a barrel with an odd number of lands/grooves, there is a quick and dirty means to give you a glimmer of what you have. This is assuming the muzzle isn't worn oval from energetic cleaning from the muzzle, and such.

With a dial caliper measure the barrel OD as close to the muzzle as possible. Use the thin knife edge and measure a few times around the circumfrence. Record the result, say .600". Now insert one jaw into a groove with the other 'just' on the barrel OD. Suppose you get .143". Double that and subtract from the barrel OD and you will find it to measure .314". Do the same on a land for a bore dimension.

The above assumes the bore is concentric with the barrel OD, and the reason for checking a couple places to be sure.

..............Buckshot

[KCSO]

My three favorite loads for the 1891 7.65 Argie are...

Lee Soupcan sized 313 over 4.5 of Red dot for 25 yards. 5 Shots at 25 into one ragged hole.

Lee 155 gr. s/p sized to 313 over 12.5 of Red dot seated with the grease groove exposed. More accurate at 100 yards than I can hold with peep sights, I have in frone of witnesses, shot five into 1 1/2" from over the hood of my car with sand bags.

Mountain Molds 220 custom mold for the Argie sized to 313 and seated over a full load of IMR 4895. This load shoots to 2000 fps and groups under 2 1/2" at 100 and duplicates a Krag Load I have used to kill all kinds of animals from 50 to 1250 lbs. I have used this load on cattle that have had to be destroyed and wuld not be afraid to use it for moose or elk to 200 yards. We have in the family several Argies and I have found that even the worst of them has better workmanship than a modern gun. Mine are all Judenflinte from Ludwig and Lowe aand the bores run 301-302 x 312, hence the 313 sizing. Before I made up a die I shot the bullets as cast (3145) and I dont think they shot much worse. If I didn't have a sizing die I wouldn't feel bad shooting the as cast bullets.

If you want a sample of the M/M 220 send me your address and I will send you some to try. You may have to play with seating depth a little to get perfect feeding.