44 special...310 gr....loads?

[The Black Spot]

Anyone have any experience shooting the lee 310 in 44 special and keeping within saami specs?
Thanks in advance.

[454PB]

I haven't tried it, but I don't think it will stabilize at the kind of velocity you can achieve within SAAMI specs. I'd be surprised if you can get over 600 fps.

[44man]

That boolit needs some velocity. It is a great boolit but the special can not achieve speed. You need to get around 1300 fps or a tad more.

[The Black Spot]

So far I have tried 9.5 gr of 2400. Accuracy at 25 yds was under 3" for five shots. Trying to,stick with blue dot and 2400 as that is what I have. 6.8 gr of blue dot was good as far as pressure signs, but accuracy at 25 yds was at the 5" grouping.
These loads are un a 7.5" barreled uberti cattleman.
I think there is a spot I can find where I,get decent accuracy and keep it in the saami specs.

[Aunegl]

I tried 7.5 grains of Bluedot with a 320 grain flat point of my design. I was shooting a Taurus 441 - 3" barrel. No pressure signs, medium-heavy recoil. A five shot group at 25 yds. was 3"x4" and it was fun.

[The Black Spot]

I tried 9 gr of 2400. low pressure, but accuracy was at 5" at 25 yds. the search is still on. I will try 7 gr of blue dot next, but that is as high I will go with that powder.

[idahomike]

Seems feasible. Reminds me of Elmer's writing about his sized down rifle bullets in 45 Colt and 38/40.

[The Black Spot]

even a 310 gr bullet at 600 - 650 fps would be a decent hunting load out to about 50 yds. I would think it would be just as good as a 200 gr going 800 - 850 fps. my search is for accuracy though is the main goal with the 310 gr, not speed. I did find a good plinking load with a lee 200 gr cast ww bullet using 5 gr bullseye(1" group at 20 yds). I think bullseye would be too fast a powder to try with a 310 gr.

[The Black Spot]

hopefully I can get out thus weekend for some more testing. hope to try the 7 gr blue dot load

[44man]

hopefully I can get out thus weekend for some more testing. hope to try the 7 gr blue dot load
You still need spin up for accuracy. Powders will not save you.
You have a good boolit but I think it is time to buy a .44 mag. That boolit is super in the mag but it can't be shot slow. Your twist rate can not support the boolit because you can't shoot it fast enough.

[The Black Spot]

you are probably 100% correct. I guess I just like to experiment within certain parameters. I still think there is a slow speed that might shoot decent. so far the 9.5 gr of 2400 has shown the most promise(under 3" at 25 yds).

[The Black Spot]

tried some more loads with a wheel weight cast 310 gr gas check bullet. no signs of high pressure. all shots fired freehand at 18 yds. both groups ran 2.5" for five rounds
9.2 gr of 2400
7.1 gr of bluedot

i guess these are going about 650 - 700 fps

[W.R.Buchanan]

Spot: In Handloader#236 (Aug 2005) Brian Pearce lists loads for 300 gr SWC boolits using 15.5 gr of H110 for @1050 fps at less than 25K psi.

These were shot in a FA 97 4 3/4" bbl and a Smith, 24-3 with a 6 1/2" bbl.

I would suggest getting one of these back issues and reading it as it will give you insight into what powders to use for what sized boolits and why you use them. There is a wealth of info in this issue on this subject. It is one of my 5 or so archived Handloader issues. $10 well spent.

Trying to drive heavy boolits with fast burning powders can be problematic, and that's why H110, H4227, and 2400 are the goto powders for that type of load. Trying to get nearly top end velocities out of fast powders gets you right up to the limit quickly, and going over is very easily done. Best to run your heavies with slower powders.

It is also stated in that article that a 300 gr boolit at 900 fps will go clean thru an elk. So how much could you possibly need.

1000 fps from a 1-20 twist barrel would roughly the equivalent rpm wise to 2000 fps from a 1-38 twist rifle barrel. Many people here claim that this Lee 310gr boolits will stabilize just fine out of their un modified Marlin Rifles at 1600ish fps.

Most of the revolvers I am aware of use a 1-20 twist barrel for the .44 Special and most of the guys building Marlin Rifles for shooting 300-340 gr boolits in .44 Magnum are using 1-16 to 1-20 twist barrels to insure they have enough spin to stabilize these longer boolits.

Lots to learn here. Do your home work. Handloader back issues #236 and 237 are great references.

#237 has 'Mid range" loads for .44 Magnum which is directly applicable to your quest for .44 Special performance.

These articles will help you understand these cartridges, their loading and their usage.

They are among the best cartridges ever produced.

Randy

[The Black Spot]

Randy - thanks for the input. I do have the Pearce article on 44 special fron handloader 236. my quest is to shoot the lee 310 out of my uberti cattleman within 15000- 16000 psi(within saami specs).
my only powders are bullseye, bluedot, and 2400. I have already dropped using bullseye with heavy bullets.
so far my best load has been 9.5 gr of 2400. I get 2.5 - 3" five shot groups at 25 yds. this is going to be a hunting load and back up for black bear hunting.
I do have some lilgun powder, but dont think it will work at lower pressure levels.

[Matthew 25]

What is the perceived advantage of the 300 grain over the 240 grain bullet?

At these low velocities I can't accept that the normal benefits of a heavy 300 are going to be realized.

Frankly, I'd be afraid of a 300g at 600fps potentially bouncing off the shoulder of a deer at 50 yards, or at least having poor penetration through thick bone.

I do like experimenting as you do, but I feel that going that slow may cause an unperceived or unpredictable problem, especially in a hunting environment.

[The Black Spot]

What is the perceived advantage of the 300 grain over the 240 grain bullet?

At these low velocities I can't accept that the normal benefits of a heavy 300 are going to be realized.

Frankly, I'd be afraid of a 300g at 600fps potentially bouncing off the shoulder of a deer at 50 yards, or at least having poor penetration through thick bone.

I do like experimenting as you do, but I feel that going that slow may cause an unperceived or unpredictable problem, especially in a hunting environment.

I will definitely do some penetration testing into wet phone books once I settle on an accurate load.
my hunting intensions would be bowhunting ranges(@ 30 yds).
only molds I can work with are a lee 200 gr and the lee 310. If i cant come up with a suitable hunting load with the 310, I will resort back to the 200 grainer. I feel 200 grain is a little light for a back up against a black bear.

[flipajig]

I'm loading the 310 Lee in a 44 mag for my tender and SBH. In my tender I'm getting 1260 fps and in my SBH I'm getting right at 1000 fps with 15 grn of 2400 I haven't tryed them in my M94 Winchester yet I'm also getting 1 1/2" to 2" at 50 yds in my tender with a 14" tube and a 4 X scope. I think it's stout enough for grizzly bear.

[The Black Spot]

I tested the 9.5 gr of 2400 load again today with the lee 310 gr. bullet. freehand two hand hold at 18 yds. group was little over 2" . the wheel weight alloy penetrated three dry phone books(1.5" thick each). no signs of pressure. ,will do more testing with bullet seated in the next lower crimp groove(bullet closer to forcing cone)

[The Black Spot]

tested the 310 lee bullet in ww alloy, this time seated at the lower crimp groove. 9.5 gr of 2400. freehand at 17 yds, 4 shots went 1.75". I pulled the last shot. no signs of pressure.

[Groo]

Groo here
First , in the grand 44special, a 300gr bullet ? Why...
Second looks like it is time to order bullets [matt's,penn, or others].
I would suggest a bullet that out of your barrel will get 1000fps to 1200 fps.
Not too big a flat at the tip and harder cast. 240 to 280gr.
Keith put a 245gr keith with 1/10 lead/tin through a deer at loooong range with such a load.
Bullet hardness and the nose will mean more at the speeds you can get at your limit..

[looseprojectile]

Comparing apples to pineapples but.

I have been trying to load the Ranch Dog 432 265 in my 44 magnum for shooting bowling pins. The best I can do from a rest at fifty feet is about 4.5 inch.
This with six to seven grains of Unique. [44 special loads in mag. brass.]

With a 240 grain SWC with the same powder it shoots an inch and a half.
This tells me something. What exactly, I don't know. I will go with what shoots best for me.

Those heavy boolits seem to be made for serious power in the magnums.
They work great in all my magnums at full bore velocities.
I would try some 200 grain 44 40 boolits in the single action.


Life is good

[The Black Spot]

Comparing apples to pineapples but.

I have been trying to load the Ranch Dog 432 265 in my 44 magnum for shooting bowling pins. The best I can do from a rest at fifty feet is about 4.5 inch.
This with six to seven grains of Unique. [44 special loads in mag. brass.]

With a 240 grain SWC with the same powder it shoots an inch and a half.
This tells me something. What exactly, I don't know. I will go with what shoots best for me.

Those heavy boolits seem to be made for serious power in the magnums.
They work great in all my magnums at full bore velocities.
I would try some 200 grain 44 40 boolits in the single action.


Life is good

that tells u that the 240 gr with that load shoots good, it also tells u that the 265 gr will shoot accurate if u find the right load for it.
most everyone has steered me away from 310 gr in 44 special. my goal was to find an accurate load within saami specs(15,000psi). well I did find one (9.5 gr of 2400) probably doing 700 fps out of my 7.5" barrel. goood enough for deer at 50 yds. u can find a load for that 265 just keep looking.

[The Black Spot]

[QUOTE=Groo;1866398]Groo here
First , in the grand 44special, a 300gr bullet ? Why...[quote]

because I had that mold, bullseye, bluedot, and 2400 already on hand and wanted to see if my goal could be reached(310 bullet, accurate, within saami specs).
I do have 200 and 255 gr molds, but wanted to do some carefull testing.

I also shoot that 310 from my charter bulldog 44 special(so far 6.8 gr of bluedot is showing promise).

[looseprojectile]

I think the point I was trying for was that the heavy boolits in 44s need to be shot faster than you can safely shoot them in a 44 special to stabilize them.

In my case I was trying to shoot the boolits I have a lot of at a velocity that is acceptable at the range I shoot pins at. They require mid range ammo in the 44 magnum.

The RD boolits I loaded were probably not going fast enough to stabilize with that puny of a charge of Unique.
Those same boolits will stabilize just fine when loaded to eleven to twelve hundred fps in the old model SBH and the Rossi and Ruger carbine.

Sounds like you have solved your problem. I can't consistently shoot that good from a rest nowadays.


Life is good

[The Black Spot]

I realize that 310 is better for faster velocity, I couldnt find any data anywhere for lower end loads so I tried my own just to see if it could be done.
you think your ranch dog 265 could be shot slower with a different powder, say trail boss or bullseye?

[Any Cal.]

I hope to try some of these for the same reasons. I have both the boolits mentioned, as well as some standard stuff. Will see what happens with a Bulldog, so trying to keep pressure down. Trying to get more brass, but will test a few w/ Bullseye shortly.

[Any Cal.]

240g w/ 4.5g Bullseye gets 682fps out of 3" Bulldog. One shot over chrono w/ dead battery...

Will probably try RD265s over same charge next.

[MarkP]

When working in the ammo industy several years ago this came up enough from customers to result in an ECN for the 44 SPL case tooling. The issue was the heal of a jacketed 300 gr bullet would be below the cylindrical region of the case wall and create a bulge in the middle of the loaded case. Taper on the final draw punch was changed to accomodate a 300 gr Jacketed +0.06" or so. This added some case capacity which the BP shooter probalby welcomed if they noticed.
This could be an issue depending on brass mfg'r.

[Any Cal.]

265g RD, 4.5g Bullseye, 659fps.

Thanks Mark. I will be trimming Mag brass down to length, since I have some of it but only 5 pieces of Special brass. That gun will not see factory ammo, or jacketed bullets... or new brass, or anything with the correct headstamp, or loads that there is a book load for, or brass that has lesss than 7-8 loadings on it...:-) I guess that makes me a redneck...:-)

[Any Cal.]

Lee 310, 4.5g Bullseye, WLP, seated just past longest crimp groove, 594fps. Makes me think of the 38-200 loads.

[CJR]

McPherson's "Metallic Cartridge Reloading" manual lists a bunch of 44 Special loads for the 300 gr. bullet. Awhile back, I loaded up some 320 gr. LFN over Blue Dot and 4227 to shoot at the range. I got some slight key-holing on target from a Bulldog. But they are accurate enough for a close-range defensive load. Likewise, there were no functioning issues. I do remember being impressed on how hard they hit the bank behind the target. That was a fun-fun day!

Best regards,

CJR

[Any Cal.]

Any chance of posting a couple of those? I have Beye, h110, and 7625, will probably pick up some unique or 2400 or blue dot.

[CJR]

Any Cal,

Here are the 44 Special 300 gr. JSP bullet loads from McPherson's Metallic Cartridge Reloading manual, 3rd Edition;

W296: 10.5 gr for 720 fps & 11.0 gr for 794 fps (17,700 CUP)
H4227: 10.5 gr for 680 fps & 11.5 gr for 752 fps (18,600 CUP)
IMR 4227:10.5 gr for 688 fps & 11.5 gr for 732 fps (18,400 CUP)
IMR800-X: 5.8 gr for 667 fps & 6.4 gr for 721 fps (18,800 CUP)
Her2400: 9.0 gr for 649 fps & 9.6 gr for 711 fps (18,00CUP)
Blue Dot: 7.0 gr for 612 fps & 7.5 gr for4 648 fps (16,800CUP)

Best regards,

CJR

[Any Cal.]

Ok, tried the 296 load off cjr's list using h110.

11g h110 under Lee 310 seated to short groove...438fps

5.2g bullseye under 240 swc...794

7g 7625 under 240swc...764

All are still one shot over chrono. That bullseye load gets your attention in what is currently a 21oz gun. The rubber grips added 2 oz over the wood ones. Not painful, but the gun moves a lot.

[Any Cal.]

Got some 2400, and found a bunch of articles on .44 special. It appears that 15g or less of 2400 under a 240-250 grain bullet will keep pressures below 20k psi. Saami max is 15,5k, so some of these could be overpressure by 20% if they hit 18k. I wouldn't run tons through a weak gun, but it seems like a good trail/hunting load where only a few are shot.

11g 2400 w/240g swc...580
11g 2400 w/265rd........613
11g 2400 w/310Lee......734

13g 2400 w/240g swc...709
13g 2400 w/265rd.........764

15g 2400 w/240g swc...947

These are all still single shots over chrono w/ 3" Bulldog.

[6.5 mike]

I was real interested in this thread & after Saterday when I traded into a 5.5" Vaqureo got even more so. I had picked up the lee 310 awhile back to do the same thing, but with a 4" 29. :Fire:

[Any Cal.]

RD 432-240 w/ 14g 2400... 777fps Kind of disappointing, I was hoping for 800+...

I think 15g is good, but was hoping to find a load to shoot more of... that one is pretty hot. Maybe try some @ 14.5 and see where that goes. They all get in your hand a bit out of the lightweight gun.

The Bullseye loads are economical and accurate so far, the 2400 loads are easiest on the gun, theoretically. It is just tough to tell where to quit adding powder... I would like 240@ 850-900 in a load that is easy on the gun and accurate. Like a .45 acp but in a smaller, lighter gun and a bullet with more sectional density and meplat. Is that too much to ask?:-)

[Any Cal.]

RD 432-240 w/ 14.6g 2400...859fps. I think this is my load, will load some to do some groups with. Starting to get some muzzle flash, primers are just not quite as round, and recoil is noticeable. Just guessing from old data, these are probably around 16k-17k CUP. Not trying to build a Mag, but trying to eek out some performance for use as a trail gun. The 2400 seems to like just a bit more pressure than the .44 special saami spec to run well, maybe a better powder for Rugers and such. It is taking an extra 9.4g of powder to get 65fps over the Bullseye load...I think I prefer higher pressure cartridges...:-)

Edit- looking at the old NRA .44 special loads, this one may be in spec. They claim 16,6k psi for 16g of the old 2400 under a 230something grain bullet. Whatever the case may be, I don't think this one is overly hot. Speer 13 allows 13g 2400 under a 250 Keith for some more recent data. All loads are for solid head cases.

[Any Cal.]

Shot 3 cylinders of the load above before I loaded a bunch. Recoil is pretty heavy, and accuracy was lousy, even with the decent single-action trigger. I may be going back to the Bullseye loads, as they grouped better @ 40 yds than these did @ 25. Wouldn't matter for a get-off-me gun, but would for putting a rabbit in the pot.

[Biggfoot44]

OK, not the same bullet, but once upon a decade I used a 290gr FP in .44Spl. Wasn't trying for SAAMI spec, but for reasonable in a M624. Using WLP, 7.5gr Unique , it gave 750fps from 4in bbl. It was decisive on bowling pins, and I carried it with intent for whitetail, but none cooperated that year.

Don't recall the exact accuraccy at this remove, but I wouldn't have taken it hunting if it weren't sub 2in @ 25yds. It was within the adjustment capacity of the S&W sights.

Starting over now, I would probably start with 4227, but Unique was what I used , and it worked for me.

[Char-Gar]

Anyone have any experience shooting the lee 310 in 44 special and keeping within saami specs?
Thanks in advance.

Why would anybody want to do that?

[44man]

Accuracy for hunting is primary. I could care less about paper but still demand 1" or better at 50 yards.
I had the Marlin .44 for a time and did shoot a big doe with it at 65 yards. I hit over a foot from where I aimed but it turned out to be perfect, she took one step and went down.
Thinking about it for years told me if I had actually aimed there I might have shot her lower jaw off. I used the RD 265 loaded to the hilt. Gun went BY-BY.
Now my SBH is 10-1/2" and I shoot up to 330 gr boolits so good it is hard to believe.147195147196 First is 3 shots off hand at 100 yards, second is 3 Creedmore at 200 yards, 3/4" and 1-5/16", 330 gr. The 265 RD will hold 3/4" at 50 and 1-1/4" at 100. Both are HUNTING loads. The 310 Lee will do 1" at 50 or less depending on me and many deer have eaten dirt.
I took a heavy boolit down to about 1100 fps and at 50 I had a pattern of over 2' that would make a shotgun blush.
My suggestion is always the most accurate you can ever get to shoot at animals. My position will never change when a life is at stake. Kill clean or don't shoot. I have taken deer cleanly to 120 yards off hand with revolvers but if you fail for accuracy, 30 yards can be too far. The term "good enough" is missing from my book.
Spot, you are shooting so close I can lend you my spear! :bigsmyl2:
I have the same problem with my Ruger OA with a round ball. 20 yards max since I get over 1100 fps that is wrong for rifling. I need to grab their tails before I shoot.
If you keep ranges very short you will be OK but a few yards can make a difference.
I did not ask if you get buck fever either. I have a friend that falls apart and will miss a deer by 10 yards if it is 15 yards away. He needs to add 10 yards to group size! :veryconfu
Yeah, it is funny as heck. I heard him shoot, he said he hit the doe so I asked where she was, he said "right there" I found a boolit hole in a tree 10 yards away! He can punch the center out of paper and why he does not have the "BIG" one, I don't know.