45-70 and the quest for accuracy at 1800FPS

[XTR]

Insane or otherwise I'm looking for an accurate (1.5MOA) shooting bullet that I can drive at about 1800 in order to make my Win-Mir 1885 into a functional deer rifle out to 200 yards.

If I can get an accurate load at about 1800 FPS then it's almost exactly .5mil/25 yards out to 200, easy shooting with a Swaro scope and a BRX reticle.

I've got loads that work with jacketed 300/350 bullets, but I'm having a heck of a time with cast. Has anyone used a 340gn Hunters Supply bullets with GCs at these velocities with good results? I'm interested in proving the process works before I invest in molds and such ($16 for 50 is a much smaller investment that a full casting setup until I know this will work)

I'm only shooting white tails and I'm pretty sure a 350 class bullet launched at 1800 will go all the way through a white tail in any direction so I don't need 405s (or heavier).


I've been trying paper patching with no success so now I'm thinking GCs.

[softpoint]

I have had my best accuracy in ALL my 45/70's (7or so) with bullets over 300 grains, actually, 350 and up. And I have, a few years ago tried some Hunter Supply bullets. Not in 45/70, however, in 444 Marlin. The bullets I got from them were sized and lubed AND of a gascheck design Their claim was to use without a check for low velocity, with a check for higher speeds. They were very hard, and did work well in that application with a check.
Back to 45/70. My "thin skinned" hunting load is the 340 grain Lee, cast at about 9bhn, patched with 2 wraps of tracing paper, smeared with Hornady case lube, sized .460. 46.5 grains of RL7 gives it 1950FPS. It is destructive, but nothing moves after it's hit.
Ranchdogs 350 grain mold makes another good gascheck bullet that I have gotten good accuracy with. And you can reach the speed you want with it easily.
The RCBS 405 grain GC is another favorite of mine. It weighs 420 grains out of my mold, and is one of the most accurate bullets I've tried. At that weight, though the velocity you want to shoot it at may be a bit unpleasant to shoot. I have the Ranchdog 425 grain as well, but haven't worked with it enough to comment, it would be in the same category as the 405 RCBS.
I also have the RCBS 500 grain mold, weight is about 525 out my alloy. You can run it 1800 fps too, but at that level will almost certainly be unpleasant to shoot, unless you are very accustomed to recoil. It is, however very accurate.
My suggestion would be either the 350 Ranchdog or the 405 RCBS. mold, and either RL7, H322, or 3031. I've used H335 for some top end 45/70 loads, but the muzzle blast sounds about like Navy cannon. There are several other good powders as well, as you will see in your load manuals.:cbpour:

[Char-Gar]

I have been shooting cast bullet from 45-70 rifles for over 50 years with good sucess and here is my feedback to your question;

1. Bullets in the 350 to 450 grain weight will make your happier than anything lighter.

2. No sense in running a 45-70 faster than about 1,600 fps. Going faster won't make it kill any better or shoot enough flater to make it worth the effort. In fact 1,500 fps is plenty. Such a load will shoot through a deer in a straight line, no matter the angle or range.

3. I like the RCBS 405 GC and have used the old Lyman 330 HP Gould bullet alot in the early years.

4. 2400 or 4759 powder works for me.

5. I have shot a large mule deer buck with a 350 grain bullet going 1,900 fps over a healthy dose of 3031. The deer was dead of course, but the recoil and blast during practice will help you develop a flinch pretty quick. Not a good idea.

[1Shirt]

Don't know why 1800 fps is a magic number for vol. but that is a matter of preferance. Would hate to think of the numbers of deer taken over many, many years with 45-70, the Old Gould HP plain base at about 1400. My personal preferance for my Ruger #1 is a 405 Ohas plain base over 20-24 gr of 2400, w/dac fill for vols from about 1350-1550 fps, or the old 385 Round nose plain base lyman with the same charges and fill. Both shoot well.
1Shirt!

[XTR]

paper patches - I've tried and I'm losing patience with it. I haven't been able to get consistent accuracy with them. I also shoot 1000 yard F-TR comps and I've got over 900 rounds down range since I rebarrled my rifle in Jan.






If I can get an accurate load at about 1800 FPS then it's almost exactly .5mil/25 yards out to 200, easy shooting with a Swaro scope and a BRX reticle.





This is why I want 1800FPS. If you don't understand that pls take a look at the retical.



Would hate to think of the numbers of deer taken over many, many years with 45-70, the Old Gould HP plain base at about 1400. My personal preferance for my Ruger #1 is a 405 Ohas plain base over 20-24 gr of 2400, w/dac fill for vols from about 1350-1550 fps, or the old 385 Round nose plain base lyman with the same charges and fill. Both shoot well.
1Shirt!

I would like to use my 45-70 hunting from elevated stands where shots to 200 are possible, though 150 is more likely. The last 3 deer I took with my muzzle loader were at 128, 135, and 150. I use a reticle with ranging/aiming points on it too.

If I can't get cast bullets to run at 1800 then I'll quit messing with them, jacketed will work, I was just asking if anyone has had success with 340/350s and GCs at that speed?

[Char-Gar]

You can get a cast bullet to run at 1,800 fps. Use 48 to 52 grains of 3031 under a 350 - 410 grain bullet gas check bullet. Hold on to your hat and hope you don't detach a retina. Have fun.

[XTR]

I've had them up to 2300 FPS, but cant hit a bull in the *** with a bass fiddle with them either.

Shooting 350s at 1800 isn't bad. 405s at 2000+ is punishing, I'm not hunting anything that needs that.

[softpoint]

I've had them up to 2300 FPS, but cant hit a bull in the *** with a bass fiddle with them either.

Shooting 350s at 1800 isn't bad. 405s at 2000+ is punishing, I'm not hunting anything that needs that.

I'd advise trying the Hunter Supply bullets, since you aren't already casting. Do they sell the bullet you are looking at with Gascheck already installed.? The 444 bullets I got from them I had to put the GC on.

[btroj]

I have shot a fair number of the RD 425 at 1700 to 1800 fps. Not very fun.

I have confidence that my 420 gr flat nose at 1350 will go thru any deer I can see.

No matter what you do a 45-70 will never shoot very "flat". Learn to range, know your trajectory, and you will be able to hit just fine with far less velocity.

I like 24 gr of 2400 for most of my shooting. On a good day it will put 5 into just over an inch at 100 from the bench. That is plenty accurate for deer to 200.

Learn to shoot, that skill is far more important than velocity is.

[MGySgt]

This load is right at 1800 with the RD TL350 GC. Marlin GG at 100 yards

[EMC45]

this load is right at 1800 with the rd tl350 gc. Marlin gg at 100 yards

Dang son!

[MT Chambers]

If you are using a gas check and accuracy is not up to snuff, I would try sizing the bullet to .460 or more, some Marlins like the larger size.

[MGySgt]

I have dealt with at least 4 Marlins with Cast - 2 with MG and 2 Ballard. I shoot .460+ out of all of them and get MOA with boolits ranging from 350 - 450grain all are GC.

Most of the high intensity loads I have to use a sissy pad from the bench/practice.

Powders used are 2400, 3031, 4198 (both IMR and H, although I like the the H SC better) Most loads have dacron filler in them.

[Char-Gar]

I have a Marlin 45-70 levergun that will put all of the bullets into one ragged hole, if the shooter can do his part. I use the RCBS 405CG over 30/4759. These bullets fall from the mold at .4595. I lube and check them in a .460 die.

My rifle is one of the first Ballard style rifling that came out. I have fitted it with an old Redfield 102 steel receiver signt and have the screw lock-tited. The front sight is an old Redfield Sourdough Patridge. It is a heck of a fine rifle.

Velocity is about 1,400 fps and recoil is moderate and not a problem. It will kill anything that walk, crawls or flies in North American graveyard dead! No need for more horse power.

[MGySgt]

The OP asked for MOA and 1800FPS - It is doable, but as Char-Gar states (and others here) it is not neccessary to cleanly take anything in North America.

Buff were almost killed out with 500gr soft lead at about 1200 FPS. The last Elk I took with my 45/90 was at 165 yards and a 430gr FP at 1470 FPS took her down real quick.

[John Boy]

Insane or otherwise I'm looking for an accurate (1.5MOA) shooting bullet that I can drive at about 1800 ...in order to make my Win-Mir 1885 into a functional deer rifle out to 200 yards.
What alloy do you plan to cast the bullets for these MACH 2 round? Why? Alloy dependent, you may be scraping Pb out of the bore with a shovel due to gas stripping & poor obturation in the groovesl

I sight in 540gr 1:20 black powder rounds at 200yds and then shoot them at 1000yds - with accuracy. The velocities are 1190 to 1230 fps dependent on charge & grade of powder. IMO - your intended velocity is absolutely unnecessary ... because high velocity is not a factor to insure less than MOA at ANY distance.

And hope you have a Kelvar cheek piece and a HANS device for the felt recoil. Good Luck ;)

[Char-Gar]

You can shoot a gas check bullet cast from air cooled wheel weight out of a 45-70 at 1,800 fps with no leading provided the lube and size are correct.

Millions of buffalo were killed at ranges of 200 to 800 yards with 45 caliber rifle bullets that left the muzzle at 1,100 to 1,200 fps. Kick the bullet up to the "Express" range to 1,400 fps to flaten the trajectory a mite and that is all you will every need to kill deer at 200 yards and beyond if you can hit them.

Hitting deer with a 45-70 at 200 yards has never been a problem for me. My problem has always been finding a deer worth shooting. Deer shooting is never a problem for a man who knows how to shoot. Deer finding the the area for the hunter.

[nanuk]

when I do the calculations using a ballistics calculator, I find a MPBR is quite far for not to fast a boolit.

sighted in to utilize this, would require very little hold over, for known distances.

[Char-Gar]

When it comes to rifle shooting, 200 yards (OP desire) is not very far, even for a punkin ball like the 45-70. It is just a matter of sighting your rifle in for about 130 - 140 yards and shooting at 200to see how far it falls below the line of sight. Then if you are worth your salt, you can get a good idea of how far the critter is and then you drop the bullet into the boiler room. Really not a big trick for somebody that knows how to shoot and is familiar with his rifle and load.

I fear that fewer and fewer folks in the hunting field these days are riflemen who understand the craft of windage and elevation.

[EDG]

With a short light bullet at 1800 fps, the 45-70 is like a large pistol round. It will not hold velocity well nor hold group size at 200 yards well. I have messed with a dozen 45-70s over the last 40 years. Wanting high velocity and MOA accuracy with a light bullet is sort of like people in hell wanting ice water.That sort of accuracy normally comes from heavier cast bullets unless you have a really slow twist barrel. If your barrel has one of the faster twists you will have a difficult time with fast light bullets. There is little you can do except rebarrel with a slower twist barrel. If you must have that combination to match your reticle just invest in a few boxes of jacketed bullets for hunting.

[XTR]

If you must have that combination to match your reticle just invest in a few boxes of jacketed bullets for hunting.

If this won't work then jacketed may be the answer, and I have the J bullets on the shelf to load if I cant get something cast to work. I have gotten respectable groups from 300/350 J bullets at 100 yards. If I can't get lighter cast bullets to group at all at 200 then maybe I have to go to a heavier slower bullet to get there, and if for whatever reason I cant get them to perform at that range I'll just stick with jacketed for hunting.

I shoot F-TR competition now, I'm the current TN state champion. I've put over 900 rounds through the barrel that I put on my match rifle in Jan and between Camp Perry this month and the State championships next month I will probably be up close to 1500. My hobby hours (edit: and $$) are mostly spent there, at this point I am not interested in playing with my 45-70 too much. I would like for it to be an effective reliable hunting rifle that I trust. If I can get it there I'll use it, if I can't then I'll use something different that shoots fast pointy bullets.

[btroj]

Lad will work great at 200 yards. It has NOTHING to do with velocity. Shoot a 405 gr or heavier bullet and all will be fine. You just need to,learn the trajectory. That isn't really that hard.

As an F class shooter you should understand the troubles of light weight bullets as range grows. Do you know anyone shooting 223 in F class that uses a bullet under x75 grains at ranges beyond 300? Here is a reason. A 300 gr 45-70 bullet is pretty darn short for caliber and is designed for closer in work. A heavier slug will just plain shoot more accurately and penetrate better too.

As a competition shooter you also should understand the value of range time with any new gun/load combo. I can guarantee that a 420 gr bullet at 1400 is far more shootable than a 350 or a 400 at 1800. I prefer to use a load that doesn't beat the heck out of me.

I have taken enough game now with a 45-70 to have learned that a heavy bullet at moderate velocity will easily get the Jon done. A long deep hole always does the job.

It the bullet where it belongs and a 45-70 isnt going to let you down. Focus more in accuracy and less on velocity.

[myfriendis410]

Don't give up on paper patching. I found I wasn't wrapping tightly enough, and to use JPW on the bullets. I'm getting 1,600 fps with a 500 grain WW bullet and groups just over m.o.a. for five shots at 100 yards.

[JJC]

1800 fps is not hard to achieve with accuracy. Zero at 125 yards I'm 7" low at 200. I use H4895 and get two inch groups at 200 yards with a reciever sighted Marlin 1895. Work on the load and you will get there. John

[XTR]

Don't give up on paper patching. I found I wasn't wrapping tightly enough, and to use JPW on the bullets. I'm getting 1,600 fps with a 500 grain WW bullet and groups just over m.o.a. for five shots at 100 yards.


I'm pretty certain I'm not man enough to sit in there behind 500gr bullets at 1600 with my 9lb rifle. :violin: call me a wimp.

I'll keep playing with it. From April to Sept I just don't have time. I'm fortunate to belong to the Oak Ridge Sportsman's Assn and between 1000 yard HP/F class matched or Full Bore 800/900/1000 yard matches I'm shooting for score at least twice a month.

Thanks for the feedback from most everyone, ultimately I may end up putting a Leatherwood scope back on this rifle with a good set of Unertle mounts and then I'll just spin the knobs. So far this has been an experiment to see if I could get a load that would match the reticle in the Swaro.

[myfriendis410]

I mentioned my situation simply because that's what I've been using. Your right; 1,600 fps and a 500 gr. bullet is sporty, even out of a 13 lb. rifle. I believe you can get there with a 405 gr. bullet. If you are using commercial bullets, you might want to weight sort them and try wrapping up using other papers than what you've tried before. I settled on tracing paper purchased at an office supply store and wrapped wet. The best results for me were using RL7, but got pretty good results using IMR4895 too.

It sounds like an interesting project. Good luck at Camp Perry!