M die advice

[rollmyown]

I'm having 2 "M" die plugs made.

I have no experience with these dies. I need to size 303 Brit cases to accept .316 boolits and .317 / .318 PP boolits (also I have zero experience with pp boolits)

I need to give dimentions for custom made plugs

Thanks in advance.

[462]

Qualifier: While I've taken this approach, it does not mean that it will work for others.

Since M-die expander plugs are designed and manufactured for jacketed bullets, rarely are they big enough to work correctly with cast boolits. When it came time to have custom plugs made, I designed the first step to enter the case as deep as the intended boolits' length, and .002" less in diameter. The second step was dimensioned to enter the case approximately 1/16" inch, and .001" greater in diameter.

I feel these dimensions allow for case springback to provide enough neck tension, won't cause the case to downsize the seated boolit, and assure correct boolit-to-mouth alignment.

I haven't any paper patching experience.

[45 2.1]

I'm having 2 "M" die plugs made.

I have no experience with these dies. I need to size 303 Brit cases to accept .316 boolits and .317 / .318 PP boolits (also I have zero experience with pp boolits)

I need to give dimentions for custom made plugs

Thanks in advance.

That "step" in the plug doesn't do you any favors. Make the cylindrical portion of the plug 0.001" to 0.0015" under your sized boolit diameter and longer than the case neck. The flareing angle can be about 3 to 5 degrees off centerline and you'll be good.

[Char-Gar]

The issue of expanders for cast necks has heated up as of late with some folks condeming M-Dies as worthless and accuracy destroyers. I take this with a grain of salt.

When you get to the size you want, it will take a custom expanding plug for the M-Die. If I were having one made I would have the plug itself made .001 to .002 under the size of your bullet and the seating step .002 over the size of your bullet.

I am one of those guys who still like the M-Die and am fond of that seating step that some folks find so odious.

[Longwood]

The issue of expanders for cast necks has heated up as of late with some folks condeming M-Dies as worthless and accuracy destroyers. I take this with a grain of salt.

When you get to the size you want, it will take a custom expanding plug for the M-Die. If I were having one made I would have the plug itself made .001 to .002 under the size of your bullet and the seating step .002 over the size of your bullet.

I am one of those guys who still like the M-Die and am fond of that seating step that some folks find so odious.

I agree with you.
I made five each "M" style expanders for my 45 colt and 45-70 cartridges.
One size for super soft bullets, one size for a little harder bullets and one size for paper patched bullets. As time goes on, I am sure I will be making more sizes to experiment with.
I have the luxury of owning one of the bench lathes so I can make new ones or modify these to any size I need.
So far, I sure do like how they work at the bench,, shooting and testing some is still on tap.

[popper]

I would make a Lyman style plug with the threaded stud on the stem, bottom tapping the 'plug' should be easier and less expensive than the way Lyman does it, course it wouldn't fit the Lyman stem. I think the step is OK if it had more draft angle to it and was longer. The Lyman step is too short and allows a long (non-trimmed) neck to hit the stop, adjustment is critical. A squarish 'step' fits GC'd OK and may? start the CB straighter. The belling profile always works and gives a more gentle stretching of the brass. I use both an not sure I can tell the difference. I guess another question is the FB and RB plain base pistol CBs. Just checked, one could loctite all thread into the Lyman stem and then make the plug my way. Wish I had a machine shop.

[gray wolf]

Could some of you folks explain about pistol bullets in relation to plug size for the M die. I size to .432 So what is a good plug size ?
I think bullet hardness comes into play, Yes ?
How would .430 and .429, and .428 work out ?
The last plug I was using was a Lee for the 44 Mag. (loaner ) I think the plug is a little short on the Lee, and it seem to be about .427 diameter.
Now this seems awfully small for a .432 bullet. (.005 smaller )
I have pulled some and they seem to be very close to the size before loading.
I don't have a Mic. so I have to use calipers. My lead is WW+PB so I can't see how a .427 plug could be correct. The OD of a sized case is .450 and the inside of a sized case after the .427 plug, seems to be .427
I can't see that arrangement not sizing the bullet down.
This would be for an M die plug.

[45 2.1]

Could some of you folks explain about pistol bullets in relation to plug size for the M die. I size to .432 So what is a good plug size ?
I think bullet hardness comes into play, Yes ? Correct
Now this seems awfully small for a .432 bullet. (.005 smaller )
I have pulled some and they seem to be very close to the size before loading. Smaller plugs will leave a neck that will size down soft boolits. It very much depends on your load intensity as to what you actually need here.
I don't have a Mic. so I have to use calipers. My lead is WW+PB Air cooled or water dropped? so I can't see how a .427 plug could be correct. It would work with a very hard boolit and high intensity load. A harder boolit usually dictates useing a smaller diameter expander plug.... Use a larger plug the softer your boolit is. The OD of a sized case is .450 and the inside of a sized case after the .427 plug, seems to be .427
I can't see that arrangement not sizing the bullet down. It will if the boolit is softer. If you chose a midrange load and the air cooled WW/Pb mix.... I would choose a expander plug 0.001" to 0.0015" under boolit size for my use. Others will see it differently.

[gray wolf]

45 2.1
Thank you for your answer sir.

Smaller plugs will leave a neck that will size down soft boolits. It very much depends on your load intensity as to what you actually need here.
The load is 9.3 to 10 grains of Unique.

Air cooled or water dropped?
Air cooled, I could water drop if I had to.

It would work with a very hard boolit and high intensity load. A harder boolit usually dictates useing a smaller diameter expander plug....
OK, I understand that part.

It will if the boolit is softer. If you chose a midrange load and the air cooled WW/Pb mix.... I would choose a expander plug 0.001" to 0.0015" under boolit size for my use. Others will see it differently.
OK, realistically speaking, it sounds like .430 should do for the Air cooled WW/PB
metal, perhaps .428/.429 for water dropped and the original .427 for jacket and lead with a high antimony content.
Thank you, I am starting to understand this a little better.
Others have also tried to explain it to me, it seems the older I get the more times I have to hear things, not everything just somethings.
Please, may I ask one more question.
How does one know if the plug is to big ? what do I look for ?


Sam

[Char-Gar]

Grey Wolf... Let me throw a little sand into the gear box. The basic thought is firearms dont shoot numbers, but bullets and the only real knowledge come from looking at the target fired by you with your gun.

1. Elmer Keith recommended have the 44 Magnum expander plug turned down several thousands to give a greater bullet pull for better ignition and accuracy. The expander plugs in Elmer's days were larger than the ones used for today's jacketed bullets, so most factory expanders would be correct by Elmer's thinking. The bullets he shot were 1-16 (tin to lead) which were softer than air cooled WW.

2. Jim Taylor, who is one of the most knowledable sixgun reloaders and shooters I know, once handed me one of his 45 Colt rounds. He said folks often wonder how he got such great accuracy out of his reloads and he said he never expanded the cases after sizing. He belled and seated the bullet. His loaded rounds look like a snake that has swallowed a rabbit.

I have shot with Jim a number of times and there was nobody on the line who could outshoot him with a 45 Colt sixgun.

3. For the Magnum sixgun rounds, I have always followed Elmer's counsel and wanted a decent bullet pull. I have also loaded rounds like Jim Taylor with excellent results.

4. Neither Keith, Jim Taylor nor I used water dropped bullets and none exceeded the hardness of ACWW.

The above are facts. Now here are my conclusions which will be different from the conclusions and opinions of others.

1. The crimp is most often the culprit that shaves bullets as they exit and causes the accuracy to be degraded. The crimp is a much bigger issue than the size of the expander.

2. If the bullet is held with sufficient tension, it doesn't take a Godzilla crimp to keep the bullets from moving forward in the cylinder. A light or moderate crimp will do.

So, now you have opinions which are not consistant, what do you do? Try it both ways in your handgun and see what happens. That is the only way for you to come to closure.

[Longwood]

It gets pretty confusing when the single shot rifle shooter, the lever action rifle shooter, and the revolver shooters all get to trying to add advise about the same subject.

Char Gar nailed it when he said it like it is.
Try something.
Shoot them.
The target will tell you if it is a good idea.
Remember this, a too big 'M' expander can always be modified on a drill press or even in a hand drill to make it like the straight expanders are made.
A few second with a flat file wrapped with some fine emory cloth and the size can be adjusted to about any smaller size.

[gray wolf]

Grey Wolf... Let me throw a little sand into the gear box.
Well Sir, + 1 on the sand in the gear box, I see a rock or two in there also ( smile )
I think your comments should be well taken, I respect your opinion so they will be well taken by me, and I thank you as I do everyone that helps with my questions.
I let the pistol tell me a lot, my close in accuracy is more than acceptable
and water jugs are not a problem at 100 Yds.
What I am fighting is lead in the cylinder at the case mouth, and a little in the first
1 1/2" of the barrel, easily cleaned up with a little chore boy. The main part of the barrel
is lead free.
I just don't want to wear out the cylinder or the barrel with chore boy every time
I clean the pistol. Also I am still unable to get my crimps to open
So that got me to the bullet being made smaller some place in my loading,
hence, the expander button. Many times I have read and been schooled that
leading in the first part of the barrel is two small a bullet.
I also get a lead haze or film in the throats.
Like I said I have no problem hitting my intended targets, but the leading thing bugs the heck out of me. It didn't change with water dropped bullets that were significantly harder. But worse with soft loads of tite group powder.
I know the answer is someplace.
This has gone on from day one, I do not use a heavy crimp, I have also tried no crimp with light loads.
It has been suggested from a knowledgeable member that I try a better well known lube, When I can afford it, I will try some NRA formula or LBT soft blue.
My .432 bullets are a snug fit in the throats, they need a slight push to get them through ( slight )
As for the pistol talking to me, it seems to be saying "" I am very accurate ""
9.3 of Unique with the 429421 bullet is less than 2" at 25 yards and one big hole at 15
water jugs at 100 with just a hold over and no sight adjustment.
I can hear some of the folks now.
"" is this guy crazy ? just shoot the dammm pistol ""


So that got me to the bullet being made smaller some place in my loading,
hence, the expander button. Many times I have read and been schooled that
leading in the first part of the barrel is two small a bullet.
I also get a lead haze or film in the throats.
Like I said I have no problem hitting my intended targets, but the leading thing bugs the heck out of me. It didn't change with water dropped bullets that were significantly harder. But worse with soft loads of tite group powder.
I know the answer is someplace.

[Char-Gar]

Gray Wolf.. Let me address the issues of lead in the cylinder throats, unopened crimp and lead in the rear of the barrel. I don't see an expander issues. Let me do it one at a time.

1. Lead wash in the cylinder throats:

Despite what you may read to the contrary, it is very rare for a cast bullet not to leave some light lead wash in the cylinder throats and/or barrel. It it comes out with a dozen or so strokes of a good bronze brush and good solvent, then that is as good as it gets, unless you use a gas check.

2. Build up in the front of the cases in the cylinder charge holes:

There will be a hard crust in front of the case in the cylinder charge holes. This is lube, powder trash and maybe a little lead. Once again a good bronze brush and solvent will kept it down to where it is no problem.

4. Unopened crimp -

A charge of 10/Unique under 429421 should open the crimp, it does on my loads. I can only come up with two possible causes.

A. The brass is too darn hard. It might be worked hardened or just that lot of brass.

B. The cases are too long and encroach on the cylinder lead, preventing the case from opening up all the way. Sixgun cases will grow a might and become "unsquare" at the mouth.

For a fix, get some new cases or trim the ones you have.

4. Leading in the rear of the barrel:

This is caused by one of the following;

A. Bullet to small- no seal and gas cutting on sides of the bullet base.

Your bullets at .432 which can be pushed through with slight effort sound good to me.

B. Bullet to hard- No seal and gas cutting on side of the bullet in the forcing cone

I shoot thousands of 44 Magnum loads with 429241 over 10/Unique cast from ACWW with no leading issues and excellent accuracy.


C. Worthless bullet lube -

There are only two kinds of lube, ones that work and ones that don't work. I have been using a homemade soft lube for 50 years with no issues than can be traced to the lube. I have not had good results with Lee Snot or any other kind of tumble lube. I dont doubt they can be made to work, but when I tried them, the result were not good so I didn't grit my teeth and vow to make them work. Not worth the effort, when what I was doing worked just fine.

D. Rough barrel forcing cone-

Some forcing cones are rough and when the bullets passed over it, it act like a file. Two weeks ago I was shooting a Smith and Wesson 28, which I had not fired in 30 years. The load as a mild 38 Special load of a 148 grain Miester wad cutter over 3.5/Bullsye. When I got home the area ahead of the forcing cone was packed with lead.

After cleaning out the lead, I could see the problem was the forcing cone. I recut it to a gentle 11% angle and cleaned up the old cone. This gave a nice smooth transition from the cone to the lands.

Saturday, I went out to the range and fired 100 rounds of the exact same load, through the same pistol. Back in the shop a normal cleaning showed zero lead in the cone, ahead of the cone or the barrel.

Note: This Chore Boy thing is new to me. I have been wrapping 0000 steel well around a worn brush for many years to remove stubborn lead or fouling. I have known bench rest shooters to do the same thing through their super high dollar accurate barrels. Take a piece of steel and rub it as hard as you can with 0000 steel wool for as long as you are able and then do it every day for a month. At the end of that time the steel might have a little burnish, but nothing more. Long way around of saying 0000 steel wool won't damage or wear your barrel. You will have to talk to somebody else who uses Chore Boy to get the scoop on that.

Final Word: These type of issues can be solved!

Best of luck...Charles

[RobS]

gray wolf:

I've been there too with the leading starting at the lands of the rifling and extending outward an inch or so into the barrel. I've found that if the boolit is already gas cutting before it even hits the barrel (in the cylinder throats) then you'll have more likelihood ending up with leading in the first part of the barrel as well. What diameter does your boolits drop at as cast from the mold?

I ask because if you can chamber a fatter boolit, assuming the front drive band isn't too wide and extends into the cylinder throats not enabling you to chamber the round, then you can counter the case swage or crimp issues. A person who uses softer boolits has two options as I see it. One, they can use a charge of powder that will bump or obturate the base of the bullet for a seal, which I've not had a great deal of luck with or two, keep the boolit the "correct" diameter. I say that loosely regards to diameter.

What I've found is a GC'd boolit the same diameter as the cylinder throats won't gas cut as easily and definitely not the base of the boolit thus melting the base which is why many who shoot boolits the same diameter as the cylinder throats don't have the issues if using a GC design. Those that shoot PB bullets have a greater chance of gas cutting if a good push is put on the boolit with quicker powders as you have experienced with TG powder. If a person can chamber a boolit .001 or so over the cylinder throats then there is a seal to help prevent gas cutting in the throats and have the boolit start off into the barrel as intended. At a minimum a larger seated softer boolit may swage down your boolit possibly to your intended boolit diameter. Reloading dies such as the Lyman M-die can assist with keeping your boolit diameter as intended but only if they are designed correctly as been stated by other's who have posted.

My experience:

It won't matter if you have a hard or soft boolit, if it's a PB and there is gas cutting leading is obviously more likely since it’s not sealed off. A GC helps no doubt in such a scenario. Making things worse, the higher the energy of the powder the easier it is to erode the boolit’s base. Personally, if I can chamber a bit larger than the cylinder throat I do. If I can't then I'll use a harder boolit as it helps or at least it has for me and will even GC if needed. I have a PB GC maker so it's really not a big deal.

[gray wolf]

OK, my brass is all give me brass from other folks, all different head stamps
and different lengths from members. one member sent me 50 new Starline trimmed to 1.272 he also got me some powder. I have 25 other Starline that were fired. IMI, Speer, GLF, Winchester, you get the point. Some after sizing are 1.279 1.280 1.281
And others are 1.272 1.275 funny thing is every once in a while I get a crimp that opens up ( once in a while ) I have a Wilson trimmer but I don't have the money for a case holder. I don't have and can't get any new brass. The mold I have 429421 uses
the round bottom lube groove and has the narrow front band, same diameter but narrow. So there is a mess right there.
When Ruger took the tool marks out of the forcing cone
THEY TOOK ALL THE TOOL MARKS OUT AND i THINK THEY REMOVED SOME THICKNESS FROM THE RIFLING. I should say they created a long throat in the barrel first 1 1/2" very smooth now.
It's a long transition to full size rifling, (hope I am making sense here)
The answers for the leading in the cylinder make sense to me, the unopened crimps also make sense.
The mold drops at .435 with some parts at .434 and in some small places
.433, when I size to .432 I get some small areas around the bullet base that are .4315 I can't figure that one out.
I could open the sizing die a little if need be, I was not sure how big the bullets could be and be safe. I have no problem cambering the bullets,
also the front band is no place close to being tite in the throats when loading.
I have to load a bullet way out past the crimp groove to have it hit the throats
or act like it's tite in the throat area.
What a confusing underfunded operation.

[geargnasher]

That "step" in the plug doesn't do you any favors. Make the cylindrical portion of the plug 0.001" to 0.0015" under your sized boolit diameter and longer than the case neck. The flareing angle can be about 3 to 5 degrees off centerline and you'll be good.

Exactly, thank you.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

1. All Rugers I have seen come from the factory with good forcing cones.

2. I have a 44 Special/Magnum Wilson case holder for their trimmer, that I never use. PM me your address and I will put it in the mail to you gratis. You might as well get some use out of it, it is just hanging out in my shop and will never get used by me.

3. Your cylinder has a bevel/or lead from the charge hole to the cylinder throat to guide bullets into the throat. Therefore, the front band won't feel tight in the throats as it isn't in the throat, but the bevel or lead.

4. I would think .432 should be fine in a Ruger sixgun. The newer ones will run .430 and the older ones up to .432. So, 432 should get you there whatever the vintage.

If every once in a while, the crimp opens up, what does that tell you if you are using mixed brass? I would think that is a good indicator you have a brass issue. Triming should solve that, if it indeed is the issue. You can trim the snot out of that brass, all the way back to 44 Special length if you want, but your arm will wear out using a Wilson trimer before you do that to many.

Trim your cases and anneal some of them. Stand them up in a dish of water with about 1/3 of them above the water. Play the flame of a hand held propane torch over the mouths until they start to change color and then go to the next one. This will soften the top of the case up if they are work hardned. I will bet trimed cases will cure your crimp issue and trimmed and anealed will for certain. When you are dealing with older, used mixed brass, sometimes you have to do CPR on them.

[Longwood]

That "step" in the plug doesn't do you any favors. Make the cylindrical portion of the plug 0.001" to 0.0015" under your sized boolit diameter and longer than the case neck. The flareing angle can be about 3 to 5 degrees off centerline and you'll be good.

I love it.
The loads that I have tried so far, do not seem to be effected accuracy wise by it and it sure does make loading lead bullets simpler and more precise.
I make the second steps so they barely open the brass deep enough to be able to force a flat based bullet into the mouth, by hand, up to the first grease groove. No more.
There is a tiny flare at the end of the die for cases that I forgot to bevel but it does nothing to brass that is beveled barely enough to break the sharp edge.
I have yet to have a bullet tip as it went into the seating die since I have been using them.
I use a combination taper, roll crimp, die with a sliding sleeve to size the 45 colts and a taper die for the 45-70 rounds. I also have a 45-70 seater with a sliding sleeve that I use for hard to light surplus powders.
The sleeves would catch on tipped bullets.

[RobS]

gray wolf:

If your cylinder throats have been measure out at .432 then your .433-.435ish boolit may just be what will work; they will swage down as they move through the cylinder throats. If you are loading air cooled and know they are being swaged down a bit in the case then you may be just about right for the body bands and the smaller front drive band being on the larger side really isn't going to create that much resistance or pressures issues. I've run .455 through my .4525 cylinder throats and just start load data on the lower end of the reloading books and work up. Try some as cast and rub the lube into the lube grooves with your fingers and see what happens..........you maybe surprised.

[Char-Gar]

Gray Wolf... I agree with RobS. Shooting larger that throat size bullet will do no harm and not cause much of a pressure rise unless the bullets are rock hard and you are running at red line pressure.

Longwood...I discovered the Lyman 2nd./seating step in their expanders in 1963 when I entered Bulleye competition with the 38 Special and 45 ACP. I was a poor student and could not afford a Star progressive loader like the big boys, so I used a Lyman Tru-Line Jr press and dies. The 2nd. step sure made life easier when loading ammo by volumn.

I have shot at least 500,000 rounds of handgun ammo using one of those M type dies and get excellent results. In the past few months a very few folks have decided they are bad, but I don't buy it and plan to continue their use for as long as God gives me time and healthy to continue shooting.

49 years and over a half million round of ammo loaded with these dies, tells me they are not bad as some folks suggest.

[geargnasher]

Since that was directed mostly at me, start posting some hundred-yard, .30 caliber rifle groups and I'll show you why the M-die isn't always the best choice. Then go buy and RCBS and see for yourself. I wish somebody had told me about the RCBS rifle cast boolit expander dies years ago, would have saved me a LOT of frustration.

You can load .38 and .45 ACP using needle-nose pliers for an expander and be able to tell the difference.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

Gear;

1. Nothing was directed at you.
2. Were were talking about handgun ammo.
3. I have some RCBS expanders on order.
4. We will see

[geargnasher]

Gear;

1. Nothing was directed at you. It was a reasonable assumption since I haven't seen anyone else touting the RCBS expanders lately.
2. Were were talking about handgun ammo. The OP was talking about .303 British.
3. I have some RCBS expanders on order. Excellent!
4. We will see We certainly will, I believe you will be pleased with the results in your RIFLES.

Gear.

[popper]

I assume the RCBS expander die you speak of are the powder/expander die? Does the flare and M style work, yes. As I posted before, neither is made right! We need an expander that makes 2 cylinders in the case, 1 for CB dia - .001 -.002 or so, of the proper depth. 2nd is a few more thou. for easy seating. A sharp step between them causes extra wear on the case. A flare causes excessive mouth belling. Both existing die are sensitive to case length. I suggest an angle or flare between the cylinders and the #2 to be longer to eliminate the COL problem. Nice thing about the M is cost should be much less when just replacing plugs. My mod the the rcbs plug, dipping in marine paint has done fine, did another 200 cases last nite, ~ 500 total, so far just a slight ring of scraped paint at the flare where the case stops. Gives me and extra .0015 over stock.

[Char-Gar]

Gear;

1. You are correct the OP was about the 303 Brit, but my conversation was directed to Gray Wolf and his handgun concerns.

2. I said nothing about RCBS expanders except in my response to you. I was talking about M-dies, and you are not the only one, who seems to feel they are not good things. There are three or four of late who feel that way. So the comment was not directed to you.

3. I have done some searching on this and other sites about RCBS vs. M-Die. There seems to be no consensus, that one is better than the other. I do respect your opinions, so I ordered out a .308 RCBS expander plus .309, .310 and .311 plugs and I will see what happens. I have been happy with the M-Die, but I have never used the RCBS. Before I state that one is better than the other, or they are the same, I need to have personal experience. Way to many folks post about their thories and not their experience. I don't want to be guilty of that.

I have some strong opinions about some of the issues on this board, and those opinion come from decades of loading and shooting. I have come to the point in life ( as I am sure you have also) when I trust my own experience more than the opinions and experience of others. If my experience with the RCBS expander isn't as good as yours, I would not expect you to change your opinions based on my exerience.

I keep good records of my handloads and their performance, so I should be able to tell if the RCBS expanders have merit above the M-Die, or not. I won't do much rifle shooting until the weather cools down here in deep
South Texas. There was an old song that went: "Mad dogs and Englishmen go about in the noonday sun". Well I am neither a mad dog nor an Englishment so I avoid the summer sun down here when I can.

[Char-Gar]

I assume the RCBS expander die you speak of are the powder/expander die? Does the flare and M style work, yes. As I posted before, neither is made right!

A few years back, RCBS introduced a series of rifle case neck expanders, with the cast bullet market in mind. This is their answer to Lyman's M-Die which has dominated the market for generations.

These are gizmos quite different from the powder/expander die.

I have been using Lyman M-type expanders for almost 50 years with complete satisfaction. For hangun rounds I much prefer them to other makes of expanders. So, I not one of those guys who are going to agree with you that they are not made right.

I have used RCBS, Redding, Hollywood, Herters, Pacific and few more makes of hangun dies with expanders and I have never found that one is better than the Lyman M-die. The size of the expander is more important than whether it leaves a step or a flair/bell. The crimp is also more important. I find the M-die with the step more convenient to use, and that is why I prefer them.

[gray wolf]

I don't understand the one better than the other very much either.
Seems to me a plug is a plug, if it's the correct size and expands the case to give proper bullet fit--end of story for that portion of the tool.
It opens the case for proper bullet fit err it don't. I guess it could be to short and not open far enough for the base not to get reduced.
So what the Helll else does it do ?? what else can it do ??
Now the shape of the step or flare on the case mouth I understand can have some merit some like it like this \ / and some seem to like the straight step as in the M die.
If I need .002 frictional fit and can get it from a broom stick, what is the difference
Perhaps I am showing my ignorance here.
It seems the folks I respect so much have answered here and can't agree.
That makes it hard for the people trying to get a handle on things.
Me for one try to listen very, very, close to what is said, having no money I guess helps out some times. I have to make every cent count, like the last bullet in my gun.
I do tend to go with experience and what works and what don't work.
like what was said about my cases being perhaps to long and and hitting the front of the cylinder throat, and not letting my crimps open.
I would have never thought of that.
Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed this thread.

[geargnasher]

This is what your expander needs to do. If your expander doesn't do that, it's going to damage the boolit. The spud should be sized so that the ID of the brass is .002-3" smaller than the OD of the boolit. Rifles like about 1.5 thousandths interference fit.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24608&d=1282019955

Gear

[Char-Gar]

Gray Wolf... I would agree with you that an expander is an expander and whether or not, it has a seating step or a bell is "much ado about nothing".

I think the anti-Mdie crowd thinks the the seating step in the M-die is not as good as the bell. Shoving the bullet past the 2nd. step into the expanded neck somehow damages the bullet. That is all I can figure. With either type of die, the bullet base is going to have to force it's way under pressure past either the bell or step into the expanded neck. A close look at an M-die shows there is not a sharp 90% edge at the bottom of the 2nd. step. There is a small angle/bell there, so the bullet base does not have to shove it's way past a sharp angle.

IMHO this is about folks arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. But it does give us something to talk and disgree about. That is about the importance of many of the topics here on which their is not agreement. It would be all harmless fun, but for the new folks who think it makes a difference.

As I stated before, with handgun rounds, an expander is an expander. The step provided by the M-die does hold the bullet in the case upright for seating and it doesn't rock back and forth as with a bell. That is just a convenience item. I am willing to invest $50.00 for RCBS rifle expanders, just to find out if they offer better accuracy as Gear asserts. Maybe he is right. I will shoot identical loads (except for the expander) in the same ,on the same day and see what happens.

[geargnasher]

It's simple, Char-Gar: The .30 M die has a .307/.310, which permits a .310" max boolit diameter, and it STILL has to force the neck open about four thousandths after you account for springback. The part with the larger step destroys neck tension at that point, and the smaller step makes for too much. With the RCBS expander of the correct diameter to leave your brass about 1.5 thousands smaller than your boolits and provide a gas-check-sized bell for the boolit to start, the boolit only has to FLEX the brass a small amount to seat, and will start straight due to the angle of the bell anyway rather than have to FORCE the brass to STRETCH to recieve the boolit. Now you tell ME what's the key to accuracy and how the M die helps you achieve this? If you don't understand the key, none of this will make any sense.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

Jeeze Gear, is this what this is all about?

I have Lyman M-Die spuds in .308 and .310. This takes me from .309 to .312 bullet size. I can seat a .310 bullet in the die expanded with the .308 spud and get .002 neck tension which is fine with me. I can seat .311 or .312 bullets in necks expanded with the .310 spud and have .001 or .002 neck tension and again that is fine with me.

If I need a bullet larger than .312, I have a custom made spud that goes from .307 to .317 in .001 steps. I run it far enough down in the case so I can seat the gas check and then seat the bullets.

Now let's talk about this springback. I can run a spud of whatsoever make down a rifle or case mouth and then measure the inside of the case neck with a Starett machinest hole guage and a Sartett micrometer than reads out to .0001 and I can measure no more than .0003 springback from the measured size of the spud. I have done this dozens of time and there will be a .0001 variance due to make and hardness of brass. In this case neck expansion and bullet seating equation, springback just isn't of consequence.

Now here is the bottom line...

I can take match preped 308 brass, load it with 50/WC872 and weighted and selected RCBS 165 SIL bullets, and use the M-Die mentioned above. Bullets are sized .310. I can put them in my Remington 700 VS, with an old Redfield 12X scope and put ten (10) of them into a .60 to .70 group every day of the week, wind and my coffee level permiting.

I can use the same set up and put 10 in 1.5" with my Remington 4 groove 03A3. This time the bullet is 311467 over the same charge of 50/WC872 with 1 cc PSB for compression.

My 1954 vintage Winchester 70 will do the same things with a Lyman 48 receiver sight, as will about 10 other 30 and 8mm caliber rifles.

So, I am supposed to believe the RCBS expanders I have coming is going to give me better accuracy over the accuracy destroying M-die.

I will give it a try and try to keep an open mind, but this ain't my first time at the rodeo.

[gray wolf]

for the new guys

[
B]But it does give us something to talk and disgree about. That is about the importance of many of the topics here on which their is not agreement. It would be all harmless fun, but for the new folks who think it makes a difference.[/B]

[BeeMan]

Char-gar's post about different spud diameters, spring back, measuring neck IDs, etc. explains why I make my own m-die style expanders. My tools are not cheaper than Lyman or RCBS - I'm slooow with machine tools. And that's after I find one o' them round tuits.

Not everyone has access to precision machine tools, but if you get the chance to work through the process described above, you will KNOW what works with your load combination and why. For me it's part of the enjoyment of this hobby.

BeeMan

eta: My latest effort was with a 7-08. The second load yielded .75 inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards with the RCBS 145 design. Total cartridges loaded including barrel foulers was 15. I used to spend half a box of bullets and two or three powders to get a combination to shoot this well. Understanding, measuring, and careful assembly has its rewards.

[RobS]

I'm along with BeeMan. I load on a 5 station press where I deprime/size in one, stage two I use a modified straight spud I made (no step or bell) that's .002 under for softer boolits and will adjust it to the length of the boolit seat. Stage three I use a normal powder through that just bells the case to my desired dimension, seat in four and crimp in five. No problem!!! It's what works for folks and there are different ways to arrive to the said destination; great groups and clean kills are what we are all after I believe.

[Longwood]

Char-gar's post about different spud diameters, spring back, measuring neck IDs, etc. explains why I make my own m-die style expanders. My tools are not cheaper than Lyman or RCBS - I'm slooow with machine tools. And that's after I find one o' them round tuits.

Not everyone has access to precision machine tools, but if you get the chance to work through the process described above, you will KNOW what works with your load combination and why. For me it's part of the enjoyment of this hobby.

BeeMan



I am a lot like you Beeman.
I am constantly tinkering with items that I see can be improved on.
I can make an 'M' style expander plug in about 15 minutes, if,,, I use the drill press instead of the lathe. Even faster with the lathe.
I can make them any size or shape that I want to try, With a step, without a step, with a step that has a sharp angle, or I can make them with a slight angle on the step.
I am not as convinced as some on how much case neck tension works best.
I used to shoot Sillhouette with three different calibers of rifle rounds.
One of the guns (Thompson contender in 30-30) liked cases that I could slip the bullets into by hand. I let the chamber seat the bullets.
If I opened the action with a round chambered, the bullet would usually stay in the rifling.:groner:
I had soooo many shooters tell me that it was dumb,,,, until they noted my scores were usually higher than theirs..

Of course my loads would be junk for many uses.
I am concerned with accuracy,,,, nothing else.

[Wayne Smith]

Sam, you can anneal that brass, necks only, in your lead pot, too. I hold a piece of brass in the lead with my bare hand, doing a slow count. When I can't hold the base anymore I drop it, often in water, put on a glove, and do the rest to that same count. I've annealed hundreds of cases this way and it works.

[geargnasher]

So, I am supposed to believe the RCBS expanders I have coming is going to give me better accuracy over the accuracy destroying M-die.

It did for me and has for many others. The rest is up to how you use it, with a certain ultimate goal in mind at the loading bench.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

It did for me and has for many others. The rest is up to how you use it, with a certain ultimate goal in mind at the loading bench.

Gear

So, is there any more to using it, than running it into the case mouth far enough to put a slight bell on the case mouth.?

Is there any ultimate goal to have in mind other that the best accuracy you can get out of the gun and the load?

I also know you like to use a collet die run down just far enough to give the desired tension on the bullet.

Have I missed anything?

[9.3X62AL]

I have and use M-dies, the Lyman powder-through-expander type Multi-Charge Die for handgun loading, and RCBS neck expanders. All seem to do good work, if dimensioned correctly. By that, I mean -.0015" to .-.002" a given boolit diameter on the spud portion, and the same measurement OVER boolit diameter for the small "collar" that opens the case mouth. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT--expander spuds/balls for jacketed bullet loading may not be best for cast boolit refills. Gotta run The Tale Of The Tape.

If there is an accuracy payoff between the Lyman and RCBS tooling types, I haven't noticed it. Keep in mind, none of my rifles and only a couple of my handguns are "match grade", just sporter types and mil-surps that might not be refined enough dimensionally to fully exploit the more subtle nuances of tooling.

For the OP......I have an SMLE that requires a .316" boolit. I use a custom .314" M-die spud on a 200 grain spitzer-type Lee casting that was a group buy here a few years back.

[Char-Gar]

I have and use M-dies, the Lyman powder-through-expander type Multi-Charge Die for handguns loading, and RCBS neck expanders. All seem to do good work, if dimensioned correctly. By that, I mean -.0015" to .-.002" a given boolit diameter on the spud portion, and the same measurement OVER boolit diameter for the small "collar" that opens the case mouth. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT--expander spuds/balls for jacketed bullet loading may not be best for cast boolit refills. Gotta run The Tale Of The Tape.

That is about the way I see it. If the numbers are right, the make of the expander is of little importance. It have been common knowledge, since the mind of man rememberth not, that jacket bullet expanders will do a number on cast bullets.

My first rifle cast bullet shooting was about 1960 with the 30-30 and 30-06 rounds and I bought allot of stuff from Heters through their large catalog as the prices were right. Herters sold a .311 expander that fit the threads of their dies, RCBS, C-H and Pacific. It was for cast bullet use. I still have the one I bought back then, although it doesn't get any use these days. But everybody knew to use a larger expander.

My mentors in all things shooting and reloading were very active before WWII. During "the war", ammo and components were unavailable. They had some primers, power and moulds so they shot cast bullet through their rifles during the war for fun, competition and hunting. They got me started and taught me to use a larger expander.

If would seem that every generation must reinvent the wheel. Harry Pope and the Schutzen boys in the late 19th century knew just about everything we know now. Those boys and their rifle really could sling lead into very small groups. Most of their bullets were breech seated in unsized cases. Case sizing was not much of an issue until jacketed bullet came along, and shooters discovered PDQ that necks sized for jacketed bullets destroyed cast bullet accuracy.

[ktw]

Herters sold a .311 expander that fit the threads of their dies, RCBS, C-H and Pacific. It was for cast bullet use. I still have the one I bought back then, although it doesn't get any use these days. But everybody knew to use a larger expander.

For those without the means or inclination to customize their own plugs, Buffalo Arms Company (http://www.buffaloarms.com/custom_expanders_pr-4035.aspx), among others, still sell custom straight or two step expander plugs, for RCBS or Lyman expander die bodies, in any diameters you desire.

The expander plugs in the 310 tool die sets, the predecessor of the 7/8x14" M-Dies, also come in cast bullet friendly diameters.

-ktw

[9.3X62AL]

It would seem that every generation must reinvent the wheel.

To some extent, I agree. I think more recently (after WWII) component manufacturers REALLY multiplied in number to service what was and remains a hungry market. The availability of fairly affordable jacketed bullets for rifles and handguns put a real dent in the growth of bullet casting for over a generation. I'm sure a combination of factors accounts for the rapid recent re-birth of the bullet casting hobby field, not least of which is metals pricing.

[Longwood]

none of my rifles and only a couple of my handguns are "match grade", just sporter types and mil-surps that might not be refined enough dimensionally to fully exploit the more subtle nuances of tooling.



I never loaded for anything that the groups could not be improved upon with some experimenting. That is a big part of the fun if you enjoy it.
Experimenting can be too frustrating for many people. To many it is close to a fetish.
When you find the spot where the groups quit getting smaller, then bigger, stop with that experiment and try another.

A lot can be done fairly cheaply with the Lee dies and a drill press. A lot can be done with Lee dies and a vice and electric drill motor. Home Depot has round stock and threaded stock that can often be used to make experimental die parts.
A couple of nice new files and several grades of good quality, wet and dry sand-paper, will do wonders.
I buy my sand paper from a body shop owner that has the good stuff.
If you are really, really careful you can wrap aluminum tape around internal die parts, then burnish them, so they will fit other dies.
There is nothing magical or special about dies, they are only pieces of round stock machined to a certain size.

Many die parts will switchy changey. Sometimes a little modification helps little,,,, sometimes it costs a little,,,, sometimes it works,,,, sometimes it is a waste of time and money. But when something does work.[smilie=w:

The xpanders that I bought from Track of the Wolf or Buffalo Arms (It slips my brain right now) are not hard so they can be easily made smaller or drilled for a powder dump die.

[45 2.1]

It would be all harmless fun, but for the new folks who think it makes a difference.

It would seem that you think you as well as some others here have found out everything there is to know................ Nothing could be farther from the truth.



Now you tell ME what's the key to accuracy and how the M die helps you achieve this? If you don't understand the key, none of this will make any sense.
Gear

The expander is just one of the keys..... and its not the most important one either.



Not everyone has access to precision machine tools, but if you get the chance to work through the process described above, you will KNOW what works with your load combination and why. For me it's part of the enjoyment of this hobby. BeeMan

Why it or anything works is the objective.


If there is an accuracy payoff between the Lyman and RCBS tooling types, I haven't noticed it. Keep in mind, none of my rifles and only a couple of my handguns are "match grade", just sporter types and mil-surps that might not be refined enough dimensionally to fully exploit the more subtle nuances of tooling.

Any well put together rifle can do match grade IF you feed it right.... including those maligned mil-surps.


You would all be amazed just what could be done if you opened yourself up to others ideas............:mrgreen:

[popper]

Didn't know and can't find RCBS rifle expanders on their site. I have a 40AP and 30R, plus the 40 RCBS in front of me now. The M has an expanding section, a very slight (~ .004") seating section, a really small flare section and a stop section. The 1st transition is square and has much wear on the edge. Run into the stop and you just buckled a case. I've found the .004 step isn't enough for PB seating, but works for GC base. The RCBS has an expander followed by a really big flare section. Works good for PB but amount of flare is determined by case length. As probably 90% here don't have a machine shop, we buy what the manuf. make. I'd readily pay $25 +TTL for a set of 4 M plugs in .002" increments - without the stop section (lyman wants $5 for each). $25/ diam custom? Don't think so. If J-word cast $.05/.07 each, 90% of cast shooters wouldn't be cast shooters. My advice is worth what it costs.

[Longwood]

I'd readily pay $25 +TTL for a set of 4 M plugs in .002" increments - without the stop section (lyman wants $5 for each). $25/ diam custom? Don't think so. If J-word cast $.05/.07 each, 90% of cast shooters wouldn't be cast shooters. My advice is worth what it costs.

There are several highly qualified machinists on this site that can make anything you want.
Our members often get special rates.

[popper]

Longwood - I know. Haven't seen any quoted prices yet. Just paid $250 to a plumber to replace (unscrew) a non-freeze faucet. Why? risk - blind hole and if I screw it up, I get to pull a bathtube to get access to the joint. With lathe cost burden > $90/hr you have to make a lot of parts for a profit. My point is that Lyman or RCBS could be making what we need and still turn a profit. What would it take? 1 hr reprogramming CNC tooling, a few weeks for process handling change paper work. You've heard the IRS is paying billions in fraud refunds? They are stupid. lazy or crooks to let that go on for 20 yrs. Will they do anything about it? NO.

[gray wolf]

This thread has been excellent

[H.Callahan]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone used pin gauges as expanders? I think you can get individual ones for $2-$3. One could have a whole bunch of them in various sizes and mix and match as needed.

Not sure how you would mount them to a die, but couldn't ya just chuck one up in a drill press, put a shell holder in a vice, center it all up and then just use the drill advance to expand?

[geargnasher]

The expander is just one of the keys..... and its not the most important one either.

That was my point, to THINK about the objective and how well the various tools employed are suited to achieve this.

It doesn't matter who makes it, as long as it does the job correctly.

Lyman M dies were designed for condom bullets anyway.

Gear

[Hamish]

Does this mean I should sell the half dozen M dies that I got my paws on the other day?

[Char-Gar]

It doesn't matter who makes it, as long as it does the job correctly.

Lyman M dies were designed for condom bullets anyway.

Gear

Gear:

1. I agree that it doesnt matter who makes it as long as it does the job correctly.

2. You are dead wrong that Lyman M dies were designed for condom bullets anyway. I have Lyman handgun expanders that were made generations before jacketed bullets were the thing for handgun rounds. Back in those days the only jacketed bullets were FMJ for autopistol rounds.

I have 38 Special, 357 Mag, 44 Special, 45 Colt and several other calibers with two step expanders when the only bullets that were available to the reloader were lead. These expanders are no different from the ones Lyman makes today.

Well, there is one difference. I have older two step Lyman expander that are .358 with the second step .360. Today's 38/357 expanders are .356 with the second step .360 and are designed with condom bullets in mind. But the two step M type system goes way back before jacketed handgun bullets were popular.

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=45 2.1;1798973]It would seem that you think you as well as some others here have found out everything there is to know................ Nothing could be farther from the truth."


Bobby, there you go being tacky again. If I thought I knew everything I would not be buying Gears pet expanders to give them a try.

You just seem to have a problem with folks who have opinions of their own and don't buy into your deep dark mysterious zen ways of converting a rattle trap mil-surp rifle into a MOA match rifle. For years now, you have been alluding to some way of doing things that you know and are not willing to share with others that produces cast bullet accuracy beyond what has hitherto been know. You are unwilling to put it out there, so others can try it, but hold this mystery close to your chest. I think most of us already know why you don't publish it. The only disciple you had on this stuff was booted off this board for the second and last time a couple of years ago

[45 2.1]

You just seem to have a problem with folks who have opinions of their own and don't buy into your deep dark mysterious zen ways of converting a rattle trap mil-surp rifle into a MOA match rifle. For years now, you have been alluding to some way of doing things that you know and are not willing to share with others that produces cast bullet accuracy beyond what has hitherto been know. You are unwilling to put it out there, so others can try it, but hold this mystery close to your chest. I think most of us already know why you don't publish it.

Charles, i've wrote it out several times and its in the archived posts here. Some folks got it and some didn't. I've demonstrated in person to at least 7 members here what mil-surps can do. They learned it theirselves from me and now can do it also. Its not my fault you didn't see or comprehend it. :bigsmyl2:

[Longwood]

I have bought several 'High dollar' expanders from these folks.
I bet some of our machinist members would be happy to help with special sizes.
I bought a piece of all thread to make the screw in type expander plugs with. I could never afford to buy as many as I want from RCBS.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1221/1

If you look really, close you can barely make out the "first step.

[Longwood]

I just finished loading up 100 45-70 rounds for the Sharps.
I sure do like how the M type expander plug keeps the bullets straight for the seating dies.
One nice thing about them is I don't have to bell the mouth of the case nearly as far.
The only bad thing I saw was if the case is short or long, it effect the bell more because of how slight it is.
If a case is a tiny bit short I can still start the bullet, it just takes a bit more care.
Bell mouthing cases, has always been one of my "I do not like to do that" things, that bug me.

[geargnasher]

I just finished loading up 100 45-70 rounds for the Sharps.
I sure do like how the M type expander plug keeps the bullets straight for the seating dies.
One nice thing about them is I don't have to bell the mouth of the case nearly as far.
The only bad thing I saw was if the case is short or long, it effect the bell more because of how slight it is.
If a case is a tiny bit short I can still start the bullet, it just takes a bit more care.
Bell mouthing cases, has always been one of my "I do not like to do that" things, that bug me.

If your expander made the brass the right size and the correct bell to start with, there would be no danger of starting the boolit crooked, because STRAIGHT would be the path of least resistance. The M dies (generally, dependent on exact boolit size being used) don't expand the brass enough so the boolit has to do it, and being FORCED into the case is what gets things wonky. Lyman attempted to correct this not by making the spuds in a variety of fine sizes to match the user's needs, but but make a second step for starting the boolit. Depending on how deep you have the spud set, you ruin the case tension for the entire depth of the second spud by over-expanding it. The proper bellmouth is easily corrected with a light roll crimp, even if you only crimp enough to straighten the bell and not actually bite into the boolit. If you expand with an M die deeply enough to start the boolit straight, even a taper-crimp die can't restore the correct tension to the brass where it was overstreched by the second step of the expander spud.

Gear

[Longwood]

If your expander made the brass the right size and the correct bell to start with, there would be no danger of starting the boolit crooked, because STRAIGHT would be the path of least resistance. The M dies (generally, dependent on exact boolit size being used) don't expand the brass enough so the boolit has to do it, and being FORCED into the case is what gets things wonky. Lyman attempted to correct this not by making the spuds in a variety of fine sizes to match the user's needs, but but make a second step for starting the boolit. Depending on how deep you have the spud set, you ruin the case tension for the entire depth of the second spud by over-expanding it. The proper bellmouth is easily corrected with a light roll crimp, even if you only crimp enough to straighten the bell and not actually bite into the boolit. If you expand with an M die deeply enough to start the boolit straight, even a taper-crimp die can't restore the correct tension to the brass where it was overstreched by the second step of the expander spud.

Gear

You sure make a lot of assumptions.
First off, my cases were all trimmed so the cases sized with the Track of the Wolf expander, did not have much of a bell. What it did have, I barely touched with a taper die.
I don't like a roll crimp and do not use them where I am not forced to use them.
I did barely kiss the die with a Hornady taper crimp die to but I did not try to force the brass back to where it was because I did not need too.
It was not too big, so why would I.
I do not believe that a certain amount of case tension is all that important and have proved it to myself more than once.
I used a .458 expander that fit my unsized, fireformed brass and my .460gr bullets, sized to .457, perfectly. Just enough spring back to suit me. There was no FORCING, or resizing of the case by the bullet. The bullets are water cooled, hard cast, so I am not in the least worried about a thousanth of an inch.


I am expecting shooting friends to come up from the metropolis this Sunday and will be shooting what I loaded so I shall see how it works pretty soon.

[Longwood]

If your expander made the brass the right size and the correct bell to start with, there would be no danger of starting the boolit crooked, because STRAIGHT would be the path of least resistance.


Gear

I try to not bell case mouths far enough to make it "Easy" to start a bullet.
I don't care for the balancing act when I used a bell. mouth.
I like the dual step expander, a lot, so far ,and am very glad that a member that uses them told me about them.

The path of least resistance you talk about sure won't work if a bearing or bronze bushing is started crooked...
I will go by a lot of experience of seeing how people destroyed parts etc., by believing that, and ignore your comment.

[Char-Gar]

If your expander made the brass the right size and the correct bell to start with, there would be no danger of starting the boolit crooked, because STRAIGHT would be the path of least resistance. The M dies (generally, dependent on exact boolit size being used) don't expand the brass enough so the boolit has to do it, and being FORCED into the case is what gets things wonky. Lyman attempted to correct this not by making the spuds in a variety of fine sizes to match the user's needs, but but make a second step for starting the boolit. Depending on how deep you have the spud set, you ruin the case tension for the entire depth of the second spud by over-expanding it. The proper bellmouth is easily corrected with a light roll crimp, even if you only crimp enough to straighten the bell and not actually bite into the boolit. If you expand with an M die deeply enough to start the boolit straight, even a taper-crimp die can't restore the correct tension to the brass where it was overstreched by the second step of the expander spud.

Gear

Gear..I am getting ready to head out to the range and checked this thread before leaving. I just happen to have several hundred freshly loaded 38 Special and 357 Magnum rounds. Dry Creek Bullet Works send me some of their bullets with a new lube to try here in a hot climate.

These rounds were loaded with a Lyman 2 step M-type die. I made the second step deep enough to hold the bullets upright while sitting in the loading block. This dies measures .358 and .360. The bullets are .358.

I also happend to have a good Starrett micrometer laying on the desk, that measures to .0001. So I put the mic on the loaded rounds and measured from the crimp back to the end of the bullet. I could not find any measurable difference. Part of the measurment covered the 2nd. step expanded portion of the case. So the seating of the bullet and the die took out any trace of the expanded second step that you alluded to. So, that shoots that theory in the head.

Your issues seems to be predicated on the fact that it takes more force to seat a bullet in an M-die expanded neck than it does in a RCBS expanded neck. If the size of the spuds are the same, how could it take more force to seat a bullet in one or the other? The only way the force required would be greater is if the inside diamter of the neck was smaller.

Sorry Gear, but you just are not making any sense.

PS: FedX just delivered my RCBS expanders. I have the die body and expanding plugs of .308, .309, .310 and .311. The mic was put on them anc showed they were .0001 - .0002 under size stamped on plugs. This is at the largest spot just under the bell. They all have a .0005 taper to them, from top to bottom, so we are going to have a little cone. This is different from the M-dies which don't have a taper. That very well may be an advantage.

As stated above, my favorite expander is quite long and tapers from .307 to .317 in .001 steps. I run the expander down far enough to just start the gas check and then seat. This die also leaves a cone, and I have never seen it to be a problem, but the taper would be more than the RCBS plug, depending on the length the bullet seated in the neck.

PPS: Just got back from the range. Boy is it hot, the termometer in my Ford F150 showed 98 degrees when I left the range.

Just to double check on my prior measurments of the loaded rounds, I sized and expanded with my Lyman expander (358 X 360) one of the fired cases that I had measured before. After sizing and expanding the larger second step measures .381 outside diameter. With the bullet seated and crimped, the outside of the case where the step was measured .378, as did the rest of the case where the bullet is seated. So, no doubt about it, seating and crimping removes 100% of the expanded second step.

The cases are thick Lake City 78 38 Special. Being a primative sort and a technological retard, ammo was loaded with a 1930's Ideal No. 3 tong tool, and early 60's Lyman 310 dies. I tend to be old school on this things.

[popper]

H.Callahan Pin gauges, good idea. I think 1 of the companies here basically does that, from the pic on their site. Home brew would be nice, I think getting good alignment would be a problem. You don't want to have the spud off center or at an angle, that would make bad ammo.

[H.Callahan]

H.Callahan Pin gauges, good idea. I think 1 of the companies here basically does that, from the pic on their site. Home brew would be nice, I think getting good alignment would be a problem. You don't want to have the spud off center or at an angle, that would make bad ammo.
Yeah, I was wondering if a drill press was going to be good enough or if some kind of die holding mechanism would have to be designed. Some kind of collet on a stem or something...

[Longwood]

H.Callahan Pin gauges, good idea. I think 1 of the companies here basically does that, from the pic on their site. Home brew would be nice, I think getting good alignment would be a problem. You don't want to have the spud off center or at an angle, that would make bad ammo.

Doubtful that they would use gauges.
They can machine a cheap piece of hot-roll to any size they wish.

[rollmyown]

Thanks to all the participants in this thread!

Lots of food for thought here. Also lots of stuff I haven't really considered. I think I can order my plugs with some confidence now.

[462]

Earlier this evening, I sent Buckshot a PM regarding an 8 mm M-die plug. This will be my first order from him, but with the exception of .30 caliber, all the other calibers I load cast for have custom plugs.

[Longwood]

I have been following the 'M' die threads for nearly a year and finally got everything sorted out, some ammo loaded and a test shooting session, in.
I have three rifles that I never got to shoot much because of a lousy Ultralight airplane landing, that broke my Clavicle in several places. That was last Halloween so I did not rush shooting again.
I fired a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70, a Taurus Thunderbolt chambered for 45 Colt, and a Rossi 92 Carbine, also in 45 Colt.
Since all of the rifles were new to me, it was pretty much a first text. I fired the same loads in the Taurus and the Rossi.
The Rossi 92 actually got better groups than the Taurus that has the longer barrel and a hooded front site. Not by very much, the biggest group measured 4.10 and the smallest was 2.88". Needs some work.
The smallest 50 yard group with the Rossi, was right at 2.50 but the largest was only 3.30. I plan on playing with that load some also.
The load was a wild guess of 5.5gr of 700-X, Wolf primers and a
Lyman 452424 honed too cast .454 with wheel weights with 4" of 50-50 bar solder added to 20 pounds.
I lube with a goofy mix of lots of good advise that I got some of here. I pan lube in Xmas cookie tins and leave my bullets in it until I am ready to use them then cut them then.
All rounds, were loaded using 'M' Type expanders that I either bought from Track of the Wolf, or made myself, to the sizes and exact profile I wanted. The brass mouth gets sized to .4535-.455

I did not get around to bulls-eye testing the Sharps for groups. I fired 10 at one gallon paint buckets, with no lids, full of dry ceiling texture, and hit them eight of the ten that I fired at them at 136 yards. The first two misses were because of sights being slightly left.
The 45-70 load I was shooting was 12gr of Trailboss and a Lee 400 gr sized to .458, the same size my brass gets sized to. The second step opens the case mouth to .459.
My last loading step is to barely kiss the case with a Hornady taper crimper just in case it gets the tiny bell that non beveled brass can get.
I am liking the 'M' type expander stubs.

The kids took the rifle from me, and would not give it back until the 50 bullets were all sent down range.
You should see the reaction of a skinny little, fourteen year old girl, when she makes a bomb blast, size cloud, of white powder, at 136 yards, with a Buffalo rifle.:holysheep They all now have video's of shooting the big gun, the bomb blast hits, and photos of little hands, holding the "Monster" rounds.

PS
The little girl, listened closely to everything I told her, and out-shot every single one of her older friends, that were all boys. I let her play with the Savage 17 and she was cleaning off targets like a Pro in a few minutes of trying.
After telling her about the young Ladies that won Gold medals for us, she ran over and started talking to her dad about it.
Oooops I hope he does not come back in a few years and blame me for how much he has spent.

[geargnasher]

Glad you had some good times, especially with the kiddos, but I'm trying to figure out how minute of gallon bucket with a buffalo rifle proves the M die is a world-record enabling tool.

I can hit gallon buckets at 500 yards all day, even in the wind, with my Shiloh 45/90, using boolits seated with my thumb in fired, unsized, unbelled cases .

Gear

[Longwood]

Glad you had some good times, especially with the kiddos, but I'm trying to figure out how minute of gallon bucket with a buffalo rifle proves the M die is a world-record enabling tool.



Show me where I said that,

[Longwood]

Glad you had some good times, especially with the kiddos, but I'm trying to figure out how minute of gallon bucket with a buffalo rifle proves the M die is a world-record enabling tool.

I can hit gallon buckets at 500 yards all day, even in the wind, with my Shiloh 45/90, using boolits seated with my thumb in fired, unsized, unbelled cases .

Gear

How many years have you been shooting your rifle?
I have had mine for approximately two and one half months and have fired it a total of around 17, or 18, rounds so far.
I have no idea how well I can shoot with it but I know how well I can shoot, and I have lots and lots of experience making up target loads, so I have plenty of confidence in my abilities with it.
I am happy with my early on results and will stick with the M type die for now, and if I run into a hitch with it, I will go back to what I did in the past. Thing is,,, I did not know what I do now and my past experience with cast bullets convinced me in a hurry to not try to compete or shoot accurately with anything but jacketed bullets.
Things are looking much better now that I am reading, learning, and taking the good advise from the few people that I trust here.

[geargnasher]

Then what did your use of the M die in that instance prove? If it made your loading experience better, cool, but since you have little to compare it to accuracy-wise with those guns and loads I guess I'm missing the point.

Gear

[jbelder]

Most definitely

[geargnasher]

How many years have you been shooting your rifle?
I have had mine for approximately two and one half months and have fired it a total of around 17, or 18, rounds so far.
I have no idea how well I can shoot with it but I know how well I can shoot, and I have lots and lots of experience making up target loads, so I have plenty of confidence in my abilities with it.
I am happy with my early on results and will stick with the M type die for now, and if I run into a hitch with it, I will go back to what I did in the past. Thing is,,, I did not know what I do now and my past experience with cast bullets convinced me in a hurry to not try to compete or shoot accurately with anything but jacketed bullets.
Things are looking much better now that I am reading, learning, and taking the good advise from the few people that I trust here.

Went to the head, missed your post. I have about 200 rounds through that rifle.

Your results with cast boolits will be much better as you learn what it takes to make them shoot as well or better than jacketed bullets. I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it, but I AM asking all of you who are searching for better results to look at the process you're using very carefully, listen to the people who are talking about different methods, and evaluate those methods for yourself instead of siding with the person you THINK knows more than the others or has been doing it longer, yada yada yada.

I think I finally irritated Char-Gar enough to actually get him to try it, and I hope he improves his groups with the RCBS tool. It's not about being right here (for me at least), it's about sharing some knowledge, fighting off old wive's tales, and improving the shooting experience. If you're serious about rifle accuracy, M-dies and other two-step expanders aren't going to get you as far most of the time as better designed expanders. ABelieve me, I was an M-die fan until recently.

Gear

[Longwood]

Then what did your use of the M die in that instance prove? If it made your loading experience better, cool, but since you have little to compare it to accuracy-wise with those guns and loads I guess I'm missing the point.

Gear

You are correct,,, so far it has proved nothing other than how much better I like using them instead of belling my brass. But then,,, I explained that I have not had a chance to prove anything yet. Did you see somewhere that I did say that it proved anything accuracy wise, or any other way?
I learned back before I ever started to compete to never believe that another shooters techniques are the best, and I have proven it for myself numerous times.
I told the members in a past post that I would let them know how my tests went. I was simply following up.
My, pulled out of the blue, 45 Colt rounds, seem to be working fairly well and I am still working on cast bullet loads for the rifles. The same rifles that I said that I had not had a chance to fire or test ANY loads very much.
I plan on trying everything as I work up my loads. If I HAVE to go back to belling to get accuracy to suit ME, and nobody else but ME, I certainly will.
You sure do seem to be offended because some people try different things than you have found to be suitable for you. Maybe you should try something different also.

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=geargnasher;1802945]Went to the head, missed your post. I have about 200 rounds through that rifle.

Me too.


I think I finally irritated Char-Gar enough to actually get him to try it, and I hope he improves his groups with the RCBS tool.


I took your advise and also bought the super expensive for what I got, RCBS tool. I plan on trying it also.

[Longwood]

By the way Gear
I have been reading most of you guys posts about the ultimate lube.
I would have to check my notes for what I ended up making but I must say. I have never seen slicker cleaner barrels after shooting cast bullets in all of my years of fighting the lube and size issue.
We shot over 150 through them and I was very impressed indeed.
I have to thank you guys for that so, you may be proven correct on the M dies as well.

[geargnasher]

[QUOTE=geargnasher;1802945]I took your advise and also bought the super expensive for what I got, RCBS tool. I plan on trying it also.

See what I mean? How can you pass judgement on value when you haven't even experimented with them yet?

By the way, if you purchased the die for your .45 Colt or .45/70 you might not see the same improvements as you might with a high-velocity smallbore. Like I said, I seat boolits with my thumb in that big boy and it shoots lights out. I'd use the M-die that came with the set but it's about five thousandths too small.

Gear

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=Longwood;1802962]

See what I mean? How can you pass judgement on value when you haven't even experimented with them yet?


Gear

The only judging I have done is how much better I like them for seating my bullets.:bigsmyl2: I like. Not a lot more to say.
The softer Paper patched bullets I made, I can load with my fingers. I am just beginning to load them and have not fired any except in my Hiwall right before I had my accident.
I am trying my best to catch up on the year that I missed, but I have been too busy with press designing and modifications.
I made another mod, today. I am doing an experiment with the little chea[ single stage Lee presses. I did not want to make the big hole in my bench, so I reversed the ram and made a little sheet aluminum gadget for catching the brass. Not sure if it will work yet, I have no primed and dirty brass.

[Char-Gar]

Arrggg!! I am not as close minded as some believe. I bought the RCBS expanders, because I really can't say they are worse, better or same as the M-Die until I have tried them. What really iritates are folks that say something is no good base on theory with no experience to back that up.

Now Gear, don't misconscrew this to think you are not irritating, for at times you are. But you are right far more than you are wrong and therefore I pay attention to your posts. :-)

[geargnasher]

I never say anything is no good without PLENTY of experience to back it up. Of that, you can rest assured. You can also be certain that when I find a better mousetrap I'm going to tell you about it when the subject comes up, along with my take on WHY it's better or at least works better for me.

I've always thought the Lyman M die was a stupid design, and on several of mine I've ground down the step to make a gentle taper, and for some things that works ok and really was an improvement to shooting, but they still don't bellmouth the case correctly, and I don't have a good way to fix that part. There are better designs out there and it does make a difference on paper.

Gear

[popper]

I just want a tool that does what I want it to do, after I figure out what I want it to do, of course. I can only figure out what it's supposed to do by listening to you guys. I don't have years of casting or reloading experience, but so far my brain still works. Wish other body parts did too. Pin gauges are probably ground to size, not cut and tolerance QC is provided by the supplier. However, you are right, cold rolled tool steel is all that is required and it tempers good if needed. I still see major advantage to the M replaceable pug, even if the profile is improper.

[Char-Gar]

I never say anything is no good without PLENTY of experience to back it up. Of that, you can rest assured. You can also be certain that when I find a better mousetrap I'm going to tell you about it when the subject comes up, along with my take on WHY it's better or at least works better for me.

I've always thought the Lyman M die was a stupid design, and on several of mine I've ground down the step to make a gentle taper, and for some things that works ok and really was an improvement to shooting, but they still don't bellmouth the case correctly, and I don't have a good way to fix that part. There are better designs out there and it does make a difference on paper.

Gear

Hay veremos! (We will see)

If you are right, I have no trouble saying that. If you are wrong, I have no trouble saying that either.

[Longwood]

I've always thought the Lyman M die was a stupid design, and on several of mine I've ground down the step to make a gentle taper, and for some things that works ok and really was an improvement to shooting, but they still don't bellmouth the case correctly, and I don't have a good way to fix that part. There are better designs out there and it does make a difference on paper.

Gear

That is all opinions that you made.
You found that they did not work well in your 30 caliber rifle. That does not mean that they are bad, or will not work well for others. No two guns, (especially if a different caliber), that I ever had, liked the exact same load or loading methods.
I quit competing, so hitting golf balls with iron sighted pistols, at 200 yards, is not that important to me anymore.
It can be time consuming to start the bullets into my cases, when I use the M type expanders, but I have not gotten a tipped bullet since I started using them.
I found that bullets starting in cases crooked, caused match loosing problems. I have not seen that problem since I tried the, new to me, M type expander.
None of the cast shooters that competed at any of the five ranges that I competed at used gas checks, so I did not and still do not, bother with them. Therefore, I don't have rounded corners on my bullet base that may load easier with a bell mouth than my sharp based bullets.

[45 2.1]

What really iritates are folks that say something is no good base on theory with no experience to back that up. :-)

I'm curious as to just how much experience is enough for you. That would be things you have done yourself, not what you've seen somebody else do or read about. Do you have an answer or is this just a comment you've made.

[geargnasher]

Longwood, you know what they say about everyone having an opinion and a turd-cutter, but opinions based on carefully repeated results don't stink.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

"Why can't we just all get along"...Rodney King

Well Rodney, because it isn't what we say, but how we say it. Now here is a good example.

Example A: M-Dies are a stupid idea! The M-Die uses hears that as "Only stupid people use M-Dies".

Example B: My experience tell me that there are better ways to expand case necks than using M-Dies. The M-Die user hears that and thinks "Well, perhaps there is a better way, than the way I have been doing it."

Thus endeth the communications lesson for today. Yes, I am a hypocrite and often are guilty of Example A statements myself. The difference is I know better.

[Longwood]

Longwood, you know what they say about everyone having an opinion and a turd-cutter, but opinions based on carefully repeated results don't stink.

Gear

I will have an opinion of my own as soon as I do the load work and tests.
My "Carefully repeated results", may prove that you are full of what does the stinking.:kidding: Kidding,,,, or am I?:bigsmyl2:

[Longwood]

Example A: M-Dies are a stupid idea! .



Maybe it should read,,,, People who use the wrong sized spud in their M die, are,,,

[BeeMan]

Sad to watch this thread deteriorate...

I can and have learned from many here, but am prone to just walk away if the exchange starts turning unpleasant. This hobby should be fun, not an exercise in filtering through the noise for a nugget.

[r1kk1]

+1

R1kk1

[Alan in Vermont]

The arguing sure does wonders for the post counts of those involved. And that's about all it has done for the last couple pages. Once you state your opinion and maybe even explain WHY you formed that opinion, STFU!!

[Char-Gar]

Of necessity, there will be some give and take to explain your experience/point and understand the experience/point of another. This will involve some back and forth. But once a clear understanding of the difference is established, then it is time to let it go. Nobody is going to convince another he is smarter, more experienced and wiser than another no matter how many times he hammers on his point.

From that point on, things will go south and it becomes nothing more than a whizing match laced with acrimony. Things are said in ways designed to provoke a negative response and that is what is given.

We have reached the point on this thread when everything positive has been accomplished and time to go on to another topic. Therefore, primises condsidered, I hereby STFU

[Longwood]

The arguing sure does wonders for the post counts of those involved. And that's about all it has done for the last couple pages. Once you state your opinion and maybe even explain WHY you formed that opinion, STFU!!

There is more than someones opinion, being taught and learned here.
Arguing about shooting and loading information has been going on since I can remember and then some.
Listening to and reading them, then trying a lot of the recommendations, is how I learned nearly everything I know about loading and shooting.
I recall when the cast boolit Messiah, Elmer, and his cronies would get to arguing,,, I sure wish they had the web and we did not have to wait for the next months mag to come out.
I paid for the magazine then read word for word and learned all I could.
You do know you have the option to read responses or ignore them. Right?
A little arguing can be useful but when people start whining and sniveling about it, is when the thread ends and any more USEFUL information that may come out of it gets lost.

[geargnasher]

Some of the best information I've gotten off this site was from some pretty heated threads, the sort that gives moderators ulcers. Not saying this is one of those "great" or "heated" threads, but if you let the comments of those playing a little "intellectual graba$$" turn you off, your loss. None of this is life-or-death serious, or really all that important in the greater scheme of things. Separate the wheat from the chaff, or not. Your choice. Remember what Ken said about this being a "Salad Bar" forum, if you don't like onions or bacon bits, leave it alone.

Gear

[Dannix]

That "step" in the plug doesn't do you any favors. Make the cylindrical portion of the plug 0.001" to 0.0015" under your sized boolit diameter and longer than the case neck. The flareing angle can be about 3 to 5 degrees off centerline and you'll be good
Exactly, thank you.

Gear
So, just to clarify, you guys are using a separate die to flare e.g. a lee universal flarer?

Oh, I see. You guys are simply using plugs with a taper rather than a two-step. I suppose the issue really isn't RCBS vs Lyman expander dies, as much as it is with the plug implemented? (I've always thought about the M-die as just a medium for custom plugs i.e. set aside the stock, j-word oriented plugs.)


Are you as critical about the two-step design when implemented in custom plugs with the desired specs i.e. the cylindrical part .0015-.002 under boolit size and the step .001 over boolit size?


Thanks,

[Char-Gar]

Dannix

At the end of this thread, after all is said, the best I can figure out is it all boils down to whether there is a round bullet seating step or a flair at the case mouth. The size of the expander, whether it is custom or store bought makes no difference to the anti-Mdie folks.

The little bullet seating step at the case mouth produced with an Mdie degrades accuracy in their thinking. I just don't see how they come to that conclusion. I have been using M-die expander plugs both custom and stock for decades and can product sub-MOA case bullet loads using them.

When the weather cools down, I will do some shooting to find out if they are right or not. I will do this with my rifles and my cases. There is no way, I could test all of the possible combinations, but I can know if the Lyman M-Die or the RCBS expander makes any difference to accuracy in my life.

Which ever way this goes, won't cause anybody to change their minds. They have already determined what works best for them.

[45 2.1]

At the end of this thread, after all is said, the best I can figure out is it all boils down to whether there is a round bullet seating step or a flair at the case mouth. The size of the expander, whether it is custom or store bought makes no difference to the anti-Mdie folks. I believe you saw post #94, the one you just responded to. How can you make this statement?

The little bullet seating step at the case mouth produced with an Mdie degrades accuracy in their thinking. Well, from numerous tests with Lyman die sets including their M dies, that would be a correct statement. This is with Lyman generated data, dies and reccomendations except for softer boolits. It certainly messes the base edges up on PB softer boolits. Same brass and same boolits were tested side by side, cartridges were loaded with Lyman and RCBS dies, then boolits were pulled with an impact puller, boolits were inspected and measured for diameter. Results were that Lyman M dies rounded PB boolit bases unevenly. Cartridges did not have the same accuracy levels in the same gun with the lesser going to Lyman loaded cartridges. I just don't see how they come to that conclusion. By extensive testing. I have been using M-die expander plugs both custom and stock for decades and can product sub-MOA case bullet loads using them. So can I, but I can do much better useing something else.

When the weather cools down, I will do some shooting to find out if they are right or not. I will do this with my rifles and my cases. There is no way, I could test all of the possible combinations, but I can know if the Lyman M-Die or the RCBS expander makes any difference to accuracy in my life.

Which ever way this goes, won't cause anybody to change their minds. They have already determined what works best for them.
This is quite true, use whatever your happy with.

[Longwood]

Dannix

When the weather cools down, I will do some shooting to find out if they are right or not. I will do this with my rifles and my cases. There is no way, I could test all of the possible combinations, but I can know if the Lyman M-Die or the RCBS expander makes any difference to accuracy in my life.



I have the RCBS expander spud for my rifles now.
I also have M type die spuds, that are made to the "Correct Size" for cast bullets.
I will be doing some controlled tests in two calibers and four rifles if all goes well.

[popper]

OK, I had a thought and checked it out. I used a 40SW M die. I 1st sized with RCBS die - 2 well used cases. Then I used the M die. Miking the OD of the cases .471,.418,.421,.421 at the mouth.
ID .396, .398,.410. I tried to get the body sized case, stepped part and exact mouth. I used a 10x magnifier to see the step on the inside of the case. So, best I can tell, the M does NOT make a nice step, but a smaller and controlled taper or bell. This extends ~ .05" into the case. Any more (set your die wrong) and you end up with an RCBS 'bell' on the case. This bell is BAD cause you ran into the stop section of the die and just squished the bell instead of a controlled flare. To continue with design problems, the RCBS lets you make as large a flare as you want (too much), Flaring with the M die ruins the case. Try it on your M die.

[Char-Gar]

I know zip about 40 S&W dies. I have measured many many other M-Die spuds in sixgun and rifle calibers. They all have a lower straight section of a given size and a larger second step of a given size. Both sections are round, straight and not tapered.

On some M-Die spuds there is a tapered section ABOVE the second step that will put a flare on the case mouth IF you run it up that far. I have never done that and didn't think it was there to be used. I always assumed it was to give notice if you ran the spud too far into the case. At any rate, I have never used it and would not recomment folks to so do. I can see how that would do nothing good for a case or accuracy.

You say that flaring with an M-Die ruins cases..well yea...but you are not supposed to flare with an M-die

[HARRYMPOPE]

The issue of expanders for cast necks has heated up as of late with some folks condeming M-Dies as worthless and accuracy destroyers. I take this with a grain of salt.

I am one of those guys who still like the M-Die and am fond of that seating step that some folks find so odious.

I agree.There are other types and shapes that work also and some of the m dies in certain calibers could have better dimensions.To call them worthless in a blanket statement is not fair.I have use them for 30 years (18 yrs in registered CBA matches) and can attest that they do work.Most of the fellows who i competed with(who beat me most often) used them too.If they didn't work they wouldn't use them.I am talking sub 1/2 MOA capable 30 BR benchrest rifles that can tell a difference is accuracy.All of you who are close enough to enter a registered CBA match should do so.The guys are helpful and you will find few post on forums regularly.You wouldn't believe it but many dont weigh or age bullets or worry about some of the small things others stress over before ever puling a trigger to test. Also your always sub MOA sporter rifle is often not so in a 40 shot timed match.

George

[Longwood]

To continue with design problems, the RCBS lets you make as large a flare as you want (too much), Flaring with the M die ruins the case.



Huh????

Is this all one sentence.?

[Longwood]

On some M-Die spuds there is a tapered section ABOVE the second step that will put a flare on the case mouth IF you run it up that far. I have never done that and didn't think it was there to be used.



I takes about a minute to remove the radius.
I use a case activated measure on my flaring dies so I do that to many of my spuds.
A teeny tiny radius there will also help if I am too lazy to chamfer after trimming.
Teeny tiny! Nothing like the gigantic, brass destroyer radius, that RCBS puts on theirs.

[popper]

I make rambling sentences, not an english major. Char-Gar I was testing to see if M makes a sharp step in the brass or a flare. It, in 40sw, makes a slight and controlled flare. Same for my 30 & 31R spuds. All 3 of mine have an abrupt stop to a large diam. where they probably put it in the lathe chuck. No intentional flare section. Just providing data, not opinions.

[machinisttx]

Reading this thread has made my brain hurt. There are lots of folks more educated than I on the subjects of reloading, cast bullets, and reloading cast bullets. I'm not a genius and I didn't stay in a holiday inn express last night...however, I do have a decade of experience as a precision machinist. I have formulated a few opinions on various things from that experience as well as my own reloading experience.

One opinion is that the 1/4-20 and 1/4-28 threaded rods as used by several die manufacturers to hold the decapping pin/expander ball and seater plug are ****. They have no rigidity and almost never center themselves properly. Using threads to align anything with precision is a crapshoot, even more so as the length increases or diameter decreases. That also leaves out thread fit, which is another factor. Tight fitting threads will align better than loose ones.

A second opinion is that depending on a chamfer, or in this case, a flare, for alignment is an exercise in futility. It will aid in alignment, but that's it. If the direction of travel is not parallel to the hole, and the axis of the cylindrical object being pressed in isn't parallel to the hole, the finished product isn't going to be concentric. The difference will be undetectable at the junction of the two, but as the distance from the junction increases, so will the measurable difference.

A third opinion concerns seater plugs. Most are junk and do very little to align the bullet with the case. Seater plugs intended for spitzer type bullets generally only bear on a very, very small area of the bullet, and are mounted on the end of a small, flex prone rod of already questionable alignment. Seater plugs for pistol bullets are sometimes a little better about fitting the bullet, but some fit no bullet profile known to man(lee is the worst offender in my experience). If the plug doesn't fit the bullet precisely, how can it be expected to align one?

A machinist friend of mine had no end of concentricity trouble with a couple of different rifle cartridges. The dies he used featured those thin, flex prone rods with loose threads for the decapper pin/expander ball. No matter how he tried, he could not get that rod centered in the die. He asked my opinion, and I told him to ditch the expander ball in favor of expanding with an M die. As if by magic, his concentricity problems disappeared and his groups shrank. If you don't already know what the problem was, I'll tell you. That crappy, thin, flex prone, loose threaded rod was pulling the neck out of alignment with the case body when the expander ball passed through. The M die has a larger stem and tighter threads, so it aligned itself much more concentrically within the die body.

I haven't used the RCBS expander, but I can't see a single advantage to doing so. It uses the same small, flex and misalignment prone, loosely threaded 1/4-20 or 1/4-28 rod as many sizing dies. It additionally has an extra deficiency(in comparison to size dies) in that the expander portion is much larger and will amplify any misalignment present over that length in addition to creating more axial loading on that flex prone rod.

Using M dies, bullets "snap" into the case mouth well aligned for me, something I've never been able to achieve using flare dies.

If you're having good luck with the RCBS version, I'm happy for you. I see no potential advantage, and thus no reason to spend my money on them.

[Char-Gar]

Thanks for your post. That is something I have never considered, but it sure makes sense to me.

I have had good luck with M-Dies and straight line seating using either a Vickerman die or a Wilson chamber type seating die. With either one, the bullets go straight into the case mouth.

[felix]

It makes no difference what dies are used provided the runout is zero BOTH statically and dynamically. High pressure rounds during ignition will expand the base of the the projectile, and in most situations enough to cause runout. If the runout is not corrected via freebore before cone entry, the projectile will be permanently damaged by any successive contraction. Using a well made gun with its set of shaved cases and dies will guarantee the runout measurements which favor max accuracy.

Any factory die manufacturer can approach hand die accuracy when required to do so. The best are the so-called straight line sizers and seaters. The Bonanza/Forester BR dies are what I consider satisfactory for factory rifles. They don't make pistol dies like this, so the preference will go to Hornady who does. These dies, by both manufacturers, should be made by them using optical measurements of expanded cases and their initial projectiles from and for the gun in question.

... felix

[Longwood]

It makes no difference what dies are used provided the runout is zero BOTH statically and dynamically. High pressure rounds during ignition will expand the base of the the projectile, and in most situations enough to cause runout. If the runout is not corrected via freebore before cone entry, the projectile will be permanently damaged by any successive contraction. Using a well made gun with its set of shaved cases and dies will guarantee the runout measurements which favor max accuracy.

Any factory die manufacturer can approach hand die accuracy when required to do so. The best are the so-called straight line sizers and seaters. The Bonanza/Forester BR dies are what I consider satisfactory for factory rifles. They don't make pistol dies like this, so the preference will go to Hornady who does. These dies, by both manufacturers, should be made by them using optical measurements of expanded cases and their initial projectiles from and for the gun in question.

... felix

After trying a Hornady seater, that is what I used on all of my rifle cartridges from then on.
It is what I have for my 45-70's. I am not competing with them though and have not done concentric checks yet.

[geargnasher]

If you're flexing a 1/4" hardened steel rod when seating boolits or expanding cases, you have problems that FAR outweigh any effect of the particular shape of the expander. Many people are loading extremely accurate ammunition by observing some basic principles and making sure certain things are accomplished by the tools used: The case must fit the chamber, the boolit must fit the throat and leade, the neck tension must be right and consistent, the seating depth must be right, and the entire loaded cartridge must be concentric. How you achieve this is up to you, but observing certain practices in the sizing step sets the stage for minimal runout. You DON'T need a rigid expander to force the case neck straight, nor do you need a straight-line seating die to "force" the boolit in the case straight. If the case neck isn't straight in line when you seat the boolit, you will only bend the boolit attempting to seat it straight in the case. If the case isn't concentric when sized, the expander won't fix the neck. See?

I think the biggest problem here is that most of you aren't visualizing exactly what you need to do to get things in alignment, and haven't experimented with tooling enough to observe the effects of changes to really isolate the cause/effect relationships with all the aspects of the loading process.

That being said, I can load ammo with a half-thousandth measured runout at the shoulder/body junction using an RCBS FL size die with no expander button, RCBS cast bullet expander die, and Lee dead-length seater die with the loose plug threads, o-ring friction lock, and floating, generic seater plug. Oh, and all that using a Lee turret press and leaving the locknut on the expander plug stem loose. Think about it and you might see how concentricity is set up from the start and mainly just not screwed up by the later processes so the finished ammo aligns the boolit with the barrel. If the case neck and mouth are expanded to the correct DIMENSIONS the boolit will seat straight in the neck because it is the path of least resistance, not because you have a flex-proof die system and case support system that will force-feed lead alloy into the brass.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Dannix

At the end of this thread, after all is said, the best I can figure out is it all boils down to whether there is a round bullet seating step or a flair at the case mouth. NO! If that's the best you can figure you haven't been figuring at all. The size of the expander, whether it is custom or store bought makes no difference to the anti-Mdie folks. WHAT?????? Have you read anything I've written on this thread?

The little bullet seating step at the case mouth produced with an Mdie degrades accuracy in their thinking. I just don't see how they come to that conclusion. I have been using M-die expander plugs both custom and stock for decades and can product sub-MOA case bullet loads using them. Evidently not in all your rifles, including many that should be capable of such accuracy with the right ammunition and at the velocities you shoot. And the ones that DON'T shoot that well, can you explain why?

When the weather cools down, I will do some shooting to find out if they are right or not. I will do this with my rifles and my cases. There is no way, I could test all of the possible combinations, but I can know if the Lyman M-Die or the RCBS expander makes any difference to accuracy in my life.

Which ever way this goes, won't cause anybody to change their minds. They have already determined what works best for them.

After all of this, how can you STILL not understand the reasons behind why one spud design is superior to the other?

It's unfortunate that once someone "determines what's best for them" the learning just stops. What's MORE unfortunate is that future generations are taught the same built-in limitations, and after a long while people look back to the "old masters" from the 1930s and '50s and think how much knowledge must have been lost, when anything that may have been lost is still theirs to re-discover in an era of better guns, better tools, better components, and the INTERNET for cryin' out loud.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

A straight line seater does not "force" the bullet into anything. It prevent the bullet from tiping and allow it to go in straight. You are correct that the case must be straight and concentric or straight line seating will do no good.

Straight is the name of the game for accuracy. The rifle chamber must be dead straight with the bore. The bolt face must be dead straight with the chamber to hold the cartridge straight. The care with its neck must be straight and concentric and the seating of the bullet must be done in such a way as to keep it straight with the case neck.

I think you are selling folks on this board way short, when you say we can't visualize what is needed and/or have not experimented with tools a sufficient amount to understand how they operate and the changes they make.

There are folks here decades deep into rifle craft, reloading and precision shooting. You are taking yourself way to seriously. You are an experienced fellow with lots of things to share, but you need to at least allow for the possibility that others know at least as much as you and perhaps more on some subjects.

Make your point, but dont denigrate the knowledge and experience of others in the process...please. I don't think at this stage of the discussion you are going to convince anyone that is not already convinced. It just seems to be the way of things on this board, that once folks converse and don't agree, one or more of the parties then start to denigrate or attack the other person for being inexperienced, can't visualize, stuck in the past or some such things.

Let's just agree to disagree and let it go at that. I think we will all be happier and sleep better if we do.

[45 2.1]

After all of this, how can you STILL not understand the reasons behind why one spud design is superior to the other?

It's unfortunate that once someone "determines what's best for them" the learning just stops.
Gear

It doesn't do any good to tell them anything Ian. They have already made up their minds.


I think you are selling folks on this board way short, when you say we can't visualize what is needed and/or have not experimented with tools a sufficient amount to understand how they operate and the changes they make.

There are folks here decades deep into rifle craft, reloading and precision shooting. You are taking yourself way to seriously. You are an experienced fellow with lots of things to share, but you need to at least allow for the possibility that others know at least as much as you and perhaps more on some subjects.

Make your point, but dont denigrate the knowledge and experience of others in the process...please. I don't think at this stage of the discussion you are going to convince anyone that is not already convinced. It just seems to be the way of things on this board, that once folks converse and don't agree, one or more of the parties then start to denigrate or attack the other person for being inexperienced, can't visualize, stuck in the past or some such things.

Let's just agree to disagree and let it go at that. I think we will all be happier and sleep better if we do.

Since you have me on ignore, perhaps some one will tell you this....... Ian already shoots a lot better groups than what you've reported. Not that that means anything here.

BTW, Felix made an excellent post. Its nice to see that some others understand the dynamics of pure accuracy.