Need Unique advice for 45 ACP 200 grain cast

[jh45gun]

Gun is a 1911 RIA Tactical 5 inch barrel. Bullet is the Lee 452- 200 grain RF nose Mold # 90234. OK any one use it here? Is the second groove a crimp groove or lube groove? Of course you would not use a crimp groove on the 45 ACP so what do you guys use for an over all length with this bullet. Of course the manuals show other bullets that are 200 grain and not this one.For the Unique numbers are all over with my manuals Lee says 5.1 grains of unique which is the only loading they suggest is 810 fps. Alliant website says 5.4 grains for 790. The Hornady book list a 200 grain SWC with 5.6 grains at 800 fps and 5.9 at 850 and a max 0f 6.2 at 900. The lyman goes from 5 grains at at 670 fps???????? to 7.5 for 980 fps. So what do you guys use for a 800 fps load using Unique? I do have some red dot I could use also. I loaded some up before and I do not remember the load but I was trying for 800 fps with my lyman info usin Unique. Recoil was not bad but the load would chamber in the High Point I had it will not chamber in my 45 1911 so I did some thing wrong with either seating the bullet wrong or crimping with the taper crimp it seems like the bullets were too fat for the 1911 maybe I put too much pressure on the crimp as these worked in the High Point but maybe that had a looser chamber. I gave those bullets to the friend I sold the High Point to so he can shoot them up instead of me pulling them. I am sizing the bullets with a Lyman lubrisizer and a a 452 sizer. Checked with my Caliper it is measuring .452 sized and the length of the bullet is .527 Any advice would be appreciated I cannot figure out what I did wrong with this bullet. I seated it right past the second lube groove before if it is a lube groove or it a crimp groove? Both are getting lube. I tried to post just a picture of the bullet but Lee must have it protected as read only. I could copy the whole picture but not just the single bullet.

[Dale53]

The bullet will work fine in most 1911's. Seat it so the base of the cartridge is flush with the barrel hood on a 1911:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/1911Headspace.png

Taper crimp to .470" (outside diameter at the mouth of the cartridge).

Dale53

[jh45gun]

I gave one of the loaded shells to a friend and he said it seemed too fat to chamber so I am thinking I might have put too much pressure on the crimp and swelled the bullet ahead of the case is this possible?

[MtGun44]

Proper LOA and taper crimping are mandatory for reliable .45 ACP ammunition.
Set LOA to keep full diam shoulder from hitting the rifling when the base is flush with the
hood of the dismounted barrel (as in the pix above). Push the round flush, or use
the assembled gun and drop the slide on the round, then eject and look for rifling
marks on the boolit.

Set the TC to about .471" or .473" diam at the case mouth, the loaded round should
drop in flush, or take 1 lb finger push at most. If not, add more TC.

Bill

[jh45gun]

Yea dies are lyman dies and are the newer carbide ones and are taper crimp .

[MtGun44]

I edited my post a bit, please re-read.

Bill

[brassrat]

Putting an excessive crimp on a case like a .45acp can let the round seat too deep because the ring in the chamber that controls headspace now is too large. The roundnose bullets, if 230gr. can even be jammed into the rifling, this can be very bad.

[jh45gun]

Brassrat In this case the round would not chamber completely. I had tried several rounds none of them would chamber. Like I said they would in the Hi Point so that must have had a more generous chamber. Once we get it figured out to chamber I still want to find out what you guys suggest for a load using Unique. Note factory ammo feeds and shoots just fine.

[Larry Gibson]

I've given up on using the Lee 45-200-RF in my M1911s as only 1 out of 3 will feed the cartridges regardless of OAL, sizing of bullet crimp style, etc ad mauseum. Went back to the Lee 45-190-SWC which works fine n all 3.

My standard practice/general purpose 45 ACP load is a 190 - 205 gr SWC over 5 gr Bullseye. Runs 850 - 900 fps depending on barrel and makes IPSC major w/o problem. Very accurate and deadly on small game.

Larry Gibson

[saz]

Try 4.0 grs of Red Dot. That is my "goto" load for any 200gr boolit thanks to another member here.

[jh45gun]

I've given up on using the Lee 45-200-RF in my M1911s as only 1 out of 3 will feed the cartridges regardless of OAL, sizing of bullet crimp style, etc ad mauseum. Went back to the Lee 45-190-SWC which works fine n all 3.

My standard practice/general purpose 45 ACP load is a 190 - 205 gr SWC over 5 gr Bullseye. Runs 850 - 900 fps depending on barrel and makes IPSC major w/o problem. Very accurate and deadly on small game.

Larry Gibson


Do you have any idea why? If they do not work well I will not bother lubing up the rest. Do they not feed or do not fit in the chamber?

[brassrat]

I am sorry for my stupid text. I meant to say that the overcrimped round might go in too deep because the case mouth is not stopping on the ring in the chamber. The problem that can occur is this can create a high pressure incident because the case mouth tries to expand while being held by the ring. This is good to know although I see that you are saying your round won't seat enough. What is greatly puzzling me is that I had the same thing happen and it was just a way overcrimped case but with a 230 gr RN bullet. My gun wouldn't go into battery, even pushing quite firmly. It didn't seem make sense but it was the overcrimp and you stated yours may have been overcrimped, also. Anyways, if your oal is short enough than bullet shape may be a factor.

[MtGun44]

Don't sweat overcrimping, it is essentially impossible, not quite, but nearly. Red herring,
not a real issue if you look at chamber dimensions. TC .471 or a bit bigger and you will
be fine. Never have seen an issue with over TCing, MANY, falure to close due to inadequate
TC.

Bill

[Artful]

For setting up my seating and crimping, I keep a factory loaded round to measure and use as a guide in screwing my dies down. Saves a lot of trial and error for set up.

[jh45gun]

For setting up my seating and crimping, I keep a factory loaded round to measure and use as a guide in screwing my dies down. Saves a lot of trial and error for set up.

Yea that works if your using a 230 grain bullet or have a factory round similar to what your casting. I am thinking to consider the OAL of a factory round and take in the fact that this bullet is like a round nose with the tip cut flat and figure it out accordingly.

[Artful]

I can usually find a factory round that's close to what I cast in nose shape.

Take a look at 200 grain Hollow point's offered I think you'll see what I mean.

[35remington]

I'd have to agree with Larry that the 200 RF is a "it can be made to work but is less than ideal" choice for a 1911.

It was never intended for the 45 ACP, and the big blunt point and short OAL means the feedramp strike occurs much later than a longer, more suitable round. This means the upward rise of the cartridge is steeper, and the early release magazines that facilitate this steepen the feed angle all on their own. This starts to compromise the function of the pistol. Short OAL's are not the 1911's cup of tea.

To some degree you're working against the pistol with this design. Not to say it can't work or won't work, as many do make it work. But, it is an uphill pull.

If your gun pukes even one round in 500 when at the range at your best, most reliable OAL for feeding, discard this one as a novelty and buy and use a design that caters to the 1911's preferences in overall length.

Not every square block will fit a round hole.

[jh45gun]

OK guess I will buy a new mold and give these to a friend to shoot in his pistol. I could shoot them in my Uberti 45 Colt but that shoots low as it is with 252 grain bullets. I figured out a sight picture for that load no sense in going with a lighter bullet with that load.

My friend might have a semi wad cutter mold.

[tacklebury]

6.5 gr. Unique and a 200 gr. RNFP is my std. load in my .45 acp guns. No issues at all and groups well.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-OxmJ-9A1S5M/TsRCp9O-WzI/AAAAAAAAARQ/mm3pMsrwOfs/s800/Dardas_200gr_RNFP_45ACP.jpg

[seagiant]

Hi,
Never ceases to amaze me why more reloaders don't use a Wilson or Forester case guage. If it fits the guage and you have a problem then its your pistol/rifle! Takes the guess work out!!!
t.

[jh45gun]

Well told my friend he could have them to shoot in his revolver. I gave him the mold as well as I will not have use for it. I will start over. Do the semi wad cutter bullets load and feed well?

[jh45gun]

I am thinking I may have had the dies set up so it was crimping before the bullet was completely seated which may have made the bullets fatter.

[seagiant]

Hi,
You should seat and crimp in two seperate operations! I will give my usual reccomendation to the H&G#68 or clone SWC. IMO the best lead bullet you can use in 45ACP!

[jh45gun]

Well maybe I will order Lee Factory Crimp die It would be too much of a PITA to seat then change the die to crimp.

[Artful]

Lyman 452460 or HG 68 are both good SWC for 45 ACP

[seagiant]

Well maybe I will order Lee Factory Crimp die It would be too much of a PITA to seat then change the die to crimp.

Hi,
No offense intended,but going to Wally World and buying a box of factory ammo would be even easier! The goal should be the best end product you can make! As a side note the last LEE factory crimp die I had,I GAVE it to a member here before I threw it in the dumpster!

[Plinkster]

I use the Lee 452-255-RF which I believe is just a longer version of that 200gr with the same nose profile. After I started seating and crimping in 2 operations the failure to return to battery rate went from 1 in 100 to 0 in 600 and counting. As you are finding out auto pistols like what they like. Mine for instance will not feed Lee's 452-200-SWC, it's too bad you gave the mold away already as I'd gladly swap my SWC for your RF. I am loading the 452-255-RF with an over all length of 1.13. I was advised by a trusted gentleman at my range to find the OAL that fit in the magazine and chamber of my 1911 and then using a chronograph work the powder charge up to the desired speed.

[jh45gun]

Yea too bad I it would have been a good trade but I will not go back on my word to my friend and I do not mind giving it to him as he does a lot of things for me also.

Seagiant, Sure buying factory ammo is easier but that is not the point I cast my own bullets for most of my shooting and while I do have some factory ammo for the 45acp I want to load for it also. this is the first cartridge I ever had problems with I have reloading. I load for the 30-06 the 30-30 The 6.5x55 and the 45/70. Pistols I load for the 38 special and the 45 Colt. I have loaded when I had a 308 barrel for my Encore the 308 and a 7.55 Swiss when I had a K31.

I think trying an other bullet and seating and crimping in two separate steps should solve the issue and I have Lee FCD's for most of my bullet choices except a couple and they work flawlessly.

[saz]

I am a fan of Lee products, but the FCD is a piece of....... Nothing you want related to cast boolits. Every one I have swages my boolits down and KILLS accuracy or creates some terrible leading. If you don't want to deal with resetting your seating die to crimp in a separate step, just buy another seating die for your 45ACP set and pull the seating plug out so you dont mix them up. I had to do that for my 500S&W and a long nose boolit I have for it. I couldn't back out the seating die enough to crimp the case because the nose was too long, so I bought another die. Problem solved. Works GREAT on my turret press too.

[jh45gun]

I don't have any problems with my rifle loads using the FCD but then they are designed different than the pistol ones .But I have not had any issues with my 45 Colt loads either no leading. Maybe their FCD is more for jacketed bullets? But like I said I have no issues with the 45 Colt but a then that is not a taper crimp either maybe it is the taper crimp ones that are an issue?

[35remington]

It's the carbide sizing ring that's the issue, and that comes in the FCD for both revolver and autoloading cartridges.

[garym1a2]

You can buy a lee crimp die that is not the factory crimp type. Its just an old style crimp die. It costs only about $10. Or just but an extra seating die and remove the guts and use it for crimping. I do this for 40S&W. For 45acp I use a 200gr SWC, seat and crimp at the same time. Works fine for me. It does not need much of a crimp if you don't over bell the case.

[Dale53]

For the record:
I have several Lee Factory Crimp Dies and LOVE them! I have had not one single problem with them.

I suspect that problems happen when someone needs or wants an oversized bullet in a particular application.

It's pretty much a "horses for courses" sort of thing.

I am currently involved with a reloading method suggested by C.E. (Ed) Harris using unsized Lee TL bullets and unsized cases relying on the Lee Factory Crimp die to profile the unsized bullet AND case while crimping it at the same time. From my limited trials it appears to be an excellent way to run my target loads in .32 H&R Magnum caliber at target velocities. Of course:lol:, I am using Recluse's 45-45-10 tumble lube method.

It also will save those just entering the cast bullet process to get by (without giving up accuracy) without purchasing a lube/sizer.

FWIW
Dale53

[wv109323]

The second groove is a crimping groove. That should then determine the OAL if the brass ends in the crimping groove.
A very slight roll crimp should work. A good way to determine how much crimp you have is to place two pieces of brass side to side touching each other. You should be able to see the amount of the roll ( or taper crimp) that has been applied to the brass.
As far as the amount of Unique I would stay around 5.1 to 5.3 grains. With that bullet around 775 to 825 fps should be enough recoil to operate the slide reliably.

[jh45gun]

The second groove is a crimping groove. That should then determine the OAL if the brass ends in the crimping groove.
A very slight roll crimp should work. A good way to determine how much crimp you have is to place two pieces of brass side to side touching each other. You should be able to see the amount of the roll ( or taper crimp) that has been applied to the brass.
As far as the amount of Unique I would stay around 5.1 to 5.3 grains. With that bullet around 775 to 825 fps should be enough recoil to operate the slide reliably.

Why would you say use a slight roll crimp when every one says taper crimp because the cartridge heads paces on the mouth of the cartridge? Well it is a moot point now anyway because I am going to an other bullet design and I will set the dies up to seat then crimp instead of all at once.

[mortre]

I'm using the TL452-230-TC to pretty good effect, it seems to get positive reviews here from others as well. No problems related to the bullet itself, although I have had issues as I am just learning casting. COAL of 1.20 and taper crimp at .470. I have been seating and crimping at the same time, but doing it in separate operations is on my to-try list. Along with not sizing and some more fiddling with the powder charge. The Lyman 4th Edition book lists this exact bullet with Unique, but that's not the powder I am using so I can't give you details off the top of my head. I will check it when I get home.

Lyman #4 Lee TL452-230-TC
COAL 1.170" Unique
5.2gr 802fps@13,700 CUP
5.7gr 874fps@17,600 CUP

[pmer]

This thread really helped with all usefull information. Really helped with my PT1911. It has a Wilson barrel in it and the shoulder of H&G 68s have to be flush with the case mouth.

Should this be a sticky or am I just this late to properly using cast in a 1911 [smilie=1: ? Or maybe it could be added to the 1911 sticky that is allready here?

[41 mag fan]

jh45gun......have you slugged your barrel? Reason I ask, is I have an RIA Compact, lots of issues, the biggest being it will not take a slug that is sized to .451. I've been doing some research, and found several other people on other forums with the same problems as I.

Try slugging your barrel, unless I skipped and didn't read where you did. You might find you have an excessively tight barrel as I'm finding out on mine

[David2011]

JH45GUN,

This may be the most basic of questions so forgive me if you've checked, but are you sure the chamber is completely free of carbon fouling? I have one 1911 that is used exclusively for very light loads and that's a problem that builds up slowly. My regular cleaning regimen of Powder Blast and Hoppe's #9 doesn't do much to remove the carbon. I ended up getting a liquid carbon cleaner.

My 200 gr SWCs looks pretty much identical to Seagiant's, judging by the amount of shoulder above the rim. I figure a little lead exposed there is a far better lubricant/bearing material that the sharp ridge of the case mouth hitting anything while feeding.

Definitely taper crimp. Glad you made that decision. My .45 ACP crimp is at .469 and works OK. There's nothing special about .469. I was adjusting the die, kept getting .003-.004 off and when some rounds came out at .469 I quit adjusting. It hasn't moved in years. There's still plenty of mouth to headspace against. Good luck chasing the problems!

David

[jh45gun]

41fan it is not the barrel it takes factory ammo just fine and I could tell after looking at the ammo I had loaded that it was fatter on the exposed lead and that would not chamber the cartridge all the way. I still think I bumped up the bullets while seating them and crimping them. Dave Chamber is fine and clean but good tip for in the future this gun has not had that many rounds through it yet a box of factory hardball is about it.

[nicholst55]

Well maybe I will order Lee Factory Crimp die It would be too much of a PITA to seat then change the die to crimp.

I'd recommend just ordering a separate taper crimp die; they're about the same price as the Lee FCD, and they won't swage your boolits down undersized.

[prs]

back to the top

[jh45gun]

I'd recommend just ordering a separate taper crimp die; they're about the same price as the Lee FCD, and they won't swage your boolits down undersized.

I have factory crimp dies in 30/30, 45,70, 6.5x55 Swede,45 Colt and never had an issue with them. Maybe the 45 acp is different but I sure never had an issue with the rest of them. But then the rifle ones are collet type maybe that makes a difference but with my 45 colt the die I have works fine but that does not take a taper crimp either.

[Moonie]

jh45gun......have you slugged your barrel? Reason I ask, is I have an RIA Compact, lots of issues, the biggest being it will not take a slug that is sized to .451. I've been doing some research, and found several other people on other forums with the same problems as I.

Try slugging your barrel, unless I skipped and didn't read where you did. You might find you have an excessively tight barrel as I'm finding out on mine

I have this exact gun, a RIA compact 1911 45acp, it feeds my Lee 200gr SWC's sized to .452 just fine as long as the case doesn't get bulged. I did find that some brass (PMC notably) had issues due to the thickness of the brass causing a bulge where the boolit base was.

[jh45gun]

I really do think I swaged the bullet as it started to crimp before the bullet was completely seated. That is my guess anyway. I am going to get a 230 grain mould since I shoot 230 grain factory stuff. I also am going to make the crimping a separate step.

[MtGun44]

Crimping with a separate TC die is a requirement for reliable .45 ACP ammo.

Bill

[WilliamDahl]

I tend to like to crimp in a separate step from seating the bullet. I find that it takes me less time (and bad rounds that I need to pull the bullet and recycle). I figured that the reason that I did it in 2 stages was that I just wasn't as good of a reloader as some of the folks out there. It's nice to hear that some other people separate the seating and crimping into 2 stages. I'm just glad I had an empty stage in my press to give it a try. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die in the 4th stage.

[brassrat]

I never crimp as a final step and the gun will shoot pretty well. This is 50' off a bag with a 200 gr. SWC. Totally reliable and I am now carrying a harder, similar, bullet.


http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l542/g5uis23ft5h/0034.jpg

[jh45gun]

So how do you seat the bullet are you opening up the case with M die or a Lee universal neck expanding die to make seating a cast bullet easier? I find after opening the case I need to crimp to get the bell out of the case.

[35remington]

It's always advisable to crimp to remove any bell present. If your case mouth is larger than about .472" to .473" after the bullet is inserted, you're flirting with malfunctions, especially in a dirtyish or tight chamber, if a taper crimp isn't used.

For some reason, "tight" chambers are faddish in some 1911's which is nonsensical given that nearly all 1911's cannot take any accuracy advantage from it. The tightness of the chamber is not the limiting factor in accuracy given a gun that has a barrel that moves every shot. Still, there is no sound reason not to taper crimp a flared case mouth that approaches or exceeds the SAAMI spec for case mouth diameter.

There is every reason to taper crimp......it is a reliability aid first and foremost that ensures the functionality of your ammo. Function (and safety of the load) is the most critical step in handloading for a firearm.

[jh45gun]

I agree I was just wondering what he was doing if he never crimps.

[35remington]

I'm curious as to the actual measured diameter of 'rat's case mouths and how close to the edge of functionality he's pushing it.

[brassrat]

I meant to say that I don't use two steps. I use a Lee seating die that crimps when seating. IMO, the process starts with barely belling when flaring the case which then only needs a tiny taper crimp. It seems to be best to end up with a .470 crimp, most of the time.

[jh45gun]

Well I had a couple of Lee dies a duplicate new FCD for 45/70 I had one already I did not realize that I had one when I ordered the other and a sizer die for a 8mm that I do not own any 8mm anymore so I traded them in for a new Lee 45 acp Taper Crimp Die. Only a difference in price is a dollar between the taper crimp die and the FCD I traded in and I threw in the sizer die to sweeten the pot.

[Pb2au]

+1 on the .470 crimp. I have found that to be the butter zone, at least in my universe.
I just finished running up my load for Lee's 90351 mold. 6grains of Unique, and away we go. Feeds perfect, very nice accuracy.

[pmer]

Before I learned how to properly load for the 1911 by reading this thread I ran some HG68s that too were long. The pistol couldn't even get through a full magazine towards the end.

What I found during cleaning were lead deposits in the chamber where the case mouth needs to rest for firing. I used tooth picks to clean that out. Now it feeds and ejects great with much better ammo.

[double00]

I had similar problem with my new remington R1 not feeding my reloads. My colt and high point would cycle without problems but not the remington. After reading this post, i checked my crimp and it was .473 and would not go into barrel flush. Crimped them so they would go into barrel like picture on one of the first post, which ended up being .471 and now they cycle through with out any problems. I did not load many until i could see if they would work.

[bigboredad]

I have read a lot of different people say the .45acp doesn't need a crimp and if you have to be careful not to over crimp. Well I'm one of those people that need to do it just to see for my self and what I have found in my guns has been that you can put a monster taper crimp and it works just fine I wouldn't ever recommend it I 'm just saying I tried and it worked just fine. I have also found that no crimp or just staighten out the flare has caused more problems then a monster crimp ever did. I also have found the Lee factory crimp die did not swage my bullets down and I have used them in .40,.357,.45acp, and .45 colt but I also water drop my .45acp bullets so maybe that's why they don't swage down. and I have also found that a crimp of .469-.471 has been the best performing rounds. This long post was basically to say until you try it you will never know for certain if something works or doesn't. FOR ME I love the fcd it doesn't cost a arm and leg and is easily set up and easy to adjust so just try different ways and find what meets you criteria for a good round

[Dale53]

bigboredad;
+1 to all of the above...

Dale53

[Tar Heel]

After an internet search on “why my bullets won’t fit”, I found this thread on my favorite forum! Allow me to contribute if possible and seek an answer too.

I have loaded THOUSANDS of rounds of 45 ACP ammunition over 30 years. I primarily load the H&G #68 200gr SWC over 5 or 6 grains of 231 on the Dillon 550B press with Dillon dies. Badda-bing badda-boom....500 rounds very easy. I have also loaded jacketed bullets using the RCBS Single-Stage press with both RCBS and Lee dies. No problems. I use a proper taper crimp by the way.

I have, until last month, always used commercially produced cast bullets purchased from one of the large internet suppliers like MidwayUSA. All of the various bullets purchased (200gr H&G#68 Clones) have all worked splendidly in the Dillon and RCBS presses. All loaded ammunition chambered great but there was always the acceptable one or two rounds that for whatever reason....are rejected.

Last month after deducing that a $20 Lee bullet mold would be less expensive than an $80/box of lead bullets that I could cast myself, I purchased a Lee 452-228-1R bullet mold and cast off a couple of hundred bullets. I am an experienced caster and cast many types of bullets for a large spectrum of calibers. Casting is not a new endeavor for me but I am always open to ideas and suggestions.

I sized and lubed the bullets, sizing to .452 inches. I loaded 30 rounds on the RCBS single-stage press to test the waters and verify C.O.A.L. and chambering ease. Note that I also used range brass and learned that some mfgs now use small primers! See....always learning.....

Only 10 rounds would chamber in the Dillon go-no-go gauge. The other 20 stuck out of the gauge with half to 1/3 of the case protruding. Something was amiss. I seated the bullet a tad deeper to a C.O.A.L. of 1.220” and a few more would chamber. I assumed this was going to be a C.O.A.L. issue.

After playing with the C.O.A.L. for another 50 rounds, I was still experiencing a 30% rejection rate on the rounds tumbling out of the Dillon loaded. I decided to try the RCBS single-stage press with Lee dies to change two variables. After setting up the dies on the RCBS press, I ran off another 20 rounds of very carefully loaded ammunition. AGAIN there was a 30% rejection rate whereby the rounds would not chamber. I was getting very confused. Note that in this loading run, I segregated the cases by manufacturer. The reject rate was experienced across all the cases.

Upon very careful examination of the loaded cartridges, I detected a very slight, non-concentric “bulge” on the cases at or near the base of the loaded Lee bullet. This bulge is almost imperceptible on most of the rejected cases but the ones on which it was easier to detect would clearly not chamber in the go-no-go gauge and the cartridges stuck out of it for half their length.

I resolved to size another batch of cast bullets to .451 in an attempt to remove this “seating bulge” from the cases. I had also read that the 45 ACP family of pistols functioned better with bullets sized to .451 instead of .452 inches. This was certainly worth a try but I have learned that sizing to .451 did not correct the rejection rate and I am still experiencing a 30% fail rate using this bullet.

I am at a loss to explain this high (30%) failure rate except to note that it may be one of the two following conditions.

1. Cases must be trimmed to uniform size when loading this particular bullet. Note that I have NEVER trimmed scrounged 45 ACP brass and have been scrounging, loading, and shooting it since 1983.
2. The Lee bullet just causes problems and should be abandoned.

I doubt that there is a concentricity issue. Even if so, the sizing should have corrected that. Perhaps the PB design “pushes” the case into a bulge?

Any insight or suggestion would be welcome. I would really like to produce these bullets to keep my costs down.

[Dale53]

Tar Heel;
I wish we lived closer. I'll bet I could solve your problem within minutes.

That said, I taper crimp to .470" at the mouth of the case. I presume you seat with one die and crimp separately with another die?

I don't trim my .45 ACP brass. I'm not sure I ever found a .45 ACP case that reached minimum length.

I have a couple of 550B Dillons but I use the Lee Factory Crimp die on the final stage. I DO seat with one die and crimp with a separate die.

Check the mouth of the case of a loaded round that won't chamber. I suspect you'll find the answer there. If you crimp too much you can cause the case to bulge behind the crimp (it would not be common but can happen). Generally the cause of the problem you are experiencing is trying to seat and crimp in the same die at the same time. However, since you have Dillon dies I doubt that is the problem. On the other hand, if you have the seating die set wrong it could be crimping as the bullet is seated. Check that out...

FWIW
Dale53

[Tar Heel]

Dale53,

You bet I do seat and crimp separately. That was one of my most important lessons both for tapered and straight-wall cases.

If I were to guess.....I would guess that either the PB bullet is pushing OR the bullet is not seating aligned with the axis of the case. Sounds positively mystic and I will continue to play with this.

I had originally thought of case trimming since slightly longer cases can play havoc with a taper crimp, rendering a roll-crimp if too long.

I found another thread on here specifically about the 452-228-1R bullet. I'll digest that info after work today. Thanks......

[Dale53]

I just had a thought. You had no problem with the #68 SWC (which is a flat nose and my favorite bullet for the .45 ACP/Auto Rim by the way). However, you ARE having problems with a round nose bullet. Ask yourself this question. Is the seating punch flat? It's possible your seating stem nose is tilting the bullet when seating causing the problem. It just may be an incapatible seating stem and bullet. Some die manufacturers send two different seating stems for different bullets (one for flat nosed and one for round nose).

Just a thought...

Dale53

[Tar Heel]

Dale53,

Problem resolved. I had already rotated the seating plug for the RN -vs- the TC and even cleaned it before so that was not the issue. I thought about this issue all day and realized that I could use the Dillon go-no-go gauge as my primary indicator since it is sized for a .452 bullet. No need to use a barrel for the fitting.

I decided I would start fresh and completely disassemble the Lee & RCBS loading dies I use on the RCBS single stage press. Upon cleaning them I noticed what I thought was a bright ring in the crimp die. I ran a bore brush up there and removed a ring of lead which could not be seen with the naked eye - at least my >50 naked eye. I reassembled the dies and started setting them up.

To cut to the chase....CRIMP CRIMP CRIMP CRIMP CRIMP as you surmised. When I finally used a micrometer on the case mouth it became evident what the problem was. I could not feel the "kick back" when crimping with the Dillon like you can with a single-stage press and the lead accumulation in the dies was aggravating the issue by clogging up the crimp ring in the die.

Thanks to everyone for this and other posts which got my thought processes flowing. To those who are experiencing similar issues, and there a lot of you based on all the similar posts regarding the Lee 452-228-1R bullet, I suggest CLEAN YOUR DIES first, recalibrate all the die depths and, of course, tailor the seating depth of this bullet to your chamber. I have found independently that 1.220 works in Colts and Colt clones. Readers who search the site will also discover dozens of posts suggesting a C.O.A.L of 1.220 as well.

So....when befuddled, stop, clean, recalibrate, evaluate. If that doesn't resolve the problem, follow the advice of Dale53, "Check the mouth of the case of a loaded round that won't chamber. I suspect you'll find the answer there." which was spot on.

[Dale53]

Tar Heel;
Glad you have the problem resolved. Some times things can get frustrating. Generally, tho' a little thought and careful examination and BINGO! SUCCESS!

Dale53

[Tar Heel]

You had no problem with the #68 SWC (which is a flat nose and my favorite bullet for the .45 ACP/Auto Rim by the way).

The #68 ROCKS. Why I bought a 230 RN is beyond me but I guess I figured it would be easier to cast. Who knows.

[jonp]

I am having major problems getting cast boolits to feed in my Kahr CW45. The cases/overall length are within specs and I'm using a loaded factory round as a guide. The FTF is that the boolit is coming out of the magazine and riding up over the feed ramp and into the top of the mouth. I've tried various seating depths, powders, primers, bullet weights, etc but no luck. This is happening with anything other than round nose such as RNFP and SWC. The rounds also will stop as rim high from fully seating. I'm stumped.

[just10mm]

Great thread... I will be running the #68 clone (lee) mold in my 1911. I have a Lee 4 turret press and deluxe 4 die set. Now to be clear it seems I need to ditch the Lee factory crimp die in my fourth station, use the seating die for just that, seating (not turning the die in to crimp) then use the Lee tapper crimp die to achieve the .470 tapper crimp as the last step? I want to make sure I have it right before I load up my first cast boolits... I have used the LFC die when loading for my .44 spec with no issues but see the wisdom in doing it the above way for 45 acp...

[scattershot]

I am having major problems getting cast boolits to feed in my Kahr CW45. The cases/overall length are within specs and I'm using a loaded factory round as a guide. The FTF is that the boolit is coming out of the magazine and riding up over the feed ramp and into the top of the mouth. I've tried various seating depths, powders, primers, bullet weights, etc but no luck. This is happening with anything other than round nose such as RNFP and SWC. The rounds also will stop as rim high from fully seating. I'm stumped.

I have a CW45, with the same problems you describe. I have come to the conclusion that this particular pistol is junk, and not up to the same standards as other Kahr pistols. Mine is back at the factory now, for repair. The conclusions I came to was the failure to feed was caused by the extractor not getting a firm grip on the extracting case, and allowing it to slide down and jam on the next round in the mag. The failure to seat completely is becuse of the inadequate (or in my case nonexistant) leade in the rifling, causing most bullet styles to jam into the rifling before seating completely. Hope this helps, and that you get your Kahr percolating like it should, but it may require a trip to the factory.

[jonp]

I have a CW45, with the same problems you describe. I have come to the conclusion that this particular pistol is junk, and not up to the same standards as other Kahr pistols. Mine is back at the factory now, for repair. The conclusions I came to was the failure to feed was caused by the extractor not getting a firm grip on the extracting case, and allowing it to slide down and jam on the next round in the mag. The failure to seat completely is becuse of the inadequate (or in my case nonexistant) leade in the rifling, causing most bullet styles to jam into the rifling before seating completely. Hope this helps, and that you get your Kahr percolating like it should, but it may require a trip to the factory.

Thanks for the info. I have 2 of them. One for me and one for the missus. We have a deal, I buy a gun and I have to buy her one just like it. Gotten kinda expensive but thats ok :roll: Our kahr k9's work fine but these are something. I was beginning to tear my hair out trying to get stuff to run in them. the only cast I can seem to get to run is RN and only if I go full house with them. No target loading charges seem to run it. I do notice that everyone is saying to size to .470 on the mouth but with .472 cast I don't see how to do that unless I use a softer cast than the BN10 I've got. I'm about to trade both of these pistols in as finicky pistols hold no love in my heart.

[scattershot]

i hear ya. Warning bells should have sounded when I found out that Kahr recommends a 200 round break in period. I have never owned a pistol that wasn't reliable right out of the box, and this one was a real eye opener. It won't even chamber GI ball ammo.

[makicjf]

I have tried to use the lee 200 rnfp in my 1911's, and have had inconsistent results. Failure to go into battery is the biggest problem. In order to get it to"plunk" to the hood I have to seat to 1.50. I think the nose radius is to blunt and it is .452 to far forward. I am going to shoot the rest up and not load them anymore. I ordered the Lee 200 swc tl. I am hoping it cycles better. I use them for Wild Bunch loads, and failure to go into full battery won"t get me killed, but it costs time

[Dale53]

makicjf;
See post #2.

Dale53

[jonp]

I don't mind a break-in period as several manufacters recommend anywhere from 200-400 rounds of fmj. I'm going to run some more fmj through it first but after re-reading a post above by Tarheel (Thank you very much!) I went DOH! and looked at my die and sure enough had a ring of lead at the crimp. I took it apart and cleaned it, put it back and shortened the oal to 1.22 and presto! RN now feed. Still no luck with swc but I can live with that I guess.

[makicjf]

Dale 53,
That makes perfect sense. I use the FC, but may be crimping to tight. Most work, but a few stop at "half battery"... I may be hanging up.
Thanks!
Jason

[GUINEAPIG WITH AK47]

Let's bump this back up!

I'm loading for a friend's CW45, the Lee 200 RF. Experimentation/evaluation/modification has shown me a few things:

I'm an experienced reloader/handloader with 30 yrs in, first, .38/.357, .45, 9mm, .40, and .45-70 (buffalo classic). Started casting 4 yrs ago, love this!

CW45 notes:
1. Tight and rough chamber/ramp! First batch of fired brass had serious scratches longitudinally (lengthwise).
2. Polished ramp/chamber mouth with flitz.
3. Jam when dirty, almost straight into battery, or wouldn't fire when appearing to be in battery, (.010 out), difficult to rack slide to clear. Obviously OAL too long, bullet engaging rifling or excess lube/lead at case mouth. Examination under magnification shows leade uneven between lands (some angles sections short, some long). Flared more, cleaned each loaded round so 50-50 was NOT on the front of the case. Going to 2500 for lube. Sized to .452 in Lyman 450.
4. Serious rings in chamber laterally (reamer with nicks). First tried smoothing with flitz on a sized case spun with drill, no joy, went to unsized case with coarser red compound from dremel by hand. Removed primer with small punch, coated case (NOT near mouth, don't want to round out where it head spaces!) and ran the case in/out instead of around.
5. Going to Berry's plated 200 gr TC instead of straight cast, although testing today shows 1.5"@15 yrds both with FMJ WWB as well as TC and cast. Same groups, 5 gr 231. Loaded short to plunk @1.130 to clear short leade. 4.5 gr 231 and 4.1 gr 231 show backflush of carbon on cases due to low pressure.

6. Function with Berry's is 100& over 50 rnds with various loads, 4.1 wouldn't cycle.

Any comments or suggestion?

Kyle

[paul h]

I didn't appreciate the differences in loading for auto handguns at first, but after some fits and starts have settled on a pretty simple and affective setup for the 45 acp.

Lee TL452-200-SWC in a 6 cavity mold. Cast up a pile, tl and let dry.

http://www.midway.no/WebRoot/MediaDefinition/productimages/880x660/primary/232/232646_l.jpg

Load over 5gr of Bullseye or 6gr of Unique. Adjust seating depth per the diagram shown on the first page.

Load, shoot, pick up empties, repeat.

You can spend more on molds, fiddle a whole bunch et al, but I doubt your results will be much better for the added efforts.

[MtGun44]

I will repeat a comment that I have posted many times.

In .45 ACP, after assisting newbies loading for IPSC for 30+ years, about 85% of the difficulties were

INADEQUATE OR NON-EXISTENT TAPER CRIMP.

Bill