Why are my primers backing out?

[PAT303]

I fired my 586 S&W 357 today,I put 12 reloads through it to see how it shoots,the load was 38 special cases with 4grns of pistol powder under a 148grn wad cutter and the gun locked up,I've only just bought it and all six primers had backed out of the cases until the gun locked.I fired two cases without powder and the primers backed out half thier length,whats wrong with this thing?. Pat

[jwp475]

Not enough chamber pressure to "push" the case tight against the frame of the revolver. That is what keeps primers from backing out

[44man]

JWP has the answer. Too light of a load.

[45 2.1]

Not enough chamber pressure to "push" the case tight against the frame of the revolver. That is what keeps primers from backing out


JWP has the answer. Too light of a load.

You two need to read what he wrote........ 38 special case, 4 gr. pistol powder, 148 gr. WC................ go look at your reloading manuals and learn something.

As for the original question, you have an overload in 38 special brass (which is quite variable as to strength). Rethink that powder charge............. the brass is seizing in the cylinder and letting the primers back out.

[44man]

We did, WHAT pistol powder? Was it 4 gr of Unique? Maybe 2400?
Still not enough pressure to set the case head to the recoil plate.

[jwp475]

You two need to read what he wrote........ 38 special case, 4 gr. pistol powder, 148 gr. WC................ go look at your reloading manuals and learn something.

As for the original question, you have an overload in 38 special brass (which is quite variable as to strength). Rethink that powder charge............. the brass is seizing in the cylinder and letting the primers back out.



There are more variables than just looking in a reloading manual. The fact that the primers are backing out indicate too light of a load.

25 grains of 296 behind a 325 grain LFN is 1325 to 1350 FPS from most 6" barreled 45 Colts, but I have seen only 1240 FPS from 1, which means that it did not pressure up the same due to cylinder throat and barrel cylinder gap tolerances

[45 2.1]

Would the thread starter say what he used in terms of powder?
BTW about 4.2 gr Unique is listed as a max load for a 38 WC load.......hardly a light load and 2400 (which is designated as a smokeless rifle powder by the manufacturer) starting loads are above 8 gr. The primers backing out of all loads do indicate something strange is occuring. Two backed out without powder... did they have boolits in them? Is he useing worn out cases? Why don't we find out.

[44man]

True, we need to know the powder. Yet indications are too light.
It is like shooting rubber bullets with just a primer.

[Salmoneye]

Not enough chamber pressure to "push" the case tight against the frame of the revolver. That is what keeps primers from backing out

That's the ticket...

But what really happens is that it reseats the primer...

First thing that happens when you fire a round is that the primer backs out...The pressure of the burning propellant then rises pushing the case rearward and thus reseating the primer...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=359553

[Salmoneye]

True, we need to know the powder. Yet indications are too light.
It is like shooting rubber bullets with just a primer.

I took "pistol powder", to mean "Power Pistol"...

In which case, 4gr is a very low load for that bullet...

[**oneshot**]

Primer only cases will back the primer out, sometimes sticking on the firing pin. I learned this one all by myself, lol.
Every time you fire the primer will start to back out, as the pressure of the powder burn builds and the bullet is pushed forward the case is driven backwards and pushes the primer back into place. If the pressure is too high the case will grab firm in the cylinder and delay the case moving backwards, this causes a flattened primer.
Hope this helps.

[44man]

I took "pistol powder", to mean "Power Pistol"...

In which case, 4gr is a very low load for that bullet...
You had it right with your other post and this one too.
We have no information to make a conclusion.

[Maven]

"Two backed out without powder... did they have boolits in them? Is he using worn out cases? Why don't we find out." 45 2.1

Pat303, 45 2.1, I had a trigger job done on my new Ruger SBH. When my gunsmith returned the gun to me he said, the new lighter [Wolf] springs MAY be too light and not ignite the primers (Win. LP). When I got home, I primed 6 new, trimmed pcs. of Starline .44mag. brass, i.e., primers only, no powder or bullet. Upon firing, I couldn't easily rotate the cylinder by cocking the hammer because all 6 primers had backed out enough to bind the cylinder. (All 6 fired, btw.)

There could be many factors at work here: too hot a load, old brass with enlarged primer pockets, primers which were a tad small, enlarged flash holes, etc. As 45 2.1 suggested, we need more information.

Btw, it is also possible that the internal dimension of the brass is smaller than typical and the 148gr. WC is of a greater diameter than usual. Don't dismiss this out of hand as brass dimensions, e.g., internal diameter and rim diameter, vary quite widely by manufacturer, as do commercial WC's.

[bearcove]

You two need to read what he wrote........ 38 special case, 4 gr. pistol powder, 148 gr. WC................ go look at your reloading manuals and learn something.

As for the original question, you have an overload in 38 special brass (which is quite variable as to strength). Rethink that powder charge............. the brass is seizing in the cylinder and letting the primers back out.

I think "you" need more info before you can make any conclusions.

Primer backing out is almost always too light a load. Not a overload.

Maybe you should look in a reloading manual and study pressure indications.:mrgreen:

[45 2.1]

I think "you" need more info before you can make any conclusions. I believe i've already said that, along with a couple of others afterward.

Primer backing out is almost always too light a load. Not a overload. We shall see when the original poster responds, won't we. Almost always don't count for beans in some situations.

Maybe you should look in a reloading manual and study pressure indications. Lets see, 38 special case with a 148 gr. WC.... we don't know if its conventionally loaded or not, do we. If its loaded normally, it doesn't have a lot of powder space left. Remember this is the caliber where many people "SAY" they blew up there guns with 2.7 gr. of Bullseye.... whether true or not I don't know. The man says he loaded 4 gr. of pistol powder. Whole lots of choices for pistol powder in a lot of manuals, but if you look at the data. 4 gr. is over book max for a whole lot of them that are listed in Lymans manual, at right near the top for others. Does that seem like a recipe for a light load? Basically would you recommend that he increase his charge without knowing what he used, just from what you think happened? Sooo, lets wait and see what he actually did, then you can try to beat on me more. :mrgreen:

[bearcove]

I'm not the know it all! I was just laughing at your response to 2 correct answers.

Must be that wall of knowledge thing.[smilie=l:

[45 2.1]

I'm not the know it all! I was just laughing at your response to 2 correct answers.

Must be that wall of knowledge thing.[smilie=l:

I don't respond to correct answers except with a +1. That may be their wall of knowledge thing instead. Why would anyone tell someone else they had a light load without more to go on? He may be shooting hollow base wadcutters..... do you know what happens with them versus a flat or bevel base wadcutter? Suppose he believes them with those answers they gave and increases the charge........... Ya'll chew on that for a bit.

[bearcove]

Not enough chamber pressure to "push" the case tight against the frame of the revolver. That is what keeps primers from backing out

No load recomendations there, nor elsewhere. Just a explanation of what it indicates.

[jwp475]

No load recomendations there, nor elsewhere. Just a explanation of what it indicates.



Exactly............

[PAT303]

Sorry everyone,I should have given more info.The load used once fired .38+P cases with 4grns of AP70n,unique burning rate with 148 WC,max load is listed as 5.1grns.I fired two reloads of 357 mag ammo another shooter was shooting rams with and both reloads had pierced primers,somethings very wrong.The pistol is an early 586 with the firing pin on the hammer,not seperate like later models,sorry I'm a riflemen not pistol shooter,the cylinder has no movement on it's axis or by rotating,the gun itself is very tight and even though it locked up I had no issue hitting nine chooks at 25mtrs with 10 shots so it shoots very well.Like 45.1 said shooting primed cases without powder the primers backed nearly completely out of the case. Pat

[PAT303]

I don't respond to correct answers except with a +1. That may be their wall of knowledge thing instead. Why would anyone tell someone else they had a light load without more to go on? He may be shooting hollow base wadcutters..... do you know what happens with them versus a flat or bevel base wadcutter? Suppose he believes them with those answers they gave and increases the charge........... Ya'll chew on that for a bit.

Yes,hollow base wadcutters. Pat

[runfiverun]

check the bushing that the firing pin goes through.

[45 2.1]

Sorry everyone,I should have given more info.The load used once fired .38+P cases with 4grns of AP70n,unique burning rate with 148 WC,max load is listed as 5.1grns.I fired two reloads of 357 mag ammo another shooter was shooting rams with and both reloads had pierced primers,somethings very wrong.The pistol is an early 586 with the firing pin on the hammer,not seperate like later models,sorry I'm a riflemen not pistol shooter,the cylinder has no movement on it's axis or by rotating,the gun itself is very tight and even though it locked up I had no issue hitting nine chooks at 25mtrs with 10 shots so it shoots very well.Like 45.1 said shooting primed cases without powder the primers backed nearly completely out of the case. Pat


Yes,hollow base wadcutters. Pat

You seem to have gun problems. A long firing pin or enlarged firing pin hole could be causing problems there. Use of hollow base wadcutters usually involves the lower half of the data used for solid base wadcutters due to the soft swaged skirt of the wadcutter. An old Speer manual indicates to not go over about 800 fps or you'll could damage the HB skirt. This very well could increase cartridge pressure above that level due to the skirt being forced outward and causing the case walls to grip the cylinder tighter. Check and see if your data is for solid or hollow based loads.

[ColColt]

I've never heard of primers backing out due to a light load. What of the few grains of Bullseye with a wadcutter? You don't get any lighter than that and tens of thousands have shot that load. I've shot wax bullets powered by only the primer and the pistol didn't lock up(Ruger 45 Colt). Sounds to me like something else is haywire.

[shotman]

Well I missed something.
If a primer can back out on a smith then there is something wrong. I have several and 2 was sent back. there should not be room for a primer to back out .
I can get a dollar bill in but it drags
I have shot MANY very light loads some wouldn't make it 25 ft NO primer back out

[subsonic]

Light loads can make a primer back out.

586/686 had a recall on some models for a problem with the bushing around the firing pin hole backing out. I had one of the guns that was in the recall range, but it shot fine and I never sent it in. It definitely could be this.

[9.3X62AL]

Early-series S&W 586 revolvers had an issue with excessive primer cratering; my first one had this trait. The primer make can influence the occurrence, as can powder choice or load intensity. 38 Special loads using Fed 100 primers would unfailingly tie up the revo, as would most Magnum loads. Winchester or CCI Small Pistol Magnum primers firing WW-296 powder at full-strength could run all day, though. Strange as h--l.

It was diagnosed by the factory as "too-large firing pin recess", and was a warrantee repair made by S&W to these revos. I saw at least a dozen such occurrences while rangemastering in the early-to-mid-1980s. The 586-1 and 686-1 and succeeding variants didn't have this quirk.

Any capable S&W armorer can replace the recoil shield and resolve the issue.

[subsonic]

Early-series S&W 586 revolvers had an issue with excessive primer cratering; my first one had this trait. The primer make can influence the occurrence, as can powder choice or load intensity. 38 Special loads using Fed 100 primers would unfailingly tie up the revo, as would most Magnum loads. Winchester or CCI Small Pistol Magnum primers firing WW-296 powder at full-strength could run all day, though. Strange as h--l.

It was diagnosed by the factory as "too-large firing pin recess", and was a warrantee repair made by S&W to these revos. I saw at least a dozen such occurrences while rangemastering in the early-to-mid-1980s. The 586-1 and 686-1 and succeeding variants didn't have this quirk.

Any capable S&W armorer can replace the recoil shield and resolve the issue.

That sounds more like it. It has been a while.... there definitely was a problem relating to this.

[PAT303]

Bugger,did S&W stamp the revolvers that were repaired or can I trace it's number?.It sounds like thats the issue,the load I used is our standard load for our Taurus club revolvers,they have fired thousands of them. Pat

[44man]

I shot a lot of rubber boolits in the basement with just primers. .45 Colt. The Ruger cylinder would lock from primer back out. I drilled the flash holes FOR RUBBER BOOLITS ONLY, problem went away.

[Thin Man]

PAT303,

Early S&W L-frame revolvers were factory-fitted with the large diameter fire pin (hammer nose) and fire pin bushing as was commonly used on the larger caliber revolvers. Suddenly the factory was overcome with complaints exactly like your experience - primers backing out and sometimes entering the hole in the fire pin bushing, thereby locking up the cylinder from rotation. Look at the recoil shield and find the fire pin hole, then note the small circle around it. That entire circle area is a plug (bushing) which is driven and staked in the recoil shield from front to rear.

S&W made the change in production to the small diameter fire pin (and corresponding bushing with small diameter hole) and the problem went away. Still they had to correct all the large fire pin revolvers in circulation. The factory identified willing gunsmith and armorers to make field conversaions, sent out tool and parts kits, and got the job completed faster. Yes, these converted firearms were marked to indicate that the correction had been completed, but that has been so long ago I can't remember how these were marked. A quick call to S&W customer service should get you the answer to this question.

All the above applies if your revolver is an early production model with the large fire pin and bushing. Two other explanations could be present:

(1) An early revolver with large fire pin and bushing, where someone installed the correct (small) fire pin on the hammer but failed to install the matching (small) bushing. Evidence of this would be frequent primer cratering with primers flowing into the bushing hole, locking the cylinder from any rotation usually in 1-2 rounds of magnum level ammunition. This does not sound like your experience.

(2) Bushing set-back, where the bushing has moved too deep (or was installed too deep) into the recoil shield and allows the primer to exit the case when the round is fired, and the case does not reset the primer in the pocket under recoil of the case. This example calls for the bushing to be removed and replaced with a new bushing. If your bushing is completely flush with the recoil shield, no problem. If you can see or feel that the bushing is below the face of the recoil shield, there is your problem. This is a fairly rare event, but we see this occasionally (can be in any revolver model).

If you can locate a shop that still has the parts and tools to accomplish this L-frame fire pin conversion, let them inspect for your revolver having either the large or small fire pin and bushing, also bushing for correct placement in the recoil shield. Otherwise, S&W has been very cooperative in correcting their products lately. A quick call to them and repair inquiry (when asking about "markings" for converted revolvers) should get a favorable response. They will need your firearm's serial number for reference toward manufacture date and ID of fire pin and bushing at original manufacture. You can reach them at 1-800-331-0852.

Good luck.

Thin Man

[jwp475]

Early-series S&W 586 revolvers had an issue with excessive primer cratering; my first one had this trait. The primer make can influence the occurrence, as can powder choice or load intensity. 38 Special loads using Fed 100 primers would unfailingly tie up the revo, as would most Magnum loads. Winchester or CCI Small Pistol Magnum primers firing WW-296 powder at full-strength could run all day, though. Strange as h--l.

It was diagnosed by the factory as "too-large firing pin recess", and was a warrantee repair made by S&W to these revos. I saw at least a dozen such occurrences while rangemastering in the early-to-mid-1980s. The 586-1 and 686-1 and succeeding variants didn't have this quirk.

Any capable S&W armorer can replace the recoil shield and resolve the issue.



This condition causes primer extrusion which can tie up the revolver.

Primers backing out of the case is caused by the case not being pushed tight against the recoil shield caused by not enough pressure

[9.3X62AL]

This condition causes primer extrusion which can tie up the revolver.

Primers backing out of the case is caused by the case not being pushed tight against the recoil shield caused by not enough pressure

This is the only condition I was addressing. My own and none of the other deputies' early-series L-frame showed primers backing out of cases, so I'm not in a position to comment with experience on that occurrence. My only experience with primers backing out as you describe occurred with the plastic CCI practice/indoor cases and bullets. They very reliably backed primers out and tied up the works quite nicely.

[jwp475]

+1.....

[BLTsandwedge]

This week I'll send a new S&W 610 back for excessive primer protrusion from 7.8g Power Pistol under a 401638- among a wole bunch of midland to warm .40 and 10MM recipes. The culprit- the primer bushing is set too deeply during manufacture. It's a warranty item. The diagnosis is from a reputed smithy...if S&W states otherwise I'll post their diagnosis and if their remedy actually worked.

[PAT303]

I had a good look at it today and the firing pin bushing is loose,when I drop the hammer the bushing moves forward and I can push it back with finger pressure,seems like it's the problem. Pat

[geargnasher]

I shot a lot of rubber boolits in the basement with just primers. .45 Colt. The Ruger cylinder would lock from primer back out. I drilled the flash holes FOR RUBBER BOOLITS ONLY, problem went away.

Yup, Gotta drill them with gluelits too if you want the cylinder to keep turning.

The combination of a deep-seated wadcutter and hollow base means LIGHT loads only for the reasons previously mentioned. If you want to shoot them full-house, turn the boolits around and seat them backwards, makes a heck of a hollow-point and can be shot safely at higher pressures.

Gear

[BossHoss]

I have had a Smith that had the same problem.

After a little arguing the facts come out, and Pat's problem is solved.

I love this site. I started reading this thread, and could not stop.

Which brings me to a hijacking , but related question:

Where can a guy here get some 38 special button head, HBWCs?

I have a 1911 38 AMU , and I would like some button head HBWC s to make the exact ammo for her, I could use H&G 50's, but it is still not a HB.

Anyone swage these? I don't know if a mold exists for them, or how hard it would be to get good boolits cast from one soft enough for a good skirt seal.