Gots a question for you Trade gun shooters

[Boerrancher]

As I recently posted I beveled the entrance to the vent hole on my trade gun which sped up the ignition time to that of many single shot cartridge guns, but I have noticed another problem. After a half dozen shots or so I start getting flashes in the pan but no boom, or if there is a boom it is delayed. I thought it was a plugged vent but that was not the case I picked the vent, reprimed it again and only a flash. On the third try it went boom. It has done this a few times when hunting, and several squirrels have escaped. I have a breach scraper and though maybe the breach plug was dirty but that wasn't the case. I am thinking about taking a small brush with me and after a couple of shots brushing out the pan and area around the vent to see if this helps. Any other suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Joe

[waksupi]

Try cutting back on your priming powder, and report back.

I would suggest drilling and tapping for a regular vent liner, rather than doing the vent cone.

[Boerrancher]

Try cutting back on your priming powder, and report back.

I would suggest drilling and tapping for a regular vent liner, rather than doing the vent cone.

Thanks Ric, I will try the smaller priming charge. I have in the past just been filling the pan, and it is quite a large pan. I was also going to shoot you a PM sometime to see about the whole vent liner thing, and will probably do so this winter. It seems that would be a good winter time project.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Maven]

Joe, I plan on following both of Ric's suggestions, but in the mean time, wiping the pan and the bottom edge of the flint will help too. I also check the tension on the flint and its alignment relative to the frizzen as my gun is notorious for loosening. Btw, I'll eventually install a Jim Chambers vent liner when I can find someone to remove the original as I don't think I have the skills or tools to do it correctly.

[waksupi]

If you have been filling your pan, that is probably your problem. Go to my thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=160571, and watch the video. You can see how much Gene is putting in his pan when he primes. This is the correct amount. As you can see, it no where near fills the pan. A light layer in the bottom is what you want.

Here is a direct link to the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh5MmIfy_eM

[Hanshi]

I use the least amount of prime that gives a good flash; this is around 1/3 pan full, give or take. That and use of a vent pick should do it.

[Marvin S]

Pipe cleaners with the bristles on em make a good vent cleaner. It shot fine when clean, so wipe the pan/flint and scrape the breech face. Dont over load the pan as stated.

[Boerrancher]

Well fellas, It would seem I was overloading the pan. I just finished 20 shots with the trade gun. The things I did was only filled the pan about 1/3 the way, after every few shots I would wipe the pan when I wiped the flint. Every shot went off with out any delays or hang fires. Now I need to make the time to sit down at a proper shooting bench and work on a PRB load for it.

I was shooting PRB for the twenty shots, at 40 yards. (My usual max range deer hunting as many times I get blood on me when I pull the trigger.) It shot well enough to kill a deer at that range but it was shooting a bit low the way I was holding it. I was shooting 70 grs of 2Fg and a .60 PRB. I bumped the charge up to 90 and didn't like the recoil, and it shot lower, so I went back to 70. It is hard to get use to not having that rear sight. I guess I will figure out how to shoot it accurately, I just need to practice... a bunch! You guys have been great so far in helping me solve the flashing pan issue, does anyone have any hints as to how to accurately shoot it?

Thanks again fellas,

Joe

[waksupi]

Okay, to find the load in a smoothbore.
This is the perfect time of year to do this, as it is hot and dry outside.
Start with around 60 grains, and use plain spit for your patch lube. Shoot a few rounds, to foul your barrel.
By the time you have done this, you should be able to feel the end of the fouling in the bore, from where it is rough, and transitions into smooth loading. What we want to do, is eliminate that rough part.
Start increasing your powder charge five grains at a time. Shoot several shots, to equalize the bore condition. The fouling ring should be moving closer to the muzzle with each powder charge increase.
You will hit a load that you have no fouling ring as you load. This will be your optimum load in that particular gun. All of the powder is then being burned as efficiently as the barrel is capable of. Any more, you are wasting powder, any less, you will be dealing with the fouling problem.
Once you find this load, it is time to put in the time, and learn the trajectory for your gun, and experiment with various lubes. Any more juggling of the powder charge will be a waste of time.
This only applies to the round ball part of load development, the shot loads take a bit more work. That is because as you change the shot charge weights, you need to go back and work with the powder charges like you did with the round ball. Different payloads effect how clean a load will shoot.

As far as sight picture goes, that is something you need to figure out with each individual gun. With my trade gun, I sight over the breech, until I can just see the rear wedding ring. I use the base of the front sight as my aiming point. I suspect this will put you pretty much on target.
With my fowler, I took the time to bend the barrel, until i can sight directly from the top of the breech, and the top of the front sight. After I did the sighting in like this, I consistently shoot better scores with this gun, than my rifles on the courses.

[sharps4590]

waksupi, that's interesting about the fouling ring. That is if you're talking about the fouling ring between ball and powder charge. In almost 40 years of shooting muzzleloaders I've never heard that....but then I'm not much of a smoothbore shooter either. I'll have to give that a whirl.

Joe, with a smoothie and only a front sight your eye becomes the rear sight. For consistent shooting you need the same spot weld on the stock every time. If you move your spot weld up, you've essentially raised the rear sight and the opposite is also true. If you already knew that, tell me to shut up and go sit in a corner....lol!!

[waksupi]

waksupi, that's interesting about the fouling ring. That is if you're talking about the fouling ring between ball and powder charge. In almost 40 years of shooting muzzleloaders I've never heard that....but then I'm not much of a smoothbore shooter either. I'll have to give that a whirl.

Joe, with a smoothie and only a front sight your eye becomes the rear sight. For consistent shooting you need the same spot weld on the stock every time. If you move your spot weld up, you've essentially raised the rear sight and the opposite is also true. If you already knew that, tell me to shut up and go sit in a corner....lol!!

I may not have explained that as clearly as I would like. What I mean is, you will be able to feel the rough powder fouling in the front part of the barrel, before you get down to where the barrel has shot clean. The transition is what I am referring to as the fouling ring. Does that make any better sense? I know what I mean, I'm just having a hard time stating it correctly, I guess.

The rear sighting is actually pretty precise. Once you have established the sight picture, it is the same as having a rear sight. I shot straws in half with mine last weekend, and drive tacks in boards pretty regular. I did win the smoothbore part of the shoot last weekend.
At the world championships, you are cutting strings, splitting balls, shooting targets smaller than your ball, and targets out to around 150 yards. I've won two of those, and tied a third year. There isn't much "by guess, and by God" involved in the shooting of smoothbores, once you have made friends with them.

[Mike Brooks]

You need to bend your barrel to get it to shoot where you want it to.

[waksupi]

By the way, I prefer 3FFF in smoothbores.

[Boerrancher]

I have noticed the fouling ring you are talking about. When I shot the 90 grain load the fouling ring was about 6 inches from the muzzle, with the 50 grain load it is less than half way up the bore. I thought about increasing the charge more to bring the ring beyond the muzzle, but was concerned because I didn't know how much pressure that thin barrel could take. I am guessing that it is probably going to take somewhere around 100 to 105 grains of powder to get that ring out of the bore.

Would a tighter load help or not? The patch and ball combo I am using I can just start with my thumb, much tighter and I will have to use a short starter, which I want to avoid. I will also try some 3Fg. I was using 2Fg because I got a good pattern with it at 30 yards with 50 grains and 1 1/8 oz of #5 shot. As a side note yesterday I killed 2 squirrels with one shot with that shot load at 30 steps or so. Both were sitting on the same limb next to each other cutting hickory nuts. I love it for squirrels with the dense foliage on the trees. I have taken squirrels that I would have never gotten a shot at with my 32 cal.

Thanks again for all of the help with the smoothie. I would have muddled around for a long time before figuring it out if I ever figured it out.

Best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

Go to 3FFF. 90 Gr. of 2FF is way more than should be necessary. With the 3FFF, you will probably top off around 70-75 gr. Burns faster and cleaner.

[waksupi]

Paul, if you already have a vent liner in, I wouldn't bother changing out to a Chambers. The standard type are just fine, and the inside coning is not all that much different. The White Lightnings are better in perception,than in fact.

[sharps4590]

Ok waksupi, now I know what you're talking about reference the fouling in the barrel. I guess it was the "ring" part that had me confused. The patch of fouling you mention....in my rifles it's more like a 6-10 inch spot in the barrel where it feels "rough". Where it is in the barrel depends on the rifle and load. Not like a "ring" as the fouling ring in front of the powder charge.

My 20 bore fling fowler is pretty darn accurate with PRB's. I am not very good with it beyond 40-50 yards but I don't lay that on the gun. I can remember a couple matches quite well where smoothbore shooters shot with us rifle guys......and I got my clock cleaned!!!!!!!

[Boerrancher]

I never would have imagined that a smoothy could be so accurate. I always figured that if I could keep them in a 9 inch circle at 40 yards I was good to go. Now I have something to really shoot for, pun intended.

I swapped out powder horns on my hunting bag for the trade gun to my full size 3Fg horn. I have a bunch of cucumbers and carrots to can today so in between the busy times I will be finding that powder charge and then searching for the right load combo afterward. I will report back once I start getting close.

Thanks again and best wishes,

Joe

[Maven]

Joe, Here's a PDF image (attached) of what I did with mine last July @ 25 yd. from a position of semi-rest (left hand on gun, right arm on table, one knee on ground). Let me know if you can open it.

[Hanshi]

Interesting information about fouling rings, waksupi; This is something I've never thought about. I may not completely understand this concept as the only fouling ring I'm familiar with is the crud ring that builds up in the breech area. This can't be what you're referring to?

[waksupi]

Interesting information about fouling rings, waksupi; This is something I've never thought about. I may not completely understand this concept as the only fouling ring I'm familiar with is the crud ring that builds up in the breech area. This can't be what you're referring to?

Go back through the posts, I think it is explained fairly well now.

[Boerrancher]

I got a bit heavier patching, and had to use my short starter, but 70 grains of 3Fg seemed to be where it burned clean. I started just shooting at random targets, out to about 40 yards, and then found some of those yellow flowers at about 25 yards, and got to where I was exploding them about every other shot and making the ones sway that I missed. I think by Nov if I keep practicing I will be ready for deer season. Thanks for all of the help Ric.

Best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

Just for grins and giggles, go back to your thinner patching, and see how the loads work with that. You may need a smidge more or less powder.
Smoothbores don't need a real tight patch to shoot well. Try to stay away from using the short starter. It sounds like you are figuring it out. Go get 'em!

By the way, how is your recoil at the 70 gr. level? Pretty acceptable?

I think I will sticky this thread, since we have covered round ball in the smooth bore pretty well. Between this thread for roundball, and the V.M. Starr thread for shooting shot, it may help others in the future.

[Maven]

Joe, et. al., After reading quite a few posts on various forums about smoothies and patched RB's, I've learned that patches in a smoothbore act differently than they do in a rifle. I.e., in a rifle, the patch expands or should expand to fill the grooves. A tight[er] or thicker patch is often beneficial in a rifled bbl. However, in a smoothbore, a thicker patch really has nowhere to go and just makes starting and seating the ball more difficult. This is most definitely the case in my gun as I've tried .014" -> .018" pillow tick patches with both .597" (Tanner) and .600" (Dixie) RB's and have found no real improvement in accuracy using thicker patches. In fact, the .597" RB is the more accurate of the two and performs as well with either the .014" or the .017" material I've recently been using. The .017" patches are a trifle more difficult to load, of course.

[Boerrancher]

I was planning on trying several patch thicknesses when I get the chance to actually sit down and play with it more. I want to avoid the short starter. I use it on my 50 cal rifles because it is a habit more than a necessity and my 50s shoot so well with the slightly tighter load. I don't use it on my 32 and don't want it to become a habit with the trade gun. As far as the recoil with 70 grains of powder, it isn't bad. It doesn't make the steel pins in my shoulder yell back at me like the 90 grains of 2F did.

I think I need to work on the trigger pull a bit, and it will help with accuracy. It must have a 30 lb trigger pull, with a lot of creep and stops in it. I can live with the 30 lbs of pull as and creep as long as it is smooth and even. I think the lock just needs a bit of polish work. I know not to take much off, use power tools on it, or change any angles. I was going to use a small diamond file to smooth things up a bit. I know I can't do anything about the poundage off it, but at this point anything will help.

Also, how often should the lock be pulled off and cleaned? I know with my other guns I pull them about once a year, but the barrels come off for cleaning, unlike the trade gun which is fixed. I try to keep the gunk from running into the lock when I am cleaning it, but it still happens to some extent.

Best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

With a flinter, I take the lock off every time I clean. Pretty much a necessity to do a good job.
I wish I had the gun in hand, I could fix that heavy trigger for you. I'm pretty sure someone put that gun together from a kit, from some of the design differences I saw in your pictures. I suspect the trigger may have been hung incorrectly. If you can pull the lock, and give me a good picture of the mortice where the trigger is pinned, I can tell you. It may be an easy fix.
The other place to look for smoothing the trigger pull, is on the tumbler. Disassemble the lock, and use a magnifying glass to look at the engagement surface of the full cock notch. Sometimes these can be pretty rough, in the best of locks. If it is rough, you would need a fine grade diamond lap stick, and carefully polish the surface. Do not change any angles!
Also check the engagement surface of the sear. This should also be polished bright.
Check the lock and see that it functions easily when off the gun. If it does, and you still feel a lot of creep and drag when it is in the gun, there may very well be wood interference somewhere, that will need cleaned up.
The trigger pull is definitely one of the most important things with a smoothbore.
If all else fails, send the lock to me, and I'll tune it.

[Boerrancher]

I think I just solved about 90% of my trigger pull problem. There was a huge burr rolled up on the sear. Once I carefully removed it and polished it things are moving a great deal smoother. It doesn't feel like it has half the gravel from my creek in it. I can actually point the thing and steadily apply pressure and have it fire with out it catching and dragging. It still may need a bit of final tuning later on but at least it is quite shootable now. There was no need for a magnifying glass to see the rough spot. A blind man could have seen the thing it was so bad. Thanks again for all of the help.

Best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

I would still check the engagement notch on the tumbler for roughness some time. If you want to go a step further, push out the pin that holds the trigger. Check the top engagement surface of the trigger. Ideally, they are polished quite smooth. This can also help eliminate gravel from a gun.
Once these steps are done, and assuming the trigger is hung properly, your trigger pull should go down to around 4# or so.

[Boerrancher]

I am assuming that all the pins on a trade gun are like the barrel wedges on other guns. They are inserted from left to right and removed from right to left. I am thinking of getting the 4 way tool that the Brits used on their Brown Bess muskets. That tool looks like a must have for smoothy shooters. I won't buy it, I will most likely make one specifically for my gun, but the same concept.

Best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

I am assuming that all the pins on a trade gun are like the barrel wedges on other guns. They are inserted from left to right and removed from right to left. I am thinking of getting the 4 way tool that the Brits used on their Brown Bess muskets. That tool looks like a must have for smoothy shooters. I won't buy it, I will most likely make one specifically for my gun, but the same concept.

Best wishes,

Joe

Well, if you ever get hold of a gun I have made, you will find the pins have been put in from the right side. Why do you want to take the barrel out for? I only remove a flintlock barrel maybe once every ten years, to check for rust.

[Boerrancher]

I was asking not to remove the barrel anytime soon, but the trigger. I think if I take the trigger out and polish the top of it up a bit like you suggested, it will make the trigger pull as smooth as a baby's butt. I have it close now by polishing the sear and the tumbler. Each time I do something to it, it gets 100X better. The only thing left is the trigger top. On my Phily Derringer all of the pins are tapered and inserted from the left to the right, and removed from right to left. I gave it to my step father and after a few years of shooting decided to remove the barrel and broke the stock because he dove the pins out the wrong way. I don't want to take a chance on cracking the stock if I decide to remove the trigger pin because it was tapered and I didn't catch it and drove it the wrong way.

Best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

Gotcha. You may, or may not need to remove the trigger guard to get the trigger out. Probably not. I am pretty sure you will find the trigger pin was put in from the mortice side.
All pins in a North Star should be straight, with no taper.

[Boerrancher]

Thank you Ric for the info about the pins, that is exactly what I was looking for. I should have been more straight forward in my questioning in the first place about all of the pins.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Boerrancher]

I pulled the trigger and polished it yesterday after getting back from squirrel hunting, while I had the lock out for cleaning. The trigger was not as rough as I thought it might be but it wasn't smooth either. I also removed a small amount of wood with a file, where the trigger was dragging on it. I don't think the wood removal made that much difference but every little bit helps. I think I may need to do a bit more work on the tumbler but I will wait until I am not using the gun.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Boerrancher]

I shot a 5 shot group at 30 yards with the trade gun this evening. I was using my thin pillow ticking for patching and a .60 cast round ball with 70 grains of 3Fg. I was quite pleased with the results at 30 yards. I kept all 5 in under 3 inches, and I also think I have found my aiming point with the load as all 5 of them were right where I was aiming. I think now that I have reworked the lock and got the trigger pull under control I am going to like the way this gun shoots.

Also by switching to the 3Fg I have also tightened up my shot pattern, and can now almost knock all the hair off of a squirrel at 20 steps if I am not careful and can easily reach out and roll one out of a tree at 35 to 40 steps.

I now realize that everything I was told in years past about smooth bores and flint locks was not exactly true. Things like, "Flint locks are slow and unreliable." yes this can be true if you have a junk lock, bad flints, and bad touch holes. Also the myth, "smooth bore guns are not accurate." Well that is true if you are comparing it to my custom built 243win with the 3x9x40 scope at 100 yards. But when comparing it to the average muzzle loading rifle at 60 yards, it is not really true. Over all I am very pleased with my trade gun now that I have worked out many of the issues that it came to me with. If someone was looking for an all around do it all muzzleloader, I would recommend a well made trade gun like those made by North Star West or one of the other more widely known custom builders.

I also thank each and every one of you fellas here who have contributed to this thread and helped me get this gun up and running like it should be. With out each of your thoughts on the subject I would not be nearly as happy with this gun as I am.

Best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

I love it when a plan comes together!

[Boerrancher]

Well yesterday morning was a very productive experience with the trade gun. I took it out on the back deck where I normally do much of my off hand 100 yard shooting at a 10 inch gong a made years ago. I have always figured that if I could keep all of my shots off hand within that 10 inches at 100 yards, with any of my MLs or old lever guns, I figure I was good to shoot at a deer at that distance with said guns.

I fired 10 shots at the gong using 70 grains of 3Fg powder, a 0.012 pillow ticking patch, wrapped around a 0.605 round ball. The first shot was a grease patch, lubed with Crisco, just like I would use in the woods for the fist load, and the follow up shots were spit patches. I always try to practice the way I would hunt, starting with a grease patch, followed by spit patches. I was quite please with the results as I hit the gong all ten shots. I seriously think I am ready for deer season in a couple of months. I figure if I keep practicing every day or even just a few times a week with the old gun, there won't be a deer inside of 100 yards that is safe, and most of my shots are under 20 yards.

Best wishes,

Joe

P.S.

I also a couple days ago while I was working on the lock to get the trigger pull righted, was trying to figure out how I could dry fire the gun and not cause any wear and tear on the lock in order to check the trigger pull. Then it hit me, replace the flint with a piece of wood the sized and shaped like the flint. The wooden replacement for the flint would serve to soften the hammer fall against the frizzen and pan, all the while allowing me to get a proper feel of how the trigger and lock were acting when installed in the gun. This simple piece of wood allowed me to test the lock and trigger pull, and make adjustments where needed, because I could actually assemble and "fire" the gun in my work room. So if you are ever needing to dry fire your flinter for any reason, replace the flint with a piece of wood the same size and you will be good to go.

[waksupi]

It sounds like you have the accuracy thing figured out! Very good!

[Abert Rim]

Wow what an insightful thread. Thanks to all who posted here!

[bigted]

I also have a great respect for this thread as I am gaining confidence in getting a flint smoothie. thanks fellas for the insights and procedures ... very helpful.

[crowbarforge]

Good stuff here!

[Newtire]

I am assuming that all the pins on a trade gun are like the barrel wedges on other guns. They are inserted from left to right and removed from right to left. I am thinking of getting the 4 way tool that the Brits used on their Brown Bess muskets. That tool looks like a must have for smoothy shooters. I won't buy it, I will most likely make one specifically for my gun, but the same concept.

Best wishes,

Joe
In the auto repair business, direction is always as viewed from the input side of say, an engine and right or left is always as viewed from sitting in the car and facing the front. How are you looking at the gun when you say right and left? I had assumed it would be looking towards the front of the gun with the triggers facing down..?

[bigted]

i know from my point of view it as such;

looking down the barrel sights as if to shoot ... the right is to my right, left is to my left ... top is the sights and top flat of the barrel and the under side or bottom is where the ramrod fits in under the barrel and the trigger/trigger guard is located. the back is where the gun touch's my body [cheek and shoulder].

this is what i term the directions ... if anyone has further info im all ears.

[Newtire]

Thanks Ted. It helps when trying to figure which way to drive the pins in and out, as well as which way to drive on sights!

[LAGS]

The pins should drive in from the right.
Drive out from the left.
Hold the rifle or pistol and point it .
The right side is on your right.
After all.
Isn't a gun an extension of Your Body.