U.S.M.C. orders more 1911`s

[Hardcast416taylor]

A friend of mine in D.C. just told me about a new weapons buy by the Marines. The Marines are spending $22.5 million on new Colt manfactured 1911 close quarter combat pistols. The 12,000 pistols will be tan colored and equipped with all the necessary bells & whistles the military wants on them. Of course the pistol will be chambered in .45 acp. Also in the purchase will be spare parts and logistical support as necessary. You just can`t deny a Marine a proven weapon when he says he needs it.Robert

[Plate plinker]

Awesome hope it's all true. Maybe we can get some good gi brass from the range. :grin:

[jameslovesjammie]

$1,875 a pistol? Wow. I'm all for having the best there is for our troops, but that seems a little steep to me.

[Artful]

It will have prancing pony on it so that worth the price - right?

[mongo]

I remember looking in the property book in the late 70's and the price for the units 1911 pistols was something like $47 and purchased in the mid 40's.

[SciFiJim]

I remember looking in the property book in the late 70's and the price for the units 1911 pistols was something like $47 and purchased in the mid 40's.

I ran $47 in 1945 through an inflation calculator to figure what today's price should be .....


$600.

The fact that the .gov is paying three times that price means that it will be made in the U.S.A by union workers whose union will kick part of their dues back to a politician somewhere.


I am still glad to see that they will be made in America. Some things are just worth the price.

[9.3X62AL]

It will have prancing pony on it so that worth the price - right?

That's "Rampant Colt", thank you. 1911A1, Colt, 45 ACP. All good. Better an $1875 service pistol than some $500 toilet seat.

[Lonegun1894]

I'm sure they're going to be better than the Remington Rand I was issued in 2001, which I had to beg for as a replacement for my M-9 which was much worse. I know the price is steep, but it's much cheaper than Marine blood. Hopefully this will lead to all the branches replacing the 9mm and going back to something that works.

[jwp475]

The Marines never stopped using the 1911 and now they have ordered more





-----------------------------------------------------------------------







http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/





Sticking to their guns: Marines place $22.5M order for the Colt .45 M1911
By Maegan Vazquez

Published July 28, 2012

FoxNews.com




The M1911 Colt .45


The Colt .45 M1911 is making a big comeback, now that the U.S. Marines have placed a $22.5 million order for the Connecticut-made pistols.



It’s been called the greatest handgun ever made, and it has barely changed sine 1911, when the legendary John Browning designed it especially for the U.S. Military.

And now, the Colt .45 M1911 is making a big comeback, now that the U.S. Marines have placed a $22.5 million order for the Connecticut-made pistols.

The gun, which has been wielded on film by John Wayne and in real life by Sgt. Alvin York and Maj. Audie Murphy, was the standard-issue sidearm in the military for decades, until it was replaced by the Beretta M9 in 1985.


"It just became an iconic part of military and American history."
- Gerry Dinkel, CEO and president of Colt Defense


"It just became an iconic part of military and American history," Gerry Dinkel, CEO and president of Colt Defense, told FoxNews.com.

The gun, one of the most successful pistols ever used at Camp Perry's National Matches, a competition known to be the main world event in artillery sports, has barely changed since it's creation. Dinkel says that shows the gun's "elegant design" just can't be improved on. And firearms experts agree.

"You can’t beat a .45 cartridge," Jack Lewis, firearms director for Cowan's Auctions, told FoxNews.com. "Some things are hard to replace," he said.

Colt Defense, based in Hartford, Conn., will supply as many as 12,000 of the 200,000 U.S. Marines with semi-automatic, tan-colored M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistols, and they will include spare parts and logistical support. The gun has long been the weapon of choice for special operations agents, thanks to its reliability and the stopping power of its massive bullets.

"I'm really glad that they're keeping it in the American economy," Lewis, who used the gun while he was in the armed forces, said. "I was quite upset when they went to the Beretta," Lewis said.

Some reports suggest Marines are not happy with their main Beretta M9s for their lack of accuracy and stopping power. With M1911's now supplying Special Ops, growing interest may lead to a better solution.

"To have the 1911 selected again for U. S. Forces 101 years after its initial introduction is just an incredible testament to the timeless design and effectiveness of the Colt 1911," Dinkel said. "This is truly a gratifying contract award."

[EMC45]

I remember in 1996 our batallion (Seabees) got rid of the 1911. They shipped all the guns and mags to Crane Ind. to be melted. I handled one before they got rid of them It was like new condition. Park was nice and deep, had the hard brown grips on it and it was tight. No telling how old or how many times it was rebuilt though. I do know that our gunner's mate showed me the receipt on the M9 Berettas. $52 a piece. Should have saved our money..........

[NSP64]

That's "Rampant Colt", thank you. 1911A1, Colt, 45 ACP. All good. Better an $1875 service pistol than some $500 toilet seat.

Ever been at 37,000 feet and suddenly find out your breakfast isn't agreeing with you?????
$500.00 seem pretty reasonable

:bigsmyl2:

[Judan_454]

Its a newer version of the 1911,it has a skeletonized hammer and a flashlight rail. Don't know if that makes them worth $1875

[Freightman]

That's "Rampant Colt", thank you. 1911A1, Colt, 45 ACP. All good. Better an $1875 service pistol than some $500 toilet seat.

Where do you think the money for "Black Opps" comes from if it isn't budgeted?

[rmcc]

At 100 times the price not worth one drop of Marine blood!!! The gun works, they want it, and until they all come home........


Rich

[bowfin]

I once talked to a Marine aviator, whose career was remarkable because he transitioned from Choctaw helicopters to A-4 Skyhawk attack aircraft. He asked the armorer if he could trade in his revolver for a 1911. The armorer was enthusiastic that a pilot was gun savvy enough to want to trade, so he brought out one he had been tinkering with to make it a real tack driver. The pilot shot it and declared it top notch.

Only problem with the pilot's new acquisition was that when the red dust started to blow around the airbase, it turned that tightly fitted 1911 into a single shot, unless he religiously field stripped it and cleaned it. Thinking that an unplanned parachute ride and a race back to friendly lines would:

A. Be the time most likely when his life would depend on the gun, and

B. The least likely time he would have the opportunity to clean the gun,

The pilot sadly turned it back in and asked for something more like a Colt Rattler.

If the Marines want 1911s, that's fine with me. However, they might want to give them out and play with them before they have to go out and work with them, and then decide if they might not rather have a Glock.

[Finster101]

As stated before the Marines never fully quit using the 1911. There is a big diiference in a target pistol and a service pistol, if they were having problems with them I don't think they would be ordering more. I'll take the feel of a 1911 in my hand any day over a "Block" and my guns will feed anything I throw at them.

[ElDorado]

I think they're needed to replace the WWII frames. Read this article from 2001 on Force Recon weapons. If you scroll down you'll see a section titled "Pistol, Caliber .45 MEU (SOC) (NSN100S-O1-370-7353)". It looks a lot like what they're buying now.

http://www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm

Then go back and read all of the articles.

[waksupi]

Where do you think the money for "Black Opps" comes from if it isn't budgeted?

Ever hear of $1200 toilet seats?

[jwp475]

I once talked to a Marine aviator, whose career was remarkable because he transitioned from Choctaw helicopters to A-4 Skyhawk attack aircraft. He asked the armorer if he could trade in his revolver for a 1911. The armorer was enthusiastic that a pilot was gun savvy enough to want to trade, so he brought out one he had been tinkering with to make it a real tack driver. The pilot shot it and declared it top notch.

Only problem with the pilot's new acquisition was that when the red dust started to blow around the airbase, it turned that tightly fitted 1911 into a single shot, unless he religiously field stripped it and cleaned it. Thinking that an unplanned parachute ride and a race back to friendly lines would:

A. Be the time most likely when his life would depend on the gun, and

B. The least likely time he would have the opportunity to clean the gun,

The pilot sadly turned it back in and asked for something more like a Colt Rattler.

If the Marines want 1911s, that's fine with me. However, they might want to give them out and play with them before they have to go out and work with them, and then decide if they might not rather have a Glock.



If a 1911 jams because of dust and dirt then it is not fitted correctly.

I carried this stainless 1911 daily for years often shaking the dust and dirt from it and it never failed to perform flawlessly. Accuracy comes from a quality barrel and the barrel slide lock up, not from tightening the slide frame fit which makes them problematic for function

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/PenetrationTest45ACP255GrainBuffalBore001.jpg

Also the Marines never stopped using the 1911 and are fully aware of its reliability

[garym1a2]

They would be much better off with GLOCK 21SF, Glock 22, Glock 17 or Glock 19.
My Glock 22has ran over 2000 rounds so far without a malfunction this year in the 40 cal barrel and the 9mm barrel works rather well also. For less than $600 they could have a dual caliber that is 100%. Plus you can mix and match parts on them. With a 1911 you better be well fitted and have good mags.

P.S 8 round mags stink when you can have 15 rounds of 40S&W or 17-19 rounds of 9mm on tap.

[jwp475]

Eight round mag plus one in the barrel equal 9. I'll take that over a 9 any day of the week

[jwp475]

1000 rounds fired in a stock 1991 as fast as he could fire and change preloaded magazines

WITHOUT A JAM ten minutes and 44 seconds total time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7wL2QuFTLQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFF0TbhgQMY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfZ9AdOWUNw&feature=fvwrel

[waksupi]

Eight round mag plus one in the barrel equal 9. I'll take that over a 9 any day of the week

I'm pretty much off of eight round magazines. I got some of the McCormicks, and they were failing to feed on the last round, sometimes next to last. I contacted the company, and was told the magazines can't be left loaded. I told them that's no good, I carry all the time. Then Chip told me they were designed to only shoot a certain type of bullet. Once again, no good for me. I shoot cast.
All in all, he was a dick about it. I ordered new followers and springs from Brownell's, went back to seven rounds in the magazines, and no problems.

[bowfin]

Also the Marines never stopped using the 1911 and are fully aware of its reliability

One really doesn't know how well something does or doesn't work based on singular experience, even if it spans a century. It has to be compared to its contemporaries and then judged. The Ford Model A pickup is fantastic based on its history and universal usage over the decades, but when compared to a HUMVEE, it starts to show its age.

I am sure the "Made in America" angle was huge, though.

[Plate plinker]

That price isn't really out of line for the dod, especially if they get a lot of support from colt.

That said if I bought that many I would expect a price break.

[felix]

Pistols are obsolete for battle applications as we all are aware. It's the police action I'm worried about because sooner or later I'll be the enemy. In that regard, I wish they all were reverting back to the BP guns. ... felix

[Uncle R.]

Pistols are obsolete for battle applications as we all are aware. It's the police action I'm worried about because sooner or later I'll be the enemy. In that regard, I wish they all were reverting back to the BP guns. ... felix

But...
But...
Felix - You're not supposed to say that.
They're the marines.
They would never allow themselves to be used against freedom-loving Americans.
They would never allow themselves to be used to enforce martial law - or to consolidate the total control of Obama or someone like him.
After all - they took an oath - and wasn't part of that oath to defend the constitution?
<
Hmm...
Was that right after the part where they swore to obey orders?
<
Anyway - I'm sure things will be OK.
Why would you be concerned?
Let's just watch the olympics on TV.
<
Uncle R.

[35remington]

If the 1911 has a eight round magazine in it, let's sincerely hope it's not a flush fit design. There's nothing like a nine shot 1911 that jams a lot.

[garym1a2]

Since they mostly carry empty chamber it means a 7 shooter.

[atr]

Never had my 1911 jam on me in RVN...lots of red dust and mud over there

[jwp475]

I'm pretty much off of eight round magazines. I got some of the McCormicks, and they were failing to feed on the last round, sometimes next to last. I contacted the company, and was told the magazines can't be left loaded. I told them that's no good, I carry all the time. Then Chip told me they were designed to only shoot a certain type of bullet. Once again, no good for me. I shoot cast.
All in all, he was a dick about it. I ordered new followers and springs from Brownell's, went back to seven rounds in the magazines, and no problems.



Unfortunate that you have problems with the McCormick magazines. I use them and have no such problems. AS for as to the springs in the magazine Wolfe sells replacement springs and the springs should periodically be replaced in all magazines.

I leave mine loaded always

[bowfin]

Never had my 1911 jam on me in RVN...lots of red dust and mud over there

...and the Marine pilot I quoted was okay with his 1911A1 Colt Rattler as he called it. That was the nickname alluding to Colt naming handguns after snakes and the generous play in the fitting of the GI 1911A1s that might have detracted from aesthetics and accuracy but helped in the reliability department.

Arguing handgun platforms is like arguing deer cartridges or beer brands. We like what we like, and if we perform well with what we like (okay, exclude the beer from this part of the analogy) then the rest isn't worth mentioning.

I will second the opinion that if it means more .45 ACP brass on the market, then we shooters win!

[Hardcast416taylor]

Everybody seems to be figuring the $22.5 million is just for pistols. The cost also was for spare parts and logistical assistence ( whatever that`s supposed to be). I`m sure the spare parts would include extra mags, grips, sights, firing pins etc. So the actual pistol cost will come in at a more reasonable figure, still not cheap - but glad it`s back.Robert

[1Shirt]

The 1911 is a case of "if it works, don't fix it!" It is a combat weapon period. It doesn't have a 20 round mag, but a single hit with a 45ACP, makes up for multi hits often required for a 9. Make the first shot out of a 1911 count, and you still have 7 backup! And American made at that by golly!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[x101airborne]

ANY service-person decides they want a 1911 over that damn M-9, I will pay my part of that tax to give it to em. Now if we can just get rid of that coyote gun for a battle rifle, I would be real happy.

And I prefer paying that money for new weapons versus paying for another impeachment, scandal, national trial, etc. They want new 45's? I would vote for doubling that order. Lets just hang a couple politicians to pay for it.

[bowfin]

but a single hit with a 45ACP, makes up for multi hits often required for a 9

Do you personally know anyone who shoot just a single round at an assailant/combatant regardless of cartridge choice?

Alvin York did so only because he had as many charging Huns with bayonets as he had cartridges. He didn't have the luxury of an insurance round.

[jwp475]

Do you personally know anyone who shoot just a single round at an assailant/combatant regardless of cartridge choice?

Alvin York did so only because he had as many charging Huns with bayonets as he had cartridges. He didn't have the luxury of an insurance round.



Nor did he need one

[W.R.Buchanan]

Uncle R: that oath says defend against all threats, "foreign or domestic." The only hope we have is our guys will not obey the order. Only problem they will only send guys who will obey the order so be prepared for a fight. Also know they are probably going to be better than you or me.

Also LAPD has been trading in for 1911's also,,, Kimbers that are about $1850 a pop. They even have a special model designed just for them. See magazine advertisements in all current gun mags.

I have a Glock 21SF for $600. 13 rounds and it never quits either.

If I got a 1911, (I like the Kimber 5" with the rounded butt which is illegal in CA, but the 4" is OK?) I would have to get rid of the Glocks because of the operating difference. You need to have operation down rote, and trying to run 2 different styles of guns just wouldn't work.

I do love the 1911's though! And I am glad the guys on the ground are getting what they want instead of what some Assh$l^ Politician is buying from someone who bought him.

Randy

[Plate plinker]

I'm pretty much off of eight round magazines. I got some of the McCormicks, and they were failing to feed on the last round, sometimes next to last. I contacted the company, and was told the magazines can't be left loaded. I told them that's no good, I carry all the time. Then Chip told me they were designed to only shoot a certain type of bullet. Once again, no good for me. I shoot cast.
All in all, he was a dick about it. I ordered new followers and springs from Brownell's, went back to seven rounds in the magazines, and no problems.

That's why I prefer Wilson mags. They work and work well. I also have chip magsbut they just don't work as well.

[DanWalker]

Carried an m9 for a decade as a USMC tanker/mechanic. HATED the damned things. Never saw more than one in five that would hit where the sights were. Most of the time we'd fire an initial group at the range, then create an aiming point out of target pasties, based on how far off the damned sights were. For those who say a pistol is a secondary weapon, let me remind you that a rifle doesn't work when you're crawling through bunkers in the dark, with a flashlight in one hand. Luckily for me, the ranges were so short, and it was so dark, that sights really weren't needed anyhow.
Mine was the last Parris Island boot camp series to shoot 45's, way back in 1988. The one I got to shoot was plenty accurate.
Glad to see my beloved Corps going back to a proper fighting sidearm. That being said, what we REALLY need is a weapon which allows us to kill the ******** starting these wars. Ahmedinejad and his ilk wouldn't be nearly as rowdy if they knew that we could turn them into a smoking hole in the ground anytime we wanted to, and not even wrinkle the uniforms of the guys standing next to him. Slaughtering the young ignorant men or our countries enemies gains us nothing. The cowards hiding behind them and throwing them at us to die like sheep are the ones we need to kill. Actively targeting the leaders of countries hostile to us would change the face of modern warfare overnight. Unfortunately it wouldn't make defense contractors rich, like the current system does...

[MtGun44]

The toilet seat stories are largely BS. If you are interested in the facts, I will pass it on.

Do not believe the media. It is "sorta true" but not really. Aviation Week investigated
it years ago and published the facts.

Bill

[Lonegun1894]

One poster made the argument that his Glock has had 2 thousand rounds fired through it with no signs of trouble. I carried a Remington Rand 1911 until I got back to the US the first time, then bought my personal, which I then proceeded to take on every mission/deployment until I got out in 2005. My personal 1911 has had just over 70 THOUSAND rounds through it and still works just fine. Yes, I kept records of how many rounds total, how many factory, how many issued, and how many handloads. So I am not impressed with any Glock or anything else that has had a few hundred or even a couple thousand rounds fired without trouble. In fact, I would get rid of any weapon that I had to even begin being concerned about after a few thousand rounds. Even after that many rounds, I have broken several 4" clay pidgeons at a measured 100yds with first round hits with my carry 1911 in front of witnesses. I am not saying that a Glock or any other weapon is bad, but I just dont believe any of them measure up to what a 1911 can do. The 1911 is a great pistol, firing a great caliber, that can be trusted to be both accurate and reliable. The one I still carry is the same one I carried in the Service, and it has been through many different conditions that made Berettas, and a few other brands, including Glocks, fail miserably. Dont get me wrong, I like Glocks, but in the end, I will gladly sacrifice a few rounds capacity and a lighter weapon, in exchange for a heavier weapon I can trust with my life. And as far as I'm concerned, anyone who would choose capacity over effect has not been there and done the job so doesn't base their opinion on fact but gunrag fiction instead. Now if the military ever starts issueing expanding ammo instead of FMJ, I may consider recommending a smaller caliber with higher capacity, but until then, bigger and heavier is better. And the same thing goes for rifles. What ground pounder would really want a glorified .22 to stake their life on?

[Wal']

One might say the 1911 design has been improved, but never bettered. :bigsmyl2:

[jwp475]

More info on the contract, those that thought they had it figured out apparently didn't

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...ESRC=marine.nl

Marines Pick Colt for New Pistol

Jul 20, 2012

Military.com| by Matthew Cox


Add a Comment
.

The Marine Corps has tapped Colt Defense LLC to make more than 10,000 new Close Quarter Battle Pistols for the service's elite special operations troops.

The July 19 contract, which has a total value of $22.5 million, brings an end to the Corps' exhaustive search for the top .45 caliber, 1911-style pistol to replace the fleet of worn-out Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command, or MARSOC, M45 pistols.





Colt Defense, based in Hartford, Conn., was the original maker of John Browning's revered 1911 design – a potent handgun that served all branches of the U.S. Military for more than 70 years until it was replaced by the M9 9mm pistol in 1985.

Marine officials, however, say they didn't play favorites.

"It was performance based. . . . We picked the best-performing pistol," said Charles Clark III, who oversees infantry weapons requirements at the Corps' Combat Development and Integration office in Quantico, Va. "There were three candidates that made the final round of consideration," but Clark would not discuss the competitors.

In addition to Colt, Springfield Armory's Full Size MC Operator and Smith & Wesson's 1911 design were also contenders, sources tell Military.com.

Marine testers placed a high priority on accuracy. The winner had to be capable of putting five-shot groups on target that "didn't exceed four inches by four inches at 25 yards" from an unsupported firing position, Clark said. Reliability and magazine life were other important factors in the decision.

The new Close Quarter Battle Pistols will be very similar to the M45s they are replacing this fall. They will have a rail for mounting lights, a custom trigger, a manual safety, improved ergonomics and glowing Tritium sights for low-light conditions.


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The most visual difference is the Colt models will come in Coyote tan instead of gunmetal, Clark said.

The Corps began issuing custom 1911 .45 pistols to its elite Force Reconnaissance units in the 1990s. Gunsmiths at the Quantico Weapons Training Battalion Precision Weapons Section hand built them from old 1911s that had been replaced by the M9 in the mid 1980s.

The creation of the first MARSOC units in 2006 caused the requirement to grow from 400 pistols to 4,000 pistols. Finding enough surplus 1911s for the Precision Weapons Section's custom rebuilds became impractical.

"We realized that hand building 4,000 guns was not sustainable," Clark said.

Marine officials would not discuss the individual price for each new pistol. But the $22.5 million contract to Colt will allow the Corps to buy replacements for the new pistols as they wear out, Clark said. The contract also includes some money for spare parts.

"The contract is built so we can re-buy the approved acquisitions objective three times, so we can buy 4,000 guns three times," Clark said. "These pistols will be getting used a lot; deployed a lot so the guns are going to get shot out."

MARSOC operators stay on a rigorous deployment cycle, "so they fire a lot of rounds. It's a 15,000-round plus [training] work-up to a deployment," Clark said.
"It's more efficient to replace the guns over time instead of attempting to completely rebuild them."

[bowfin]

My personal 1911 has had just over 70 THOUSAND rounds through it and still works just fine.

...only 200,000 more rounds and you will have caught up with Chuck Taylor's Glock 17...providing he stops shooting it...

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/combat-handguns/glock-17-9mm-torture-test/

However, one can't argue opinions. If I had to go shoot it out tomorrow at High Noon, I would take my Ruger .357, even though 99 out of a 100 would say different.

[David2011]

Ever hear of $1200 toilet seats?

Yep, they were for the vacuum flush toilets in small jets and sensationalized by unknowing news reporters. There is a ton of waste, no pun intended, in our government but that was bad reporting. Go price one at the Gulfstream store. Small potatoes in a multimillion dollar jet.

David

[rintinglen]

...only 200,000 more rounds and you will have caught up with Chuck Taylor's Glock 17...providing he stops shooting it..

If he told me the sky was blue, I'd look out the window before believing Chuck Taylor. Back when he was editor of Soldier of Fortune he wrote an amazing review of the then New Dornaus and Dixon pistol, which included the line, "it's no jamma-matic,"

A very interesting comment, considering he had a pre-production prototype--WITH NO MAGAZINE. His entire article fully exemplified the old adage "damning with faint praise." I also recall him claiming to have reloaded his 40 Glock something like 127 times a day. Along with the hundreds of rounds a day he was putting through his M-17and the thousands he was putting through his 1911s, it was amazing the man had time to eat, much less sleep.

Of course, one does those sorts of things when one is a professional, eh.

[Lonegun1894]

I wont argue with the choice of a .357 Ruger. As for me and my shooting, it has slowed down quite a bit since I got out and aquired other responsibilities. But when I was still in the Service, and I still try to do this, just don't gte as much trigger time in, I was casting, reloading, and shooting, while a lot of my friends were out drinking and chasing women. There's been times I wondered if I shouldn't have been following their lead, but then again, I also dont have any child support payments, alimony bills, and multiple divorces like some of them, so I still call it time well spent at the bench and range.

[nicholst55]

That's why I prefer Wilson mags. They work and work well. I also have chip magsbut they just don't work as well.

I put Wilson followers and springs in my McCormick mags; they work now - something that they didn't do previously.

[David2011]

That's why I prefer Wilson mags. They work and work well. I also have chip magsbut they just don't work as well.

Roger that. At a steel plate match a buddy was having feeding problems with his Jam-O-Matic with an external extractor. I was shooting my STI Edge that day and offered him my Wilson 10 rd mags for the match. He was worried that they might cause a malfunction. I offered to buy dinner for him anywhere he chose if the gun jammed on my mags. I didn't have to buy dinner.

I don't know Bill Wilson from Adam but his mags are GOOD.

David

[Uncle45Auto]

My first 1911 was purchased from an old WWI vet who brought it home from the trenches of France. It was well used but still a fine shooter.

The pistol came with a bunch of WWI vintage mags (the "doughboy" liked having extra ammo over there). The 1917-1918 vintage mags were slightly gummy. After I took appart and cleaned the mags the old war horse never failed.

Now that WWI vintage Colt 1911's are so valuable, I don't think they are being used all that often. But from my experience, even WWI vintage M1911's are excellent handguns.

That's not to say the Glock is not a fine handgun. I have used the SF model 30 in .45 and it's a good pistol. While I can't tell you which pistol is the best for civilians, I would say that if the USMC is backing the 1911 I will not tell you they made a bad choice.

[Pappy_Miles]

Guys, you got to discount all the accrutruments and spare parts from the $22. That would probable bring it down to $1000. And that is a reasonable price

[Sgt Red Leg]

I believe that the $1875.00 amount INCLUDES spare parts AND factory support functions. When that is taken into consideration the individual price is not the $1875.00 mentioned. Would be interesting to know what the gun price actually is.

Glock vs Colt....lets get over it. We Colt people are NOT going to change the minds of the Glock shooters and they will not change ours. It is GOOD when one can use the firearm he wants and can shoot and is KNOWN to get the job done. The Marines have had enough experience w/the Colt to make their own decision.

[MtGun44]

There are 20+ companies building 1911s 101 years after it was first accepted by the Army.

Probably never catch on. :bigsmyl2:

Bill

[Multigunner]

Well I hope these new 1911 pistols will be manufactured by old school methods. Colt has had a few recalls due to failure of parts made using modern cost cutting methods.
It would be nice if they made some alteration to leave more steel at the rear of the chamber. Lack of casehead support where the feed ramp undercuts the chamber is the only flaw of the design. Thats a flaw more recent designs have had as well, including the Glock. Ammunition with cases designed to compensate and keeping pressures within reason should be a priority.
The original .45 ACP milspec ammo had a deep cannelure that prevented the bullet from being pushed back into the case. They should use that idea for recent production milspec ball as well.

[mortre]

It would be nice if they made some alteration to leave more steel at the rear of the chamber. Lack of casehead support where the feed ramp undercuts the chamber is the only flaw of the design. Thats a flaw more recent designs have had as well, including the Glock. Ammunition with cases designed to compensate and keeping pressures within reason should be a priority.

I understand where you are coming from, but I wouldn't call it a "flaw". Most "instantaneous disassemblies" I've read about seem to result in the unsupported portion of the case blowing the magazine out and grips off with relatively minor injuries to the shooter. Seems to me to be more of a safety valve, similar to the 3rd locking lug and gas relief ports built into the 98 Mauser. I've never bulged a case personally, and at least one load I've used is probably pushing +P. Though to be fair I generally load well below top end.

[MtGun44]

Not a flaw in the design. Only ifyou have massively overpressure ammo will anything
happen here. Anything remotely normal with normal brass and it will last until the
headstamp is literally hammered off of the brass from hitting the ejector so many
times. I have well over 200,000 rounds through 1911s.

Bill

[chboats]

The government paper work required and the testing required cause the price to go up. When the weight of the paper to be delivered is two or three times the weight of the equipment, it's about right.

Carl

[FergusonTO35]

The M9 is still the official sidearm of the armed forces but it seems that nobody wants it. The military has a plethora of secondary sidearms in addition to the 1911 they've had H&K 45's, Sig P228, Ruger P95, Glock 19, and probably a bunch of others. During the 1911 era thay had a bunch of others including S&W, Colt, and Ruger .38 Special revolvers, Colt .32 automatics. and even Baby Browning .25's. Mebbe they should just give up the idea of having an official sidearm...

[felix]

"Mebbe they should just give up the idea of having an official sidearm"... Agree! ... felix

[Lonegun1894]

I know we had a lot of guys who would purely by accident, i'm sure, drop a personal into their bags when deploying, at least I know mine was by accident every single time. A lot of 1911s, Glocks, some Rugers, a few HiPowers, and a lot of other assorted things. Even knew a few who were concerned about being more discreet about it and bought personal Berretta 92s because the personal hadn't been beat to death yet and would still hit where it was supposed to most of the time. In my case, I took a variety of things, but mostly .45s and .357s, but always had a 9 stashed just to be able to use the issue ammo if needed.

[GabbyM]

Does anyone here have some recent Navy time in? Wondering if the Navy ever stopped issuing the 1911 for standing watch on the ships.

I know they took M14’s off the ships for a very short time. Last I heard the M14s’ are on deck. Sailors on the USS Cole IIRC had M14’s. Just didn’t fire them in time. I’m a big fan of the 5.56mm and 9mm. However there are jobs where the big bullets work better. Especially when comparing 5.56mm to a 7.62mm rifle. Those little 22’s would not be ideal for knocking out a small boat motor as it’s heading into your ship.

When My brother was in the Navy during the seventies on an ASW Frigate. He stood watch with a 45 loaded with five rounds and two concussion grenades for dropping on scuba divers. Weight of the 45 ammo means little when you have a ship to carry it for you.

[Moonie]

When My brother was in the Navy during the seventies on an ASW Frigate. He stood watch with a 45 loaded with five rounds and two concussion grenades for dropping on scuba divers. Weight of the 45 ammo means little when you have a ship to carry it for you.

I need new mags, I can't get 5 rounds and 2 grenades in ANY of my 1911 mags... :holysheep

[DCM]

I can get 6-10 rounds depending on the mag.

I just can't get any grenades oh well.

[Multigunner]

I understand where you are coming from, but I wouldn't call it a "flaw". Most "instantaneous disassemblies" I've read about seem to result in the unsupported portion of the case blowing the magazine out and grips off with relatively minor injuries to the shooter. Seems to me to be more of a safety valve, similar to the 3rd locking lug and gas relief ports built into the 98 Mauser. I've never bulged a case personally, and at least one load I've used is probably pushing +P. Though to be fair I generally load well below top end.

If the bullet gets pushed back into the case during the loading cycle that can often cause a rise in pressure sufficient to burst the case head.
Thats why I'd like to see all autoloader ammo revert to the original design with a deep cannelure at the point where the base of the bullet would rest.

I'm told that there were a few such incidents involving the Browning High Power and Supervel truncated cone bullet ammunition. I used Supervel in my High power almost exclusively and had no problems.

There were several incidents where Glocks kaboomed after an institution that issued these to their guards began unloading the pistols every night and loading the pistols each morning using the same top round over and over again. The bullets worked loose and got pushed back into the case.

PS
A friend witnessed an AD of a 1911 onboard his ship. The guard at one post was passing his sidearm to his relief when the pistol discharged killing the relief stone dead on the spot.
My friend said the bullet passed through the victim and left a sizeable dent on a hatch or bulkhead.
Much as I like autoloaders, revolvers with a passive safety feature are much safer. So long as the revolver is kept reasonably clean and lubed.

[MtGun44]

Very sorry for the dead man, but this is not an 'accident' it is pure incompetence.
If the idiot 'passing' the 1911 had not thumbed off the safety and gripped the gun normally
to depress the grip safety and PULLED the trigger, WHILE POINTING IT AT A PERSON
nobody would have been shot.

Folks that fear the 1911 in locked and cocked are mostly folks not familiar with the
design.

Bill

[aarolar]

Very sorry for the dead man, but this is not an 'accident' it is pure incompetence.
If the idiot 'passing' the 1911 had not thumbed off the safety and gripped the gun normally
to depress the grip safety and PULLED the trigger, WHILE POINTING IT AT A PERSON
nobody would have been shot.

Folks that fear the 1911 in locked and cocked are mostly folks not familiar with the
design.

Bill

Could not have said it better

[10-x]

Jeff Cooper was right, the 1911 is the best of the best.

[Mud Eagle]

PS
A friend witnessed an AD of a 1911 onboard his ship. The guard at one post was passing his sidearm to his relief when the pistol discharged killing the relief stone dead on the spot.
My friend said the bullet passed through the victim and left a sizeable dent on a hatch or bulkhead.
Much as I like autoloaders, revolvers with a passive safety feature are much safer. So long as the revolver is kept reasonably clean and lubed.

With the safety off, it still takes two deliberate switch actuations (grip safety pressed and trigger pulled) in order for a 1911 to discharge.

I fail to see how it can be much "safer" than that, outside of condition 3.

[aarolar]

Very very rarely is there ever an AD most of the time it is a ND. It takes too many things to line up for it to be a AD.

[prs]

For years I have suffered a terrible character flaw, never owned or used a 1911 pistol. Last year I vowed to change my evil ways and now I own a Ruger SR-1911 as of last Saturday. I feel much better. I also own a Glock 23 and see no shame or harm in it. After all, I do have two hands to fill.

prs

[Moonie]

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2023/img1211ul.jpg

[Multigunner]

Very sorry for the dead man, but this is not an 'accident' it is pure incompetence.
If the idiot 'passing' the 1911 had not thumbed off the safety and gripped the gun normally
to depress the grip safety and PULLED the trigger, WHILE POINTING IT AT A PERSON
nobody would have been shot.

Folks that fear the 1911 in locked and cocked are mostly folks not familiar with the
design.

Bill

While without further information I could not rule out a murder, but like the 60 or so ADs a Navy surgeon looked into during WW2 its just as likely that this particular 1911 was a worn out piece or rusted or gummed up clunker just as were most of those involved in the WW2 ADs. Poor weapons maintenance was just as likely the culprit.

Carry your piece however you desire. Personally I always carried my Remington Rand with hammer down and a round chambered. Same with my P-35.
Tests done by the Navy indicated that a 1911 with hammer down would have to be dropped from over six feet and land square on the muzzle in order to discharge. No other position resulted in a discharge no matter what height it was dropped from.
If the pistol could only discharge when striking muzzle first on a hard surface the bullet would be unlikely to endanger anyone.
A badly fitted over long firing pin could allow an AD under other circumstances. A too short firing pin would allow more movement to build momentum and increase possibility of a discharge.


PS
The 1911 has the half or quarter cock meant to stop the hammer fall if the full cock notch fails, but I've run across a number of handguns of various types which had the quarter cock notch position broken away, and the owner never knew it till I showed him the hammer and explained the purpose of that notch.

The Navy developed a firing pin lock safety in the late 20's, and this was used on some Gold Cup Colts, but not adopted for the general issue pistols.

So long as your 1911 is in good operating condition, and kept reasonably clean, an AD would be nearly impossible, but badly worn or broken parts may not be visible without detailed stripping and examination.

[MtGun44]

"badly worn parts".

I have several 1911s with over 100,000 rounds through them. No parts that affect safety
have ever worn noticably, let alone enough to actually cause a problem. I seriously doubt
that this is a real issue. Loose, sloppy, rusty, dirty - I'll believe that for sure. Worn to a
state of dangerousness? Not buying.

Bill

[Multigunner]

"badly worn parts".

I have several 1911s with over 100,000 rounds through them. No parts that affect safety
have ever worn noticably, let alone enough to actually cause a problem. I seriously doubt
that this is a real issue. Loose, sloppy, rusty, dirty - I'll believe that for sure. Worn to a
state of dangerousness? Not buying.

Bill

If so they would never have manufactured and stocked replacement parts.
Not every part will show noticable much less serious wear, but despite the best intentions not every part is as wear resistent as every other part even if made on the same line on the same day.
A pistol used only at the range or carried in an urban environment is unlikely to be subjected to the same amount of wear as a pistol used in the black volcanic sand of a pacific island, or the wind blown sands of North Africa, or the U S western deserts for that matter.

Making the assumption that the ol 1911 can't be worn out is exactly why an accident can happen.
Theres a list of simple inspections to determine if a part is worn, but to be certain its best to detail strip a new purchase of an old pistol and see for yourself.

No pistol ever made is totally immune to wear, and under certain conditions any pistol can be subjected to greater wear within a few hundred rounds as it would normally receive after tens of thousands of rounds.

Worn parts may not be an "issue" but making assumptions as to the condition of each and every example of any firearm can become an issue.

PS
I remember that the reissues of the WW1 style Colt 1911 were subject to a recall due to excessive wear or breakage of some parts.
With many 1911 pistols and parts for them being manufactured under wartime pressures by companies that had not previously manufactured firearms theres every possibility of one of these old warhorses having a defective part thats awaiting the most inopportune moment to fail.



West Hartford, CT - -(AmmoLand.com)- Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC has determined that the Slide Lock Safety and the Recoil Spring Guide Pad in certain Colt model pistols were not manufactured to Colt specifications and must be replaced.

All of these Colt models were sold after March 2007 and the range of serial numbers affected by this product recall is as follows:

1911 WWI Replica (O1911) From: 4597WMK To: 5414WMK
1918 WWI Replica (O1918) From: 1001WWI To: 3431WWI
New Agent (O7810D) From: GT01001 To: GT04505
Combat Elite (O8011XSE) From: CG10000E To: CG11293E
Defender (O7000D) From: DR33036 To: DR35948
Talo Night Defender (O7000NDF) From: NDF0001 To: NDF0400


Read more at Ammoland.com: http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/01/colt-1911-pistol-recall/#ixzz24EU7Qymp



Colt determined that the parts for the models listed above were of improper hardness, and could wear, bend or crack, causing safety issues or rendering the pistol inoperable. While there has been no reports of injuries or property damage, Colt advises owners to immediately stop using the affected firearms, and contact Colt to learn how to have the handguns repaired at no cost.


Gee a defective safety catch in a brand new gun made by the original manufacturer, who would have thunk it.


Also the tiedown strap on my Tanker holster was tight enough to depress the grip safety of my Remington Rand, which is one reason I choose not to carry cocked and locked.

[garym1a2]

I still say its very stupid to give a 1911 to 18 year olds and not expect these type of problem. Many are issued to non-shooter types with a very limited experance. They need a DA/sa type like the 92. Or a glock.

[Lonegun1894]

I dont see the 18 year olds as a problem. I have been using a 1911 since I was 13, and have never had a problem. This is with a kid who grew up shooting various guns though. IF the 18 y/o is taught how to use the pistol properly, the safety of it isn't even a factor in my mind. However, if they are given no training, and just handed one, then the 1911 is just as dangerous as any other weapon would be. I personally think my 1911 is a safer design than a Glock, or even a Beretta 92, since those two were brought up, but in the end, the basic premise with any weapon is that if you dont want a gun to fire, maintain it properly, handle it safely, and then, DONT PULL THE TRIGGER until you want it to send lead down range.

[MtGun44]

I own a WW2 surplus 1911, so I have experience with the wear - while I am sure that there
is some abnormal wear in tough, sandy environments, I still am having trouble with
the parts wearing out quickly. Even if the gun was heavily used in combat I would be quite
surprised if even 200 rds were fired in anger by most of them since they were last
ditch weapons, with rifles or carbines as primary weapons. My surplus 1911 is worn some
but absolutely 100% safe, and still box stock except for the sights which I updated.

In any case, the final cause of anyone getting shot is ALWAYS the error of pointing the
gun at a human that you do not intend to shoot. Regardless of all other issues, this is
never acceptable behavior and is not the fault of the gun, no matter how worn it may
have been.

Bill

[smokeywolf]

If you mess with fit & finish on a as issued 1911, just keep it for paper punching. If you intend to use it for defensive purposes, forget the accurizer bushings or trying to tighten up tolerances. Those clearances are there on purpose.

[Multigunner]

The 1911 was intended to be carried cocked and locked only when heading into battle, and only when carried in the issue flap holster.
Leaving the hammer back in anything other than a holster with full coverage of the hammer and rear of the slide invites foreign objects getting between hammer and firing pin. The hammer can also be damaged (in a fall for example) preventing firing.

With hammer back a 1911 pistol dropped on its muzzle is slightly more likely to go off than it would if the hammer were down. The extra travel allows greater momentum to the pin and the return spring is not in a preloaded condition.

A short stroke due to a weak cartridge can result in the half cock catching just enough that the half cock can fracture or even shear off, with damage to the sear as well, the fragments being knocked out when the slide is drawn back once more. A broken away half cock is not easily visible even with hammer back.

The 1911 has been and still is being used in the most hostile environments on the planet, so conditions leading to excessive wear are not to be dismissed lightly.

As the Colt recall demonstrates, even the OEM can ship a pistol with a poorly heat treated safety catch subject to breakage or premature wear.
The various clones of the 1911 have had their own issues over the years.

During WW2 and early in the Vietnam war there were reports of poorly refurbed 1911s being issued, and accidents blamed on the worn pistols as well as poor training.

A contract for all new manufacture 1911A1s is certainly a step in the right direction, and may prevent accidents or failures in combat that might occur if endlessly rebuilt clunkers were issued.
A holster that provides full protection of the hammer would make cocked and locked carry safe enough for combat conditions.
The modern repros of the tanker holster often use a strap that does not contact the grip safety.


If the standard safety catch were all that convenient they would not have a market for extended ambidexterous safeties. The bigger the safety catch the greater the possibility of it becoming dislodged in the holster, something I've seen happen even with the standard safety.
I've also fired 1911 pistols with widely varying spring tension on the grip safety, from next to no tension to so hard you had to really bear down to disengage it.
Dust, debris, or rust can jam a grip safety in the disengaged position.

As I said earlier its a matter of choice how anyone carrys their handgun.
Those who are 100% certain theres nothing out of the ordinary about the 1911 they carry can do as they please.

PS
From the 1914 Description and Rules of Management for the 1911 pistol , page 16 under "Important Points" line 2.
Printed in bold type.
"Do not carry the pistol in the holster with hammer cocked and safety lock on, except in an emergency."
In regular type
"if the pistol is so carried in the holster, cocked and with safety lock on, the butt of the pistol should be rotated away from the body when withdrawing the pistol from the holster, in order to avoid displacing the safety lock."

Free download from the Internet Archive.
http://archive.org/download/descriptionofaut00unitrich/descriptionofaut00unitrich_bw.pdf

[MtGun44]

Wartime guns may have been out of spec, no doubt.

My personal 1911s have the safety properly contoured to give a firm, click on and click
off for the thumb safety and the leaf for the grip safety is kept set for a strong return
on that safety device, too. I have seen a few over the years with undesirably light
force required to disengage the thumb safety. This is a manufacturing tolerance
issue, not a design issue. If the thumb safety disengages easily, it needs to be
repaired, not a difficult task for a good smith.

It is a free world, do what you want with your 1911s. I have fired hundreds of thousands of
rounds from 1911s from a holster in competitions, and observed literally millions of rounds
fired. I observed ONE injury, due to the shooter disengaging the thumb safety, gripping the
gun to disengage the grip safety, and pulling the trigger before clearing the holster. He
was in violation of holster safety rules which require a covered trigger guard to prevent this
human error. The gun did not malfunction, the shooter did - as usual. This is during
32 years of competition and many hundreds of matches, with at least two stages per
match.

IME, the 1911 platform, in good mechanical condition (as designed) with a proper holster
which covers the trigger guard and a modicum of training can be carried in Condition 1 with
perfect safety. In fact, I am carrying one in Condition 1 at this moment.

We will agree to disagree on this one. It is good to be able to disagree without becoming
disagreeable.

Bill

[Multigunner]

and the leaf for the grip safety is kept set for a strong return
on that safety device, too.
Main reason I stopped carrying a 1911 is because injuries left very little flesh at the web between thumb and fore finger of my right hand. Theres a thickened ropy tendon there but no supporting tissue.
I found I still have the problem of depressing the grip safety on my FN 1922, but don't wish to modify it.



IME, the 1911 platform, in good mechanical condition (as designed) with a proper holster
which covers the trigger guard and a modicum of training can be carried in Condition 1 with
perfect safety. In fact, I am carrying one in Condition 1 at this moment.

We will agree to disagree on this one. It is good to be able to disagree without becoming
disagreeable.

Bill

The points I was trying to make, if every thing is in proper working condition, and the pistol has not been exposed to mud, blood, or sand, and kept reasonably clean and well lubed, and the holster designed to protect the hammer area, theres nothing inherrently wrong with cocked and locked carry.

I prepare for worst case scenario, where anything that can go wrong probably will sooner or later.

I've been considering trading my Model 59 off for a friend's Ballester Molina which is very much like the 1911, and uses the same magazines, but doesn't have the grip safety.
I can't see altering a stock 1911 by weakening the grip safety spring or pinning it down as some have done. One should avoid making alterations to safety devices unless necessary.

PS
While a very different action type (striker fired with false hammer) I ran across a Savage pocket .32 with a very hazardous safety issue. When the grip frame rails spread enough to make slide to frame fit a very loose sloppy fit ,a pull on the trigger with safety engaged won't fire the piece but once the trigger has been depressed disengaging the safety can cause the pistol to fire without any further pressure on the trigger.
That pistol was brought to me for refinishing by a young man who's brother had been found shot dead, an apparent suicide. I did not discover this until much later. I don't know if it was the pistol found at the scene, if it was the death may not have been a suicide at all, though there was motivation and other evidence that pointed to suicide.