Galling

[saguaro]

What exactly is galling and how do you prevent it? Is it the smear of lead on the top of the mold block or actually scoring of the block?

Just don't want to ruin a good mold.

Saguaro

[btroj]

Scoring of the block. Happens mostly with AL moulds.

Use a proper sprue plate lube and it won't ever happen. Contact Randyrat and get some Ziplube

[blikseme300]

I use synthetic 2-cycle lube applied with a syringe and needle. Very little needed and is cheap.


Bliksem
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[Iron Mike Golf]

You also need to eyeball the cutting edges of the sprue plate (edges of the holes) and the outer edges of the sprue plate. Use magnification and make sure there's no burrs.

[dromia]

Also check the sprue plate screw tension and that the sprue plate and top of the mould are perfectly flat, especially on Lee moulds.

As has been said lube to avoid galling, synthetic two stroke oil seems to be the best. Works as good for me as Bullplate used to.

[WHITETAIL]

+1 on checking your spru cutter.:holysheep

[44man]

Yep, I round off and polish all outer edges and just wipe the whole plate over fine 400 paper to make sure no burrs are at the cuttiing edge.
Lead buildup will also gall aluminum so keep the top of the mold and plate clean and lubed.
I have seen iron molds galled too.

[Whizzer]

I know this is an old thread, but I have a question that fits the Thread Title. Does the aluminum on a Lee mold actually get hot enough to turn "soft"...at our temps...to contribute to galling? The tops of my Lee molds have some fine markings, but the quality of the boolit bases seem to be OKAY. And you can't detect anything with your fingernail on the top of the mold blocks.

I am a beginner, but I feel I'm always walking a tightrope between too hot (frosty boolits) and too cool (wrinkles and/or poor fill out of the driving bands) but only with my Lee molds. I have only 1 (one) steel mold, but that is soooooo much easier to cast with than my Lees. The Lees seem to like a hotter pour (or a hotter mold temp---not sure which) than my solitary steel mold, and I don't want to gall the Lees.

Thanks for your help,
Stan

EDIT: I just re-read this post and I want to point out that I'm not trashing Lee molds...AT ALL. My technique is what is in question, and I know that.

[44man]

No, they don't get soft but the aluminum they use is soft to start with. A lead bump stuck to the bottom of the plate can score the mold.
Most marks are from the plate not being smooth at the edges and most are not in line with the cavities unless there was a burr at the cutting edges.

[cs86]

I didn't know that I needed to lube the mold when I started casting a few on a new lee mold. For learning purposes is part of the reason I started with a Lee mold. My mold is galled and I'm wondering...as long as I start and continue to lubricate, will it be fine or what happens if you gall it to much? What can be used to buff out the galling on aluminum?

[fcvan]

I had a buddy borrow a mold many years ago and he thrashed it. I was badly galled and banged up. To his credit, he offered to replace the mold, even ordered the replacement. Well, I gave him some more casting lessons and also showed him how to fix the damage.

The corners of the grooves on each mold half needed the dings knocked out which was easy enough to do, I worked it over carefully with a small fine file. Once the halves mated up properly without daylight I worked on the top. The sprue plate was removed and checked for warping and it was fine. The tops of the mold blocks looked like heck with smeared lead and galling. I heated the mold blocks to where the lead was easier to wipe off/scrape off with a wooden paint stick. Nowadays, I use wooden chopsticks from the Chinese restaurant. I put some 600 sand paper on a flat surface and carefully lapped the top down smoothly using slight pressure, a figure 8 pattern, and rotation 90 degrees every 4 or 5 passes. In no time, the tops of the mold halves were smooth and good to go.

That was 27 years ago and I'm still using that mold. I didn't learn about 2-cycle oil as a mold lube until I joined this site. I had used boolit lube or paraffin on the locator pins and mold grooves for many years, and only a slight amount on the sprue plate/mold block. Yes, every once in a while I screwed up and got too much and had to clean the mold. Hot water and Dawn dish washing soap works great with a toothbrush. From now on it will be 2-cycle oil and the wooden chopstick as an applicator/scraper.

That old Lee mold has cast over 500k boolits since 1986. It still looks as badly as it did after my buddy borrowed it but casts as good as ever. Its a Lee 356-125 2R that drops .3585 and weighs 126 with range scrap. That has been my main boolit for .38/9mm with the majority launched from a S&W M13. I try to keep a coffee can full of those molded up at all times, ready and waiting for lube and seating.

[454PB]

With all moulds, and especially aluminum moulds, it's important to control the temperature. I've found the best way for me is to run the alloy around 700 to 750 degrees, which will eventually produce boolit frosting, and then cool the mould if the sprue is taking too long to "set". That could be done by casting more slowly, but using a wet sponge or towel works just as well, and doesn't slow down the progress. Another way is to cast with two moulds at once, rotating between them.

When I began casting over 40 years ago, I read that you could warp a mould by cooling it on a wet sponge, but that is untrue.

[cs86]

How often are you guys re-applying 2-cycle lube when casting? does it burn off at all or just work its way off after so many casts? My concern is the sprue plate and the aluminum galling I've caused.

[detox]

That old Lee mold has cast over 500k boolits since 1986. It still looks as badly as it did after my buddy borrowed it but casts as good as ever. Its a Lee 356-125 2R that drops .3585 and weighs 126 with range scrap. That has been my main boolit for .38/9mm with the majority launched from a S&W M13. I try to keep a coffee can full of those molded up at all times, ready and waiting for lube and seating.

Lee changed their alignment pin design to a two pin design and these have been a nightmare for me. The alignment pins on my two cavity 230grain .452 mold have receeded causing mold halves not to line up. Resulting in terrible out of round cast bullets. I have to close mold on flat surface and visually check to see if mold is square before I cast my next bullet. I have tapped hole pins back in place using rubber hammer and brass punch, but hole pins will receed again after just a couple of cast. Maybe (i do not think so) i damaged this mold somehow, but i treat it no differently than my better quality iron molds.

[.22-10-45]

I have seen older Ideal/Lyman moulds worn badly by galling . I always chamfer edges of sprue cutter & using 350 to 400 wet-dry paper on flat surface, using figure 8 pattern smooth bottom of plate flat. H.M. Pope recommended touching sprue pivot with tiny bit of beeswax now and then.

[44man]

Lee changed their alignment pin design to a two pin design and these have been a nightmare for me. The alignment pins on my two cavity 230grain .452 mold have receeded causing mold halves not to line up. Resulting in terrible out of round cast bullets. I have to close mold on flat surface and visually check to see if mold is square before I cast my next bullet. I have tapped hole pins back in place using rubber hammer and brass punch, but hole pins will receed again after just a couple of cast. Maybe (i do not think so) i damaged this mold somehow, but i treat it no differently than my better quality iron molds.
Punch out the pins and squeeze the back half in a vise to make them out of round a little, punch them back in and they should hold.

[44man]

How often are you guys re-applying 2-cycle lube when casting? does it burn off at all or just work its way off after so many casts? My concern is the sprue plate and the aluminum galling I've caused.
It does last a while but eventually burns away. I touch wax to the plate screw to keep it lubed. Oil is not the best in any case and my molds can run dry under the plate. I mill my plates and mold tops and leave the mill marks. Micro fine graphite will stay in the tiny grooves. I love Rapine Mold Prep but Ray retired.
The key is to NEVER cut molten lead and the glove thing to speed casting does not fit my casting process. I let the sprue get hard.
Lead buildup on the mold or plate is 100% a NO-NO!
What ruins a mold is speed casting and slamming the blocks together.

[detox]

Punch out the pins and squeeze the back half in a vise to make them out of round a little, punch them back in and they should hold.

Thats a good idea.

Maybe I could tap the back side of hole and use an allen set screw to prevent pin from receeding

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would like to interject a few fine points.

First; Lead transfer to a mold is NOT "Galling" it is lead transfer. It does look similar to galling however it is still lead transfer and not "galling" per se`.

Galling is when two parts, usually made from the same or similar material are rubbed together with no lubrication. Due to friction, the surface material eventually rolls into little balls and transfers to its mating piece.

A good example of this is torquing a stainless steel nut onto a stainless bolt. If you do not use some kind of lubricant or "anti-sieze" the parts will gall. You will find all about this when you try to separate them. Stainless is especially prone to galling due to the nickle content of the material. You always use anti-sieze of some kind on stainless bolts if you want to get them apart. The alternative is twisting them off or cutting them, cuz they won't unthread if they are galled. Once galled the part continues to gall no mater which way you turn it.

What happens to aluminum blocks is more under the heading of "Scoring" than "Galling."

On another note:

The method of stoning the top of the mould back to flat by using a figure eight pattern is correct and doing the bottom of the sprue plate is the way to eliminate burrs on it as well. Wet or dry sand paper stuck to a piece of glass or some other "flat surface" with WD 40 ( called "flat lapping") is a good way to do it. I have done many mould blocks both aluminum and steel this way and is part of bringing a new or new to you mould up to speed. People routinely throw good Lee moulds away because the top has a bunch of scoring when flat lapping will bring it right back to useful again.

The figure eight pattern is critical as rubbing two pieces together in a fig 8 motion generates a perfectly flat surface. This is how granite surface plates are made.

Using a W pattern generates a parabolic form and is used to make telescope mirrors. There are other patterns to generate other forms as well.

Just some things to ponder.

Randy

[BIGRED]

Hello from South Florida 1st post,
you guys have given me a wealth of knowledge in the past week. i do not have anyone i know to help in my casting adventures so i turn to your vast collective knowledge for help. i just started casting a few days ago and my lee 200gr TL 2 cavity mold is scoring on top. i followed the instructions on how to prep the mold, after about 80 drops the sprue plate got difficult to move. i thought my lead was too hard but it wasn't that.i admit it was from going to fast and smearing the lead (learned that from this site). i keep reading about lubing certain points of the mould and i did it last night and it helped. i also sanded down the top of mould with 600 grit paper and used a graphite pencil to coat the entire top of mould, it helped. but after 50-60 drops it started scoring again. i have checked the sprue plate and sanded it flat also, i don't want to ruin the mold but have no idea how to prevent this scoring.
my questions are,
1. where and how much of this oil/lube/grease do i put on the mould and sprue pivot screw.
2. what tension should the sprue plate screw be at?
3 how often do i need to reapply grease/lube/oil to mould.
Thanks

[BIGRED]

WOW..... surprised no one had any helpful ideas for me in 20 hours....... well back to the internet maybe i can figure it out.

[cs86]

Welcome to the forum. I was hoping some others would respond to your questions. I'm a bit new myself but I will try and answer a few. The best way to learn is to start doing it.


1. where and how much of this oil/lube/grease do i put on the mould and sprue pivot screw.

I've heard hitting the pivot points, aligning pins and a little under the sprue plate. It doesn't take much. To much will slide into the cavity of the mold. I just bought some 2 cycle oil and plan to try it which sounds highly recommended. Others have also recommended anti seize.


2. what tension should the sprue plate screw be at?

To much tension I think could cause the plate to drag hard. making it more difficult to maneuver and potentially score the mold. If its to light I'm not sure but I'm guessing lead could flow under the plate.


3 how often do i need to reapply grease/lube/oil to mould.

I've wondered the same question. Until I get to casting more at a time, most of the things you ask I think will become apparent once doing it. People are pretty quick to respond on this sight. I would probably do a search for questions to start with. If you can't find an answer post a new thread for everyone to see the Original Post.

Again, Welcome and enjoy!

[BIGRED]

thanks CS. i just finished sanding down the top of the mold with 600 grit wet paper, it is clean and as smooth as a babies butt. i am now working on the sprue plate with 600 grit... 30 minutes into the sprue plate and it is starting to show some promise. another 30 min and i should have it licked. I really want to know about the oiling, i feel this is really a key piece of the puzzle.

[turmech]

I will try to answer your questions by telling you what I do. I have asked sort of the same questions about lubing the mold in the past and it seems most do what works for them so there does not seem to be a direct answer.

I lube my new or my new to me molds by initially getting them hot on a hot plate or the edge of the casting pot. Ideally I want the first pour to produce complete fill out. I am not really worried by wrinkles but I want the cavity full so that when I lube the top of the blocks no lube get into the cavities. I apply lube (I have used both zip lube and bull plate) with a Q tip to the top of the blocks, sprue plate and sprue plate pivot. I wipe off the excess with the clean end of the Q tip. I then open the blocks and apply it to the alinement points.

I reapply to the mold block tops and spruce plates fairly often again always with the cavities full. I probably due it more often then I need to. I don't really have a set time that I reapply it is kind of like when the thought crosses my mind. I would guess it is something like I re lube every 20 to 30 fills of the mold.

A far as tension of the screw I would suspect there is no set answer and many have there own criteria. For me I want the sprue plate to wing freely but not swing open by gravity. I would want little or no light to be visible between the sprue plate and mold blocks.

[BIGRED]

good idea about only lubing with a bullet in the mold. if you do it that frequently and have no issues than i will try that. i am ok with lubing it as often as necessary, i am not in a hurry. when you do it after 20-30 drops are you doing it because something is slowing down / binding/ etc.. or just as a precaution?

Thanks again for the help. Still sanding sprue plate... almost done.

[Iron Mike Golf]

I don't use Lee molds, so some of what I post may not apply or work.

1. First, going to the title of the thread, what we are talking about is not "galling". Galling is wear caused by adhesion (think cold welding) of two metal surfaces. For that to happen, the metals must be the same or nearly the same. The bonding happens at the molecular level. I don't think you get that sort of thing with sprue plates and molds.

2. So what we do get is abrasive wear. This is most often caused by burrs on the sprue plate. The places to check for this are the outside edges of the plate and the edges of the sprue holes. Use magnification when inspecting. The plates are usually punched out with a die and that gives a turned down edge. The holes are drilled, and drills can chatter.

3. When you sand the plate, don't just use sandpaper and your fingers. Use a sturdy, flat surface (1/4 inch plate glass for example). The sprue plate need and mold block tops need to be flat.

4. I run my sprue plates with just enough tension to hold the plate in place against gravity when the mold is turned on its side. I do have one mold that I run loose enough that it will swing free when the mold is turned sideways. That one is like that because if I snug it any tighter, the far end of the plate lifts a bit.

5. You are not really lubing the sprue plate and mold block top surface to make things move easier. You are putting a film on it them fight lead sticking to the metal. Lead smear will make things harder to move. Use lube very sparingly. Lube will migrate everywhere when things get up to temp. You use one drop on a Q-tip to do a sprue plate. The you wipe it off with a dry Q-tip. Repeat for the mold block. Stay a couple of millimeters away from the edge of the cavities. Do the same for the sprue plate (edge of where the cavity meets the plate, not just a few mm from the sprue hole). You absolutely want to prevent lube from migrating into any cavities.

6. When casting, I check the bottom of the sprue plate and mold blocks for smears before opening the mold. I have some molds I have to run fast and hot and smears are a fact of life. I wipe them off immediately with a gloved fingertip, then open the mold.

7. If the sprue plate starts to bind, I stop casting and let the mold cool. Then I take it apart and address the lead buildup that is making it bind. It is usually a spot close to the sprue plate hinge screw that I couldn't get to with my fingertip.

8. Do check and adjust tensions when the mold is up to casting temp. Dimensions change with heat.

9. I usually cast several hundred at a time (a 10 lb pot worth), then recharge the pot. I'll usually cast under 500 in a session (up to several potfuls) and lube every 2 or 3 sessions.

[turmech]

I am not seeing any problems to cause me to do it that often and I would be interested to see what other do. I am most likely being overcautious but it has worked with out issues most of my molds look as good as new and most are the cheap 2 cavity LEE molds. I kind of don't want to find out how often to lube the hard way.

When I cast I am pacing myself and cooling the mold with a damp rag on the work table anyway to control the temperature. I just add lubing the mold to my rhythm. I am most times just doing it with the same Q tip with the residual lube on it. When the residual is gone I dip just the corner of the Q tip in the lube. It does not take much

[BIGRED]

thanks guys, great info. well i just finished the mold top and sprue plate (1.5 hours). I used a piece of 1/4" aluminum plate as my base and taped the 600 grit sandpaper down to it and kept swapping out paper until i was done. Sprue plate looks 100 times better and is silky smooth. top of mold block is very smooth also. i also chamfered the holes on the sprue plate and it made them more uniform. work is slow right now so i did it at work, also used a microscope to verify quality of sanding. the visual quality of this mold out of box is crappy but with a little work they look alot better.
I see several people mention cooling the mold with a damp sponge or rag, i also read that this technique could warp the mold.
i am assuming this would apply to certain metals? i know the mold was under $20 but i don't want to hurt it in any way.

[felix]

Warping comes from not letting the blocks expand/contract evenly. It happens because something is binding them that does not heat-move in the same way, such as having tight screws, anywhere. ... felix

[454PB]

I have a different approach, and it seems not one that others share. I own 20 Lee moulds, and I never lubricate them. Yes, I did when I first started using them in about 1974, but I had nothing but problems. I learned that controlling the mould temperature and aligning the blocks as I closed them eliminated the need. It might take me a second longer to do this, but that time is recovered because I don't have to deal with contaminated cavities, lead buildup on the sprue plate and blocks, and cooked-on carbon on the mould.

[BIGRED]

what is your mold temperature? i am using a LEE 4-20 pot bottom pour. been using it for years making sinkers, i found setting number 7 the best thus far, but i don't know what the temp actually is. i need to invest in a casting thermometer.

[cs86]

There was a thread recently that had a poll on what the caster's temperature settings were that they prefered. It varies from person to person. starting point is probably 650F. You should get a thermometer to help keep consistent. Probably one of those things you don't have to have but would make life a lot easier. I'm not sure if a person could tell you the mold temp. I've seen most say that you can dip the end of the mold in the lead, and if the lead doesn't stick to the mold then you are pretty close to a good mold temp. The casted bullets help tell whether you are hot or cold. If you haven't had much for reading material the Lyman book is a good one for bullet casters.

[turmech]

Kind of like 2 questions there.

Mold temperature? For most of my molds(not all some are different) I try for a 3 to 5 second liq sprue puddle. This is where varying the casting speed and a wet rag on the table come in. This is my low tech way of knowing mold temp. You find what the mold likes and recreate it with the sprue puddle. Kind of like know how long it takes the sprue puddle to harden and then how that relates to being in the sweet spot between frosted and wrinkled

Alloy temperature? Ideally you would want it not much higher than the melt temperature of the alloy. I use the Lyman big dipper pot and it has no numbers on the dial. Most all of my casting is done in the last ¾ of dial.

I know it may be a sin to some but I have not gotten a casting thermometer. It is on the wish list but usually gets push back for a new mold, power, gun etc..

[BIGRED]

thanks guys, i have a nice infared laser thermometer i will try next cast. i have cast about 500 boolits so far and they are really nice. my biggest concern is i do not want to damage my molds, i am going to take it slow and address every issue as it comes up. just like reloading, it took me a little while to get the hang of it and now i am really good at it. Thanks everyone for your help is greatly appreciated.
Ron

[blackthorn]

Thanks to "Gearnasher" for this:---Start with your alloy temp set 100F degrees above the point that your alloy becomes fully liquid. Preheat your mould, either by resting it on the rim of the lead furnace, dipping the end in the molten alloy or get an old hot plate. You can put an old "Skill" saw blade over top of the coils on the hot plate to evenly distribute the heat. There are several old posts on this site that explain how to build a mould heater. Welcome and good luck!

[cs86]

If I'm understanding an infared thermometer...One problem I see with an infared thermometer is that you are pulling the temp from the top of the pot. With a regular thermometer you find the temp at the bottom of the pot. I think you said you have the bottom pour 4-20 pot. Just something to keep in mind.

[BIGRED]

infared thermometers don't give accurate readings on shiny / reflective surfaces, so i would have to hit the pot just above the liquid line. this should give me a "ballpark" temp of the liquid. pretty sure i need to turn heat up slightly more as the last batch of bullets i did had a clean brand new cold galvanizing look to them. other than the color they looked perfect and had no visible defects.

[turmech]

I have the infared thermometer and you may get results that work good for you, but I found mine almost useless for casting and smelting.

[454PB]

Look back at my first post for alloy temperatures. I own three Lee pots, and the numbers on the thermostat have no relation to actual alloy temperature. But, I do own an RCBS lead thermometer and an infrared temperature gun. I agree that the reflective surface makes reading the temperature difficult, but I've found that a COPPER penny floating on the surface quickly blackens and gives more stable readings. Don't use one of the newer zinc pennies!

As to mold temperature, you have that same reflective problem with aluminum moulds. I "shoot" the sprue cutter immediately after filling, and I've found the best temperature for me is 385 degrees. This will vary a little from mould to mould, but is a good baseline.

[John Boy]

my questions are,
1. where and how much of this oil/lube/grease do i put on the mould and sprue pivot screw.
2. what tension should the sprue plate screw be at?
3. how often do i need to reapply grease/lube/oil to mould.


1. NONE! A properly tuned mold needs no lubrication except the pins. Oil which is a hydro carbon will leave a residue as will bees wax. If you want or must use a lube for other than the pins, paraffin is an alkaline - lubes great and leaves no residue
2. Loosened sufficiently with no wiggle or day light so with handles in hand - flip the mold with your wrist and the sprue plate freely
3. I cast with over a 100 molds and use paraffin to lube the pins only - nothing else

To keep the plate from galling the mold tops - rub the bottom of the plate on a diamond stone and bevel the edges

[44man]

You will get wear marks on the mold top, just rubbing marks. No concern.
Galling is removal of metal or scratches and Yes, lead can scrape aluminum. Bullplate and oils are used to prevent lead sticking when cutting molten but it fails fast. Guys love to swing the plate on soft lead with a glove before the sprue sets.
Cast right and NOTHING needs to be on top of the blocks or under the plate.
No matter what you do, a tiny smear can pop up, remove it right away.

[williamwaco]

Yep, I round off and polish all outer edges and just wipe the whole plate over fine 400 paper to make sure no burrs are at the cuttiing edge.
Lead buildup will also gall aluminum so keep the top of the mold and plate clean and lubed.
I have seen iron molds galled too.


+1

Even if you can't see them the bottom of the sprue plate might have some burrs.

take it off the mold and polish it with 400-600 grit silicon carbide paper.

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