Lucky day... need crash course on .308

[Revolver]

Today I noticed a new gun shop, stopped in, open house... my boy grabbed a free hot dog while I checked things out. I signed up for the drawing and ended up winning a 308.

This is a bit interesting for a few reasons...
1. I've been wanting a bolt action rifle, all I had until now is a 22.
2. Been thinking about a 308 because I already have dies, brass, etc. for it that came with some other stuff I bought a long time ago.

Anyhow, just got home and I'm looking at my dies. I have never reloaded rifle before. It looks like a set of LEE's but it had some lee powder drop on it which I don't want to use.

In reference to the picture...

- I see the die on the left (LEE-308 WIN-B8) is obviously my decapper... and sizer?
- The one on the right (LEE-308 WIN-L7) is my seating die ... and crimper?
- The middle one is what's bugging me. The die body says LEE-RIFLE-H3, is this my expanding die? The part right above it I think has to do with the powder dropper that was threaded onto it, I think the part to the right of the dropper will replace the dropper? But what part does the expanding? Or am I missing something?
-What are the small parts on the top left and top right for?

I have loaded pistol quite a bit but am I bit lost here. Need a kick in the butt to get me in the right direction. I will be loading some j-words that I have on hand for the time being.

Thank You!

[Revolver]

Ok, did some more homework. Evidently the center die is just a generic charging die which I won't be using and evidently no expanding die is needed and no crimp, just neck tension?

I think this is what I have... http://leeprecision.com/collet-dies-308w.html

[geargnasher]

You are correct about the middle die, it's called a "rifle charging die" and it's meant to be used with the case-activated "autodisk" powder measure, not to be confused with the "universal charging die" meant to be used with the Lee "perfect powder measure". Both of these measures are for the turret and progressive presses, respectively. You won't need it for batch or single-stage loading.

You WILL need an expander die for cast boolits. Most people are going to pile on and tell you to get a Lyman M-type expander die or the Lee universal "expander" die which only bells the case, but the sizer you have is designed for smaller jacketed bullets and will leave the case neck way too small and tight for cast boolits even if you bellmouth it to get them started. I do not like the Lyman expander nor to I care for the Lee expander die for .30 caliber, or really ANY caliber. So, I highly recommend the RCBS dedicated expander for cast boolits, you'll need to buy it with the expander that's the right size for the boolits your gun prefers. The Lee sizing die has an expander in it too that expands the brass neck as the case is withdrawn from the die (it's part of the decapping rod), but it is most likely way too small for the boolits your gun will prefer. The RCBS expander die for cast boolits expands the neck to the size you need and bellmouths the case at the same time, you will need to carefully adust it to work. It operates on exactly the same concept as all the pistol expander/bellmouth dies do, so think of loading the .308 in the same terms as, say, .38 Special with cast boolits.

You'll need to resize the cases and deprime, reprime, expand/bellmouth in a separate die, charge powder, seat boolit, and crimp if desired. Even if you don't want or need a hard crimp, you still need to knock out enough of the bellmouth for the round to chamber, which won't be much if you don't overdo the expansion of the mouth.

That's the crash course. What you REALLY need to do is get yourself a copy of any of the big-name cast bullet handbooks (Lyman, RCBS, etc.) and read the how-to with all the pics. If you understand how to load jacketed rifle stuff (instructions in ANY of the regular reloading manuals which I'm sure you have, don't you?????) then all you need to do is read and understand that, and add the part about re-expanding the case neck and belling for the softer, larger cast boolits.

What the manuals might NOT tell you is how much expansion is needed. Here's a guideline: .0015", or a thousandth and a half. You want the case neck, AFTER it springs back from expansion, to be about a thousandth and a half to two thousandths smaller than the boolit size. So, if you are shooting .310" boolits (say), you'll probably need a .309" expander spud to leave the ID of the case neck about .3085" or so to give proper tension on the boolit without crushing it, distorting it, bending it, or swaging the driving bands undersized.

If you just bell the necks after sizing in the factory die (which will leave the ID about .306") and seat a .310" boolit into it, the boolit will end up being squeezed down quite a bit, perhaps under the rifle's groove dimension, and that will cause inaccuracy and leading.

All this depends on how hard the necks of the cases are that you're using, how soft the boolits are, and the particular sizer die you're using.

But basically all you need to make that stuff work is a dedicated, cast bullet expander die, again I can't say enough good things about the RCBS die and how well it works compared to all the others, especially the goofy, two-step, no flaring Lyman abortion that they sell for the purpose.

Gear

[dragon813gt]

Don't forget to measure the cases and trim to appropriate length after full length resizing. You'll also want a neck sizer only for subsequent reloads. Otherwise you will over work the case and shorten it's life.

I have one of the RCBS expanders that Gear was talking about. I haven't used it yet as I'm still waiting for a MiHec group buy to close and start production :)


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[Lead Freak]

Ok, so much for the reloading info, let's see a picture of the new thunder stick! :drinks:

[Cherokee]

In difference to Gear's opinion & experience, I have found the Lyman M dies to work great for my 30/30 and 30/06 cast bullet loads.

[Revolver]

Ok, so much for the reloading info, let's see a picture of the new thunder stick! :drinks:

It's nothing high end but i think it will suit me fine as a beginner with rifles. It is a Remington 770 w/Scope, gets mixed reviews. But the price was right!

It is just like this one but in 308... http://www.cabelas.com/product/Remington174-Model-7708482-RifleScope-Combo/706365.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3D770%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26x%3D0%26y%3D0&Ntt=770&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products

[Mk42gunner]

Free is almost always good. The .308 is pretty easy to get shooting well also.

After you shoot those j thingies through it, slug the barrel and get an idea of what sizing die and mold you want to try first.

Robert

[Danderdude]

Gear knows his stuff, but, BUT, I have done a lot of testing with the Lee Universal Expander http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/8145

Yes, all it does is bell the mouth a little bit to help the boolit get started, but if you are using GC'd boolits, the .001-.002" difference in neck diameter is taken care of by the gas check. I pulled a lot of dummy boolits from .225 (.223 Rem) to .459 (.45-70) and not one had swaged down below the original sized diameter.

I am also a fan of the Lee Rifle-style Factory Crimp Dies.

[Revolver]

Thanks for all the information, I learned a lot. Also broke out the books and did some reading on rifle reloading.

At this point I deprimed and sized my cases last night. Will be loading them up this morning and trying it out. I guess with what I have on hand I can't do any kind of crimping. Sounds like I will need some new dies to work with boolits anyhow but in the meantime I'll use these jwords.

I already have a Lyman 311410 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/767788/lyman-2-cavity-bullet-mold-311410-30-carbine-762x39mm-309-312-diameter-130-grain-pointed-tip) mold for my 7.62x39, I'm wondering if that boolit is good for the 308 too?

[Revolver]

Is this alright? Looks like the bullet is seated a bit past the shoulder. I made it the same OAL as a factory round.

Then there is the flat point one on the right, it seems to be quite deep.

[dragon813gt]

Did you check case length? Only reason I ask is because the vast majority of once fired that I pick up are beyond max. I'd say maybe 25% fall between and I've never had any that are below the minimum. I hate trimming but it's necessary with 308.


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[Revolver]

Yes, most of the cases were exactly 2.015, some were a few thousanths shorter.


Did you check case length? Only reason I ask is because the vast majority of once fired that I pick up are beyond max. I'd say maybe 25% fall between and I've never had any that are below the minimum. I hate trimming but it's necessary with 308.


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[atr]

make a dummy round with bullet (no primer/powder) and make sure it cycles throught the action before you go into "mass" production.

[Revolver]

Well, I never got to try it. The bolt action was very sticky and kept jamming so I was trying to figure that out when the handle snapped clean off. Evidently it is just held on with glue. I don't feel so bad now that I Googled it and found the sticky bolt -and- the broken handle are both very common with this model. :shock:

[geargnasher]

Remember to seat those jacketed bullets off the lands, you don't want them touching like you do with cast boolits due to pressure excursions. The harder, jacketed bullets need a little "jump" or head start before engraving. Ten thousandths jump is plenty.

If you broke the bolt handle getting the action open, something is probably way wrong in addition to a possible design flaw with the gun.

My advice about the expanders, in case you didn't notice, was SPECIFICALLY for use with CAST BOOLITS, you don't need to expand or bellmouth when using jacketed, just size, trim, chamfer, seat, and crimp.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Gear knows his stuff, but, BUT, I have done a lot of testing with the Lee Universal Expander http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/8145

Yes, all it does is bell the mouth a little bit to help the boolit get started, but if you are using GC'd boolits, the .001-.002" difference in neck diameter is taken care of by the gas check. I pulled a lot of dummy boolits from .225 (.223 Rem) to .459 (.45-70) and not one had swaged down below the original sized diameter.

I am also a fan of the Lee Rifle-style Factory Crimp Dies.

Usually it's a lot more than a thousanth or two. Most .30-caliber sizer dies leave the case neck OD at around .3065-.307". If you're trying to cram a .311" boolit in there something is going to get mashed. Gas checks make lousy expanders. But if you're using smaller cast boolits or your dies are leaving the case necks large enough to not crush the boolit, no worries except for distorting the shoulders and creating runout with the excessive force you may have to apply to get the boolit to seat. Again, if your methods and tooling produce good ammo, use what works, but most of the time you'll need a real expander and a sizing die that is modified to not oversize the case necks to achieve the best results.

A lot of what I say and recommend is based on techniques that achieve the best accuracy FOR ME, not what's easiest, cheapest, or most common. People have been jamming oversized boolits in undersized case necks for a hundred years and doing just fine, but then again most people are happy with 3" groups at 100 yards at 1600 FPS with cast, too. It all depends on what you want to achieve and what works best for you. I do what I do because it works for me better than anything else I've tried.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

Well, I never got to try it. The bolt action was very sticky and kept jamming so I was trying to figure that out when the handle snapped clean off. Evidently it is just held on with glue. I don't feel so bad now that I Googled it and found the sticky bolt -and- the broken handle are both very common with this model. :shock:

So is the 770 basically a continuation of Remington's ill-fated 710?

I would take the rifle back to the store and see what they will do, before sending it to Remington.

Robert

[Revolver]

Well, FWIW The guns shops distributor, Davidson, gave me a lifetime warranty on the gun. If it breaks they will replace it, if none are available they will repair it or replace with something else their discretion if I take it to a Davidson retailer of which there are 8 within 25 miles of my house.

I emailed the gun shop owner, from what I have seen so far he seems to be a really stand up guy, I like him. He was apologetic and replied...

"I definitely want to take care of this for you. I would like to swap the bolt out with one I have in the store. I will then deal with the manufacturer to get it replaced."

So, krap happens, it's a free gun, hopefully it will work ok with a new bolt.

[waksupi]

If you swap bolts, be sure they check the headspace.

[Revolver]

If you swap bolts, be sure they check the headspace.

Can you elaborate for me? Thank you.

[RayinNH]

Revolver, the other pieces you asked about, the thing with the hex shank and threaded end are part of the case trimming setup. A special shell holder screws onto the threaded end and a trimming pilot cuts the case to length.
The funnel like thing with the slit is the inside/outside chamfer too.l Both pieces are Lee products...Ray

[Danderdude]

Can you elaborate for me? Thank you.

Headspace is a reference distance between two points in a closed and locked gun chamber. If a case is too long, the bolt should not be able to lock. If it is too short, the case can slide back and forth in the chamber with the bolt closed. Of course neither are safe or conducive to accuracy. Most taper and straight walled handgun cartridges headspace on the case mouth, which is why you can't roll crimp them. Rimmed cartridges headspace on the rim itself. .308 Win and bottleneck rifle cartridges headspace on the shoulder.

Headspace is adjusted for the gun at the factory and usually never needs to be rechecked except when rebarreling or changing out the bolt.


Usually it's a lot more than a thousanth or two. Most .30-caliber sizer dies leave the case neck OD at around .3065-.307". If you're trying to cram a .311" boolit in there something is going to get mashed.

Not if you're using the right expander on the decap rod in the first place. Lee sells somewhat interchangable stems for $3 that fit in their collet or FL dies, or the universal decapper. RCBS is kind enough to include a .308" and .311" expander ball with their 7.62x39 dies. The .311" actually runs the neck out to .3105 and the .312" gas checked boolit does the rest while maintaining the perfect amount of neck tension: enough to secure it but not so much that the bullet is swaged down.

Lee .310 for 7.62x39 that will work in a universal decapper:
http://leeprecision.com/ez-x-exp-7.62x39.310.html

One made for .303 Brit. You'd have to call and ask what it actually measures, but I would guess .312" - .314"
http://leeprecision.com/ez-x-exp-303-b.html

[Revolver]

Just reporting back, Thursday evening I got the bolt replaced and got to shoot it today. The action is a little sticky but the gun functions fine. I fired off about 10 shots without any problems and got the scope dialed in pretty close.

I'm in business, I think I like the .308 cartridge.

[bbqncigars]

FWIW, you do NOT have to trim .308 brass more than once if you use an RCBS X die. I've got more than a dozen loads on milsurp brass through my gas battle rifles with no problems. The brass is full length resized and loaded to duplicate milspec ammo.

[Larry Gibson]

+ another on RCBS X dies if you FL size. If an X Die is available it is the best way to FL size as no trimming is needed and case life is much longer, especially in gas guns.

Larry Gibson