Marlin 45-70 small problem

[DanM]

A buddy brought over his 45-70 marlin the other day and we were shooting my loads that I have made up for my H&RBC. Pretty normal loads with the 405 Lee
FN over 26gr 2400 topped with PSB fill. Crimped into the crimp groove supplied on the boolit. What started happening was the cartridge lifter was somehow getting under the rim of the next cartridge in the mag and locking things up. Very annoying, and after removing the lever I was able to shift things around and empty the rifle. Somehow the next cart is slipping too far back and riding over the lifter. He had never shot this rifle and had bought it used. We gave up shooting it for now. Is this likely to be a difficult fix? What do yall think? BTW, I did not look to see which model this rifle is, but it has a round bolt like a 336. Thanks....DanM

[45 2.1]

That load is over book maximum for the 1895 / 1886 rifles into lower Ruger #1 territory even without the PSB pressure raising properties................................ MAYBE you should rethink its use in a breakopen rifle and try a lighter load in your friends. Sounds much like a recoil induced jam.

[DanM]

I do try to use caution in my loading, did not realize that this could be too strong a load. Only gives 1600fps in my BC, and recoil is moderate. Do not even have to resize the cases when reloading. Just flair the mouth and seat a new boolit. But, from what you are saying, excess recoil is likely to jump the next case rim up over the lifter, and nothing is wrong with the rifle?

[45 2.1]

I do try to use caution in my loading, did not realize that this could be too strong a load. Only gives 1600fps in my BC, and recoil is moderate. Do not even have to resize the cases when reloading. Just flair the mouth and seat a new boolit. But, from what you are saying, excess recoil is likely to jump the next case rim up over the lifter, and nothing is wrong with the rifle?

Most manuals seperate the loading levels into three strengths. Get yourself a good one that does so and follow it. All 4570 case rims are not equal, some have the rear edge as a radius and it probably would do this easier.

[BABore]

Why would a load of 26.0 grains of 2400 powder be excessive in a 40kpsi capable Marlin action? Although the Lyman Cast Bullet manual does not list the Lee 405 gr FP, it does list the Lyman 457193, 420 grain boolit. A max charge of 25.7 grains of 2400, with 1/2 grain of Dacron buffer, is listed at 1,490 fps and 27.5 kpsi using a 2.55" OAL. Quickload data, using the Lee 405 gr FP, at 2.55" OAL, and 26.0 grains of 2400 gives 1,618 fps and 24.3kpsi with a 32 inch BC bbl. The PSB filler is not taken into account here.

[45 2.1]

Why would a load of 26.0 grains of 2400 powder be excessive in a 40kpsi capable Marlin action? Although the Lyman Cast Bullet manual does not list the Lee 405 gr FP, it does list the Lyman 457193, 420 grain boolit. A max charge of 25.7 grains of 2400, with 1/2 grain of Dacron buffer, is listed at 1,490 fps and 27.5 kpsi using a 2.55" OAL. The #47 manual also lists a Lyman 457643 400 gr. max at 24.6 gr. of 2400, data varies.... but the concern is that it is his load for a break open H&R (which has no 2400 data at that level). It is still over max for the levergun data also. It might be safe in the Marlin for a long time, but how long in a H&R? Quickload data, using the Lee 405 gr FP, at 2.55" OAL, and 26.0 grains of 2400 gives 1,618 fps and 24.3kpsi with a 32 inch BC bbl. The PSB filler is not taken into account here Now there is the kicker.......... PSB does raise pressure. How much is too much.

[btroj]

That load is something I would shoot in my Marlin, never in an HR break action.

I tend to like to err on the side of caution when loading. Can we be too safe?

[DanM]

Guys....I agree that the load is pushing the limits, and i will cut it back. Do you think it was warm enough to induce the problem we had with the rifle locking up? Should I just try a softer load and see how it does?

[btroj]

Sounds like the "marlin jam" reared it's head.
Google "marlin jam" and you will find sites with good info on how to identify it and fix it. My 32-20 was horrible this way. Once I corrected the problem it feeds like a champion.

It has to do with the carrier dropping too low and letting a cartridge begin to feed put of the magazine.

I also would say that you need to make sure all the screws on the action are tight, Marlons like to jam when a screw gets loose. Make sure the one on the front of the trigger plate is tight, that ones easy to over look.

[DanM]

btroj.....Thanks, here is what I found:http://marauder.homestead.com/files/marlin94fix.html

That does sound exactly like the problem....DanM

[400short]

Yes, this sounds like the classic marlin jam, or as the factory calls it, "letting in two". Marlinowners web site has info devoted to this issue. Check it out.

[btroj]

btroj.....Thanks, here is what I found:http://marauder.homestead.com/files/marlin94fix.html

That does sound exactly like the problem....DanM

That is exactly what you want to do. I used a small a small, thin shim soldered to the bottom of the carrier on my 32-20 and no more jams.

[DanM]

Well, it seems that this problem was nothing like what we thought. I mentioned that my buddy bought this rifle used. He took it to a gunsmith, and the 'smith said that the screw(s) holding the mag tube and sling swivel had been way overtightened. this caused a bow in the tube and messed with the feeding. I don't really understand, but the rifle is working fine now. He only charged $35 for the fix, so my buddy is happy now....DanM

[softpoint]

Guys....I agree that the load is pushing the limits, and i will cut it back. Do you think it was warm enough to induce the problem we had with the rifle locking up? Should I just try a softer load and see how it does?

This has nothing to do with the rifle jamming, but the RCBS cast bullet manual lists their 500 FN bullet at a nominal weight of 507 grains with a start load of 25 grains and a top load of 27 grains of 2400 for the Marlin 1895. It alarmed me when I read the first few posts here because just yesterday I tried a load at 27 grains with the 500 FN in my GBL 1895. And this is with a 500+ grain bullet, not a 405 (420) I don't see your load as excessive, but if it's just a target load, or even for deer and similar game, you could cut it back a bit. Incidentally, my GBL only shot it "ok", other loads with slower powders have done better in this rifle.

[jh45gun]

I shoot 24 grains of 2400 in my Marlin with the Lee 405 grain hollow base bullet with no problems and no signs of any pressure. BUT I do not use a filler and there is absolutely NO REASON to use a filler with 2400. NONE!

[white eagle]

next question why use pitola powder in a rifle case???
use a rifle powder no filler plenty of reloading data ....
if ya want to plink and shoot cheap get yourself a 22 rf
that case could easily swallow a double charge of that powder and that would not be good
best o luck

[softpoint]

next question why use pitola powder in a rifle case???
use a rifle powder no filler plenty of reloading data ....
if ya want to plink and shoot cheap get yourself a 22 rf
that case could easily swallow a double charge of that powder and that would not be good
best o luck

I have found that the slower powders give better accuracy in my rifles, too. I've tried a lot of different powders in 45/70, and my most used ones are 3031, 4759, RL7, 5744. While 5744 and 4759 are pretty fast powders, they aren't as fast as 2400 and Unique. You are correct, It would be easy to double the pistol powders in the 45/70. You can hardly see 10 to 12 grains of Unique in there with a flashlight!

[jh45gun]

next question why use pitola powder in a rifle case???
use a rifle powder no filler plenty of reloading data ....
if ya want to plink and shoot cheap get yourself a 22 rf
that case could easily swallow a double charge of that powder and that would not be good
best o luck

I use 2400 because it works so well in all my rifle cast loads from 30.30 to 45/70. I try to keep my powder selection simple so I do not have a lot of powders on hand. between Unique for handgun and shotgun chores in 12 gauge and the 2400 for most of my rifle chores I can pretty much use just 2 powders though I do use 4 now. In a pinch the 2400 works well with my 410 loads too though now I have switched to Lil gun for the 410 and I use IMR 064 for my 6.5x55. I do not use any filler and never will and my loads are more than accurate and satisfactory.

[btroj]

next question why use pitola powder in a rifle case???
use a rifle powder no filler plenty of reloading data ....
if ya want to plink and shoot cheap get yourself a 22 rf
that case could easily swallow a double charge of that powder and that would not be good
best o luck

I use pistol powders most of the time in my 45-70. I don't want the extra velocity and recoil the rifle powders give.

I have a 22 to plink with, I prefer to shoot what I use for hunting. It makes me much more confident when in the field.

Pistol powders have been used for many decades for reduced loads in many rifle cartridges. Yes, a double charge is a possibility. So is being struck by a meteor. Pay proper attention when loading and the risk of a double charge is minimized.

[John Taylor]

I have converted more than a few Marlins to shorter cartridges and welding the lever or carrier is a common thing to change the timing. The older marlin ( 1881) was real touchy about cartridge length and would jam easy if the cartridge was a little short. The 1886 Winchester used a cartridge stop as did all the later Winchesters. IMHO the Marlins run a bit smoother than the Winchester.

[jtaylor1960]

Is the gun a newer model?I had a similar problem in my 338 MX.Even without firing it the cartridge would slide out of the tube and cause a jam.I replaced the magazine spring with a stiffer one wich seemed to fix the problem.