arg! Luck ran out again (and again.) (ultradot related)

[Whiterabbit]

I got my ultradot back. "no problem found" with the 'does not hold zero' issue. They included some targets to prove it, two printed targets with 10 round groups, looks like a 22 or an air rifle, and the group size is 2". Since when does a 2" group prove an accurate anything?

Everything else appears to be fixed or "in spec" (minor things I don't care about like debris inside the tube that doesn't bother me, but they say was "in spec")

So, fine. I'll remount and test again. Double checking my BFR instruction guide, it specifically states tighten the base screws as tight as possible because they are hardened screws and can take it. Well, it can't take 40 in-lb, cause that's what I set my new torque wrench to and sheared the hardened screw in the stopped hole for the rear sight. *&$%! . I've never drilled out a hardened screw. Now I have a hardened screw loctited into a stopped hole of tight dimension. I don't have a vise capable of holding my gun to the mill table.

My luck just seems to be running out. repeatedly.

[Whiterabbit]

I can mount my wood vise to the mill table and spray adhesive closed cell foam to hold the barrel of the gun. The rubber grip base would sit on the mill table directly and I could use this to position the screw hole for the center punch/center drill/drill bit.

I think this is my only hope? But really ghetto.

[subsonic]

Ghetto works pretty often.

Maybe try hitting that hardened screw with a sharp punch and a hammer and see if you can just crumble/pick it out of there without *****ing the threads?

Alternatively, hold a hot soldering iron on the screw nub to loosen the loctite and then simply turn it out (no torque on it anymore) with a flat screwdriver, punch, or other implement of destruction.

[Whiterabbit]

will definitely try.

Do you guys know the thread pitch of that screw? google is coming up empty for repeated searches. 3-48? 3-56? I have a 3-48 tap right here I'm gonna steal for the weekend if it's the right size.

[375RUGER]

So what size is the screw? 40 in-lb is the recommend torque for a #8 screw. If you were trying to tighten anything smaller than that all you were going to accomplish was to see how much it takes to break it. If you're going to use a torque wrench then you should have some idea of what each size fastener will take. If those screws had been installed before, when they are that small they get weak each time you torque them down. I replace #6 and smaller after only 2 torque sequences. #8s and larger can go longer and it depends on what I'm holding with them.

Center punch the screw and start with the smallest drill you have. Use new drills, a dull drill will only agrivate the situation more. If it is a hardened screw you may need more than one drill cause they dull fast in hard material. Craftman makes a tap out set for small screws. This and a little heat is what I would try first after I got a pilot hole drilled. The craftsman set is worth the money and has saved my but a few times, but not for gun related stuff.
Is this drilling into the frame of the BFR?

[375RUGER]

A number 3 screw??? You've got to be kidding. You will only want to put about 10in-lb on it.

[Whiterabbit]

So much for BFR's directions. Thanks for the corrections on torque. The warne torque wrench is fixed at 25 in-lb and those screws are way smaller and the BFR screws were supposed to be hardened and the BFR guide says go hard on them. Clearly that logical path was incorrect and I appreciate the input on that front!

Fortunately I didn't compound my mistake by using permanent loctite, So I hope the center punch will be enough to pull it and if not, standard drill bits.

[Whiterabbit]

OK, some info. I made this molehill into a mountain and I appreciate your guys input on this. Either my mill is more powerful than I realize, it's easier to extract a hardened screw than I realized, or that screw wasn't hardened. It popped right out. I hit it with the center punch, then drilled it with a center drill, then a couple taps on a torx bit and I was able to put a sufficient depression in the hole to remove it. Came right out, actually.

threads appear to be #4-48. odd size. Local gun shop didn't have a replacement. I'll hit it again on Tuesday when I come back from a family trip.

Thanks for holding my hand while I was crying :oops: . Lesson learned.

[Muskyjerk]

Glad things are turning around for you.

Which ultra dot do you have?

Two inches Is a little big for say 12 yards but I am sure the guys are just looking for a big swing. For all you know that could be a fifty yard group, and with a 3 MOA dot that's a big blob of red on the target. Hope it all works out for you.

[subsonic]

Good job!

The screws in mine are bigger than #4. I'd wager #8, maybe #10. Maybe 32 TPI?

For future reference. there are torque charts on the net by screw size, material and thread pitch.

[RobsTV]

I got my ultradot back. "no problem found" with the 'does not hold zero' issue. They included some targets to prove it, two printed targets with 10 round groups, looks like a 22 or an air rifle, and the group size is 2". Since when does a 2" group prove an accurate anything?
.....

The current Ultra Dot service center does not do any in house live fire testing. Must go to a gun range to test, which is not normally done every day (once a week? every other week? and nothing local or near lake panasoffkee). So perhaps the small holes were made with something that they could shoot in house, like an airgun? Just guessing, but recent experience with them left a lot of questions in my mind.

[dmize]

Heres the secret to your screw removal. When you break a screw the way you did,you twist it apart. When it breaks like that the screw is just sitting in the threads and will turn out. Cross threaded or bottomed out screws are the ones that will eat your lunch.

[44man]

The screw should turn out with a pick. I have used a dental burr to cut a slot in them too.
Torque is WRONG for base screws. Use Loc-Tite and when tight with a screwdriver, add turn to the handle with your hand and smack the handle with a small hammer. THAT IS ALL! SMALL HAMMER FOR SHOCK.
If I remember the screws are 8-40. They must be hardened screws.
Yes, I have found POI changes with adjustable dot sizes and shapes, even other makes. It is why I buy a red dot with one size dot only.
Sight in with one dot and leave it there.
Here is a target with adjustable pictures.

[ole 5 hole group]

As for Loc-tite, I'd recommend purple only - #222, as blue sometimes just takes a hard set and will cause a lot of unnecesssary grief.

[bobthenailer]

I have also experinced POI change with multipule selictable dot sizes in red dot scopes some better than others but they all do it ! at short range less than 25 yards it seemes to work ok but beyoud its something else to go wrong or break.
Ive have or had veriable dot size scopes from Tasco - 6 , Redfield - 2 & Weaver - 1

[Whiterabbit]

Well, I lucked out and a local shop had a screw in their parts bin for me. So it's back together and ready for testing again. We'll see.

[Whiterabbit]

OK, it's game over for this ultradot. Finally got a chance to take it out again and I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside with it. Maybe it was a bad day, maybe it was me. (though I never shot so well with the 357 max or the muzzleloader)

This ultradot is trash. I'm thinking about sending it back to the factory one way with a note letting them know they can keep it.

I'm gonna start a new thread or two asking about the leupold scopes, I see a 2x or a variable in my future.

[Plate plinker]

Yep, spend some money and you won't be disappointed. I find cheap is cheap.

[44man]

I had so much trouble with the base on my .475 BFR coming loose that I steel bedded the base to the gun and even glass bedded the screws in. Yes I have a one piece gun and base. ;)
No trouble with the 45-70 or .500 JRH.
The .475 has a sharp, high torque recoil. The gun would turn under the Ultra Dot. I still need to go to 3 rings instead of 2 Warne rings.
I have 4 Ultra Dot 30mm scopes with a fixed dot and have had no problems.
Now if you want a list of stuff I broke on revolvers it would take a few pages.

[Whiterabbit]

That wouldn't explain why I was able to group tight with a 1x RIFLEscope on the same base. I thought it might be base whip so I even mounted the UD right over the base screws this time. I've done everything I can think of trying (include send back to the factory for repair!) And I can not figure out why UD group sizes are 2x irons and maybe 8x what I was able to do with a 1x riflescope.

I don't need a list of what broke, just a list of what didn't, besides the UD. I'd prefer a 1x pistolscope but I'm not aware of one.

[jh45gun]

For what it is worth I have shot quite a few red dots and did not like them they never seemed to group well for me and yea I know the dot size has a lot to do with it. I bought a Bushnell Trophy Red Dot sight and mounted it on my S&W 22 A and I finally found a red dot that grouped and shot well. I would buy an other Trophy with out hesitation.

[Whiterabbit]

Does dot size have anything to do with it? I use standard targets that have a huge black dot for the 8 9 and X rings. I just line up the dots. The red goes in the middle of the black and just fits so I can line up till I see a clear black ring around the red dot. I should be lined up every time.

It was my understanding that the human brain is very good at aligning concentric circles.

Regardless of dot size, as long as that black circle in the target were a smidge bigger I would be good to go, right? Align circles and shoot. That shouldn't affect group size, right?

[44man]

That wouldn't explain why I was able to group tight with a 1x RIFLEscope on the same base. I thought it might be base whip so I even mounted the UD right over the base screws this time. I've done everything I can think of trying (include send back to the factory for repair!) And I can not figure out why UD group sizes are 2x irons and maybe 8x what I was able to do with a 1x riflescope.

I don't need a list of what broke, just a list of what didn't, besides the UD. I'd prefer a 1x pistolscope but I'm not aware of one.
That is 100% the truth. A 1X scope is best of all. Even 2X is crazy.
Base whip is real but if it goes back to the same position you will not notice. Some bases bend.
I can't explain what you have but the U.D. has been my best. I can not say I trust all of them but it is an average.
You will not believe what I did to a Burris tube on just a .44.
It is the horrendous force on any scope from a revolver that makes stuff fail.
I have taken red dots apart to repair, not U.D. because they are TIGHT. They are simple but depend on a rubber bushing at the front of the inner tube for movement. The diode should not move, it is solid at the rear. When you adjust, the rubber flexes. It is tough and a darn good fit. I think the tube is cemented to it. There is nothing to go out of whack there but I have had the front prizm pop out on cheap ones. I steel bedded them back in. I had a Bushnell go crazy on my .44 but could not find anything wrong inside. The lens was still in place. The diode and rubber looked good. I am at a loss to explain.
Now the diode? Has it come loose? It has a glue to hold it. I need to see but we are talking a thousandths of an inch movement. Yeah, maybe the diode shifts.
The ones with different pictures have a mask drop in front of the diode. Can they be made within a hundred thousandths from one to another? Seeing how they are made I am surprised we get what we do.

[Whiterabbit]

Just to be clear, on the same OEM magnum research base, same loads, same everything minus rings (25mmQD vs 30mm fixed, but both warne maxima steel) and scope (UD matchdot vs a Nikon monach african RIFLE scope with 4" of eye relief, shot at ~24" distance from my eyes!), shot the following group:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44741&d=1338155753
This is 50 yards. The UD group I shot yesterday at 50 was probably about 8 inches from the 9 ring to the left to the 8 ring to the right, about 4" tall. That's the same load, the same base, the same everything. Just the UD on warne maxima 30mm fixed rings vs a Nikon monarch african 1x on warne 25mm QD's.

If the african had 24" of eye relief vs 4" this thread wouldn't have been started. The UD would be in the trash. But of course I can't keep a rifle scope on the BFR.

[Whiterabbit]

found this sight:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/682481/vortex-sparc-red-dot-sight-1x-20mm-2-moa-dot-with-weaver-style-mount-matte

I have a vortex scope on a rifle I really like though I haven't dealt with customer service they say they stand behind their product. Even through abuse. (they don't cover theft) Sales said the only issue they have on the books for heavy handguns is the mount loosening from improper torque, and that the sights still work OK after it comes flying off and the user re-mount with proper torque.

Nice price point and trusted brand. But holy smokes that's alot of "stuff" around the tube. I liked that the UD was pretty spartan, not only could I keep both eyes open but I could see down range with both eyes open, too. I worry this would block vision.

thoughts? I can't seem to find an etched reticle 1x besides brands I wouldn't run (burris).

----

leupold prismatic: expensive and eye relief issue. no good.
leupold scope: larger than I want, more magnification than I'd prefer.
vortex strike fire: same as sparc but bigger.
Sightron UD copy: unknown brand, dunno.

[subsonic]

In your shoes, I'd buy a new UD30. I know you already have one you don't trust, but if the 2nd one fails, you have a warranty on it. There are enough of us with good ones that you are the odd man out. I have not seen that the other red dots hold up any better, and are usually more fragile.

If you are willing, send me that UD and I'll look at it and try it on a known gun/mounts to rule out everything else. You can probably flat rate it to me for $5.95

[Whiterabbit]

You can try it if you want, no problem. I'm just going to send it back to the factory on a one way trip otherwise.

If I get a warranty, whats to say they don't just send it back and say it's in spec? I sent it with multiple issues. They fixed the detent issue, then said the accuracy was in spec and the debris in the tube was in spec. FYI the spec for debris in the tube is not zero, it's greater than zero. Accuracy spec is worse than BFR guarantees from the factory.

PM is sent your way. Is my gun and mount unknown? I can hit the X ring pretty reliably with a riflescope as per above...

[subsonic]

Just trying to help you out. I think having the multiple reticles adds one more thing that can go wrong. Just why I don't like power windows in my vehicles.

It could be an eye thing too. My wife CANNOT shoot a red dot.

[Whiterabbit]

might be an eye thing. Folks usually complain of oddball dot issues though when it is the eye. My dot is nice and round, no ghosts, comet tails, etc.

Does your wife see a nice round clear dot?

[subsonic]

She sees a round dot, but for some reason can't hit anything with it. She says the only way she can see the dot is low in the tube, but it is round and clear when adjusted to the right brightness. I have watched her stack .38s into little clutsters at 15yds with the irons on her M28, and then miss soda cans at 7yds with my MKII with a red-dot on it. Take the red dot off, and she shoots through the same hole in the can! She has astigmatism and some other eye issues.

Last season when Top-Shot was on she said she wanted to try if they have a "family" or "couples" Top Shot! :Fire: I told her we'd both loose, cause neither of us can hit anything at all with a shotgun! :(

[Whiterabbit]

heh. :)

well, I can see the dot everywhere, no problem. I always try to center the dot in the tube (at any range) cause I know shorter than 50 yards this thing is WAY sensitive to parallax.

[44man]

Zero parallax with no magnification. The dot can be anywhere in the tube. I have tested and never stopped hitting the same POI.
No focus with red dots so eyes can mess it up.
I have an OLD, OLD Leupold 4X that is amazing on any revolver but I can't hunt with it.
As my glasses get older I can't see a sharp dot anymore but still hit.
my friend sees a star but still hits deer to 150 yards with a SRH.
I do not trust a red dot with a mask that goes in front of the diode to change pictures.
I would prefer a 1X scope like the old Weaver but magnification and light transmission to the eye makes scopes today useless for hunting. Too much power unless you have full daylight.
If I just shot target I would have a scope.
A simple Ultra Dot or a small, light, low power scope is best.
The plain Jane Ultra Dot will take any recoil over any other ever made.

[Whiterabbit]

when you are way closer than 50 yards there IS parallax. Easy to test. Place the gun in a rest or on the table and look through the sight without touching the gun. you KNOW the gun is aimed at the exact same spot, but if the sight distance is a few yards, that dot is ALL over the place. It takes going out to a farther distance to eliminate the error.

That's all I'm saying. I'm definitely not saying it's an issue at even 25 yards per-se, but subsonic mentioned wife at 7 yards. :)

[subsonic]

My wife has problems with rifle scopes too. Likes them up high for some reason and can't see through them when I set up a rifle for a good cheek weld.

[44man]

when you are way closer than 50 yards there IS parallax. Easy to test. Place the gun in a rest or on the table and look through the sight without touching the gun. you KNOW the gun is aimed at the exact same spot, but if the sight distance is a few yards, that dot is ALL over the place. It takes going out to a farther distance to eliminate the error.

That's all I'm saying. I'm definitely not saying it's an issue at even 25 yards per-se, but subsonic mentioned wife at 7 yards. :)
It LOOKS that way but does not change where you hit. I seen it and is why I tested. I thought I was crazy to see it.
Now a scope with magnification is set to one distance and as distance increases or decreases it must be adjusted for it at all distances.
It is where the the focal plane falls exactly to the reticle. Distance from the target will move the primary image to some other distance from the reticle. But keep the eye centered and you don't have parallax. If the primary image falls exactly to the reticle you can move your eye all over.
This can not happen with a red dot. You have no lenses or inverting lenses or changes in the focal plane. You have just plain glass except for the glass that the diode image is on so you can see it. It is not a projection or inversion. The dot and picture are in the same place from 1 foot to 1000 yards.
Simple terms. You do not look through a scope, you look at the image it projects. You look through a red dot like a window.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't understand. With the pistol untouched, the POI will not change, period. But move your head and the dot in the tube (at very short distances) will move ALL OVER the place.

This is only for very short distances. (<25y)

[44man]

I don't understand. With the pistol untouched, the POI will not change, period. But move your head and the dot in the tube (at very short distances) will move ALL OVER the place.

This is only for very short distances. (<25y)
It is just what you see. Head games. The boolit will still go to the dot to the same POI.
Yeah, crazy! I know.
Put a dot on your window and walk back and forth. The dot will point to all other places but the dot and window have not moved.

[Whiterabbit]

I'm not explaining it right.

If the pistol is aimed at bullseye (very close targets only), and never moves, the pistol hits X ring every time. Look through the red dot and center the dot in the tube, the dot is pointed at the X ring.

Move your head to the side, dot is not in the center of the tube, the bullet will STILL pass through the X ring, but the dot is pointed at the 8 ring. POA and POI are not aligned. (short distance only).

------------------

So at short distances, my point is that moving the head will result in the shooter moving the POI by accident cause the POA is different.

[44man]

I'm not explaining it right.

If the pistol is aimed at bullseye (very close targets only), and never moves, the pistol hits X ring every time. Look through the red dot and center the dot in the tube, the dot is pointed at the X ring.

Move your head to the side, dot is not in the center of the tube, the bullet will STILL pass through the X ring, but the dot is pointed at the 8 ring. POA and POI are not aligned. (short distance only).

------------------

So at short distances, my point is that moving the head will result in the shooter moving the POI by accident cause the POA is different.
Give me a chance to set up and look at it.

[Whiterabbit]

By the way, UD said "no problem found" when I complained about the wandering zero. They said they sent proof. Two targets that showed the zero did not wander. The targets are attached to this post.

A solid 2" group. :-| They even dotted the "t" in "protargets" with a hole, if you guys missed the "flyer" 4 inches low.

[44man]

I would tend to call the flier as it is, gun, load or shooter.

[jh45gun]

Red dot sights are not going to be as accurate as a scope that is the nature of them they are designed to get on target fast and be accurate enough to place your shot with in reason. You want pin point accuracy use a scope. Which you have already found out. Only red dot sights that would be really accurate are the ones with the 1 moa dot which are not cheap. From what I see doing a check the Ultra Dot uses a 4 moa dot your not going to get pin point accuracy with that sight.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't want to get into "inherent hardware accuracy potential" differences between a 1x scope and a red dot. Nor do I want to discuss the "inherent hardware accuracy potential" differences between a 1 moa dot, a 4 moa dot, or "inaccuracy" that "may" result by using a scope with a reticle like this:

http://www.bearbasin.com/leupold-target-dot.jpg

Since it also has a dot of a finite size.

Thanks!

[44man]

I have a scope with a dot so large it is worse then a 4 min red dot! :groner:
Got it free so I will not complain.
Vision and choice of target will show all are accurate.
I still say a 3 dimensional target like a can is better for the dots then paper.
I wish the dots were green instead of red too.

[jh45gun]

I have a scope with a dot so large it is worse then a 4 min red dot! :groner:
Got it free so I will not complain.
Vision and choice of target will show all are accurate.
I still say a 3 dimensional target like a can is better for the dots then paper.
I wish the dots were green instead of red too.

They make Green Dots also, I have one made by Tru Glo. I have not put it on anything yet though. I bought it used for 20 dollars which is about half price so I figured I would grab it for a spare. They also make dot sights that can be switched from Red to Green.

[Whiterabbit]

the vortex has a green dot available, it just has so much additional baggage around that tube!

[subsonic]

the vortex has a green dot available, it just has so much additional baggage around that tube!


I had a Vortex Strike fire with red/green dots. It was fun and worked pretty well on my AR, but I switched to a Millet DMS 1-4x that seemed like a better fit for my uses. I'd be afraid to use it on a heavy kicking revolver since you can only use 1 ring.

[44man]

Too much baggage and poor mount systems.
I look at all of them and so many I would never put on a revolver. Even some $500 stuff has mounts only good for a .223!
A revolver is a destructive device! :veryconfu